Mother seeks girl's hysterectomy

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Mother seeks girl's hysterectomy

Postby Freyja » Sun Oct 07, 2007 10:10 pm UTC

The mother of a severely disabled teenager has asked doctors to give her daughter a hysterectomy to stop her from starting menstruation.

You can find the rest of the article here.

This raises the question: What would you do?

Personally, i have to say that if i were faced with that decision, my choice would depend on the level of the girl's disability. It's a difficult decision to make. What are your thoughts?
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Re: Mother seeks girl's hysterectomy

Postby Alisto » Sun Oct 07, 2007 10:25 pm UTC

Do it. The girl has nothing to lose by having the procedure and everything to gain. I cannot think of a single convincing argument to the contrary.
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Re: Mother seeks girl's hysterectomy

Postby theonemephisto » Sun Oct 07, 2007 11:04 pm UTC

Alisto wrote:Do it. The girl has nothing to lose by having the procedure and everything to gain. I cannot think of a single convincing argument to the contrary.

I'm all for it assuming that she has a mental disability bad enough to warrant it.

However, you have to be extremely careful that this doesn't set a precedent for other disabled children. We don't want to reach a point where disabled children are actually being sterilized when they don't need to be. If they decide to do it, they have to be careful that they don't set off down tat slippery slope.

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Re: Mother seeks girl's hysterectomy

Postby 22/7 » Sun Oct 07, 2007 11:12 pm UTC

theonemephisto wrote:
Alisto wrote:Do it. The girl has nothing to lose by having the procedure and everything to gain. I cannot think of a single convincing argument to the contrary.

I'm all for it assuming that she has a mental disability bad enough to warrant it.

However, you have to be extremely careful that this doesn't set a precedent for other disabled children. We don't want to reach a point where disabled children are actually being sterilized when they don't need to be. If they decide to do it, they have to be careful that they don't set off down tat slippery slope.


Doing it without setting a precedent can't actually be done. Either way, if someone with a disability has a hysterectomy and is incapable of giving consent it will set a precedent.

Here are a couple of my issues with this guy from, Scope I think?, saying that it shouldn't be done.

1. A doctor has said, I'm behind this and am convinced that it's in her best interest, and the non-doctor (I'm assuming this, but it seems like it would have been important enough for the article to have mentioned if he was an MD) is saying, "it'll be really painful and shouldn't be done."

2. I don't see how it's an issue of reproductive rights, as I cannot see a situation where she could have consensual sex or go to a clinic and get a fertilized egg planted in her. If she cannot consent to having the hysterectomy, how can she consent to sex or having children?
Totally not a hypothetical...

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Re: Mother seeks girl's hysterectomy

Postby Insignificant Deifaction » Sun Oct 07, 2007 11:21 pm UTC

This doesn't sit well with me, I hate the idea of doing anything permanent without consent of the patient, and I don't think guardians should have authority over the procedures, but here we have a case where there competence of the patient is compromised...

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Re: Mother seeks girl's hysterectomy

Postby Angelene » Sun Oct 07, 2007 11:22 pm UTC

The issue lies in who is in the best possible position to judge what is in the best interests of the individual. Is it possible that the mother would be biased? As the child's carer surely her life will be made easier if her daughter isn't menstruating.

With regards to the law, no case can be considered in a vacuum, while each must be considered on its merits, so must the long term implications of such decisions be considered. The surgery is not actually necessary, but it would certainly be convenient...that's a dangerous precedent to set.
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Re: Mother seeks girl's hysterectomy

Postby 22/7 » Sun Oct 07, 2007 11:34 pm UTC

CaraInFrames wrote:The surgery is not actually necessary, but it would certainly be convenient...that's a dangerous precedent to set.


This is a dangerous road to walk down, if we start looking at what is "necessary" and what is "convenient".
Totally not a hypothetical...

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Re: Mother seeks girl's hysterectomy

Postby ascendingPig » Mon Oct 08, 2007 12:56 am UTC

CaraInFrames wrote:The surgery is not actually necessary, but it would certainly be convenient...that's a dangerous precedent to set.

Yes, but if, say, I had a herniated disk, and my doctor told me that I would be in constant pain unless I surgically fixed it, and then I somehow lost my ability to communicate and someone else had to decide whether I could ever walk comfortably again, the operation wouldn't be necessary, either. But convenient? Yes, it would be convenient to be able to walk around without collapsing.

Just as it would be convenient for the girl to be easily handled in public, and never run around crashing into shopping carts while pregnant and too big to be controlled. Just as it would be convenient for her parents to not be ashamed of having to shepherd a grown woman in a crowd.

I personally could never raise a mentally disabled child. I would never get through a year. I would become frustrated and throw it in a dumpster or something. The girl's parents have actually brought her to this point, and should not be expected to handle any greater burden than they have thus far.
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Re: Mother seeks girl's hysterectomy

Postby 22/7 » Mon Oct 08, 2007 1:59 am UTC

ascendingPig wrote:The girl's parents have actually brought her to this point, and should not be expected to handle any greater burden than they have thus far.


I get what you're saying, but I think that *this* line of thinking also sets a dangerous precedent, one that is my major issue with the way that *some* (note, some) people treat abortion. To say that this girl's parents effectively should not be expected to raise her any further or have any greater stress/burden/whatever than they have thus far is to say "ok, well, you paid your dues, you're off the hook." I think that's an exceedingly dangerous line of thinking.
Totally not a hypothetical...

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Re: Mother seeks girl's hysterectomy

Postby Angelene » Mon Oct 08, 2007 2:02 am UTC

22/7 wrote:
ascendingPig wrote:The girl's parents have actually brought her to this point, and should not be expected to handle any greater burden than they have thus far.


I get what you're saying, but I think that *this* line of thinking also sets a dangerous precedent, one that is my major issue with the way that *some* (note, some) people treat abortion. To say that this girl's parents effectively should not be expected to raise her any further or have any greater stress/burden/whatever than they have thus far is to say "ok, well, you paid your dues, you're off the hook." I think that's an exceedingly dangerous line of thinking.


I'm sure aP just meant that caring for the child is already such an arduous task, and if that workload can be lessened, or at least measures can be taken to prevent it from increasing, then it's for the benefit of all concerned.

<edit> Actually, aP, you don't seem to have a full grasp of the girl's condition, it's cerebral palsy, she's confined to a wheelchair, her disability is both developmental and physical.
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Re: Mother seeks girl's hysterectomy

Postby ascendingPig » Mon Oct 08, 2007 2:15 am UTC

CaraInFrames wrote:
22/7 wrote:
ascendingPig wrote:The girl's parents have actually brought her to this point, and should not be expected to handle any greater burden than they have thus far.


I get what you're saying, but I think that *this* line of thinking also sets a dangerous precedent, one that is my major issue with the way that *some* (note, some) people treat abortion. To say that this girl's parents effectively should not be expected to raise her any further or have any greater stress/burden/whatever than they have thus far is to say "ok, well, you paid your dues, you're off the hook." I think that's an exceedingly dangerous line of thinking.


I'm sure aP just meant that caring for the child is already such an arduous task, and if that workload can be lessened, or at least measures can be taken to prevent it from increasing, then it's for the benefit of all concerned.

<edit> Actually, aP, you don't seem to have a full grasp of the girl's condition, it's cerebral palsy, she's confined to a wheelchair, her disability is both developmental and physical.

Ah, thanks. I should read the article more thoroughly next time. :P

Nonetheless, my point still stands, and you interpreted it correctly. Anything that helps the parents, who are giving up a whole lot already just by raising a severely disabled child, is a Good Thing.
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Re: Mother seeks girl's hysterectomy

Postby 4=5 » Mon Oct 08, 2007 4:10 am UTC

I'd suport it being removed, if you have to keep the child a child I don't see a problem

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Re: Mother seeks girl's hysterectomy

Postby Bakemaster » Mon Oct 08, 2007 4:18 am UTC

Alisto wrote:Do it. The girl has nothing to lose by having the procedure and everything to gain. I cannot think of a single convincing argument to the contrary.

How about "nonzero chance of dying on the operating table"?

I think this is an odious situation (unlike bacon, EVER) and I don't think performing this operation would be ethical.
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Re: Mother seeks girl's hysterectomy

Postby Stax Kazama » Mon Oct 08, 2007 5:57 am UTC

Having a hysterectomy won't necessarily make things less complicated though. Its going to basically cause her to go into early menopause. Something about a 15 year old girl going though that doesn't really sit well with me to be perfectly honest. Not only that but she'll be more susceptible to major diseases (heart disease was one of them I think) and have to worry about hormone imbalances for the rest of her life (and possibly go through hormone therapy which has its own side effects and risks).
Yeah, she might not be comfortable having Shark Week but really, who is? I'm sure as hell not. I'm sure there are a hell of a lot of other disabled people in her condition or worse that have had to deal with it. I'm not trying to sound too heartless here so sorry if I'm coming off that way, it just seems like it'll mainly make things easier for her parents to take care of her and not have to deal with it to me.
Besides, what if this sets a trend for parents of disabled children wanting to just start having their kids have this procedure? I know its been mentioned but I think it would just cause a huge argument. I just don't really agree with it.

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Re: Mother seeks girl's hysterectomy

Postby Flying Betty » Mon Oct 08, 2007 6:29 am UTC

I think the problem isn't as much in this case as the precedent it sets. I can absolutely understand why her parents would want this done. Assuming there's no chance of her ever being able to consent to sex, she will never get pregnant of her own volition. We also have to assume that she'll never be able to function highly enough not to be completely dependent on her guardians. Therefore, it is their right to decide what's best to her, and to consent to this. No problems here.

But now that sterilization is acceptable for guardians to decide, will this trickle down to people with more control over their lives being goaded into this because it's for their own good?

Not only that, but the reason the mother wants this done is so that the periods don't upset her daughter. Somehow I don't think that a little bit of bleeding is less upsetting than a MAJOR FUCKING SURGERY. Even if it can be done laparoscopically, a hysterectomy is a big deal. Waking up from general anesthesia is not fun, and not being able to sit for two months is also not fun. Has anyone considered putting her on back to back birth control pills? No periods (minus maybe a little spotting), no surgery, reversible.

I don't think this should necessarily be illegal, but I don't think that a guardian approved hysterectomy is the best first choice, and could set a dangerous precedent for other cases.
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Re: Mother seeks girl's hysterectomy

Postby Malice » Mon Oct 08, 2007 9:09 am UTC

Flying Betty wrote:Not only that, but the reason the mother wants this done is so that the periods don't upset her daughter. Somehow I don't think that a little bit of bleeding is less upsetting than a MAJOR FUCKING SURGERY. Even if it can be done laparoscopically, a hysterectomy is a big deal. Waking up from general anesthesia is not fun, and not being able to sit for two months is also not fun. Has anyone considered putting her on back to back birth control pills? No periods (minus maybe a little spotting), no surgery, reversible.


Having never done either, I'm pretty sure that one major surgery is less troublesome than bleeding a few days every month for decades.

And birth control pills have their side effects, too.
And there's no reason for it to be reversible. This girl, barring some miracle cure, isn't ever going to get better.
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Re: Mother seeks girl's hysterectomy

Postby ascendingPig » Mon Oct 08, 2007 4:25 pm UTC

What's good for the parents is still an issue, and I don't blame them for having an aversion to sticking tampons up their own child's bleeding orifice.
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Re: Mother seeks girl's hysterectomy

Postby jtniehof » Mon Oct 08, 2007 4:39 pm UTC

theonemephisto wrote: We don't want to reach a point where disabled children are actually being sterilized when they don't need to be.

Too late. I agree we don't want to go back there, but let's not forget history, either.

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Re: Mother seeks girl's hysterectomy

Postby Insignificant Deifaction » Mon Oct 08, 2007 8:28 pm UTC

Actually, that there may be a cure in the future is a DAMN good reason not to do it. Just adding that.
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Re: Mother seeks girl's hysterectomy

Postby Bakemaster » Mon Oct 08, 2007 9:37 pm UTC

Stax Kazama wrote:Its going to basically cause her to go into early menopause.

Citation needed. My mother had a hysterectomy years ago and tells me she never went through menopause that she's aware.
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Re: Mother seeks girl's hysterectomy

Postby TheStranger » Mon Oct 08, 2007 10:04 pm UTC

Insignificant Deification wrote:Actually, that there may be a cure in the future is a DAMN good reason not to do it. Just adding that.


A cure for such a severe case is about as likely as a cure for decapitation.
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Re: Mother seeks girl's hysterectomy

Postby Angelene » Mon Oct 08, 2007 10:42 pm UTC

As far as I'm aware, there's no possibly cure for brain damage that's occurred in utero.
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Re: Mother seeks girl's hysterectomy

Postby Stax Kazama » Tue Oct 09, 2007 1:25 am UTC

Bakemaster wrote:
Stax Kazama wrote:Its going to basically cause her to go into early menopause.

Citation needed. My mother had a hysterectomy years ago and tells me she never went through menopause that she's aware.



Really? In that case it may depend on the type of hysterectomy it is then. I remember reading in a few different sites about women going through surgically induced menopause after having the procedure. I'm actually heading out in a few minutes but I'll see if I can't do a bit more research and try to find the info again and see exactly what type it was.

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Re: Mother seeks girl's hysterectomy

Postby VannA » Tue Oct 09, 2007 3:19 am UTC

If the girl in question has been found legally incapable of taking care of her own affairs, due to mental disability, then I have no issue with this.

You essentially have a human being with the sentinence of a small child.. or a dog. And we put our pets through sterilisation all the time.

Insignificant Deification wrote:Actually, that there may be a cure in the future is a DAMN good reason not to do it. Just adding that.


Anything that can re-grow and re-create those segments of the brain, and cure the physiological damage, will also be able to regrow her uterus.
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Re: Mother seeks girl's hysterectomy

Postby Victorkm » Tue Oct 09, 2007 1:35 pm UTC

This really sounds like a Bio-Ethics concern. And Bioethics is a really bad thing, at least if I am to believe Dean Koontz

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Re: Mother seeks girl's hysterectomy

Postby cathrl » Tue Oct 09, 2007 8:36 pm UTC

She's got a mental age of eighteen months,that's just about old enough to be self-aware. Making her feel lousy for three so days every month for the next ever is pretty mean, quite apart from it being yet one more aspect of personal hygiene she can't deal with herself.

Assuming the surgeon feels it can be done without major risk of complications, or a long and painful recovery process, if she was my child I'd want it done. I read they are also considering doing an appendectomy at the same time, due to her inability to report early symptoms should she get appendicitis and the risk of septicaemia. At some point she ought to have the right to have someone look at the long term picture for her, and I think this is what her mum's doing right now.

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Re: Mother seeks girl's hysterectomy

Postby Insignificant Deifaction » Wed Oct 10, 2007 2:50 am UTC

@VannA: But you'll still have to regrow the uterus, which will be damn expensive, and she will still have any problems that occurred from having to have things done manually.
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Re: Mother seeks girl's hysterectomy

Postby TheStranger » Wed Oct 10, 2007 10:40 am UTC

Insignificant Deification wrote:@VannA: But you'll still have to regrow the uterus, which will be damn expensive, and she will still have any problems that occurred from having to have things done manually.


The point is that we cannot even begin to perform such a task. Complete regeneration of human tissue is still only speculation.
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Re: Mother seeks girl's hysterectomy

Postby Insignificant Deifaction » Wed Oct 10, 2007 1:54 pm UTC

I'm not going to get into arguing about it, but the future is always something to think about, both her personal future as a girl who has had her uterus removed, and possible new things in the distant future.
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Re: Mother seeks girl's hysterectomy

Postby 22/7 » Wed Oct 10, 2007 9:16 pm UTC

Just to clarify, what kind of "personal future" are we considering?
Totally not a hypothetical...

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Re: Mother seeks girl's hysterectomy

Postby Angelene » Wed Oct 10, 2007 9:58 pm UTC

I'd imagine, though, that any kind of future that could repair what was previously considered irreparable brain damage would be able to find some way to allow her to reproduce sans uterus.
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Re: Mother seeks girl's hysterectomy

Postby 22/7 » Wed Oct 10, 2007 10:03 pm UTC

One would assume. For me, potential reproductive rights 10, 20, 30 years down the road aren't a huge issue for someone who will probably never mentally or emotionally develop beyond the age of 18-24 months, especially since I don't see how someone in that position can consent to having such a procedure done (like artificial insemination and extrauteral embryo development).

That's right, extrauteral.
Totally not a hypothetical...

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Re: Mother seeks girl's hysterectomy

Postby Angelene » Wed Oct 10, 2007 10:08 pm UTC

Ah, isn't science grand. I'm still oh so conflicted though I think it would possibly do more good than harm, really. If this case could be considered on its own merits, in a legal vacuum then I reckon I'd be all for it...as it is, it's a bit too dangerous in the sense of setting a precedent. Slippery slopes etc.
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Re: Mother seeks girl's hysterectomy

Postby miraidesuka » Wed Oct 10, 2007 10:33 pm UTC

@ID: If her Cerebral Palsy is bad enough, odds are she won't live long enough to see treatment, it'd only take one really good seizure. OTOH if she does live long enough for a cure for Cerebral Palsy to be discovered -- which would basically involve inducing her brain to regenerate -- regenerating her uterus would be a trivial matter.

If someone does discover a cure though, she'd still have to go through at least 13 years of mental development -- realistically much more. Which is a completely different problem.

In regards to precedent setting. Medicine is not law. Issues like this where there's no definite procedure are not always solved in the same way. Usually, patients have this thing called 'choice', or their guardians do, and the days of non-informed consent are as good as over in the western world. This woman knows what she's putting her daughter through, and has obviously done some long hard thinking about it. She's rightly concluded that since there is no way for her child to have a 'normal' life, the next best thing to do for her daughter is to ease the stresses on her child's life the best she can, and if that means never going through puberty, so be it.

In relation to the rest of this problem. This shouldn't be a news item. This girl and her mother should have some form of privacy while they're going through their difficult lives. The mother has an incredibly difficult choice to make. The girl probably doesn't know the meaning of the word 'choice' let alone the word 'period'. We're talking about someone who has the mental development of a toddler at best and a baby at worst. To 'force' her to go through puberty (which is what the disabled advocacy group wants to do) exponentially worsens the problem for everyone involved (except for the advocacy group, which conveniently has nothing to lose). Furthermore, a person not qualified in medical science and not related to the patient by blood should not be determining what's in 'the best interests' of this girl in the first place. That means you, me, and everyone here not a board certified M.D. and it certainly means that special interest group asshole.

The parallels between this and the Schivo case are kinda scary. Ultimatly it should be left up to those intimatly involved in the case, and everyone else should politely butt out.
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Re: Mother seeks girl's hysterectomy

Postby Angelene » Wed Oct 10, 2007 10:38 pm UTC

miraidesuka wrote:
In regards to precedent setting. Medicine is not law. Issues like this where there's no definite procedure are not always solved in the same way. Usually, patients have this thing called 'choice', or their guardians do, and the days of non-informed consent are as good as over in the western world. This woman knows what she's putting her daughter through, and has obviously done some long hard thinking about it. She's rightly concluded that since there is no way for her child to have a 'normal' life, the next best thing to do for her daughter is to ease the stresses on her child's life the best she can, and if that means never going through puberty, so be it.


I'm not sure what your point is in this respect, and I'm repeating myself by saying this, but no case can be considered in a vacuum, and a judge will consider the possible legal repercussions of his decision in such a case...it's all well and good to say that this is a private matter, but with the child being incapable of consenting herself, that gives her mother an awful lot of potential power, which perhaps could be used in a manner which doesn't consider the child's best interest. Whether or not the law should intervene here is the crux of the matter at hand, and I'm not so arrogant as to assume I know the answer.
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Re: Mother seeks girl's hysterectomy

Postby miraidesuka » Wed Oct 10, 2007 10:56 pm UTC

CaraInFrames wrote:
miraidesuka wrote:
In regards to precedent setting. Medicine is not law. Issues like this where there's no definite procedure are not always solved in the same way. Usually, patients have this thing called 'choice', or their guardians do, and the days of non-informed consent are as good as over in the western world. This woman knows what she's putting her daughter through, and has obviously done some long hard thinking about it. She's rightly concluded that since there is no way for her child to have a 'normal' life, the next best thing to do for her daughter is to ease the stresses on her child's life the best she can, and if that means never going through puberty, so be it.


I'm not sure what your point is in this respect, and I'm repeating myself by saying this, but no case can be considered in a vacuum, and a judge will consider the possible legal repercussions of his decision in such a case...it's all well and good to say that this is a private matter, but with the child being incapable of consenting herself, that gives her mother an awful lot of potential power, which perhaps could be used in a manner which doesn't consider the child's best interest. Whether or not the law should intervene here is the crux of the matter at hand, and I'm not so arrogant as to assume I know the answer.


Medicine must be different in the UK if they need the consent of a judge to do this procedure. To the best of my understanding, this shouldn't be something that should go to trial if all the guardianship issues are in order.

Aside from that, any medical practitioner worth going to see would understand that this is a case with very very specific circumstances, [strikeout]and wouldn't start performing hysterectomies 'for convenience'.[/strikeout] Edit: and wouldn't start performing hyesterectomies for everyone who wanted to avoid Shark Week.

I guess ultimately my point is: Any medical doctor with a brain recognizes that this is a very specific case, and any judge with one would recognize that as well. The best possible outcome would come from leaving this in the hands of the blood relatives and their medical professionals.
Last edited by miraidesuka on Wed Oct 10, 2007 11:01 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Mother seeks girl's hysterectomy

Postby Angelene » Wed Oct 10, 2007 11:00 pm UTC

miraidesuka wrote:Medicine must be different in the UK if they need the consent of a judge to do this procedure. To the best of my understanding, this shouldn't be something that should go to trial if all the guardianship issues are in order.

Aside from that, any medical practitioner worth going to see would understand that this is a case with very very specific circumstances, and wouldn't start performing hysterectomies 'for convenience'.

I guess ultimately my point is: Any medical doctor with a brain recognizes that this is a very specific case, and any judge with one would recognize that as well. The best possible outcome would come from leaving this in the hands of the blood relatives and their medical professionals.


I hope I can say this without sounding horribly condescending...but the whole essence of jurisprudence is that every case contributes to the body of law. Every single case is a 'specific case'...and anyone concerned in such will recognise as much, but that doesn't stop cases and decisions being cited in subsequent cases where any similarity whatsoever can be drawn.
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Re: Mother seeks girl's hysterectomy

Postby miraidesuka » Wed Oct 10, 2007 11:02 pm UTC

CaraInFrames wrote:
miraidesuka wrote:Medicine must be different in the UK if they need the consent of a judge to do this procedure. To the best of my understanding, this shouldn't be something that should go to trial if all the guardianship issues are in order.

Aside from that, any medical practitioner worth going to see would understand that this is a case with very very specific circumstances, and wouldn't start performing hysterectomies 'for convenience'.

I guess ultimately my point is: Any medical doctor with a brain recognizes that this is a very specific case, and any judge with one would recognize that as well. The best possible outcome would come from leaving this in the hands of the blood relatives and their medical professionals.


I hope I can say this without sounding horribly condescending...but the whole essence of jurisprudence is that every case contributes to the body of law. Every single case is a 'specific case'...and anyone concerned in such will recognise as much, but that doesn't stop cases and decisions being cited in subsequent cases where any similarity whatsoever can be drawn.


I know, but that tends to be the fault of the lawyers, and not the doctors.
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Re: Mother seeks girl's hysterectomy

Postby Angelene » Thu Oct 11, 2007 1:49 am UTC

miraidesuka wrote:
CaraInFrames wrote:
miraidesuka wrote:Medicine must be different in the UK if they need the consent of a judge to do this procedure. To the best of my understanding, this shouldn't be something that should go to trial if all the guardianship issues are in order.

Aside from that, any medical practitioner worth going to see would understand that this is a case with very very specific circumstances, and wouldn't start performing hysterectomies 'for convenience'.

I guess ultimately my point is: Any medical doctor with a brain recognizes that this is a very specific case, and any judge with one would recognize that as well. The best possible outcome would come from leaving this in the hands of the blood relatives and their medical professionals.


I hope I can say this without sounding horribly condescending...but the whole essence of jurisprudence is that every case contributes to the body of law. Every single case is a 'specific case'...and anyone concerned in such will recognise as much, but that doesn't stop cases and decisions being cited in subsequent cases where any similarity whatsoever can be drawn.


I know, but that tends to be the fault of the lawyers, and not the doctors.


It's nothing to do with fault, or blame, it's the very nature of the law. I'm sorry but I'm really not understanding your reasoning, here.
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Re: Mother seeks girl's hysterectomy

Postby Axman » Thu Oct 11, 2007 7:46 am UTC

We don't want to reach a point where disabled children are actually being sterilized when they don't need to be. If they decide to do it, they have to be careful that they don't set off down tat slippery slope.


OK, I skipped everything after this comment. Sorry if it's come up already.

This isn't a slippery slope because it's got a check/balance system. The precedent this sets is one that involves child welfare services, medical doctors, and ethics boards. This isn't going to repeat itself without serious inquiry, on a case-by-case basis.

Push come to shove they can freeze this kid's eggs and should magic be invented and her made healthy, she can have a kid by proxy.


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