Study: Youth see Christians as judgmental, anti-gay

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Re: Study: Youth see Christians as judgmental, anti-gay

Postby e946 » Mon Oct 15, 2007 11:39 pm UTC

The problem here is how diverse christianity. If they had asked about the judgmentality or the anti-gayness or the hypocrisy of various groups, answers may have been different. for example, catholicism is most certainly anti-gay, and I'vre read that baptists tend to be very conservative, while other groups (I don't know them all but methodist seems to be one) are more open.

In any case, I would agree that a good chunk of Christianity doesn't follow the teachings of jesus anymore.

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Re: Study: Youth see Christians as judgmental, anti-gay

Postby Solt » Mon Oct 15, 2007 11:45 pm UTC

Step 1: discontent with current religions
Step 2: ???
Step 3: Prophet!


(sorry, I know that was horrible)

What I wanted to convey was what a perfect opportunity this is for the atheist viewpoint.

22/7 wrote:Totally. What I mean is that I don't like the tag of "judgmental" being thrown around, especially in reference to religion, as a negative thing. This survey reinforces that trend. I'm not saying I don't understand what it's saying, I just don't like the term being used the way that it is.


Considering the history of religion, I think this is the perfect word to throw around. Anything to remind them of the horrible things that were perpetrated in the name of their religion in the past.
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Re: Study: Youth see Christians as judgmental, anti-gay

Postby no-genius » Tue Oct 16, 2007 12:20 am UTC

idont_know12 wrote:Second, doesn't the bible itself say something to the extent that it's bad to judge your fellow man?

It's probably somewhere towards the back
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Re: Study: Youth see Christians as judgmental, anti-gay

Postby Hexadecimator » Tue Oct 16, 2007 12:30 am UTC

Solt wrote:Considering the history of religion, I think this is the perfect word to throw around. Anything to remind them of the horrible things that were perpetrated in the name of their religion in the past.
I have to agree with this one. This is primarily directed towards Catholicism, but I would personally find it hard to stomach being part of an organization that promotes/promoted violence, segregation, and discrimination in the name of brotherly love. The new pope is not doing anything to aleviate these concerns, with his "one true religion" and all that.
For Christianity (as in, the belief in following of the teachings of Christ) I would probably put different answers than those listed in the article, same for Christians and Catholics. But ask me about Catholicism, and I will agree wholeheartedly with the majority.
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Re: Study: Youth see Christians as judgmental, anti-gay

Postby Vaniver » Tue Oct 16, 2007 3:14 pm UTC

Solt wrote:Considering the history of religion, I think this is the perfect word to throw around. Anything to remind them of the horrible things that were perpetrated in the name of their religion in the past.
Alternatively, considering the history of religion, modern-day Christians are unbelievably tolerant. Calling dirty looks judgmental when the alternatives are lynchings and persecution is... silly at best.
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Re: Study: Youth see Christians as judgmental, anti-gay

Postby Belial » Tue Oct 16, 2007 3:18 pm UTC

When the rest of society has, ideally, moved past even the dirty looks, however, it is still hopelessly backward.

"Hey, but at least we're not burning people anymore!" is not much of a validation....
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Re: Study: Youth see Christians as judgmental, anti-gay

Postby Vaniver » Tue Oct 16, 2007 3:23 pm UTC

Belial wrote:When the rest of society has, ideally, moved past even the dirty looks, however, it is still hopelessly backward.

"Hey, but at least we're not burning people anymore!" is not much of a validation....
Of course. But my point is that it's bad logic to justify calling judgmental theists today by comparing them to theists centuries ago.
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Re: Study: Youth see Christians as judgmental, anti-gay

Postby Belial » Tue Oct 16, 2007 3:24 pm UTC

Fair.
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Re: Study: Youth see Christians as judgmental, anti-gay

Postby Cheese » Tue Oct 16, 2007 3:31 pm UTC

Hexadecimator wrote:The new pope is not doing anything to aleviate these concerns, with his "one true religion" and all that.

This is one of the biggest factors in my loss of faith, or failure to gain it, or whatever.
Either a religion says that it's the best and only 'true' faith, and gets a lot of negative stigma which it has to fight off in some way, or it has to say, "Okay, you guys have a point," when faced with another religion in its way. I was brought up as a Catholic, and that branch of Christianity is most definitely anti-gay and, if not 'proud of it', at least definite and unrelenting in this way. I have nothing against this view, as long as they don't start putting up posters and using megaphones to proclaim the 'wrongness' of homosexuality. I admit that I am a little homophobic myself, for reasons unknown to me (I put it down to bad experience, but that doesn't really explain anything. There's probably no acceptable reason for this dislike, and the only excuse I can come up with is "because they're weird"), but have nothing against a society including the gay.

Sorry about the rambling nature of this post, I'm finding it hard to keep a straight chain of thought going today.
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Re: Study: Youth see Christians as judgmental, anti-gay

Postby 22/7 » Tue Oct 16, 2007 4:42 pm UTC

Solt wrote:Considering the history of religion, I think this is the perfect word to throw around. Anything to remind them of the horrible things that were perpetrated in the name of their religion in the past.


Doesn't bode too well for the white Americans. Racists, all of you. Oh yeah, and you killed off the vast majority of the Native Americans and took all their land.

Or is it possible that people aren't responsible for the actions of other people hundreds and even thousands of years before they were born?
Totally not a hypothetical...

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Re: Study: Youth see Christians as judgmental, anti-gay

Postby Solt » Wed Oct 17, 2007 8:26 am UTC

Vaniver wrote:
Solt wrote:Considering the history of religion, I think this is the perfect word to throw around. Anything to remind them of the horrible things that were perpetrated in the name of their religion in the past.
Alternatively, considering the history of religion, modern-day Christians are unbelievably tolerant. Calling dirty looks judgmental when the alternatives are lynchings and persecution is... silly at best.


This is the same group of people who had a serious debate about electing a catholic president because of events that took place centuries ago. In religion, your actions haunt your descendants for a very long time.

Besides, if we look at how criminals are treated, we find sufficient precedent to justify what I'm saying: the ordinary innocent person who is not expected to commit a crime is a given a lot of freedom. The released criminal who is not expected to commit a crime (or they wouldn't have been released!) is severely limited in their freedom- they have restrictions on travel and personal trackers.

Past behavior should influence how we regard people. That's definitely something Christians believe, anyway.

22/7 wrote:Doesn't bode too well for the white Americans. Racists, all of you. Oh yeah, and you killed off the vast majority of the Native Americans and took all their land.

Or is it possible that people aren't responsible for the actions of other people hundreds and even thousands of years before they were born?


Responsible for those actions? No. Responsible for perpetuating the exact same belief system which those other people used to justify their actions? Yes, most certainly.
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Re: Study: Youth see Christians as judgmental, anti-gay

Postby 22/7 » Wed Oct 17, 2007 1:12 pm UTC

Solt wrote:
Vaniver wrote:
Solt wrote:Considering the history of religion, I think this is the perfect word to throw around. Anything to remind them of the horrible things that were perpetrated in the name of their religion in the past.
Alternatively, considering the history of religion, modern-day Christians are unbelievably tolerant. Calling dirty looks judgmental when the alternatives are lynchings and persecution is... silly at best.


This is the same group of people who had a serious debate about electing a catholic president because of events that took place centuries ago. In religion, your actions haunt your descendants for a very long time.

Besides, if we look at how criminals are treated, we find sufficient precedent to justify what I'm saying: the ordinary innocent person who is not expected to commit a crime is a given a lot of freedom. The released criminal who is not expected to commit a crime (or they wouldn't have been released!) is severely limited in their freedom- they have restrictions on travel and personal trackers.

Past behavior should influence how we regard people. That's definitely something Christians believe, anyway.


You so fluidly pass between something that a person actually did and something that someone with a trait in common did before that person came along as if they were the same thing. They are not.

solt wrote:
22/7 wrote:Doesn't bode too well for the white Americans. Racists, all of you. Oh yeah, and you killed off the vast majority of the Native Americans and took all their land.

Or is it possible that people aren't responsible for the actions of other people hundreds and even thousands of years before they were born?


Responsible for those actions? No. Responsible for perpetuating the exact same belief system which those other people used to justify their actions? Yes, most certainly.


Reread what you wrote and the previous, oh, 15 posts in this thread and then write a short report about why I'm not ok with you saying "exact same belief system." 100 words or less, it's due next Friday. 1" margins, people! 1" margins! I'll be checking with a ruler!
Totally not a hypothetical...

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Re: Study: Youth see Christians as judgmental, anti-gay

Postby Amicitia » Wed Oct 17, 2007 3:45 pm UTC

My serious take on this: youth grow up much more exposed to life, and sexuality, than in times past. Many find themselves at odds with the Christianity because they associate it with the human institution, of do's and do not's, one which seems rather estranged from such ideals as loving thy neighbor. People are likely to associate Christianity with the institution, which deplores homosexuality as a violation of Christianity.
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Re: Study: Youth see Christians as judgmental, anti-gay

Postby 22/7 » Wed Oct 17, 2007 8:08 pm UTC

Amicitia wrote:People are likely to associate Christianity with the institution, which deplores homosexuality as a violation of Christianity.


Christianity != anti-gay

If you really don't know how that can be, check out what Belial's been saying basically this entire time.
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Re: Study: Youth see Christians as judgmental, anti-gay

Postby Belial » Wed Oct 17, 2007 9:00 pm UTC

No, but many of the most vocal christians are. And insofar as they sculpt their own branch of christianity, that *branch* is.
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Re: Study: Youth see Christians as judgmental, anti-gay

Postby Cheese » Wed Oct 17, 2007 9:11 pm UTC

Are there any religious leaders/spokespeople who can say that they're liberal and completely at ease with today's world, though? If you try, you'll always find something corrupt about someone, one thing that the media are very good at doing.
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Re: Study: Youth see Christians as judgmental, anti-gay

Postby 22/7 » Wed Oct 17, 2007 9:18 pm UTC

Belial wrote:No, but many of the most vocal christians are. And insofar as they sculpt their own branch of christianity, that *branch* is.


Ehh, the most vocal Christians that are anti-gay are anti-gay. Just because they are speaking out doesn't mean they speak for their branch (I'm assuming you're meaning denomination and/or congregation?), or that their branch agrees with them. Some of them obviously do, but not all of them.

And to whoever mentioned the Methodists earlier, yeah, they're pretty relaxed when it comes to... well, just about anything actually.
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Re: Study: Youth see Christians as judgmental, anti-gay

Postby Belial » Wed Oct 17, 2007 9:25 pm UTC

Ehh, the most vocal Christians that are anti-gay are anti-gay.


Alright, let me put it another way:

I'm still waiting to see a particularly vocal *pro-gay* christian leader.

If christianity wants to counter its horrible image, it should try....ACTUALLY COUNTERING ITS HORRIBLE IMAGE.

Remaining silent in the face of people like Fallwell (may he rot in hell), Robertson, and the various senators and reps that use religion as a reason to call for anti-gay-marriage amendments, is not a winning strategy. People will not assume that, just because you didn't stand up and agree vocally, that you disagree. Silence is interpreted, wrongly or not, as agreement. It is assumed that, as a christian, you agree with everything those people are saying, you're just maybe too polite to say so.
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Re: Study: Youth see Christians as judgmental, anti-gay

Postby Cheese » Wed Oct 17, 2007 9:38 pm UTC

Most people who are pro-gay and Christian are probably afraid to speak out, on the principle that they themselves see Christianity in general as anti-gay, and they'd be chucked out/excommunicated/untrusted or whatever if they did say "Hey guys, the gay are great, honest!"
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Re: Study: Youth see Christians as judgmental, anti-gay

Postby 22/7 » Wed Oct 17, 2007 9:42 pm UTC

Belial wrote:the stuff that's just above this and with the picture of the lizard at tea time next to it


I think this may boil down to the fact that the types of Christians who have no problems with homosexuality are also the ones who are not going to come out and say "you're wrong!" on national television. When you're not very judgmental about one thing, it can bleed over into others, I suppose.
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Re: Study: Youth see Christians as judgmental, anti-gay

Postby Belial » Wed Oct 17, 2007 9:44 pm UTC

Fair. But by refusing to do that sort of thing, they're kindof resigning themselves to being painted with that brush on a mass-perception level. They can't really blame the public for perceiving them that way.
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Re: Study: Youth see Christians as judgmental, anti-gay

Postby 22/7 » Wed Oct 17, 2007 9:51 pm UTC

Certainly not, but of course we would ask the population to attempt to be open-minded and use a bit of logic, which, I admit, is neither likely nor a small request these days. Of course, if that were the case, this thread probably wouldn't exist.
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Re: Study: Youth see Christians as judgmental, anti-gay

Postby pollywog » Wed Oct 17, 2007 9:59 pm UTC

22/7 wrote:
Belial wrote:the stuff that's just above this and with the picture of the lizard at tea time next to it


Dinosaurs were reptiles, not lizards.
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Re: Study: Youth see Christians as judgmental, anti-gay

Postby Belial » Wed Oct 17, 2007 10:00 pm UTC

It's okay. I call you all rodents with trousers. Precision is not necessary with slurs.
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Re: Study: Youth see Christians as judgmental, anti-gay

Postby no-genius » Wed Oct 17, 2007 10:01 pm UTC

Cheese wrote:Most people who are pro-gay and Christian are probably afraid to speak out, on the principle that they themselves see Christianity in general as anti-gay, and they'd be chucked out/excommunicated/untrusted or whatever if they did say "Hey guys, the gay are great, honest!"

Yes, because what with all the persecution they experience on a daily basis, Christians have every reason to avoid speaking out. Who could blame them for taking the easy option? Maybe if there were more of them, they might be able to work a safety-in-numbers thing...
Surely the principle of 'my conscience tells me this is right' should over-ride any other concerns?
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Re: Study: Youth see Christians as judgmental, anti-gay

Postby Belial » Wed Oct 17, 2007 10:02 pm UTC

Not to mention that, if that were their actual reason, Jesus would call them a pussy.
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Re: Study: Youth see Christians as judgmental, anti-gay

Postby Cheese » Wed Oct 17, 2007 10:08 pm UTC

That would be a great way to bolster the belief of the masses, though...
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Re: Study: Youth see Christians as judgmental, anti-gay

Postby Vaniver » Wed Oct 17, 2007 10:16 pm UTC

Belial wrote:I'm still waiting to see a particularly vocal *pro-gay* christian leader.
I'm curious, have you been looking for them?

Because the Anglican (Episcopal) Church in the US was sort of split in two because of the majority of the church supported the inclusion of homosexuality, and they're not the only church to have done so (although I believe they are the largest).
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Re: Study: Youth see Christians as judgmental, anti-gay

Postby Belial » Thu Oct 18, 2007 3:34 am UTC

I'm curious, have you been looking for them?


I haven't been, and that's a fair point. On the other hand, the *other* viewpoint comes looking for me.

Because the Anglican (Episcopal) Church in the US was sort of split in two because of the majority of the church supported the inclusion of homosexuality, and they're not the only church to have done so (although I believe they are the largest).


I vaguely remember hearing about the split, but not what it was about. Hmm. Good to know.
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Re: Study: Youth see Christians as judgmental, anti-gay

Postby H.E.L.e.N. » Thu Oct 18, 2007 5:08 am UTC

Ninja'ed, but more Re: pro-gay Christians:

Gay Episcopal Bishop

And the NYC pride parade this year made a point of starting off with a whole bunch of pro-queer religious groups. I just found the list -- see everyone with a "1" in the first column.

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Re: Study: Youth see Christians as judgmental, anti-gay

Postby 22/7 » Thu Oct 18, 2007 5:18 am UTC

no-genius wrote:
Cheese wrote:Most people who are pro-gay and Christian are probably afraid to speak out, on the principle that they themselves see Christianity in general as anti-gay, and they'd be chucked out/excommunicated/untrusted or whatever if they did say "Hey guys, the gay are great, honest!"

Yes, because what with all the persecution they experience on a daily basis, Christians have every reason to avoid speaking out. Who could blame them for taking the easy option? Maybe if there were more of them, they might be able to work a safety-in-numbers thing...
Surely the principle of 'my conscience tells me this is right' should over-ride any other concerns?


Surely you're not suggesting that a white American Christian cannot experience persecution. Because, well, if *anyone* cannot suffer persecution, then no one can. It's kind of a package deal. So, have your pick. Jews didn't have it so bad during the holocaust or everyone and their mother can be persecuted?
Totally not a hypothetical...

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Re: Study: Youth see Christians as judgmental, anti-gay

Postby natraj » Thu Oct 18, 2007 5:29 am UTC

Mmm. I am a queer activist, and also a Christian who goes to church multiple times a week, and there is certainly a lot of prejudice on both sides. I don't shy away from telling people I am Christian, but in the circles I tend to hang out in -- the majority of my friends are somewhere waaaaay left of Democrats -- I do tend to sort of prepare automatically to have to justify and explain myself automatically just by saying that, because the second I tell most left-leaning types that I am Christian they automatically assume it means I am a homophobic judgmental jerk.

On the flip side, this prejudice is, at least, more -- valid, if that is the appropriate term, considering that I get the same reactions but with (in my opinion!) less rational reason from other Christians. For every instinctive incredulous shying-away I get from the leftist crowd I tend to associate with, I've gotten a lot more virulent and even downright hateful responses from churchgoing acquaintances when they find out I am queer and especially when they find out I'm an activist.

Of course, there is also the fact that I am admittedly biased towards thinking that homophobia is less valid as a prejudice (being based on what someone IS) than generalizing about a group of people who profess similar beliefs based on the fact that some of those belief-holders are quite vocal about their nastiness. Both of these, in my opinion, are silly, but. The latter is, to me, more understandable. Many gay people I know have been the target of various levels of anti-gay speech or action from homophobic Christians, whereas I know far fewer Christians who have been the target of anti-Christian hate from gay people.
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Re: Study: Youth see Christians as judgmental, anti-gay

Postby 22/7 » Thu Oct 18, 2007 5:40 am UTC

No question, being in the majority is where it's at in the US. My point was, and it may have been a bit overboard, that saying that a group cannot or does not face any kind of prejudice/discrimination/etc. is asinine, and saying "you don't have it as bad as someone else so quit complaining" isn't really a legitimate answer to it.
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Re: Study: Youth see Christians as judgmental, anti-gay

Postby Solt » Thu Oct 18, 2007 7:41 am UTC

Belial wrote:If christianity wants to counter its horrible image, it should try....ACTUALLY COUNTERING ITS HORRIBLE IMAGE.


Wait, why are we assuming they actually want to counter this perception, again?

Sometimes silence speaks volumes.

Cheese wrote:Most people who are pro-gay and Christian are probably afraid to speak out, on the principle that they themselves see Christianity in general as anti-gay, and they'd be chucked out/excommunicated/untrusted or whatever if they did say "Hey guys, the gay are great, honest!"


Not very impressive for a group that claims to have moral authority. Down right hypocritical, in fact.

22/7 wrote:
no-genius wrote:
Cheese wrote:Most people who are pro-gay and Christian are probably afraid to speak out, on the principle that they themselves see Christianity in general as anti-gay, and they'd be chucked out/excommunicated/untrusted or whatever if they did say "Hey guys, the gay are great, honest!"

Yes, because what with all the persecution they experience on a daily basis, Christians have every reason to avoid speaking out. Who could blame them for taking the easy option? Maybe if there were more of them, they might be able to work a safety-in-numbers thing...
Surely the principle of 'my conscience tells me this is right' should over-ride any other concerns?


Surely you're not suggesting that a white American Christian cannot experience persecution. Because, well, if *anyone* cannot suffer persecution, then no one can. It's kind of a package deal. So, have your pick. Jews didn't have it so bad during the holocaust or everyone and their mother can be persecuted?


It is a fact that an educated, white, christian, middle class, straight, adult male has not and can not be persecuted in this country in any way.

The idea that they're afraid to speak out is bullshit.
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Re: Study: Youth see Christians as judgmental, anti-gay

Postby tessuraea » Thu Oct 18, 2007 10:52 am UTC

I'd say that, whatever their sampling method, their results are plausible. I know I'm a bit twitchy about Christianity because of previous experience with Christians who think I'm burning in hell forever or that any good government is morally obligated to kill me (honest, he said that) or various other things. All that was just for the pagan thing; add the gay thing and it gets worse.

I know *lots* of Christians who don't think that way. I work for a minister, even, and see people who are part of the Interfaith movement every day. My parents are Christian and don't think that way. Unfortunately, the Christians who do get a lot more airtime, and the very real threat of violence gives their words more weight. My boss overheard someone say "Oh, she's a Christian--but don't worry, she's the good kind." That's pretty much how I think about it.

I would say that if Christians want people to think of them as good, upstanding citizens who are accepting of differences and live Christ's message of love, they should really do something about the radical "fundamentalist" Biblical-fake-literalists who spend all their time spewing hate. It's giving them an image problem, no doubt about that.
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Re: Study: Youth see Christians as judgmental, anti-gay

Postby Robin S » Thu Oct 18, 2007 11:41 am UTC

Of course Christianity today differs significantly from how it was when Jesus preached. Priorities were different in those days. That's been covered already.

idont_know12 wrote:May I remind you that most of the laws in the Old Testament were for sanitation reasons (don't eat pork, etc) and not actual moral laws. In addition, I believe Jesus' coming was supposed to start a 'New Covenant', which was supposed to eliminate all the old laws and put up new ones.
Both debatable, though at least you acknowledged the second one as a belief.

e946 wrote:catholicism is most certainly anti-gay, and I'vre read that baptists tend to be very conservative, while other groups (I don't know them all but methodist seems to be one) are more open.
I couldn't agree more. Recently, the first ever (as far as I am aware) traditional Jewish wedding for a gay couple was held at a Reform synagogue, and it provoked outrage among certain of the more orthodox groups.

Cheese wrote:Either a religion says that it's the best and only 'true' faith, and gets a lot of negative stigma which it has to fight off in some way, or it has to say, "Okay, you guys have a point," when faced with another religion in its way.
A lot of religion is about the way people live their lives, as well as their beliefs. When it comes to practice, there are many religions which embrace the practices of other religions without claiming that all of their beliefs are correct. I think that's important to bear in mind, though it may not have been what you were getting at.

In my opinion, the reason that the conservative versus liberal debate has intensified in recent times is because the rate of change in society in general has being increasing greatly. Changes in religion, for example, manifested themselves from the earliest times, but it is only in recent times that such changes were truly noticeable on a large scale within an individual's lifetime. That is partly because many recent religious changes have been in response to social and political changes, which themselves have been occurring at an increasing rate.
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Re: Study: Youth see Christians as judgmental, anti-gay

Postby 22/7 » Thu Oct 18, 2007 2:56 pm UTC

Solt wrote:
Belial wrote:If christianity wants to counter its horrible image, it should try....ACTUALLY COUNTERING ITS HORRIBLE IMAGE.


Wait, why are we assuming they actually want to counter this perception, again?

Sometimes silence speaks volumes.


No you're right, all Christians are anti-gay. May the gays burn.

Solt wrote:
Cheese wrote:Most people who are pro-gay and Christian are probably afraid to speak out, on the principle that they themselves see Christianity in general as anti-gay, and they'd be chucked out/excommunicated/untrusted or whatever if they did say "Hey guys, the gay are great, honest!"


Not very impressive for a group that claims to have moral authority. Down right hypocritical, in fact.


Do you even listen to yourself? My religion teaches tolerance, and it teaches that there is no single way or "right" way, be it through other forms of Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, etc. So why is it my place to go on the air and say, "this guy over here is a fucking liar!" when I believe that he has the right to his own beliefs? How is *not* verbally lambasting a guy who believes that being homosexual is wrong "hypocritical?"

Solt wrote:It is a fact that an educated, white, christian, middle class, straight, adult male has not and can not be persecuted in this country in any way.

The idea that they're afraid to speak out is bullshit.


Wow. Just wow.
Totally not a hypothetical...

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Re: Study: Youth see Christians as judgmental, anti-gay

Postby no-genius » Thu Oct 18, 2007 4:15 pm UTC

22/7 wrote:
no-genius wrote:
Cheese wrote:Most people who are pro-gay and Christian are probably afraid to speak out, on the principle that they themselves see Christianity in general as anti-gay, and they'd be chucked out/excommunicated/untrusted or whatever if they did say "Hey guys, the gay are great, honest!"

Yes, because what with all the persecution they experience on a daily basis, Christians have every reason to avoid speaking out. Who could blame them for taking the easy option? Maybe if there were more of them, they might be able to work a safety-in-numbers thing...
Surely the principle of 'my conscience tells me this is right' should over-ride any other concerns?


Surely you're not suggesting that a white American Christian cannot experience persecution. Because, well, if *anyone* cannot suffer persecution, then no one can. It's kind of a package deal. So, have your pick. Jews didn't have it so bad during the holocaust or everyone and their mother can be persecuted?

I meant specifically being persecuted for being Christians.
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Re: Study: Youth see Christians as judgmental, anti-gay

Postby Malice » Thu Oct 18, 2007 8:03 pm UTC

22/7 wrote:
Solt wrote:
Cheese wrote:Most people who are pro-gay and Christian are probably afraid to speak out, on the principle that they themselves see Christianity in general as anti-gay, and they'd be chucked out/excommunicated/untrusted or whatever if they did say "Hey guys, the gay are great, honest!"


Not very impressive for a group that claims to have moral authority. Down right hypocritical, in fact.


Do you even listen to yourself? My religion teaches tolerance, and it teaches that there is no single way or "right" way, be it through other forms of Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, etc. So why is it my place to go on the air and say, "this guy over here is a fucking liar!" when I believe that he has the right to his own beliefs? How is *not* verbally lambasting a guy who believes that being homosexual is wrong "hypocritical?"


You can decry his actions without decrying his beliefs. If he says, "Homosexuality is sin, and gays should burn in hell, and we should totally not allow gays to drive cars..."
You don't have to say, "Your beliefs are wrong, you lying liar who lies. Homosexuality is God's greatest gift, and in the afterlife gays will have all the best cloud-parties."
You probably should say, "Even if you think gays are sinning, as a Christian we should try to love sinners (everyone's a sinner, after all). Also we shouldn't use the government to further our religion. For both those reasons, though I respect your anti-gay beliefs, I don't think we should make DWG illegal."
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Re: Study: Youth see Christians as judgmental, anti-gay

Postby Belial » Thu Oct 18, 2007 8:08 pm UTC

You don't have to say, "Your beliefs are wrong, you lying liar who lies. Homosexuality is God's greatest gift, and in the afterlife gays will have all the best cloud-parties."


Though, if you *did* say that, I would invite you to exponentially more parties.

But not cloud parties. I'm not gay enough to have a good one.
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