Study: Youth see Christians as judgmental, anti-gay

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Re: Study: Youth see Christians as judgmental, anti-gay

Postby Robin S » Thu Oct 18, 2007 8:08 pm UTC

Fantastic response, Malice! :)
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Re: Study: Youth see Christians as judgmental, anti-gay

Postby oxoiron » Thu Oct 18, 2007 8:18 pm UTC

Belial wrote:
You don't have to say, "Your beliefs are wrong, you lying liar who lies. Homosexuality is God's greatest gift, and in the afterlife gays will have all the best cloud-parties."


Though, if you *did* say that, I would invite you to exponentially more parties.

But not cloud parties. I'm not gay enough to have a good one.

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Re: Study: Youth see Christians as judgmental, anti-gay

Postby 22/7 » Thu Oct 18, 2007 8:29 pm UTC

Malice wrote:You can decry his actions without decrying his beliefs. If he says, "Homosexuality is sin, and gays should burn in hell, and we should totally not allow gays to drive cars..."
You don't have to say, "Your beliefs are wrong, you lying liar who lies. Homosexuality is God's greatest gift, and in the afterlife gays will have all the best cloud-parties."
You probably should say, "Even if you think gays are sinning, as a Christian we should try to love sinners (everyone's a sinner, after all). Also we shouldn't use the government to further our religion. For both those reasons, though I respect your anti-gay beliefs, I don't think we should make DWG illegal."


Surely, one can do all those things. But if one is honestly taking a Biblical approach, you and I would never hear about it, because it would be done in private between the person who is speaking out so adamantly and the person who disagrees with him.

Would also like to point out the fact that we've called Christians in general (or at least the vocal ones) judgmental and now are calling the Christians who *aren't* vocal not judgmental enough. Just throwing that out there.
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Re: Study: Youth see Christians as judgmental, anti-gay

Postby Belial » Thu Oct 18, 2007 8:39 pm UTC

You can be vocal and not judgemental.

You just have to shout "No, seriously guys, we disagree! Gay rights are pretty neat!"

Attacks don't have to come into it.
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Re: Study: Youth see Christians as judgmental, anti-gay

Postby 22/7 » Thu Oct 18, 2007 8:42 pm UTC

I think we may be toeing the line here with "judgmental". You would think the same of someone who had the beliefs that all gays were going to burn in hell but didn't say it, as someone who did say it, you would just be more annoyed by the latter.
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Re: Study: Youth see Christians as judgmental, anti-gay

Postby Belial » Thu Oct 18, 2007 8:44 pm UTC

Yes. I'm apparently missing the crucial connection that makes that both true and relevant however.
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Re: Study: Youth see Christians as judgmental, anti-gay

Postby zenten » Thu Oct 18, 2007 8:46 pm UTC

Belial wrote:You can be vocal and not judgemental.

You just have to shout "No, seriously guys, we disagree! Gay rights are pretty neat!"

Attacks don't have to come into it.


That's still judgmental.

It's you know, right and all, but still judgmental.

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Re: Study: Youth see Christians as judgmental, anti-gay

Postby Belial » Thu Oct 18, 2007 8:53 pm UTC

I'm going to profess total ignorance, then. How is that judgemental? In the sense used in this article, not the "what socks will I wear today" sense?
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Re: Study: Youth see Christians as judgmental, anti-gay

Postby Robin S » Thu Oct 18, 2007 8:58 pm UTC

Well, I suppose one could argue that it was making a judgment against the anti-gays for being judgmental themselves. It's not an argument I'd try to make, however (although I would try to maintain some decency talking to the anti-gays about it, as Malice outlined).
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Re: Study: Youth see Christians as judgmental, anti-gay

Postby Belial » Thu Oct 18, 2007 9:02 pm UTC

Interestingly, the point of phrasing it that way was to avoid saying *anything* about the anti-gays themselves, and to simply disagree with their position, and state the church's own position.
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Re: Study: Youth see Christians as judgmental, anti-gay

Postby 22/7 » Fri Oct 19, 2007 7:50 am UTC

Belial wrote:Yes. I'm apparently missing the crucial connection that makes that both true and relevant however.


I simply meant that we're calling for the heads of one group for the exact same thing that we think another group ought to do more of. We're being awfully judgmental of the people who we're calling judgmental.

Of course, we think that they ought to do this simply to distance themselves from the first group. And from what I can remember of my Christian upbringing, handling the media and staying in the social/cultural center (rather than left or right) was never priority one.
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Re: Study: Youth see Christians as judgmental, anti-gay

Postby Amicitia » Fri Oct 19, 2007 10:30 am UTC

Hypocrisy isn't a logical fallacy.
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Re: Study: Youth see Christians as judgmental, anti-gay

Postby zenten » Fri Oct 19, 2007 1:40 pm UTC

Belial wrote:I'm going to profess total ignorance, then. How is that judgemental? In the sense used in this article, not the "what socks will I wear today" sense?


Saying "Gays are pretty neat" is a judgment.

To give a more extreme example, if I were to say "Gulags are pretty neat!" people would start getting upset, right?

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Re: Study: Youth see Christians as judgmental, anti-gay

Postby no-genius » Fri Oct 19, 2007 2:15 pm UTC

zenten wrote:
Belial wrote:I'm going to profess total ignorance, then. How is that judgemental? In the sense used in this article, not the "what socks will I wear today" sense?


Saying "Gays are pretty neat" is a judgment.

To give a more extreme example, if I were to say "Gulags are pretty neat!" people would start getting upset, right?

I don't know what a gulag is. Sure, positive discrimination is still discrimination, but sometimes its necessary when there is already negative discrimination. So although we don't want to have to say "Look guys, gays are actually OK," when we have people saying negative things about them, something is needed to re-dress the balance. It's not ideal, but nothing in the real world is.
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Re: Study: Youth see Christians as judgmental, anti-gay

Postby 22/7 » Fri Oct 19, 2007 3:55 pm UTC

Not sure what a gulag is, either. I'm also not sure how much I like this "gotta keep it balanced" thing. I guess from an equal opportunity stand point it only makes sense, but I don't see why some Christians ought to be saying "gays are neat" simply because some other ones are saying "gays are not neat".
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Re: Study: Youth see Christians as judgmental, anti-gay

Postby Freyja » Fri Oct 19, 2007 4:00 pm UTC

One thing i've noticed is that this trend is not confined to Christianity. A lot of Muslim youths i've met are much the same way. I get the feeling that organized religion, in general, is getting a lot of heat on being anti-gay, judgmental, etc.

If anything, i've begun to feel bad for a lot of people who follow organized religion because it seems that in the eyes of most atheists, they carry a social stigma. I've been in situations where, as the only non-Christian in a group, i feel seriously left out and afraid to voice my own beliefs. However, just the opposite can be true. I've been in groups where perhaps one or two out of ten people profess belief in religious system and they are noticeably treated as ignorant or just plain stupid by everyone else in the group.

Every group- religious, ethnic, or otherwise- carries some social stigma. It's just the context of any given situation that determines the strength and reaction to that stigma. Here, in the fabled deep south (aka Bumfuck, GA), people who read this article would probably disagree with much of it. In NYC, of course, the audience's reception would probably be different. Why? Because even though the churches here really are anti-gay and divided along racial lines, people support that label. They're proud of the fact that their churches are havens for the homophobic and that their church is almost exclusively white, black, or Korean (there are a lot of Koreans here, believe it or not). Now if these people were to move to San Francisco or Seattle, they'd probably be socially ostracized for being bible-thumping rednecks.

So it definitely goes both ways.
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Re: Study: Youth see Christians as judgmental, anti-gay

Postby no-genius » Fri Oct 19, 2007 5:44 pm UTC

22/7 wrote:Not sure what a gulag is, either. I'm also not sure how much I like this "gotta keep it balanced" thing. I guess from an equal opportunity stand point it only makes sense, but I don't see why some Christians ought to be saying "gays are neat" simply because some other ones are saying "gays are not neat".

Ought implies can :P

I never said ought. They don't have to say that, but they can say that if they want to.
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Re: Study: Youth see Christians as judgmental, anti-gay

Postby Belial » Fri Oct 19, 2007 5:58 pm UTC

zenten wrote:Saying "Gays are pretty neat" is a judgment.


That's why I said "Gay rights are pretty neat". Rights aren't people. There's nothing wrong with judging them.

22/7 wrote:Not sure what a gulag is, either.


A concentration camp. But in russia.
(If you're a history buff and have a problem with my abbreviated definition....I defy you to do better in six words)

I'm also not sure how much I like this "gotta keep it balanced" thing. I guess from an equal opportunity stand point it only makes sense, but I don't see why some Christians ought to be saying "gays are neat" simply because some other ones are saying "gays are not neat"


But the point isn't to be balanced. The point is that christians are (ostensibly) upset because everyone thinks they're anti-gay judgemental (maybe a better word would be "condemnatory") assholes. Which is being reinforced by the...loudly anti-gay assholes. If they want to take their image back, they have to counter those loudmouths. It's not even a matter of what they *should* do, it's a matter of their smartest move.

Besides, condemnation for being "judgemental" doesn't generally swing the other way. When you "judge" someone to be "pretty okay, same as everybody else", no one gets on your case for being "judgemental". People mostly get upset when you start singling out the people who are going to burn in hell forever.
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Re: Study: Youth see Christians as judgmental, anti-gay

Postby oxoiron » Fri Oct 19, 2007 6:18 pm UTC

Belial wrote:
22/7 wrote:Not sure what a gulag is, either.


A concentration camp. But in russia.
(If you're a history buff and have a problem with my abbreviated definition....I defy you to do better in six words)

Soviet-era Siberian political prison.

I just had to try, and now we're down to five words.

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Re: Study: Youth see Christians as judgmental, anti-gay

Postby Belial » Fri Oct 19, 2007 6:21 pm UTC

Hmm. I failed to capture the political-ness, you failed to capture the scale and horror. Between the two of us, I think we painted a pretty good picture, though
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Re: Study: Youth see Christians as judgmental, anti-gay

Postby madaloon » Fri Oct 19, 2007 6:25 pm UTC

Belial wrote:But the point isn't to be balanced. The point is that christians are (ostensibly) upset because everyone thinks they're anti-gay judgemental (maybe a better word would be "condemnatory") assholes. Which is being reinforced by the...loudly anti-gay assholes. If they want to take their image back, they have to counter those loudmouths. It's not even a matter of what they *should* do, it's a matter of their smartest move.


When evangelists come onto college campuses, there are always more liberal Christians who try to counter the evangelist's message of hate and condemnation for select groups. How many people remember it? It has been brought up here, but how many people recall the Episcopal Church's decision to accept gay people. Years ago, in the 1970s, the United Methodist Church's Council of Bishops took an anti-gay stance and wrote it into the church's doctrine. Many, many people left the Methodist church as a result of this decision. Still, about half of United Methodists are not in favor of the church's official anti-gay stance. Who brings any of these instances up? What should the accepting Christians do to take their image back?
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Re: Study: Youth see Christians as judgmental, anti-gay

Postby Belial » Fri Oct 19, 2007 6:30 pm UTC

Given that they're working at it harder than I thought, apparently, I'm not sure. I know the answer *isn't* just to ignore it for fear of being thought judgemental themselves, though.
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Re: Study: Youth see Christians as judgmental, anti-gay

Postby madaloon » Fri Oct 19, 2007 7:39 pm UTC

A large part of the image change lies in getting enough air time to effectively counter the Falwells and Robertsons who already have famously large followings. I don't know how the pro-gay Christians could/should go about achieving that, but it is the only way for the image to be modified.
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Re: Study: Youth see Christians as judgmental, anti-gay

Postby Malice » Sat Oct 20, 2007 2:22 am UTC

Well, there needs to be an "anti-Falwell" type, who is charismatic, speaks to a wide audience, and preaches tolerance and love.

No, wait. What am I talking about? That's a boring message and no one will listen or care.
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Re: Study: Youth see Christians as judgmental, anti-gay

Postby no-genius » Sat Oct 20, 2007 10:49 am UTC

Malice wrote:Well, there needs to be an "anti-Falwell" type, who is charismatic, speaks to a wide audience, and preaches tolerance and love.

No, wait. What am I talking about? That's a boring message and no one will listen or care.

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Re: Study: Youth see Christians as judgmental, anti-gay

Postby Aetre » Sat Oct 20, 2007 1:43 pm UTC

idont_know12 wrote:As to the whole 'anti-gay' thing... AFAIK (and correct me if I'm wrong), homosexuality is only stated against in the Old Testament.

Nope.

1 Corinthians 6:9-10 (NIV): "Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters, nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God."

^ Jesus himself never said it, that's true. But the apostles certainly did. Look at the company homosexuality is in there, though; it's on the same level of idolater, (male) prostitute, thief, drunkard, slanderer, and swindler. Quite a wide range of supposedly equally abhorrant sins.

---

On the original topic of the article, I think the article is absolutely right in saying Christianity has a negative image--and I would also agree that this reputation is to a large degree deserved. Granted, it doesn't say anything about the larger context of the public's opinion of religion as a whole... I'd be very interested to see if "religious" fares as poorly in opinion polls as does "Christian."

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Re: Study: Youth see Christians as judgmental, anti-gay

Postby no-genius » Sat Oct 20, 2007 2:51 pm UTC

Aetre wrote:Jesus himself is never recorded in the bible as saying it, that's true.
But the apostles certainly are recorded in the bible saying it.

Pedantic fix'd

Also, what do you mean by apostles? The letters to Corinthians were written by St. Paul, and he wasn't an apostle.
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Re: Study: Youth see Christians as judgmental, anti-gay

Postby Aetre » Sat Oct 20, 2007 3:10 pm UTC

Very well, then. I retract the word, "apostles." Insert "followers" instead. That, and the point was to show that the New Testament does indeed include this condemnation of homosexuality.

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Re: Study: Youth see Christians as judgmental, anti-gay

Postby no-genius » Sat Oct 20, 2007 3:17 pm UTC

O/T: Some (mainly Nietche) would argue that St. Paul took Christianity in a very different direction that Jesus might have wanted. I am paraphrasing like crazy because I really need to re-read 'The Anti-Christ'.
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Re: Study: Youth see Christians as judgmental, anti-gay

Postby Dr Strangelove » Sun Oct 21, 2007 8:27 am UTC

Hey guys. A Christian here. Here's my stance on the gay issue. Please read to the end before flaming.

1. Being gay is a sin.
2. Even thinking about sinning is a sin.
3. Everyone sins.
4. There is no "scale" to sin, an ax murderer is the same as someone who tells one lie.
5. All Christians are sinners, all sinners can be Christian.
6. Gay people are not "more damned" than anyone else, and should have the same rights as everyone else.
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Re: Study: Youth see Christians as judgmental, anti-gay

Postby 22/7 » Sun Oct 21, 2007 8:38 am UTC

oxoiron wrote:@22/7: A great book you should read is "One Day in the Life of Ivan Denisovich" by Aleksandr Isaevich Solzhenitsyn.


I have actually. Just wasn't familiar with the term. If it's used extensively in the book, well, it's been about 5 years since I read it, and I guess I just don't remember.

Dr Strangelove wrote:a bunch of stuff...
4. There is no "scale" to sin, an ax murderer is the same as someone who tells one lie.


Very important when taking into account the "look at the range of sins homosexuality is grouped with."

madaloon wrote:Years ago, in the 1970s, the United Methodist Church's Council of Bishops took an anti-gay stance and wrote it into the church's doctrine. Many, many people left the Methodist church as a result of this decision. Still, about half of United Methodists are not in favor of the church's official anti-gay stance. Who brings any of these instances up? What should the accepting Christians do to take their image back?


This I didn't know. The churches I was raised in (all UMCs) were all very gray-area about homosexuality (which is something I valued about that church. Let the people make up their own minds) and the church's "official stance" wasn't given much heed, which I think is true of much of the UMC, in general. Maybe it's just my experience with them, though.
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Re: Study: Youth see Christians as judgmental, anti-gay

Postby Hawknc » Sun Oct 21, 2007 8:46 am UTC

Dr Strangelove wrote:Hey guys. A Christian here. Here's my stance on the gay issue. Please read to the end before flaming.

1. Being gay is a sin.
2. Even thinking about sinning is a sin.
3. Everyone sins.
4. There is no "scale" to sin, an ax murderer is the same as someone who tells one lie.
5. All Christians are sinners, all sinners can be Christian.
6. Gay people are not "more damned" than anyone else, and should have the same rights as everyone else.

Why is being gay a sin? I've never understood that. Murder, adultery, lying...all of them are detrimental to a functioning society, I get why you wouldn't want them to occur. But sleeping with someone of the same sex? It's hardly about to sink us into anarchy.

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Re: Study: Youth see Christians as judgmental, anti-gay

Postby Malice » Sun Oct 21, 2007 11:39 am UTC

From a historical, areligious perspective, homosexuality was probably looked down upon for two reasons:

-Gays don't breed. Breeding is good for the spreading of religion, as long as teaching your kids is equally important. This is why the Bible is big on breeding after marriage. The marriage ensures the parents stick around to care for and raise the kids in the religion, the breeding emphasis makes sure there are many kids. See what happens to religions which stress celibacy or letting children make up their own minds--more often than not, they die out. Gays don't breed, so gays don't have as much to contribute. Better for the gays to get married and have kids.

-Christianity's always been competing with other religions. Apparently, around the time some of the anti-gay parts of the Bible were written, Christianity happened to be competing with a religion which had, as rituals, homosexual sex/orgies. In some interpretations, these passages aren't meant to condemn all homosexuality; just homosexuality used to worship a different god. God is much more unhappy about that. I do believe that's commandment number 1. Which commandment is "Thou shalt not be gay" again? Right.
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Re: Study: Youth see Christians as judgmental, anti-gay

Postby no-genius » Sun Oct 21, 2007 12:21 pm UTC

Perhaps I should say that I don't believe in the concept of sin. (Yes, you can do things that hurt others, but then being an athiest I can hardly ascribe a higher power that I should be responsible to. Which is not to say that I don't have a responsibility to not hurt others, just that there's no reason for it other than 'I don't want others to hurt me' or 'its the law')
Dr Strangelove wrote:1. Being gay is a sin.

But, why? Being gay doesn't hurt anyone, the same as wanting to be gay doesn't hurt anyone.
Dr Strangelove wrote:4. There is no "scale" to sin, an ax murderer is the same as someone who tells one lie.

But unless the lie is "No, I'm not an axe murderer", how are these the same? If you believe in the sanctity of (human) life, how can you justify that statement?
Dr Strangelove wrote:6. Gay people are not "more damned" than anyone else, and should have the same rights as everyone else.

But the problem is that not every Christian believes this, and those ones tend to shout the loudest. If you (and people who share your beliefs) don't want the anti-gay perception of your religion, shout louder!

As a side-note, does the pope sin?
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Re: Study: Youth see Christians as judgmental, anti-gay

Postby Maurog » Sun Oct 21, 2007 1:56 pm UTC

Being human is a sin. We stole an apple from His garden...

...and He remembers.
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Re: Study: Youth see Christians as judgmental, anti-gay

Postby Chocceh » Sun Oct 21, 2007 7:25 pm UTC

"Hey guys, here's life and all, it's a lot of fun! I'm sure you'll love it. By the way, you're automatically sentenced to an afterlife in a fiery pit for all eternity. Why? Because I said so."
Okay

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Re: Study: Youth see Christians as judgmental, anti-gay

Postby podbaydoor » Sun Oct 21, 2007 7:40 pm UTC

Chocceh wrote:"Hey guys, here's life and all, it's a lot of fun! I'm sure you'll love it. By the way, you're automatically sentenced to an afterlife in a fiery pit for all eternity. Why? Because I said so."


Congratulations, you've wittily bashed Christianity. Yay?
tenet |ˈtenit|
noun
a principle or belief, esp. one of the main principles of a religion or philosophy : the tenets of classical liberalism.
tenant |ˈtenənt|
noun
a person who occupies land or property rented from a landlord.

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Re: Study: Youth see Christians as judgmental, anti-gay

Postby Malice » Sun Oct 21, 2007 8:45 pm UTC

To be fair, post-Christ, God makes it remarkably easy to get out of being in that fiery pit.
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Re: Study: Youth see Christians as judgmental, anti-gay

Postby no-genius » Sun Oct 21, 2007 10:06 pm UTC

Are you kidding? My race built fiery pits!
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Re: Study: Youth see Christians as judgmental, anti-gay

Postby Cheese » Sun Oct 21, 2007 10:10 pm UTC

Malice wrote:To be fair, post-Christ, God makes it remarkably easy to get out of being in that fiery pit.
One thing that's annoyed me for years: Sermons about the need to not desert your faith. But if you did, you could just come back several years later and say "I'm genuinely sorry, God, honest!", thus getting back into heaven. The only problem would be premature death.

This reminds me of a recent article* about babies that die before baptism. They apparently used to go to limbo, because they still were covered in original sin, but are now definitely in heaven, to keep people happy. Yet another example of the church's eagerness to change to improve numbers.

*I googled around, but couldn't find it, sorry.
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