First gay marriage, now divorce

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First gay marriage, now divorce

Postby Flying Betty » Fri Jan 04, 2008 11:55 pm UTC

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 01734.html

I thought this was a pretty interesting read. It's not something that I'd ever thought about before. Child custody, for example, tends to be way skewed towards the mothers. What happens when both parents are mothers?
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Re: First gay marriage, now divorce

Postby EvanED » Sat Jan 05, 2008 1:46 am UTC

Darn. I'm so sad that they have to figure out how to be fair instead of sexist. [/sarcasm]

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Re: First gay marriage, now divorce

Postby 22/7 » Mon Jan 07, 2008 10:35 am UTC

EvanED wrote:Darn. I'm so sad that they have to figure out how to be fair instead of sexist. [/sarcasm]


I did see the sarcasm thing, but I have to wonder how much the skewed nature of those decisions is actual sexism (against men, I suppose) and how much is a product of sexism (against women). Afterall, why do we generally place children with the mother? Would it perhaps have anything to do with the fact that mothers tend to spend more time raising their children than fathers, and would that have anything to do with our expectations about how mothers and fathers respectively spend their time? Afterall, staying at home and raising the kids is women's work.

Just sayin'.
Totally not a hypothetical...

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Re: First gay marriage, now divorce

Postby Belial » Mon Jan 07, 2008 3:47 pm UTC

Well, sexism generally cuts both ways. By saying that raising kids is women's work, we both confine women to that role, and restrict men from it. Basically, the assumption is that men can't be competent and loving parents, because that's a girl thing.
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Re: First gay marriage, now divorce

Postby segmentation fault » Mon Jan 07, 2008 4:30 pm UTC

Flying Betty wrote:Child custody, for example, tends to be way skewed towards the mothers. What happens when both parents are mothers?


we should start by skewing custody towards the better parent. and no, female doesnt automatically mean better.
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Re: First gay marriage, now divorce

Postby 22/7 » Mon Jan 07, 2008 7:52 pm UTC

Belial wrote:Well, sexism generally cuts both ways. By saying that raising kids is women's work, we both confine women to that role, and restrict men from it. Basically, the assumption is that men can't be competent and loving parents, because that's a girl thing.

I think we're agreeing here. What I mean is, the courts generally placing children with the mother is (imo) a byproduct of our attitude toward gender roles when it comes to raising children and that attitude is heavily influenced by a sexist tradition. So we can complain about the courts generally automatically giving children of divorce to the mother, but only if we recognize that the mother is basically pigeon-holed into that position from the get-go.
Totally not a hypothetical...

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Re: First gay marriage, now divorce

Postby Vaniver » Mon Jan 07, 2008 7:55 pm UTC

Alternatively, courts might tend to place the child with the parent that earns less (thus it would generally be the woman), so that child support payments would be larger. I've heard but have not confirmed that a fraction of child support payments goes to the government/courts, and haven't looked at any data of custody cases.
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Re: First gay marriage, now divorce

Postby 22/7 » Mon Jan 07, 2008 8:07 pm UTC

Vaniver wrote:Alternatively, courts might tend to place the child with the parent that earns less (thus it would generally be the woman), so that child support payments would be larger. I've heard but have not confirmed that a fraction of child support payments goes to the government/courts, and haven't looked at any data of custody cases.

I've never heard anything about a fraction of child support going to the courts, but I also can't say it doesn't happen. I would be surprised if that were the case.
If, however, you meant that a larger child support payment would create a better situation for the child, that doesn't really make sense, as it's better to have all of the larger income and a fraction of the smaller than all of the smaller and a fraction of the bigger.
Totally not a hypothetical...

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Re: First gay marriage, now divorce

Postby oxoiron » Mon Jan 07, 2008 8:27 pm UTC

Flying Betty wrote:Child custody, for example, tends to be way skewed towards the mothers. What happens when both parents are mothers?

The mother gets custody 100% of the time. That's REALLY skewed towards the mothers.
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Re: First gay marriage, now divorce

Postby Belial » Mon Jan 07, 2008 8:29 pm UTC

oxoiron wrote:
Flying Betty wrote:Child custody, for example, tends to be way skewed towards the mothers. What happens when both parents are mothers?

The mother gets custody 100% of the time. That's REALLY skewed towards the mothers.


Erm...citation? It's skewed, but by my understanding it's not *that* skewed.
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Re: First gay marriage, now divorce

Postby 22/7 » Mon Jan 07, 2008 8:35 pm UTC

Belial wrote:
oxoiron wrote:
Flying Betty wrote:Child custody, for example, tends to be way skewed towards the mothers. What happens when both parents are mothers?

The mother gets custody 100% of the time. That's REALLY skewed towards the mothers.


Erm...citation? It's skewed, but by my understanding it's not *that* skewed.

Correct. I actually know someone who has a penis and gained custody of his children after a divorce. Therefore, I demand that the statistic be altered to represent this situation. I will accept 99.9995% (based on a ball park figure of maybe 20 million divorces over the last few years or so, a figure which I pulled directly from my rectum).
Totally not a hypothetical...

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Re: First gay marriage, now divorce

Postby Vaniver » Mon Jan 07, 2008 8:37 pm UTC

Belial wrote:
oxoiron wrote:
Flying Betty wrote:Child custody, for example, tends to be way skewed towards the mothers. What happens when both parents are mothers?

The mother gets custody 100% of the time. That's REALLY skewed towards the mothers.


Erm...citation? It's skewed, but by my understanding it's not *that* skewed.
If both parents are mothers, then if a parent gets the child, it must be a mother.
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Re: First gay marriage, now divorce

Postby oxoiron » Mon Jan 07, 2008 8:44 pm UTC

Vaniver wrote:
Belial wrote:
oxoiron wrote:
Flying Betty wrote:Child custody, for example, tends to be way skewed towards the mothers. What happens when both parents are mothers?

The mother gets custody 100% of the time. That's REALLY skewed towards the mothers.


Erm...citation? It's skewed, but by my understanding it's not *that* skewed.
If both parents are mothers, then if a parent gets the child, it must be a mother.

Thank you. That was the (apparently poorly understood) joke.
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Re: First gay marriage, now divorce

Postby 22/7 » Mon Jan 07, 2008 8:47 pm UTC

oxoiron wrote:Thank you. That was the (apparently poorly understood) joke.

Ahh, never-you-mind then.
Totally not a hypothetical...

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Re: First gay marriage, now divorce

Postby Belial » Mon Jan 07, 2008 8:55 pm UTC

Ahh, gotcha. Skimmed past the fact that you were answering the "what happens when both parents are mothers" question. Joke skipped right by me.
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Re: First gay marriage, now divorce

Postby BoomFrog » Wed Jan 09, 2008 3:09 am UTC

oxoiron wrote:
Vaniver wrote:
Belial wrote:
oxoiron wrote:
Flying Betty wrote:Child custody, for example, tends to be way skewed towards the mothers. What happens when both parents are mothers?

The mother gets custody 100% of the time. That's REALLY skewed towards the mothers.


Erm...citation? It's skewed, but by my understanding it's not *that* skewed.
If both parents are mothers, then if a parent gets the child, it must be a mother.

Thank you. That was the (apparently poorly understood) joke.


I got the joke immediately and it made me smile/groan. Just so you know, your not completely misunderstood.

And the gay marriage case should be easily decided if one parent works and the other doesn't, then then non-working one has a closer bond to the child, undoubtably. If the both work equal hours then give the kid to the nanny. :twisted:
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Re: First gay marriage, now divorce

Postby Belial » Wed Jan 09, 2008 3:34 am UTC

How does giving the child to the parent that can't afford to support it make any sense?
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Re: First gay marriage, now divorce

Postby akashra » Wed Jan 09, 2008 3:47 am UTC

Belial wrote:Erm...citation? It's skewed, but by my understanding it's not *that* skewed.

I want whatever drugs you're on!

No sane person needs statistics to admit that that women are favoured in childcare and custody cases, just like noone needs stats to prove that blacks commit more crime.

Wait. Hm. That second one might not be accurate.
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Re: First gay marriage, now divorce

Postby Belial » Wed Jan 09, 2008 3:51 am UTC

I wanted a citation for the "100%".

The part that was a joke.
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Re: First gay marriage, now divorce

Postby akashra » Wed Jan 09, 2008 3:53 am UTC

Belial wrote:I wanted a citation for the "100%".

The part that was a joke.

Wait what? Sexism is something we're allowed to joke about in 2008 now? Cool!
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Re: First gay marriage, now divorce

Postby 22/7 » Wed Jan 09, 2008 8:37 am UTC

Belial wrote:How does giving the child to the parent that can't afford to support it make any sense?

Ehh, I guess it really depends on how much child support can be pulled from the working parent. I'm certainly no expert, but maybe someone could find a worksheet for it to justify such a claim (or find the point at which the claim becomes justifiable)?
Totally not a hypothetical...

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Re: First gay marriage, now divorce

Postby JayDee » Wed Jan 09, 2008 11:48 pm UTC

22/7 wrote:
Belial wrote:How does giving the child to the parent that can't afford to support it make any sense?

Ehh, I guess it really depends on how much child support can be pulled from the working parent. I'm certainly no expert, but maybe someone could find a worksheet for it to justify such a claim (or find the point at which the claim becomes justifiable)?
Yeah, I'd have thought that the whole rationale for child support was that financial considerations were less an issue in choosing where the child ended up.
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Re: First gay marriage, now divorce

Postby Belial » Thu Jan 10, 2008 1:30 am UTC

Assuming both parents want the kid, though, it seems kindof shitty to make one parent work all the time to support a child they barely see.
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Re: First gay marriage, now divorce

Postby JayDee » Thu Jan 10, 2008 1:41 am UTC

I did say making it less of an issue. Everything else being equal or close to, let the kid follow the money by all means.
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Re: First gay marriage, now divorce

Postby ponzerelli » Thu Jan 10, 2008 2:50 am UTC

following the money would make sense to me. if the parent really never sees the child though, theres always the possibility of hiring a nanny. but that option also depends on the amount of income being generated, the parent could be working multiple jobs and still make next to nothing.

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Re: First gay marriage, now divorce

Postby neon » Thu Jan 10, 2008 3:57 am UTC

oxoiron wrote:The mother gets custody 100% of the time. That's REALLY skewed towards the mothers.


This is false even in the terms of your joke. Only one of the women is the child's mother. Unless the child is adopted, then I don't know.

22/7 wrote:Ehh, I guess it really depends on how much child support can be pulled from the working parent. I'm certainly no expert, but maybe someone could find a worksheet for it to justify such a claim (or find the point at which the claim becomes justifiable)?


Child support varies considerably from state to state but it is usually based on the father's income, the number of children and the cost of living. There is either a formula or a table that it is based on, much like your income taxes are based on a table. The amount you owe is the amount you owe regardless of how that leaves you. That is because it is the interests of the children that come first, ideally.

akashra wrote:No sane person needs statistics to admit that that women are favoured in childcare and custody cases


In my experience "no sane person" comes right before "my crackpot theory". Courts award custody to mothers because they are most often the nurturers or caretakers in the relationship. In examining a homosexual divorce with custody issues I would expect the court to try to determine with whom the child had the closest emotional bond. I believe that is the ideal in most heterosexual divorces and would expect no less in homosexual ones. But there is a lot of injustice in the world.
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Re: First gay marriage, now divorce

Postby daydalus » Thu Jan 10, 2008 3:22 pm UTC

Not really related to the topic at hand, but I thought this quote was funny/absurd/sad -

"One of the benefits of marriage is divorce," said Joyce Kauffman, a Boston divorce lawyer who has handled a dozen same-sex divorce cases

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Re: First gay marriage, now divorce

Postby ocean_soul » Thu Jan 10, 2008 7:58 pm UTC

akashra wrote:
Belial wrote:I wanted a citation for the "100%".

The part that was a joke.

Wait what? Sexism is something we're allowed to joke about in 2008 now? Cool!


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Re: First gay marriage, now divorce

Postby JayDee » Fri Jan 11, 2008 12:51 am UTC

neon wrote:
22/7 wrote:Ehh, I guess it really depends on how much child support can be pulled from the working parent. I'm certainly no expert, but maybe someone could find a worksheet for it to justify such a claim (or find the point at which the claim becomes justifiable)?


Child support varies considerably from state to state but it is usually based on the father's income, the number of children and the cost of living. There is either a formula or a table that it is based on, much like your income taxes are based on a table. The amount you owe is the amount you owe regardless of how that leaves you. That is because it is the interests of the children that come first, ideally.
Slightly off topic, but I've long been curious if there are cases out there where fathers get the kids and the mother pays child support. My brain thinks it should happen sometimes, but I've never heard of a case. (Only quoting you because you said father's income rather than non-child-getting-parent's income, btw.)
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Re: First gay marriage, now divorce

Postby Ari » Fri Jan 11, 2008 7:28 am UTC

Belial wrote:How does giving the child to the parent that can't afford to support it make any sense?


How does it make sense for straight couples either?

Because the idea is that one parent devotes the time, and the other devotes the money. It works this way inside marriages, too.

I'm certainly not saying that's perfect, though.

akashra wrote:Wait what? Sexism is something we're allowed to joke about in 2008 now? Cool!


Who would "disallow" you? People might disapprove, but if you believe it helps to joke about sexism, joke away?


Personally, I think this just highlights what's wrong with family courts and other similar legal institutions. The assumption that custody must go primarily to one parent. Even after a divorce, if at all possible, children should be given sufficient or equal access to both their parents, if said parents are fit to care for them.
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Re: First gay marriage, now divorce

Postby neon » Fri Jan 11, 2008 8:33 pm UTC

JayDee wrote:Slightly off topic, but I've long been curious if there are cases out there where fathers get the kids and the mother pays child support. My brain thinks it should happen sometimes, but I've never heard of a case. (Only quoting you because you said father's income rather than non-child-getting-parent's income, btw.)


Oh of course there are. Mostly when mom is an addict or incarcerated. Even then not always. But yeah, moms can lose not only custody but they can lose all parental rights in extreme cases. Most of the time it goes the way you would think. Women are, usually, the nurturers in the relationship and the courts do take that into account. There are times when mom doesn't bond with her children or has no interest in being the care taker and there are men who are nurturing. There is a fair amount of variation in gender roles among humans I do believe. :)
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Re: First gay marriage, now divorce

Postby JayDee » Fri Jan 11, 2008 11:00 pm UTC

neon wrote:
JayDee wrote:Slightly off topic, but I've long been curious if there are cases out there where fathers get the kids and the mother pays child support. My brain thinks it should happen sometimes, but I've never heard of a case. (Only quoting you because you said father's income rather than non-child-getting-parent's income, btw.)
Oh of course there are. Mostly when mom is an addict or incarcerated. Even then not always.
But do addict or incarcerated mums pay child support?
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Re: First gay marriage, now divorce

Postby Dream » Sat Jan 12, 2008 10:52 pm UTC

JayDee wrote:
neon wrote:
JayDee wrote:Slightly off topic, but I've long been curious if there are cases out there where fathers get the kids and the mother pays child support. My brain thinks it should happen sometimes, but I've never heard of a case. (Only quoting you because you said father's income rather than non-child-getting-parent's income, btw.)
Oh of course there are. Mostly when mom is an addict or incarcerated. Even then not always.
But do addict or incarcerated mums pay child support?


I believe these things are means tested. So expect Britney to pay tons of child support, and some minor criminal with a mandatory minimum sentence to pay nothing.
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Re: First gay marriage, now divorce

Postby neon » Sat Jan 12, 2008 11:01 pm UTC

Dream wrote:
JayDee wrote:
neon wrote:
JayDee wrote:Slightly off topic, but I've long been curious if there are cases out there where fathers get the kids and the mother pays child support. My brain thinks it should happen sometimes, but I've never heard of a case. (Only quoting you because you said father's income rather than non-child-getting-parent's income, btw.)
Oh of course there are. Mostly when mom is an addict or incarcerated. Even then not always.
But do addict or incarcerated mums pay child support?


I believe these things are means tested. So expect Britney to pay tons of child support, and some minor criminal with a mandatory minimum sentence to pay nothing.


No, if it has been adjudicated that you owe child support then you owe that amount, period, end of story. If you are incarcerated or homeless or vacationing on Jupiter at the time it does not matter. Your debt will simply accrue until you start paying it down. Maybe you could go to court and attempt to get it reduced and the court might be willing to go along with that (they don't have to though) if the person with custody agrees but good luck with that. It doesn't happen often.

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