"Restless Leg Syndrome"

Seen something interesting in the news or on the intertubes? Discuss it here.

Moderators: Zamfir, Hawknc, Moderators General, Prelates

Talus
Posts: 21
Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2008 7:01 pm UTC

"Restless Leg Syndrome"

Postby Talus » Wed Mar 19, 2008 10:46 am UTC

http://health.msn.com/health-topics/art ... 253&page=1

An article on whether drug companies are "inventing" new diseases in order to make more money off of "cures".
The stars of the show in this article are Janice Hoffman and her Restless Leg Syndrome. Apparently, she's even created a foundation to support people who have it.
The Restless Legs Syndrome Foundation is a non-profit organization which provides the latest information about restless legs syndrome (RLS). The three goals of the Foundation are to increase awareness, improve treatments, and through research, find a cure for RLS, a condition which severely affects the lives of millions of individuals.


Personally, I wouldn't be surprised if pharmaceutical companies were finding still more ways to rip us off, but the article makes the whole thing sound completely ridiculous. Maybe that's there intent though o_O
eh. it's 3:30.
must. go. to. bed...

thoughts?

User avatar
genewitch
Posts: 298
Joined: Sun Feb 25, 2007 2:28 am UTC

Re: "Restless Leg Syndrome"

Postby genewitch » Wed Mar 19, 2008 2:25 pm UTC

i'm not sure when this phrase "RLS" was coined, but i do know that we used to call it Junk Food Syndrome. Kids that ate too much junk food, when forced to sit still would bounce one or both legs at the foot. I have a friend that, when he plays video games or is on the computer for any extended period of time, that leg just shakes the room. I get it sometimes too. Usually after eating fried food or drinking waaaay to much coffee :-)

I think the first time i heard restless leg was a couple of years ago, 2005 at the earliest. I could be mistaken, though.
...C is for people who would rather sit at home and match up pairs of socks by the count of their elastic bands, than to just get dressed with mismatched shoes and take the lady out to dinner and nail her in the car on the way home -xkcd_n00bz
MyMusic

User avatar
Kizyr
Posts: 2070
Joined: Wed Nov 15, 2006 4:16 am UTC
Location: Virginia
Contact:

Re: "Restless Leg Syndrome"

Postby Kizyr » Wed Mar 19, 2008 2:35 pm UTC

RLS might be different from what you described, at least basing it off of what the commercials describe it as.

If I'm sitting still and the weight of my feet are closer to my toes (there's some specific range for it), then yeah, my leg will kind of involuntarily bounce. Same thing happens with my father, and probably about 3/4ths of my family. It's never been a problem, though, since if you move your feet forward an inch then it quits.

The way commercials describe RLS is like it's something that's always affecting you, particularly when you're trying to get to sleep. KF
~Kizyr
Image

daydalus
Posts: 76
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2007 4:05 pm UTC

Re: "Restless Leg Syndrome"

Postby daydalus » Wed Mar 19, 2008 2:39 pm UTC

The cure - Go run on the treadmill for 30 minutes.

User avatar
22/7
I'm pretty sure I have "The Slavery In My Asshole" on DVD.
Posts: 6475
Joined: Fri Jul 06, 2007 3:30 pm UTC
Location: 127.0.0.1

Re: "Restless Leg Syndrome"

Postby 22/7 » Wed Mar 19, 2008 3:28 pm UTC

genewitch wrote:i'm not sure when this phrase "RLS" was coined, but i do know that we used to call it Junk Food Syndrome. Kids that ate too much junk food, when forced to sit still would bounce one or both legs at the foot. I have a friend that, when he plays video games or is on the computer for any extended period of time, that leg just shakes the room. I get it sometimes too. Usually after eating fried food or drinking waaaay to much coffee :-)

I think the first time i heard restless leg was a couple of years ago, 2005 at the earliest. I could be mistaken, though.
That's not RLS.
daydalus wrote:The cure - Go run on the treadmill for 30 minutes.
Unless you're talking about the cure for flab, then no.
Talus wrote:Personally, I wouldn't be surprised if pharmaceutical companies were finding still more ways to rip us off
I'm sorry, but in what ways are they ripping you off right now?
Totally not a hypothetical...

Steroid wrote:
bigglesworth wrote:If your economic reality is a choice, then why are you not as rich as Bill Gates?
Don't want to be.
I want to be!

psyck0
Posts: 1651
Joined: Wed Mar 19, 2008 5:58 pm UTC
Contact:

Re: "Restless Leg Syndrome"

Postby psyck0 » Wed Mar 19, 2008 6:07 pm UTC

Signed up to reply to this.

RLS is in the DSM as a mental illness. That means that the psychiatrists of the US have gotten together and agreed that it is, in fact, a valid mental illness. According to the DSM, it has to be REALLY persistent to get a diagnosis, not just 'I get restless sometimes!'. Also, the DSM was last updated sometime around 2000 if memory serves me, so that is the latest it could have been included.

User avatar
Indon
Posts: 4433
Joined: Thu Oct 18, 2007 5:21 pm UTC
Location: Alabama :(
Contact:

Re: "Restless Leg Syndrome"

Postby Indon » Wed Mar 19, 2008 6:09 pm UTC

I think I know what they're referring to. Sometimes I wake up in the middle of the night with my leg feeling odd, and twitching very energetically and involuntarily if I don't get it moving or tense it somehow. Since it always goes away when I get a drink of water, I've just assumed it's due to dehydration.

And that 'bouncing leg' thing, I'm pretty sure it's a reflex which most humans have in common. I do it voluntarily when I'm bored.
So, I like talking. So if you want to talk about something with me, feel free to send me a PM.

My blog, now rarely updated.

Image

User avatar
PhantomReality
Posts: 329
Joined: Wed May 16, 2007 1:16 pm UTC
Location: The Chapel Thrill, NC
Contact:

Re: "Restless Leg Syndrome"

Postby PhantomReality » Wed Mar 19, 2008 6:46 pm UTC

I think restless leg syndrome is real. However medicating it is just fucked up.
DROP ACID NOT BOMBS.

User avatar
22/7
I'm pretty sure I have "The Slavery In My Asshole" on DVD.
Posts: 6475
Joined: Fri Jul 06, 2007 3:30 pm UTC
Location: 127.0.0.1

Re: "Restless Leg Syndrome"

Postby 22/7 » Wed Mar 19, 2008 6:54 pm UTC

I think depression is real, but the people who have it should really just learn to suck it up. They don't need medication.
Totally not a hypothetical...

Steroid wrote:
bigglesworth wrote:If your economic reality is a choice, then why are you not as rich as Bill Gates?
Don't want to be.
I want to be!

User avatar
Aluminus
Posts: 1337
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2007 7:51 pm UTC
Location: View From Space

Re: "Restless Leg Syndrome"

Postby Aluminus » Wed Mar 19, 2008 7:24 pm UTC

Depression and RLS cannot, and should not be compared. RLS is real, but it is nowhere near serious enough (usually) to warrant medication. The drug companies have a "if it feels weird, buy our pill" policy, which is unethical IMO. They will do anything to get people to buy their stuff. That's their mandate. They are corporations first and foremost. I have seen really sinister tactics used to get people to buy things (pills) they could live without.
fyrenwater wrote:Oh dear God, I just imagined this horrible scenario of a psychotic non-people-person running around, trying to steal the people-person section of people-peoples' brains to implant into their own brain.

User avatar
Belial
A terrible sound heard from a distance
Posts: 30450
Joined: Sat Apr 15, 2006 4:04 am UTC
Contact:

Re: "Restless Leg Syndrome"

Postby Belial » Wed Mar 19, 2008 7:28 pm UTC

RLS is real, but it is nowhere near serious enough (usually) to warrant medication. The drug companies have a "if it feels weird, buy our pill" policy, which is unethical IMO.


How do you figure? If the condition doesn't bother me, I won't medicate it, and the drug companies can't make me. But if it does bother me, I'm glad there's a pill I can use to take care of it.
addams wrote:A drunk neighbor is better than a sober Belial.


They/them

User avatar
Aluminus
Posts: 1337
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2007 7:51 pm UTC
Location: View From Space

Re: "Restless Leg Syndrome"

Postby Aluminus » Wed Mar 19, 2008 7:53 pm UTC

Agreed, but no one should base their need for a pill on what they see on the television. If someone really wants a pill, then they should go ahead and buy it, but really see a doctor first. And if it's in the DSM, then it must be important for some people that there is a pill now.
It's just a shame that drug companies are allowed such sketchy practices. They could invent a (false) illness if they wanted, they have the resources. Thankfully, there are researchers whose job it is to investigate illnesses.

Image
fyrenwater wrote:Oh dear God, I just imagined this horrible scenario of a psychotic non-people-person running around, trying to steal the people-person section of people-peoples' brains to implant into their own brain.

User avatar
Belial
A terrible sound heard from a distance
Posts: 30450
Joined: Sat Apr 15, 2006 4:04 am UTC
Contact:

Re: "Restless Leg Syndrome"

Postby Belial » Wed Mar 19, 2008 7:58 pm UTC

Agreed, but no one should base their need for a pill on what they see on the television. If someone really wants a pill, then they should go ahead and buy it, but really see a doctor first.


Of course, but it's a necessity of the business: If they didn't advertise, no one would buy the pill, they couldn't afford to make it, etcetera.

Besides, it's not like just because something's on TV, you have to buy it.
addams wrote:A drunk neighbor is better than a sober Belial.


They/them

User avatar
Indon
Posts: 4433
Joined: Thu Oct 18, 2007 5:21 pm UTC
Location: Alabama :(
Contact:

Re: "Restless Leg Syndrome"

Postby Indon » Wed Mar 19, 2008 8:15 pm UTC

Belial wrote:Of course, but it's a necessity of the business: If they didn't advertise, no one would buy the pill, they couldn't afford to make it, etcetera.


Well, theoretically, drugs that would have a significant impact would become known to doctors, who would then recommend the pills to their patients.

Advertising leads to patients recommending pills to their doctors.
So, I like talking. So if you want to talk about something with me, feel free to send me a PM.

My blog, now rarely updated.

Image

User avatar
22/7
I'm pretty sure I have "The Slavery In My Asshole" on DVD.
Posts: 6475
Joined: Fri Jul 06, 2007 3:30 pm UTC
Location: 127.0.0.1

Re: "Restless Leg Syndrome"

Postby 22/7 » Wed Mar 19, 2008 8:34 pm UTC

Aluminus wrote:Depression and RLS cannot, and should not be compared. RLS is real, but it is nowhere near serious enough (usually) to warrant medication. The drug companies have a "if it feels weird, buy our pill" policy, which is unethical IMO. They will do anything to get people to buy their stuff. That's their mandate. They are corporations first and foremost. I have seen really sinister tactics used to get people to buy things (pills) they could live without.

Absolutely it should, and my statement was made simply to show how ridiculous the previous statement was, I don't actually believe that. There is nothing, and I do mean nothing unethical about a drug company advertising its products to its consumers. And do you have some kind of reference, evidence, anything to support the "they will do anything to get people to buy their stuff" bit? Is it worse than what any other companies that sell products do? Is it worse than what tobacco companies do?
Aluminus wrote:Agreed, but no one should base their need for a pill on what they see on the television. If someone really wants a pill, then they should go ahead and buy it, but really see a doctor first. And if it's in the DSM, then it must be important for some people that there is a pill now.
It's just a shame that drug companies are allowed such sketchy practices. They could invent a (false) illness if they wanted, they have the resources. Thankfully, there are researchers whose job it is to investigate illnesses.
You're blaming the gun manufacturer for murders perpetrated by their guns. Also, though I don't really agree with the argument in general, let's all remember that homosexuality used to be in the DSM.
Also and again, do you have some kind of example of their "sketchy practices" and how they are somehow worse than other advertising campaigns? What about Geico? Their ads are ridiculously successful, are they underhanded and sneaky too? Re: false illness, do you mean like gingivitis? Fuck, man, Firefox recognizes it as a word.
Indon wrote:Well, theoretically, drugs that would have a significant impact would become known to doctors, who would then recommend the pills to their patients.

Advertising leads to patients recommending pills to their doctors.
Just out of curiosity, are you one of those people that thinks that doctors get money for writing prescriptions? Or that drug companies shouldn't be taking them out to dinner, catering in lunch, etc?
Totally not a hypothetical...

Steroid wrote:
bigglesworth wrote:If your economic reality is a choice, then why are you not as rich as Bill Gates?
Don't want to be.
I want to be!

User avatar
Indon
Posts: 4433
Joined: Thu Oct 18, 2007 5:21 pm UTC
Location: Alabama :(
Contact:

Re: "Restless Leg Syndrome"

Postby Indon » Wed Mar 19, 2008 9:52 pm UTC

22/7 wrote:Just out of curiosity, are you one of those people that thinks that doctors get money for writing prescriptions? Or that drug companies shouldn't be taking them out to dinner, catering in lunch, etc?


I'm not aware of any pharmesutical commission system, and in fact what I know of the industry wouldn't make sense if there was - since, after all, the chances of a doctor prescribing a drug significantly increase when the patient recommends the drug to the doctor.

Do drug companies take doctors out to dinner and such?

My position is that doctors are the ones trained to know things about your body. You don't perform surgery on yourself, you don't do self-diagnosis, and you shouldn't be the one picking your own drugs. But drug advertisements try to do just that - they cater to a group ultimately uninformed about the decision they're making, yet empowered to some degree to make decisions.

As a programmer, it would be like Microsoft started making commercials about .NET and telling users to ask their software designers to use the .NET architecture. I've got nothing against the architecture but I'm not going to use it if its' inappropriate... unless some user is absurdly pressuring me into doing so because they saw an ad on TV.
So, I like talking. So if you want to talk about something with me, feel free to send me a PM.

My blog, now rarely updated.

Image

User avatar
Belial
A terrible sound heard from a distance
Posts: 30450
Joined: Sat Apr 15, 2006 4:04 am UTC
Contact:

Re: "Restless Leg Syndrome"

Postby Belial » Wed Mar 19, 2008 9:54 pm UTC

Indon wrote:Do drug companies take doctors out to dinner and such?


Or they through lavishly catered conferences at the hospital itself.

My mom was an RN. I still have hundreds of pens from those conferences. Each with a different drug's name on it.
addams wrote:A drunk neighbor is better than a sober Belial.


They/them

User avatar
Indon
Posts: 4433
Joined: Thu Oct 18, 2007 5:21 pm UTC
Location: Alabama :(
Contact:

Re: "Restless Leg Syndrome"

Postby Indon » Wed Mar 19, 2008 9:57 pm UTC

Belial wrote:Or they through lavishly catered conferences at the hospital itself.

My mom was an RN. I still have hundreds of pens from those conferences. Each with a different drug's name on it.


Hmm... on the ethics continuum, I'd put that as somewhat less ethical than a technology expo (which I have no particular problem with), and somewhat more ethical than a political contributions dinner (which I do have a problem with).

As such, I'm not quite sure what to make of it at first glance.

Edit: I'mma take a moment to clarify.

On the one hand, doctors are specialists who are the group best equipped to evaluate the claims that a drug company makes about the effectiveness of their product - as such, it is appropriate that they recieve exposure of that nature, and natural that the exposure be of a promoting nature.

On the other hand, things like getting a free meal smack less of simple swag and more of bribery - there's a fine line between 'corporation trying to get your attention towards their product' and 'corporation giving you stuff with a quid pro quo expectation'.
Last edited by Indon on Wed Mar 19, 2008 10:04 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.
So, I like talking. So if you want to talk about something with me, feel free to send me a PM.

My blog, now rarely updated.

Image

User avatar
22/7
I'm pretty sure I have "The Slavery In My Asshole" on DVD.
Posts: 6475
Joined: Fri Jul 06, 2007 3:30 pm UTC
Location: 127.0.0.1

Re: "Restless Leg Syndrome"

Postby 22/7 » Wed Mar 19, 2008 10:02 pm UTC

I absolutely agree with you that doctors should be the ones calling the shots, but I can't disagree more that drug companies shouldn't be advertising. It's their job to get the word out when a new product comes out and to make sure that the people who buy those products (us) are aware and informed about it. Doctors should, of course, be relatively unswayed by a patient requesting one drug over another if the drug they are requesting is inappropriate for the treatment, but that's on the doctor, not the drug company.
Indon wrote:
Belial wrote:Or they through lavishly catered conferences at the hospital itself.

My mom was an RN. I still have hundreds of pens from those conferences. Each with a different drug's name on it.


Hmm... on the ethics continuum, I'd put that as somewhat less ethical than a technology expo (which I have no particular problem with), and somewhat more ethical than a political contributions dinner (which I do have a problem with).

As such, I'm not quite sure what to make of it at first glance.
Before we get our panties in a wad about it, consider this. Many doctors work well over the 40 hour/week standard taking care of their patients not only at their office, but also covering patients in the hospital when it is their time on call. It is very necessary for a doctor to stay up on the latest treatments, drugs, techniques, you name it. So when is your doctor going to find out about those things? Should he have to skip dinner with his family to learn about it? Should he be seeing fewer patients each week, making it harder for you to get in when you're sick? Or is an acceptable solution to invite the doctors (and possibly their spouses/family/whatever) out to dinner where they can inform them of the new product, what studies have been run and what those studies show, etc.? Because that's pretty much what happens. It's insanely boring, it takes time out of the doctors' personal lives, why shouldn't they get a dinner out of it?
Totally not a hypothetical...

Steroid wrote:
bigglesworth wrote:If your economic reality is a choice, then why are you not as rich as Bill Gates?
Don't want to be.
I want to be!

User avatar
Indon
Posts: 4433
Joined: Thu Oct 18, 2007 5:21 pm UTC
Location: Alabama :(
Contact:

Re: "Restless Leg Syndrome"

Postby Indon » Wed Mar 19, 2008 10:08 pm UTC

22/7 wrote:Because that's pretty much what happens. It's insanely boring, it takes time out of the doctors' personal lives, why shouldn't they get a dinner out of it?


I've never been to an expo or MSDN (MicroSoft Developer's Network) event in which I got anything free which wasn't simple swag (to include the ever-popular raffle, of course).

What's wrong with brown-bagging a lunch to a professional development event in order to avoid the appearance of conflict of interest?

Edit: I would make an exception if the individuals had to actually pay a reasonable amount to enter the event - then you aren't necessarily getting anything for free.
So, I like talking. So if you want to talk about something with me, feel free to send me a PM.

My blog, now rarely updated.

Image

User avatar
22/7
I'm pretty sure I have "The Slavery In My Asshole" on DVD.
Posts: 6475
Joined: Fri Jul 06, 2007 3:30 pm UTC
Location: 127.0.0.1

Re: "Restless Leg Syndrome"

Postby 22/7 » Wed Mar 19, 2008 11:08 pm UTC

The company is basically paying for the doctor's time much in the same way you are when you go to his office. They want the doctor to know that their product exists and what it does. This, however, takes time. Not only that, it's time above and beyond work time. A consultant, for example, gets paid for work that he's not doing while he's away training. Doctors, on the other hand, have to do that training in their free time.

Put yourself in the doctor's shoes. If they're not going to buy you dinner (and hopefully your family as well) then why should you go? You've got an evening at home with your family on the one hand and 2 or so hours spent with someone you barely know explaining how a new drug works on the other. Why would you ever pick the second one?
Totally not a hypothetical...

Steroid wrote:
bigglesworth wrote:If your economic reality is a choice, then why are you not as rich as Bill Gates?
Don't want to be.
I want to be!

User avatar
Indon
Posts: 4433
Joined: Thu Oct 18, 2007 5:21 pm UTC
Location: Alabama :(
Contact:

Re: "Restless Leg Syndrome"

Postby Indon » Wed Mar 19, 2008 11:20 pm UTC

They're already offering you a professional development event. Something which actively makes you better at your job and an offering which ethically, a professional generally has no qualms accepting.

A professional development event is fundamentally different than, say, a corporate-sponsored golf tournament. The professional development event already offers something for the doctor's time - the tournament is bribery.
So, I like talking. So if you want to talk about something with me, feel free to send me a PM.

My blog, now rarely updated.

Image

User avatar
Kizyr
Posts: 2070
Joined: Wed Nov 15, 2006 4:16 am UTC
Location: Virginia
Contact:

Re: "Restless Leg Syndrome"

Postby Kizyr » Wed Mar 19, 2008 11:39 pm UTC

Indon wrote:They're already offering you a professional development event. Something which actively makes you better at your job and an offering which ethically, a professional generally has no qualms accepting.
A professional development event is fundamentally different than, say, a corporate-sponsored golf tournament. The professional development event already offers something for the doctor's time - the tournament is bribery.

Belial wrote:
Indon wrote:Do drug companies take doctors out to dinner and such?

Or they through lavishly catered conferences at the hospital itself.
My mom was an RN. I still have hundreds of pens from those conferences. Each with a different drug's name on it.

This has actually been changing drastically in the last several years. A lot of people have taken notice of it, and it's become harder for drug reps to offer lavish free dinners and the like. Particularly since more and more people are tying the dollars spent on advertising to rising costs of medicine.

There're a lot of physicians in my own family. And, the free lunch thing, while pretty common while I was growing up, has really cut off in the last 3-4 years.

Coincidentally, this subject just came up the other day when my mother was visiting. I was a bit surprised my own self that this has been changing. KF
~Kizyr
Image

User avatar
Belial
A terrible sound heard from a distance
Posts: 30450
Joined: Sat Apr 15, 2006 4:04 am UTC
Contact:

Re: "Restless Leg Syndrome"

Postby Belial » Wed Mar 19, 2008 11:41 pm UTC

...cool. I didn't know that. Mom kindof dropped out of the hospital scene 5 or 10 years ago, so I missed that development.
addams wrote:A drunk neighbor is better than a sober Belial.


They/them

User avatar
Indon
Posts: 4433
Joined: Thu Oct 18, 2007 5:21 pm UTC
Location: Alabama :(
Contact:

Re: "Restless Leg Syndrome"

Postby Indon » Thu Mar 20, 2008 12:14 am UTC

Indeed, it's nice to hear of ethical standards increasing somewhere.
So, I like talking. So if you want to talk about something with me, feel free to send me a PM.

My blog, now rarely updated.

Image

Madison
Posts: 5
Joined: Wed Jun 14, 2006 8:52 pm UTC
Location: Virginia

Re: "Restless Leg Syndrome"

Postby Madison » Thu Mar 20, 2008 2:29 am UTC

Back to the legitimacy of Restless Leg Syndrome (RLS): it's a little glib to assume that the pharmaceutical industry is medicalizing something as trivial as fidgetiness. RLS has been identified for quite a long time, and can have a fairly significant effect on quality of life for people who experience its severe forms. It's very difficult to describe how it feels, but people usually say that they have an unbearable need to move their legs, and it's not pain or itch, but just a need to move.

Talus
Posts: 21
Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2008 7:01 pm UTC

Re: "Restless Leg Syndrome"

Postby Talus » Thu Mar 20, 2008 3:50 am UTC

Aluminus wrote:Agreed, but no one should base their need for a pill on what they see on the television. If someone really wants a pill, then they should go ahead and buy it, but really see a doctor first. And if it's in the DSM, then it must be important for some people that there is a pill now.
It's just a shame that drug companies are allowed such sketchy practices. They could invent a (false) illness if they wanted, they have the resources. Thankfully, there are researchers whose job it is to investigate illnesses.

Image


I recently discovered this web comic through xkcd, and I love it already. in fact, I would say it's nearly as good [as xkcd].
I hadn't seen this latest one yet when I posted rls thing. I think there is more to these web comic artists than meets the eye >.>

edited for clarity

User avatar
Darcey
Posts: 188
Joined: Sun May 13, 2007 9:47 pm UTC
Location: Rochester, NY
Contact:

Re: "Restless Leg Syndrome"

Postby Darcey » Thu Mar 20, 2008 3:52 am UTC

I have been taking Seroquel for about four years as an antipsychotic. I usually take the pills right before bed because they have a sedating effect, but sometimes I stay up reading in my bed before I actually fall asleep, and I invariably notice that a little while after taking the pills my legs start to feel really strange. It feels like I need to move them around but doing that doesn't help. At that point I usually say "ok, enough reading" and go to bed. I wake up fine in the morning.

A few months ago I mentioned this to my dad in passing and he said "Oh, that's very interesting. I read somewhere that restless leg syndrome is caused by improper serotonin(sp?) levels and Seroquel affects serotonin levels."

Recently I was reading the wikipedia article on Seroquel and it mentioned that in addition to being an antipsychotic, it's also used to treat a number of other diseases, including RLS. Go figure.

Anyway because I have had the symptoms and because they were influenced by a change in the amount of one of my neurotransmitters, I wouldn't be surprised if the disease were legitimate and caused by a serotonin imbalance.

Talus
Posts: 21
Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2008 7:01 pm UTC

Re: "Restless Leg Syndrome"

Postby Talus » Thu Mar 20, 2008 4:23 am UTC

Thankyou everyone for your great comments so far everyone. For anyone interested in the way our drug industry works, I would highly recommend the book America's Other Drug Problem by Arnold S. Relman and Marcia Angell. It explains a lot of things, including how they market their drugs. With respect, I would especially recommend it to 22/7 :wink:

User avatar
22/7
I'm pretty sure I have "The Slavery In My Asshole" on DVD.
Posts: 6475
Joined: Fri Jul 06, 2007 3:30 pm UTC
Location: 127.0.0.1

Re: "Restless Leg Syndrome"

Postby 22/7 » Thu Mar 20, 2008 6:18 pm UTC

Indon wrote:They're already offering you a professional development event. Something which actively makes you better at your job and an offering which ethically, a professional generally has no qualms accepting.

A professional development event is fundamentally different than, say, a corporate-sponsored golf tournament. The professional development event already offers something for the doctor's time - the tournament is bribery.

It's a professional development event that happens every time a new drug comes out. And you're expected to learn the information on your own dime, and take the time out of your personal life, because you wouldn't want it to affect your availability to your patients. I agree that they should stay up on current techniques (most hospitals require that doctors go to a certain number of continuing medical education (CMEs) events each year. The hospital usually pays for it. I'll bet those doctors will try to misdiagnose and run unnecessary tests to create revenue because of it), I disagree that they should do it for free, especially with the frequency of new drugs that come out.
Kizyr wrote:Particularly since more and more people are tying the dollars spent on advertising to rising costs of medicine.
Which kind of pisses me off. A drug company spends hundreds of millions of dollars developing drugs which will probably be useless and when one of them does end up being useful, by gawd I want it for 10 cents a pill.
Indon wrote:Indeed, it's nice to hear of ethical standards increasing somewhere.
While it's probably true that some doctors are swayed by a dinner here and there, any person with decent morals won't be. And if you're worried about whether your doctor is morally upright enough not to prescribe you the wrong medicine because of a few dinners, then why are you going to him?
Talus wrote:Thankyou everyone for your great comments so far everyone. For anyone interested in the way our drug industry works, I would highly recommend the book America's Other Drug Problem by Arnold S. Relman and Marcia Angell. It explains a lot of things, including how they market their drugs. With respect, I would especially recommend it to 22/7 :wink:
I appreciate the suggestion, but you'll understand if I don't have time to read it right now.
Totally not a hypothetical...

Steroid wrote:
bigglesworth wrote:If your economic reality is a choice, then why are you not as rich as Bill Gates?
Don't want to be.
I want to be!

Talus
Posts: 21
Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2008 7:01 pm UTC

Re: "Restless Leg Syndrome"

Postby Talus » Fri Mar 21, 2008 4:33 am UTC

22/7 wrote:
Kizyr wrote:Particularly since more and more people are tying the dollars spent on advertising to rising costs of medicine.

Which kind of pisses me off. A drug company spends hundreds of millions of dollars developing drugs which will probably be useless and when one of them does end up being useful, by gawd I want it for 10 cents a pill.

Wait, you're saying that its a good thing that they are spending millions on potentially useless drugs? Also, even the drug companies themselves admit that they spend 35% of their budget on marketing, (according to the book I recommended, it's actually significantly higher, more like 50% when you take into account a good deal of marketing posing as Research and Development). This is a huge amount of money to "let people know about something". especially if, as you said yourself, the drugs are mostly of the useless variety.

22/7 wrote:
Talus wrote:Thankyou everyone for your great comments so far everyone. For anyone interested in the way our drug industry works, I would highly recommend the book America's Other Drug Problem by Arnold S. Relman and Marcia Angell. It explains a lot of things, including how they market their drugs. With respect, I would especially recommend it to 22/7 :wink:

I appreciate the suggestion, but you'll understand if I don't have time to read it right now.


of course. I just think it would be a good idea if you looked at some good solid research from the anti-drug co. peoples, just so you have a more balanced viewpoint. Conversely, if you have some literature that supports your point of view, I would happy to read it if you were to link it to me :)

User avatar
Steve
Posts: 156
Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2007 1:39 am UTC
Location: University of Virginia
Contact:

Re: "Restless Leg Syndrome"

Postby Steve » Fri Mar 21, 2008 6:35 am UTC

Talus wrote:Wait, you're saying that its a good thing that they are spending millions on potentially useless drugs? Also, even the drug companies themselves admit that they spend 35% of their budget on marketing, (according to the book I recommended, it's actually significantly higher, more like 50% when you take into account a good deal of marketing posing as Research and Development). This is a huge amount of money to "let people know about something". especially if, as you said yourself, the drugs are mostly of the useless variety.


Just be aware you are using 'useless' in the wrong context here. A large amount of money is spent in developing working drugs, but as a byproduct a lot of useless combinations must be tested as well. A good analogy would be the development of the space program. A lot of rockets were crashed and developed before anyone actually went to space. Think of each new drug as a whole new space program.
John Hancock

User avatar
notzeb
Without Warning
Posts: 629
Joined: Thu Mar 08, 2007 5:44 am UTC
Location: a series of tubes

Re: "Restless Leg Syndrome"

Postby notzeb » Fri Mar 21, 2008 7:04 am UTC

Belial wrote:My mom was an RN. I still have hundreds of pens from those conferences. Each with a different drug's name on it.
Pens! Awesome! Where are these conferences? (I swear, one day someone's gonna buy the secret to factoring large numbers off me with a single box of mechanical pencils that don't suck.)

On topic: I jiggle my foot up and down sometimes. Mostly due to lack of writing implements, though... I doubt the drugs would help with that.
Zµ«V­jÕ«ZµjÖ­Zµ«VµjÕ­ZµkV­ZÕ«VµjÖ­Zµ«V­jÕ«ZµjÖ­ZÕ«VµjÕ­ZµkV­ZÕ«VµjÖ­Zµ«V­jÕ«ZµjÖ­ZÕ«VµjÕ­ZµkV­ZÕ«ZµjÖ­Zµ«V­jÕ«ZµjÖ­ZÕ«VµjÕ­Z

User avatar
22/7
I'm pretty sure I have "The Slavery In My Asshole" on DVD.
Posts: 6475
Joined: Fri Jul 06, 2007 3:30 pm UTC
Location: 127.0.0.1

Re: "Restless Leg Syndrome"

Postby 22/7 » Sat Mar 22, 2008 6:27 pm UTC

Talus wrote:
22/7 wrote:
Kizyr wrote:Particularly since more and more people are tying the dollars spent on advertising to rising costs of medicine.

Which kind of pisses me off. A drug company spends hundreds of millions of dollars developing drugs which will probably be useless and when one of them does end up being useful, by gawd I want it for 10 cents a pill.

Wait, you're saying that its a good thing that they are spending millions on potentially useless drugs? Also, even the drug companies themselves admit that they spend 35% of their budget on marketing, (according to the book I recommended, it's actually significantly higher, more like 50% when you take into account a good deal of marketing posing as Research and Development). This is a huge amount of money to "let people know about something". especially if, as you said yourself, the drugs are mostly of the useless variety.
Steve kind of already took care of this, but yeah, your working definition of "useless" is flawed. They are useless in that they don't end up becoming a drug that will do anything and therefore won't be profitable. However, most people don't give a god-damn that it took them 10 years and 150 million dollars to develop, test, and get the drug approved. They just want it for as cheap as possible. Which is fine, free market and all that, but we also require the drug company (which is publicly traded) to do everything it can to maximize its profits for its investors.
Totally not a hypothetical...

Steroid wrote:
bigglesworth wrote:If your economic reality is a choice, then why are you not as rich as Bill Gates?
Don't want to be.
I want to be!

User avatar
Indon
Posts: 4433
Joined: Thu Oct 18, 2007 5:21 pm UTC
Location: Alabama :(
Contact:

Re: "Restless Leg Syndrome"

Postby Indon » Sun Mar 23, 2008 9:10 pm UTC

22/7 wrote:While it's probably true that some doctors are swayed by a dinner here and there, any person with decent morals won't be. And if you're worried about whether your doctor is morally upright enough not to prescribe you the wrong medicine because of a few dinners, then why are you going to him?


Ethical standards aren't about individuals. A perfectly moral, upstanding person can perform unethical actions easily in a professional capacity because of the professional environment he is in.

Professional Ethics are Serious Business.

22/7 wrote:Which is fine, free market and all that, but we also require the drug company (which is publicly traded) to do everything it can to maximize its profits for its investors.


Another reason why ethics are so important - there can conceivably be market pressure directly opposing ethical actions.
So, I like talking. So if you want to talk about something with me, feel free to send me a PM.

My blog, now rarely updated.

Image

User avatar
22/7
I'm pretty sure I have "The Slavery In My Asshole" on DVD.
Posts: 6475
Joined: Fri Jul 06, 2007 3:30 pm UTC
Location: 127.0.0.1

Re: "Restless Leg Syndrome"

Postby 22/7 » Mon Mar 24, 2008 2:27 pm UTC

Indon wrote:
22/7 wrote:While it's probably true that some doctors are swayed by a dinner here and there, any person with decent morals won't be. And if you're worried about whether your doctor is morally upright enough not to prescribe you the wrong medicine because of a few dinners, then why are you going to him?


Ethical standards aren't about individuals. A perfectly moral, upstanding person can perform unethical actions easily in a professional capacity because of the professional environment he is in.

Professional Ethics are Serious Business.
I agree with you. I was simply addressing the point about a given person's personal care provider. Either you buy the "they do this get the doctors to write more scripts, which of course they would only do if they got a cut" or you don't. If you do, and you honestly believe that your personal doctor would do that, then why are you going to him?

22/7 wrote:Which is fine, free market and all that, but we also require the drug company (which is publicly traded) to do everything it can to maximize its profits for its investors.


Another reason why ethics are so important - there can conceivably be market pressure directly opposing ethical actions.[/quote]Absolutely they can be. But to call for their heads because they're trying to make as much money as possible is, well, ridiculous.
Totally not a hypothetical...

Steroid wrote:
bigglesworth wrote:If your economic reality is a choice, then why are you not as rich as Bill Gates?
Don't want to be.
I want to be!

User avatar
mosc
Doesn't care what you think.
Posts: 5403
Joined: Fri May 11, 2007 3:03 pm UTC

Re: "Restless Leg Syndrome"

Postby mosc » Mon Mar 24, 2008 8:18 pm UTC

how is this different than any other capitalist enterprise? Every new product has to a) justify it's need on the market and b) promote knowledge of it's existence, completely separate from the actual product's purpose. Sure if you come up with the cure for cancer you may not have trouble on a and b may take care of itself but those two are still there is spades.

Point being that drug companies aren't government run research labs. They're for profit. We seem to not mind this at all as a society when they stick to drugs that fulfill a known and pressing need but that's not capitalism. If you can justify a need on the market, you can have a profitable product. Lets face the truth here. Things like cancer and aids and malaria drug research are huge high risk investments. A company can't survive doing that kind of thing. We need them to be more capitalist on things like RLS drugs so they have the resources to keep looking at the big stuff. Also, it's worth pointing out that a lot of these drugs, viagra being a great example, were created accidentally while trying to combat more "serious" diseases. Is it so bad for these companies to try and make a few bucks off of their dead ends?

If you feel strongly that there is a public interest in combating x disease, you might consider pushing to spend your tax dollars on it rather than blaming capitalism. The beauty of allowing a little bit of socialism (suck it you libertarian pansies) is having an avenue to effectively put money behind your ethics. Stop counting on for-profit drug companies to behave so differently. Think of them more like one of those companies you see do TV infomercials for steak knives or something. It's a much more similar business model.
Title: It was given by the XKCD moderators to me because they didn't care what I thought (I made some rantings, etc). I care what YOU think, the joke is forums.xkcd doesn't care what I think.

User avatar
22/7
I'm pretty sure I have "The Slavery In My Asshole" on DVD.
Posts: 6475
Joined: Fri Jul 06, 2007 3:30 pm UTC
Location: 127.0.0.1

Re: "Restless Leg Syndrome"

Postby 22/7 » Mon Mar 24, 2008 9:57 pm UTC

mosc wrote:how is this different than any other capitalist enterprise? Every new product has to a) justify it's need on the market and b) promote knowledge of it's existence, completely separate from the actual product's purpose. Sure if you come up with the cure for cancer you may not have trouble on a and b may take care of itself but those two are still there is spades.

Point being that drug companies aren't government run research labs. They're for profit. We seem to not mind this at all as a society when they stick to drugs that fulfill a known and pressing need but that's not capitalism. If you can justify a need on the market, you can have a profitable product. Lets face the truth here. Things like cancer and aids and malaria drug research are huge high risk investments. A company can't survive doing that kind of thing. We need them to be more capitalist on things like RLS drugs so they have the resources to keep looking at the big stuff. Also, it's worth pointing out that a lot of these drugs, viagra being a great example, were created accidentally while trying to combat more "serious" diseases. Is it so bad for these companies to try and make a few bucks off of their dead ends?

If you feel strongly that there is a public interest in combating x disease, you might consider pushing to spend your tax dollars on it rather than blaming capitalism. The beauty of allowing a little bit of socialism (suck it you libertarian pansies) is having an avenue to effectively put money behind your ethics. Stop counting on for-profit drug companies to behave so differently. Think of them more like one of those companies you see do TV infomercials for steak knives or something. It's a much more similar business model.

I'm not one to QFT very often, but thank you.
Totally not a hypothetical...

Steroid wrote:
bigglesworth wrote:If your economic reality is a choice, then why are you not as rich as Bill Gates?
Don't want to be.
I want to be!


Return to “News & Articles”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: CorruptUser and 22 guests