ANZAC day

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Yakk
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ANZAC day

Postby Yakk » Fri Apr 25, 2008 4:31 pm UTC

I'm not from down there, but I ran into ANZAC day today, and did some looking up.

WWI Casualties:
http://europeanhistory.about.com/librar ... stable.htm
WWII Casualties:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties

During WWI, Australia and New Zealand troops suffered about a 2/3 casualty rate. 2/3 of the people who went off to war came back dead or wounded.

That was a bloody bloody war, wasn't it?
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Last edited by JHVH on Fri Oct 23, 4004 BCE 6:17 pm, edited 6 times in total.

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Re: ANZAC day

Postby Hawknc » Fri Apr 25, 2008 5:02 pm UTC

Lest we forget.

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Re: ANZAC day

Postby Jack Saladin » Sat Apr 26, 2008 4:47 am UTC

New Zealand casualty rates were abnormally high, mainly because of our Government letting the UK use them as cannon-fodder in order to secure dairy product markets.

Seriously.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/4496897a1861.html
http://norightturn.blogspot.com/2008/04/anzac-day.html
http://inastrangeland.wordpress.com/200 ... y-atheist/

So our government, and that of the UK, utterly fucked over the lives of 10% of our population, for an imperialistic war that was waged for solely economic purposes. Remember, this was WWI. Not WWII. There was no Hitler, there were only butter deals.

And now we celebrate it every year in a day long military wankfest. Most depressing day of the year.

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Re: ANZAC day

Postby JayDee » Sat Apr 26, 2008 6:36 am UTC

It almosts frightens me, to be honest. Growing up, I swear I didn't see the level of mindless nationalism / patriotism / whatnot that I see around ANZAC day and Australia Day lately.

I was reading something last year (Defending the National Tuckshop) that included a discussion on how the ANZAC image came about, which doesn't make me feel any better about it.
Last edited by JayDee on Sun Apr 27, 2008 12:54 am UTC, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: ANZAC day

Postby Bruce » Sat Apr 26, 2008 6:52 am UTC

JayDee: I do not think it was always this bad. In recent years 'participation' (however you may care to measure such a thing) has been climbing rapidly. I do not believe the same can be said for understanding. I avoid all contact with the event. Unfortunately this can be seen as a disgraceful thing to do by some.
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Re: ANZAC day

Postby Yakk » Sat Apr 26, 2008 1:27 pm UTC

To be fair, the UK lost 44% of the troops it mobalized, and France 75%, and Russia 55%.

I didn't know it was a "go go military" day -- I thought it was more like the upside-down-land version of Canada's Rememberance day, or the US Veteran's day. Waltzing seemed to be a dirge about the pointlessness of war...
One of the painful things about our time is that those who feel certainty are stupid, and those with any imagination and understanding are filled with doubt and indecision - BR

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Re: ANZAC day

Postby Hawknc » Sat Apr 26, 2008 6:09 pm UTC

It depends who you talk to. A lot of us take the line of "remember the screw-ups of the past so we don't repeat them in future", but in recent years it has taken on a much more unsavoury patriotic nature.

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Re: ANZAC day

Postby JayDee » Sun Apr 27, 2008 12:54 am UTC

Bruce wrote:JayDee: I do not think it was always this bad. In recent years 'participation' (however you may care to measure such a thing) has been climbing rapidly.
Yeah, I'm just never sure if it's a difference between what I remember as a kid and what I see as an adult.
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Re: ANZAC day

Postby zealo » Sun Apr 27, 2008 11:52 am UTC

but in recent years it has taken on a much more unsavoury patriotic nature.


elaborate? :S
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Re: ANZAC day

Postby Jack Saladin » Sun Apr 27, 2008 12:45 pm UTC

See teh linx in my first post for information on that and more.

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Re: ANZAC day

Postby Indon » Sun Apr 27, 2008 2:41 pm UTC

Hawknc wrote:It depends who you talk to. A lot of us take the line of "remember the screw-ups of the past so we don't repeat them in future", but in recent years it has taken on a much more unsavoury patriotic nature.


You might be catching something from the US, perhaps.

*sneezes*

We're getting over it, though.
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Re: ANZAC day

Postby Yakk » Sun Apr 27, 2008 4:13 pm UTC

Fearbears?! wrote:http://www.stuff.co.nz/4496897a1861.html


The author would have me believe that a single politician's slant on war losses turned NZ folk from "thinkers" into "doers", and generated an anti-intellectual pro-sports bias in the nation. That's a pretty damn strong claim...

Which then leads into a connection with a local tragedy of fools swimming in a river gorge unsupervised and dying, and ham-handed equivalences with the war.

http://norightturn.blogspot.com/2008/04/anzac-day.html
http://inastrangeland.wordpress.com/200 ... y-atheist/
For those who doubt that ANZAC Day is religious, consider this. Think about the way that our businesses and schools are closed, so that there is time to attend the ceremonials. Think about how our news services provide blanket coverage of them. Think about the way that our political leaders, and even the most humble politicians, local body governors, ensure that they attend the ceremonies, and are photographed doing so.


These are the marks of Ritual. It is true that Ritual is usually used for religious purposes, but equating Ritual with religion seems more than a bit of a stretch.

If we truly want to honour the dead, then our resolve must be to make it stop. No more deaths of young men and young women in battle. That is the memorial that the ANZACs deserve.


Absolute pacifism is suicide.

We revere the men who died in battle, but where is the reverence for the women who died in childbirth?


...

So our government, and that of the UK, utterly fucked over the lives of 10% of our population, for an imperialistic war that was waged for solely economic purposes. Remember, this was WWI. Not WWII. There was no Hitler, there were only butter deals.


This also leads to some questions. Is there any question, whose balance is economic cost or benefit, that is worth fighting a war over? Having a single person die in seeking it?
One of the painful things about our time is that those who feel certainty are stupid, and those with any imagination and understanding are filled with doubt and indecision - BR

Last edited by JHVH on Fri Oct 23, 4004 BCE 6:17 pm, edited 6 times in total.

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Re: ANZAC day

Postby Jack Saladin » Sun Apr 27, 2008 10:08 pm UTC

This also leads to some questions. Is there any question, whose balance is economic cost or benefit, that is worth fighting a war over? Having a single person die in seeking it?

Huh? I don't get what you're asking.

And yes, those articles aren't perfect by any stretch of the imagination, but they're the best I can find on short notice. There's probably a well written book somewhere on the subject if you're interested.

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Re: ANZAC day

Postby Wormwood » Tue Apr 29, 2008 11:45 am UTC

I slept at my mates place the night before ANZAC day, and woke up early. When I went outside, they were all preparing for the Parade along Queen Street, in Richmond, New Zealand. I sat in my car and read a book until it was time for work. The only benefit I can see is that I got time and a half at work. I don't see any other point in the entire exercise.
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Re: ANZAC day

Postby Ari » Thu May 01, 2008 12:26 am UTC

Hawknc wrote:Lest we forget.


Quite, but there are also a lot of other things that we shouldn't forget that don't have national holidays and overseas (from the NZ perspective) memorials.

People who die giving humanitarian aid, especially in warzones, don't receive this kind of honour.
Women who die in childbirth aren't remembered as consistently as soldiers.
The people who we exploit and leave to starve for oil and commodities aren't even paid this much attention while they're alive.

The slaughter of our soldiers is important, but it shouldn't be considered quite as important to our country as some of the other sacrifices made for our values and our way of life.

Fearbears?! wrote:New Zealand casualty rates were abnormally high, mainly because of our Government letting the UK use them as cannon-fodder in order to secure dairy product markets.

Seriously.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/4496897a1861.html
http://norightturn.blogspot.com/2008/04/anzac-day.html
http://inastrangeland.wordpress.com/200 ... y-atheist/

So our government, and that of the UK, utterly fucked over the lives of 10% of our population, for an imperialistic war that was waged for solely economic purposes. Remember, this was WWI. Not WWII. There was no Hitler, there were only butter deals.

And now we celebrate it every year in a day long military wankfest. Most depressing day of the year.


Well, I'm with you in that it was poorly managed, wholesale throwaway of lives, but I'd have to disagree that the war was entirely imperialistic. While that was how it was justified at the time, it did stop fascist militarism in Europe, which is somewhat redeeming.

I also think most of the young people remembering the day do it to remember exactly this kind of fact about the cost of wars, and why we should be avoiding them where possible. So I disagree that the day is actually just a military wankfest, even if there is a lot of very chauvinistic patriotism involved.
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Re: ANZAC day

Postby Yakk » Thu May 01, 2008 12:46 am UTC

Fearbears?! wrote:
This also leads to some questions. Is there any question, whose balance is economic cost or benefit, that is worth fighting a war over? Having a single person die in seeking it?
Huh? I don't get what you're asking.

And yes, those articles aren't perfect by any stretch of the imagination, but they're the best I can find on short notice. There's probably a well written book somewhere on the subject if you're interested.

Ah. When you responded to requests for clarification with saying "go look at the linked articles", I presumed they reflected your opinions. If you don't actually agree with the links you referred to when asked about the issue, I see no reason to ask about details of those articles.

If you aren't actually expressing your opinion via those links, it's perfectly OK. I was just confused!

In short: the articles where pretty crappy, and didn't give me an understanding of why ANZAC day is so evil. The arguments that where used in support of demonizing ANZAC day seemed at various points repugnant, poor, or shallow at first glance. My post was an attempt to point out flaws in their positions that where "low hanging fruit", and attempting to see if I misunderstood the position reflected fundamentally.

In any case, I shed a tear for those who died, and had a reminder of the costs of war.
One of the painful things about our time is that those who feel certainty are stupid, and those with any imagination and understanding are filled with doubt and indecision - BR

Last edited by JHVH on Fri Oct 23, 4004 BCE 6:17 pm, edited 6 times in total.


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