Photographs of un-contacted tribe make the news...

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Re: Photographs of un-contacted tribe make the news...

Postby wery67564 » Mon Jun 09, 2008 4:41 pm UTC

4=5 wrote:
Gunfingers wrote:Have we done it since smallpox blankets were all the rage?

well Australia seems the most recent, how did that turn out?


Even better, why use smallpox when you have foreign interests giving you submachine guns!

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Re: Photographs of un-contacted tribe make the news...

Postby Dream » Tue Jun 10, 2008 2:12 am UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:But this is a people that could potentially be lost forever, possibly some of the last vestiges of humanity pre-western influence. They are ISOLATED, their mythologies and beliefs and technologies and songs and customs are UNAFFECTED by ours. Doesn't that make you curious? Isn't that worth hearing about, or asking about, or recording? I think we owe it to them to preserve their culture, and I think there are ways to document them without ruining them.


If you value this isolation and unaffectedness, why would you advocate a course of action that is almost certain to destroy it? It is naive to assume it could be different this time, as it seems that all previous occasions have ruined the contacted tribe's culture.
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Re: Photographs of un-contacted tribe make the news...

Postby poxic » Wed Jun 11, 2008 8:10 am UTC

Dream wrote:If you value this isolation and unaffectedness, why would you advocate a course of action that is almost certain to destroy it? It is naive to assume it could be different this time, as it seems that all previous occasions have ruined the contacted tribe's culture.


This is more or less what bothers me. We've mucked up every time we've made contact with tribes, as far as I know. (Mucking-up occurs between kingdoms and nations, too, though in different ways.) If we kept track of how it was done and tried to improve our record, in a scientific manner, I'm not sure we'd get to perfection before all of our possible test cases were wiped out by the mumps.

(My comment about plague has been dutifully shot down, but I still doubt that, as a species, we're better off all assimilated into a monoculture. Could an end-of-civilisation event leave uncontacted peoples alive and well? Probably not, but my inner romantic refuses to accept that. *inner tantrum*)
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Re: Photographs of un-contacted tribe make the news...

Postby Izawwlgood » Wed Jun 11, 2008 2:46 pm UTC

Dream wrote:If you value this isolation and unaffectedness, why would you advocate a course of action that is almost certain to destroy it? It is naive to assume it could be different this time, as it seems that all previous occasions have ruined the contacted tribe's culture.


My bold. I think the burden of proof for an all encompassing claim is on you with this bud.

While I'm sure this comment will be taken wrongly, I'm going to venture it anyhow: Anthropologists have been observing primates in the wild for a long time without 'ruining' their culture.

Additionally, I'm sure there where TONS of ventures to 'isolated' tribes that were purely for curiosity sake, and involved more more then "Hey nice bowl, I like your woven skirt, this, oh this is a bracelet my father gave me, what's that, your father gave you a bracelet too? Lets trade!"

Just because missionaries HAVE foisted religion on tribes in the past doesn't mean they are ALL evil. Just because contact HAS resulted in a break down of the original culture does not mean it ALWAYS does.

I'm sure everyone's read Speaker for the Dead by Orson Scott Card? The scientists speaking to the pequenos where not doing anything novel, and they were doing a mostly good job (in the beginning of the book anyway) of learning from them without ruining their culture.

poxic wrote:If we kept track of how it was done and tried to improve our record, in a scientific manner, I'm not sure we'd get to perfection before all of our possible test cases were wiped out by the mumps.


You know, measles has been wiped out. Because a cross-infection is possible however, it doesn't strike me as a stretch to not only vaccinate the scientists doing the questioning, but to dope them with a high amount of antibiotics to kill anything off they may be carrying.
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Re: Photographs of un-contacted tribe make the news...

Postby ascendingPig » Wed Jun 11, 2008 11:30 pm UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:I'm sure everyone's read Speaker for the Dead by Orson Scott Card? The scientists speaking to the pequenos where not doing anything novel, and they were doing a mostly good job (in the beginning of the book anyway) of learning from them without ruining their culture.

If my memory serves me, there was a big deal about how even at the beginning they couldn't really preserve pequeno culture. The moment they were in there, the pigs wanted to know about their society. The characters couldn't withhold all the information the piggies were begging for even at the start of the book, and the piggies knew far more about human culture than they were supposed to. Could we withhold that information while living among the indigenous peoples?

SHOULD we, if they're begging for our knowledge?
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Re: Photographs of un-contacted tribe make the news...

Postby Izawwlgood » Thu Jun 12, 2008 5:33 am UTC

Well, no, that being the original point I was trying to make, but suppose they are isolating themselves intentionally, then I still believe we can contact them without ruining them. We don't have to live with them.
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Re: Photographs of un-contacted tribe make the news...

Postby Dream » Thu Jun 12, 2008 7:56 am UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:
Dream wrote:If you value this isolation and unaffectedness, why would you advocate a course of action that is almost certain to destroy it? It is naive to assume it could be different this time, as it seems that all previous occasions have ruined the contacted tribe's culture.


My bold. I think the burden of proof for an all encompassing claim is on you with this bud.

Wrong emphasis. Fixed. And I'm talking about the Amazonian tribes specifically. You can't magic away the damage that has been done to them, and you can't point to any of the things you initailly claimed were good reasons for them benefitting from contact actually happening to anyone there.

Also, if you're right about so much contact going on around the world witout anyone coming to harm, why would we need to contact this particular tribe? It doesn't seem important to visit just one more if there is so much good going on already.
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Re: Photographs of un-contacted tribe make the news...

Postby Izawwlgood » Thu Jun 12, 2008 4:07 pm UTC

I don't really want to contact them for the sake of bettering them. People have rightly pointed out that these people aren't going to be really benefiting from modern civilization in any real way. But I am curious about their myths and such.

I grew up watching Discovery Channel movie specials, and one of my favorites was a documentary on these pygmy forest tribesmen, the Baka people. A group of anthropologists had filmed them just doing stuff, from fertility ceremonies/treatments, harvesting honeycomb, smoking out a termite mound, playing music, fishing, just being pygmy forest people. And it was fascinating, and raised tons of money for preservation.

African forest tribes are likely WILDLY different from South American forest tribes, and I'd love to see a documentary.

Everyone's seen the Where the Hell is Matt video ya? It's beautiful, click on the link. That singing you hear is a recording made a while back from one of the last surviving members of a Pacific Islander tribe, and is the only recording in existence of the tribes lore. Mull over that for a second.

I think we owe it to these people to be heard, if only to a recorder and a few people. If they want to remain isolated, great, all power to them. If a few want to leave, that's fine, you can't really believe that as far back as their legends go they've all lived in the same village and never left, nor seen anyone outside their village? But we shouldn't let them vanish with only an aerial photo to their memory.
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Re: Photographs of un-contacted tribe make the news...

Postby Freakish » Fri Jun 13, 2008 2:08 am UTC

If they died out tomorrow how much of there culture do you think would actually survive.
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Re: Photographs of un-contacted tribe make the news...

Postby zealo » Fri Jun 13, 2008 12:35 pm UTC

Dream wrote:
Izawwlgood wrote:
Dream wrote:If you value this isolation and unaffectedness, why would you advocate a course of action that is almost certain to destroy it? It is naive to assume it could be different this time, as it seems that all previous occasions have ruined the contacted tribe's culture.


My bold. I think the burden of proof for an all encompassing claim is on you with this bud.

Wrong emphasis. Fixed. And I'm talking about the Amazonian tribes specifically. You can't magic away the damage that has been done to them, and you can't point to any of the things you initailly claimed were good reasons for them benefitting from contact actually happening to anyone there.

Also, if you're right about so much contact going on around the world witout anyone coming to harm, why would we need to contact this particular tribe? It doesn't seem important to visit just one more if there is so much good going on already.

so your argument is basically 'if the other tribes we've contacted have ended up worse, we should leave them alone, but if they have ended up better, we should leave them alone'
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Re: Photographs of un-contacted tribe make the news...

Postby DragonWrangler » Mon Jun 23, 2008 3:20 pm UTC

Bump with update!
http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,23 ... 09,00.html
Apparently it was a publicity stunt to raise awareness about logging in the region.

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Re: Photographs of un-contacted tribe make the news...

Postby poxic » Mon Jun 23, 2008 10:23 pm UTC

*%$^#@! stunt going and getting us all *%$^#@! riled up about whether to *%$^#@! contact a supposed *%$^#@! uncontacted *%$^#@! tribe.

(Okay, I'm not that bitter. I just really like ctrl-V today.)

That said, this is an ongoing issue in the Amazon. There is lots and lots of acreage there that has never seen a non-native human, and lots of motivation for people to push logging further into these areas.
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Re: Photographs of un-contacted tribe make the news...

Postby (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻ » Tue Jun 24, 2008 11:37 am UTC

Dear Diary,

This week, parts of the scientific community got punk'd.

What is up with that?

Love,

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Re: Photographs of un-contacted tribe make the news...

Postby 22/7 » Tue Jun 24, 2008 2:28 pm UTC

Do you pronounce that like "Moxie" or "Moe-ie"?
Totally not a hypothetical...

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Re: Photographs of un-contacted tribe make the news...

Postby Hawknc » Tue Jun 24, 2008 2:29 pm UTC

I always thought it was like "Mosey".

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Re: Photographs of un-contacted tribe make the news...

Postby (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻ » Tue Jun 24, 2008 2:40 pm UTC

Hawk is correct.
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Re: Photographs of un-contacted tribe make the news...

Postby 22/7 » Tue Jun 24, 2008 3:30 pm UTC

In that case, you should get a t-shirt explaining that you don't walk, you Meauxie.
Totally not a hypothetical...

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Re: Photographs of un-contacted tribe make the news...

Postby Jesse » Tue Jun 24, 2008 3:37 pm UTC

Beaue, y'know. Witty t-shirts...love me, etc.

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Re: Photographs of un-contacted tribe make the news...

Postby (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻ » Tue Jun 24, 2008 4:33 pm UTC

nah, if there's one thing I know, it's that they don't make t-shirts witty enough to cause people to love me.
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Re: Photographs of un-contacted tribe make the news...

Postby 22/7 » Tue Jun 24, 2008 4:43 pm UTC

Meaux_Pas wrote:nah, if there's one thing I know, it's that they don't make t-shirts witty enough to cause people to love me.

Witty-t-shirt love would be kind of a pain anyway. Would it still work if you weren't wearing the shirt?
Totally not a hypothetical...

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Re: Photographs of un-contacted tribe make the news...

Postby (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻ » Tue Jun 24, 2008 5:30 pm UTC

Studies show men love me more with my shirt off.
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Re: Photographs of un-contacted tribe make the news...

Postby 22/7 » Tue Jun 24, 2008 6:05 pm UTC

That's the stuff of sigged quotes.
Totally not a hypothetical...

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Re: Photographs of un-contacted tribe make the news...

Postby poxic » Tue Jun 24, 2008 9:52 pm UTC

Followup: hoax is not a hoax, depending on who you ask.

http://www.livescience.com/strangenews/ ... tribe.html

"We said the tribe was uncontacted, not lost. We know they're there, they know we're here, but they don't want to talk to us. That's uncontacted." (not an exact quote)
In everyone's life, at some time, our inner fire goes out. It is then burst into flame by an encounter with another human being. We should all be thankful for those people who rekindle the inner spirit.
- Albert Schweitzer, philosopher, physician, musician, Nobel laureate (14 Jan 1875-1965)


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