Bill O'Reilly Rips Into Anti-Gay Lawyer

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Re: Bill O'Reilly Rips Into Anti-Gay Lawyer

Postby Clumpy » Tue Jun 03, 2008 6:31 pm UTC

3.14159265... wrote:One should not hate Bill O if one does not hate Colbert for bieng a "news entertainer".

You can agree mroe with one, or less with one, one can make you laugh, one doesn't make you laugh. Maybe you don't care at all.

It doesn't matter, they both have the same job for a different audience.

Can you think of a reason why I would be saying this? (Other than I must be a dumb person).


I believe that the point is that Colbert and O'Reilly do not attempt to do the same thing. Colbert makes indirect points but intends his commentary to be entertainment, while O'Reilly sees himself as more of a commentator. I don't think that you're a dumb person, and it's plain that there is SOME overlap between Colbert and O'Reilly, but they do not have the same job.

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Re: Bill O'Reilly Rips Into Anti-Gay Lawyer

Postby 3.14159265... » Tue Jun 03, 2008 6:51 pm UTC

I didn't say they had the same job.

I pointed out that it's ironic that Colbert fans "hate O'Reilly, love Colbert and claim higher moral and rational ground".
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Re: Bill O'Reilly Rips Into Anti-Gay Lawyer

Postby Random832 » Tue Jun 03, 2008 7:42 pm UTC

3.14159265... wrote:I didn't say they had the same job.

I pointed out that it's ironic that Colbert fans "hate O'Reilly, love Colbert and claim higher moral and rational ground".


And the fact that O'Reilly is a conservative and Colbert is a liberal couldn't possibly have anything to do with this?

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Re: Bill O'Reilly Rips Into Anti-Gay Lawyer

Postby 3.14159265... » Tue Jun 03, 2008 7:58 pm UTC

Random832 wrote:
3.14159265... wrote:I didn't say they had the same job.

I pointed out that it's ironic that Colbert fans "hate O'Reilly, love Colbert and claim higher moral and rational ground".


And the fact that O'Reilly is a conservative and Colbert is a liberal couldn't possibly have anything to do with this?

It is completely dependent on that, but that means the reason why people like/hate Colbert/O'Reilly is political affiliation. Thereby making it ironic that the viewers of the Colbert Report that was meant to show the trouble with regurgitators/'follow along band wagon' of O'Reilly do the same with Colbert.

Edited for clarity: I don't think it should be dependent on that at all, as clumpy explains in the next post. That some people do, and that they are Colbert fans at the same time is the irony that I was speaking of.
Last edited by 3.14159265... on Tue Jun 03, 2008 8:54 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Bill O'Reilly Rips Into Anti-Gay Lawyer

Postby Clumpy » Tue Jun 03, 2008 8:45 pm UTC

3.14159265... wrote:I didn't say they had the same job.

I pointed out that it's ironic that Colbert fans "hate O'Reilly, love Colbert and claim higher moral and rational ground".


All right - I'll concede that claiming higher moral ground than another because of differently-prioritized hates and interests is unnecessary. To each their own 8) .

random832 wrote:And the fact that O'Reilly is a conservative and Colbert is a liberal couldn't possibly have anything to do with this?


Shouldn't have anything to do with ideology, but with whether their opinions are consistent and well-founded. The lack of complete information on any topic pretty much precludes certainty. Thusly, I'm inclined to dislike Hannity far more than O'Reilly, and to think that Rush is pretty intelligent most of the time, as disagreeable as his opinions can be occasionally.

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Re: Bill O'Reilly Rips Into Anti-Gay Lawyer

Postby Random832 » Tue Jun 03, 2008 9:09 pm UTC

3.14159265... wrote:
Random832 wrote:
3.14159265... wrote:I didn't say they had the same job.

I pointed out that it's ironic that Colbert fans "hate O'Reilly, love Colbert and claim higher moral and rational ground".


And the fact that O'Reilly is a conservative and Colbert is a liberal couldn't possibly have anything to do with this?

It is completely dependent on that, but that means the reason why people like/hate Colbert/O'Reilly is political affiliation. Thereby making it ironic that the viewers of the Colbert Report that was meant to show the trouble with regurgitators/'follow along band wagon' of O'Reilly do the same with Colbert.


Or maybe they've seriously thought about the issues and come to the conclusion that Colbert's views are more moral and rational than O'Reilly's. Just because you agree with someone doesn't mean you're 'following along a bandwagon', liberal or conservative.

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Re: Bill O'Reilly Rips Into Anti-Gay Lawyer

Postby Belial » Tue Jun 03, 2008 9:12 pm UTC

Shouldn't have anything to do with ideology, but with whether their opinions are consistent and well-founded.


Because, as we know, logical consistency is *way* more important than being a decent or worthwhile person.
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Re: Bill O'Reilly Rips Into Anti-Gay Lawyer

Postby Chromer » Tue Jun 03, 2008 9:49 pm UTC

In case many haven't noticed...

The United States constitution has been amended to GIVE MORE RIGHTS many more times then to take them away. I'm not sure how many people saw that programming, but if California does continue to allow gay marriage then the rest of the states shall follow. We'll see this as a bigger issue later on...

My question rests with, is being gay a disease? Take a population of gay people for instance (let's say they were the only ones left), it would inhibit reproduction and cause the extinction of a species.

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Re: Bill O'Reilly Rips Into Anti-Gay Lawyer

Postby Malice » Tue Jun 03, 2008 10:02 pm UTC

Chromer wrote:My question rests with, is being gay a disease? Take a population of gay people for instance (let's say they were the only ones left), it would inhibit reproduction and cause the extinction of a species.


Let me answer* your question with another question.

"Is being male a disease? Take a population of male people for instance (let's say they were the only ones left), it would inhibit reproduction and cause the extinction of a species."

*ridicule

--

In point of fact, if there were a population of gay people, they could still have children and propagate the species. A gay person is still physical capable of procreation; and anyway, in case you haven't noticed all the homosexual couples raising children, science has given us the ability to procreate without the physical act of reproduction.

Homosexuality isn't a disease. Even if it were, and even if you decided that meant combating it, marriage would have little to do with it.
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Re: Bill O'Reilly Rips Into Anti-Gay Lawyer

Postby mazzilliu » Tue Jun 03, 2008 10:03 pm UTC

Chromer wrote:My question rests with, is being gay a disease? Take a population of gay people for instance (let's say they were the only ones left), it would inhibit reproduction and cause the extinction of a species.

i dunno i heard gay people just hated god and did it out of spite, in the hope that god would nuke our country with fire(after they made everyone else gay too).


also re: the rest of the thread, how can someone regurgitate something colbert says on his show seriously? i mean i know people that take the super right wing pundits like o'reilley seriously but i've never seen someone see colbert as anyone more then an entertainer that makes fun of flaws in logic. or makes puns. etc.
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Re: Bill O'Reilly Rips Into Anti-Gay Lawyer

Postby Chromer » Tue Jun 03, 2008 10:10 pm UTC

It could be considered a disease if it inhibited the community of gays from reproducing (by choice), lets say if males and females were mixed in a population. If they refused to mate with each other for the soul purpose of continuing the species, then it is a disease. This doesn't have to include just humans that have sexual preferences, dogs have been known to be attracted to the same sex. A population of dogs that were gay haven't the pleasure of thinking about the future existence of their species. They wouldn't yield another generation after they were gone. Possible Darwin is at work here, possibly it could only be called a disease when it is inflicted upon 'unintelligent' individuals or animals. Nevertheless it is a choice all will have to make, and I support their choice without a doubt.

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Re: Bill O'Reilly Rips Into Anti-Gay Lawyer

Postby Malice » Tue Jun 03, 2008 10:15 pm UTC

Chromer wrote:It could be considered a disease if it inhibited the community of gays from reproducing (by choice), lets say if males and females were mixed in a population. If they refused to mate with each other for the soul purpose of continuing the species, then it is a disease. This doesn't have to include just humans that have sexual preferences, dogs have been known to be attracted to the same sex. A population of dogs that were gay haven't the pleasure of thinking about the future existence of their species. They wouldn't yield another generation after they were gone. Possible Darwin is at work here, possibly it could only be called a disease when it is inflicted upon 'unintelligent' individuals or animals. Nevertheless it is a choice all will have to make, and I support their choice without a doubt.


...what?

No, really, what? You're not making sense.

For instance, how can something be, in your eyes, both a disease and a choice?

Also, a bunch of gay dogs cut off from the rest of their species isn't a disease, it's an artificial situation. Like a bunch of elderly people whose bus breaks down in the middle of the desert. Does that make old age a disease? Or buses? Or sand? You're being absurd.

If a bunch of people refused to mate with each other in order to continue the species, that's not disease, that's suicide.
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Re: Bill O'Reilly Rips Into Anti-Gay Lawyer

Postby Sebeka2 » Wed Jun 04, 2008 12:01 am UTC

Um, The O'Reilly Factor is a real news program. O'Reilly is himself and the program reflects his actual views and (generally) those of his network, Fox News. On his show, O'Reilly attempts to discuss political and social issues in a serious (if confrontational) maner. I don't know if it has won any awards, but if it did it would be under the catagory of talk show, or perhaps TV Newscast. The writers, host, and intended audience of the O'Reilly factor are conservative.

The Colbert Report is a comedy program on Comedy Central. A spinoff of The Daily Show, it's fake news, not real news, and Colbert is an actor playing a fictional anchorman with the same name, but very different political views and personality. In interviews Colbert has described his character as a "well-intentioned, poorly informed, high-status idiot". (I rather doubt O'Reilly would say the same of himself.) When the Colbert Report wins awards, it does so in the "variety, music, or comedy" category, not the news ones. No one (I hope) watches it expecting that he actually means the things he says or expects the audience to take his words at face value. Colbert (the actor) has made it very clear that his onscreen character and his show, are direct spoofs of O'Reilly and the O'Reilly Factor (prevously known as the O'Reilly Report). The writers, actors, and intended audience of the Colbert Report are liberal but Colbert (the character) is very conservative and vocal on conservative issues.

I have heard that Daily Show/Colbert Report viewers are supposed to be more intelligent/politically savvy than the audiences of the big network evening news talk shows (including the liberal ones), but 1. this only is meant to imply that the audience of the Comedy Central programs supposedly have to come in knowing more about current news (comparativley) to get all the jokes than audiences of popular news talk shows like the O'Reilly Factor and 2. Colbert and Stewart routinely express amazement that anyone would seriously compare a fake news show written for entertainment with actual news programs, even news talk shows. I rather agree.
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Re: Bill O'Reilly Rips Into Anti-Gay Lawyer

Postby mazzilliu » Wed Jun 04, 2008 12:27 am UTC

Sebeka2 wrote:Um, The O'Reilly Factor is a real news program. O'Reilly is himself and the program reflects his actual views and (generally) those of his network, Fox News. On his show, O'Reilly attempts to discuss political and social issues in a serious (if confrontational) maner. I don't know if it has won any awards, but if it did it would be under the catagory of talk show, or perhaps TV Newscast. The writers, host, and intended audience of the O'Reilly factor are conservative.

The O'Reilly Factor is a real news program just like "Crossfire" was a real debate program where educated rational adults got together and discussed the important issues of the day. :lol: Getting your information in a manner that's slanted or colored in any way is just as bad or worse then getting no information at all if you don't take it with a grain of salt. These people producing the program have no journalistic responsibility they are held to, their job is to color the news with their network-approved world view. I don't mind the fact that they exist and broadcast, mind you, it just dissapoints me that people take programs like that really seriously.

that clip was pretty cool though. papa bear didn't even yell at the guy to win the argument :lol:
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Re: Bill O'Reilly Rips Into Anti-Gay Lawyer

Postby Sebeka2 » Wed Jun 04, 2008 2:26 am UTC

Very true, not all political programs have equal, ah, journalistic integrity. But I do consider them a breed apart from stuff on comedy networks, even the slanted political talk shows. To me the difference is the one attempts to talk seriously about politics (sometimes using humor) and the other tells scripted jokes about it, with no real intent to inform or persuade. Not that I don't enjoy the comedy programs, I just don't consider them a news program, even compared to programs like political talk shows.
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Re: Bill O'Reilly Rips Into Anti-Gay Lawyer

Postby Clumpy » Wed Jun 04, 2008 3:09 am UTC

Belial wrote:
Shouldn't have anything to do with ideology, but with whether their opinions are consistent and well-founded.


Because, as we know, logical consistency is *way* more important than being a decent or worthwhile person.


Well, it's a heck of a lot better than going on ideology. True intellectual honesty requires a humility and courtesy such that I believe only a truly decent person can possess it.

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Re: Bill O'Reilly Rips Into Anti-Gay Lawyer

Postby Masuri » Wed Jun 04, 2008 3:10 am UTC

Oh, I think O'Reilly is playing a part just as much as Colbert is. Similarly, I think that of Rush Limbaugh, too.

All three of those men are entertainers. Limbaugh and O'Reilly (my fingers want to type O'Rly, gah) are in earnest -mostly - but they still have television/radio personas that they craft toward the intended audience. Would either of them say things they don't strictly believe or exaggerate their stances on things to cause a stir? Of course! Calm, intelligent discourse doesn't grab ratings the way flash, fire, and outrage do.

Once I realized that, I stopped hating both O'Reilly and Limbaugh and I can even find some merit in their performances. I think it would be very interesting to know either of those men IRL and be able to compare and contrast their public personas with their private ones.

I also think this thread has wandered far afield. ;)

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Re: Bill O'Reilly Rips Into Anti-Gay Lawyer

Postby 3.14159265... » Wed Jun 04, 2008 3:12 am UTC

So there is no bias in Colbert's program?

No one watches O'Reilly because he is entertaining?

No one ever quotes Colbert for political discussion in a manner of regurgitation?

Colbert does not have a world view that he is trying to share with others?

You, personally have read more news from journalists or heard from Colbert in the last year? How many others? Is he just a Comedian?

I watch the guy for news. I like Colbert's comedy, I don't like O'Reilly's political opinion. I recognize however that O'Reilly can be entertaining for some, and that Colbert delivers news commentary.
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Re: Bill O'Reilly Rips Into Anti-Gay Lawyer

Postby Sebeka2 » Wed Jun 04, 2008 4:47 am UTC

You, personally have read more news from journalists or heard from Colbert in the last year? How many others? Is he just a Comedian?
I do not quite understand your question. I get my news from several sources and then turn to Comedy Central to laugh about it. It's rare that the show talks about a subject I'm not already familiar with; I doubt I'd get most of the jokes otherwise. If you had to pick just one news-related program on TV to watch, the Colbert Report isn't the worst choice you could make, but be aware that unlike other shows, including the O'Reilly Factor, the Colbert Report is classified as a comedy program or "fake news" show, not a news talk show or newscast.

If you like, think of it as the difference between a thrice-weekly comic strip that satirizes games and a gaming magazine with actual reviews (some of which may use humor)? The comic may provide some pointed and up to date commentary, but by definition it's still a comic, not a review source or magazine. Both have the potential to be slanted and uninformative, but unlike the magazine, the comic's primary job is to find something funny in every game presented (and ignore the unfunny bits), not just discuss/present it. Similarly, if someone only watched the Colbert Report (I'm not suggesting you do), they'd miss out on all the un-funny parts of the news, which O'Reilly's show is not compelled to ignore (though he may choose to do so anyway).

As for O'Reilly being entertaining: Sure he is. Everything on TV is entertaining, otherwise they'd pull it off. Some folks think O'Reilly is often unintentionally funny, others agree with every single word and love to see him pounce on folks and tear apart their political views; either is a fine reason to watch the show, imo. I don't normally care for it myself, though every now and again I find a clip that I like, such as this one in this thread or the one where Colbert was a guest. It gives me hope. :P
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Re: Bill O'Reilly Rips Into Anti-Gay Lawyer

Postby H.E.L.e.N. » Wed Jun 04, 2008 5:06 am UTC

@the comic strip analogy: I was thinking more that it's like Bill O'Reilly is an opinion columnist and Stephen Colbert is the Onion.

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Re: Bill O'Reilly Rips Into Anti-Gay Lawyer

Postby Sebeka2 » Wed Jun 04, 2008 5:50 am UTC

helen wrote:@the comic strip analogy: I was thinking more that it's like Bill O'Reilly is an opinion columnist and Stephen Colbert is the Onion.

Ha, yes, that's better analogy.
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Re: Bill O'Reilly Rips Into Anti-Gay Lawyer

Postby Pathway » Wed Jun 04, 2008 6:30 am UTC

3.14159265... wrote:So there is no bias in Colbert's program?

No. Which is to say, there is such a bias. Note that this is not the same as saying Colbert is as biased as O'Reilly. Neither is it the same as saying Colbert strays as far from truth as does O'Reilly.
No one watches O'Reilly because he is entertaining?


No. Which is to say, people do watch O'Reilly to be entertained. The difference is that O'Reilly's show purports to be news, whereas Colbert's show airs on a network called "Comedy Central" and there exists a great amount of additional circumstantial evidence to indicate that The Colbert Report is not intended as news. I would guess that the proportion of news-seeking to entertainment-seeking viewers of O'Reilly's show is far higher than the same proportion for Colbert's show.

No one ever quotes Colbert for political discussion in a manner of regurgitation?

No. Which is to say, sometimes people quote Colbert while discussing politics, in a "manner of regurgitation." I would, however, note that since the positions Colbert takes are often understood to be false, a viewer does have to distinguish what it is exactly in Colbert's stated views that is wrong. When one expresses one of Colbert's implicit views as one's own, there's been some preprocessing going on. Let's not even talk about taking Colbert at face value.

Colbert does not have a world view that he is trying to share with others?


No. Which is to say, he does have a worldview which he is trying to share with others. Again, this is secondary to his jokes.

You, personally have read more news from journalists or heard from Colbert in the last year? How many others? Is he just a Comedian?

I've read much more from "real" news than I have gotten from Colbert. How many other whats? No one is 'just,' as you say, a comedian, so no, Colbert is not 'just' a comedian. As for his on-air activities: A better blanket term for them would be 'satirist.'

Another set of reasons people don't like O'Reilly, which you seem to be ignoring, is that he is often rude and condescending, and that he ignores or glosses over things he doesn't want to hear.

As my last remark of the night, I'll mention in passing that the Socratic method only works when you ask intelligent questions.
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Re: Bill O'Reilly Rips Into Anti-Gay Lawyer

Postby 3.14159265... » Wed Jun 04, 2008 5:49 pm UTC

So pathway, let me try the socratic method (badly :P ) again.

How are O'Rielly and Colbert similar?

What are some general perceptions of Colbert from liberals? conservatives?

What are some general perceptions of O'Rielly from liberals? conservatives?

How are Colbert fans perceived by other Colbert fans? by O'Rielly fans?

How are O'Rielly fans perceived by other O'Rielly fans? by Colbert fans?
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Re: Bill O'Reilly Rips Into Anti-Gay Lawyer

Postby Clumpy » Wed Jun 04, 2008 6:26 pm UTC

3.14159265... wrote:So pathway, let me try the socratic method (badly :P ) again.

How are O'Rielly and Colbert similar?

What are some general perceptions of Colbert from liberals? conservatives?

What are some general perceptions of O'Rielly from liberals? conservatives?

How are Colbert fans perceived by other Colbert fans? by O'Rielly fans?

How are O'Rielly fans perceived by other O'Rielly fans? by Colbert fans?


I'm on workbreak and don't have time to respond to all of these, but I think that Colbert is more widely liked, if only because he's more oblique about stating opinions outright. Satire is an effective cushion to avoid controversy.

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Re: Bill O'Reilly Rips Into Anti-Gay Lawyer

Postby Sebeka2 » Wed Jun 04, 2008 6:46 pm UTC

What do any of those things have to with what category of program either of those two shows are? There are plenty of programs on TV that try to stay current and whose intended audience is primarily X or Y, but that do not belong to the same programming genre.

Back on topic, I was talking with a coworker about the O'Reilly clip and we were trying to decide if he was really pro-gay marriage or if he was trying to encourage his side to make a better defense so they'll win, come November. I dunno. I support either, I think. (The one is my stance, the other makes for a more interesting debate.) I really like his stated position: that religion and dislike of change/definitions aren't good enough reasons to legally prohibit gay marriage and that they need to find a reason why gay marriage would be actually bad for California (which wasn't done on this show, at least) or step down.
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Re: Bill O'Reilly Rips Into Anti-Gay Lawyer

Postby 3.14159265... » Fri Jun 06, 2008 8:59 pm UTC

What do any of those things have to with what category of program either of those two shows are? There are plenty of programs on TV that try to stay current and whose intended audience is primarily X or Y, but that do not belong to the same programming genre.
This argument started when I said it was ironic that Colbert fans hate O'Reilly, love Colbert and claim higher moral and rational ground. Those questions are relevant to that.
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