Third (Final) Presidential Debate

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Third (Final) Presidential Debate

Postby Durinthal » Thu Oct 16, 2008 1:24 am UTC

Watch online: http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/10/15/ ... index.html
Fact checking: http://wire.factcheck.org/

I didn't watch the second one (they both sounded like broken records so I stopped after ten minutes), and there's a good chance I'll turn this one off too. Still, here's some discussion about it.

1. McCain just asked Obama when he stood up to his party leaders, which is amusing as he seems to have become a pawn of his own party in the last year or so.
2. McCain continually misquotes/misinterprets Obama's plans, even after Obama corrects them himself.
3. Wait.. did McCain just say something about opposing the war in Iraq?

Edit 1: Heh, the moderator just called them out on having dirty campaigns despite them both pledging not to earlier.
Edit 2: Right, McCain's repudiated every false accusation about Obama.. except for the whole Ayers thing.
Edit 3: McCain said Obama has the highest campaign spending since Watergate.. so? At least he has money to spend.
Edit 4: Well, at least Obama took the opportunity to tell the truth about Ayers and ACORN. Though seeing as Ayers is a professor, maybe that isn't great either.
Edit 5: Okay, I've missed the last several minutes due to making dinner, but I just came back to the end of McCain talking about drugs killing a bunch of young people. Maybe this is the libertarian in me talking, but the "war on drugs" is pretty stupid in my opinion.

Did everyone else just stop paying attention to the debates, or are they sitting in front of their TVs paying rapt attention to the bobbleheads on the screen? Talking to myself is strange.

Edit 6: Seriously, if I wasn't in a high-priority battleground state (one of the benefits to living in Ohio), I would have been committed to Nader by now. Obama looks better than McCain to me, but not by much. I'm also absolutely terrified at the thought of Palin taking office, so that's one more incentive for me to go Obama.

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Re: Third (Final) Presidential Debate

Postby TheGrammarBolshevik » Thu Oct 16, 2008 2:02 am UTC

Did I really hear Obama say that 100% of McCain's ads have been negative?

And I think he missed a good chance to say that Palin should have repudiated her supporters' calls for his death when McCain asked him to repudiate Lewis's remarks.
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Re: Third (Final) Presidential Debate

Postby Lumpy » Thu Oct 16, 2008 2:03 am UTC

Yes, actually, that can be backed up with assessments from independent organizations and journalists.

http://marcambinder.theatlantic.com/arc ... ns_100.php

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Re: Third (Final) Presidential Debate

Postby Exotria » Thu Oct 16, 2008 2:05 am UTC

I don't appreciate being called Joe repeatedly. And McCain pretending he's the victim here is despicable when his supporters are hitting Obama with death threats. He's not repudiating any of those! He's being so smug...

Also, I don't know if I'd vote for Senator Government.

EDIT: Since when is the health of the mother a BAD LIBERAL AGENDA?
Last edited by Exotria on Thu Oct 16, 2008 2:16 am UTC, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Third (Final) Presidential Debate

Postby Durinthal » Thu Oct 16, 2008 2:10 am UTC

Heh, McCain just said that a few years ago the Senate was about to blow up (in reference to appointing Supreme Court judges). Too bad it didn't.

Oh, and what they're talking about with Joe Plumber: http://wire.factcheck.org/2008/10/15/joe-the-plumber/

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Re: Third (Final) Presidential Debate

Postby clintonius » Thu Oct 16, 2008 2:14 am UTC

The best: "Sarah Palin is a role model to women."

Unless you're a woman who likes her rights.
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Re: Third (Final) Presidential Debate

Postby cypherspace » Thu Oct 16, 2008 2:15 am UTC

It's interesting, McCain's been on the attack constantly. Apart from a few refutations, Obama has generally skirted the attacks and reiterated his own campaign's policies. It appeared initially that McCain was winning the debate but Obama's been so steady and consistent that I really think McCain's just appearing to be an angry old man who can't rely on promoting his own policies to win.
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Re: Third (Final) Presidential Debate

Postby clintonius » Thu Oct 16, 2008 2:16 am UTC

Agreed, though I do think Obama has done a good deal of refutation -- he's just quick about it. McCain is following non-sequiturs and half-truths (and lies, in the case of claiming that Ayers said he "wished he'd bombed more" in 2001).
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Re: Third (Final) Presidential Debate

Postby roc314 » Thu Oct 16, 2008 2:17 am UTC

I was amused when McCain, after saying all the stuff about not agreeing with his supporters when they said Obama was a terrorist, directly said that he thought Obama was ideologically with Myers. Hmm, hypocrisy much?

Also, nice to know McCain is so opposed to abortions. </sarcasm>
Also, according to Obama, "sexuality is sacred". I thought we were intelligent enough to realize that the (religiously motivated) abstinence-only sex ed doesn't work.

EDIT: Does poor performance in school pose a threat to national security? Excellent question.

So McCain is pro charter school, like Obama mentioned he was about half an hour ago. Was he disagreeing with Obama or trying to support him?

And why shouldn't military people have to take the same exams as everyone else before going into teaching? How does being in the military make them automatically more qualified to teach?
Last edited by roc314 on Thu Oct 16, 2008 2:21 am UTC, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Third (Final) Presidential Debate

Postby TheGrammarBolshevik » Thu Oct 16, 2008 2:20 am UTC

Lumpy wrote:Yes, actually, that can be backed up with assessments from independent organizations and journalists.

http://marcambinder.theatlantic.com/arc ... ns_100.php


That page is loading slowly for me, but I know that I have seen at least one (although I can only remember one) ad from McCain that talked about McCain. I don't like that Obama would use the number 100% when there are counterexamples to be found easily.

clintonius wrote:The best: "Sarah Palin is a role model to women."

Unless you're a woman who likes her rights.


I also noticed that McCain said that her personal experiences will motivate her to fund research into autism. Why haven't her personal experiences done anything for her position on teen pregnancy?
Last edited by TheGrammarBolshevik on Thu Oct 16, 2008 2:25 am UTC, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Third (Final) Presidential Debate

Postby william » Thu Oct 16, 2008 2:25 am UTC

TheGrammarBolshevik wrote:
Lumpy wrote:Yes, actually, that can be backed up with assessments from independent organizations and journalists.

http://marcambinder.theatlantic.com/arc ... ns_100.php


That page is loading slowly for me, but I know that I have seen at least one (although I can only remember one) ad from McCain that talked about McCain. I don't like that Obama would use the number 100% when there are counterexamples to be found easily.

Almost all of them have since been taken off the air.
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Re: Third (Final) Presidential Debate

Postby stapleface » Thu Oct 16, 2008 2:28 am UTC

it was for the week ending october 4th that 100% of the mccain ads were negative, so a little misleading yeah

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Re: Third (Final) Presidential Debate

Postby TheGrammarBolshevik » Thu Oct 16, 2008 2:29 am UTC

william wrote:
TheGrammarBolshevik wrote:
Lumpy wrote:Yes, actually, that can be backed up with assessments from independent organizations and journalists.

http://marcambinder.theatlantic.com/arc ... ns_100.php


That page is loading slowly for me, but I know that I have seen at least one (although I can only remember one) ad from McCain that talked about McCain. I don't like that Obama would use the number 100% when there are counterexamples to be found easily.

Almost all of them have since been taken off the air.


This is a quote from CNN's transcript:

Barack Obama wrote:And 100 percent, John, of your ads -- 100 percent of them have been negative.


He's not just talking about ads that are on the air now. McCain has had some positive ads, and that seriously undermines what could have been a valid point about McCain's negative campaigning.
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Re: Third (Final) Presidential Debate

Postby stapleface » Thu Oct 16, 2008 2:35 am UTC

I really don't understand where all the stuff about autism came from.

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Re: Third (Final) Presidential Debate

Postby Exotria » Thu Oct 16, 2008 2:36 am UTC

Apparently a fresh kid with Down Syndrome gives you insight into raising a kid with autism.
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Re: Third (Final) Presidential Debate

Postby clintonius » Thu Oct 16, 2008 2:38 am UTC

http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/ has a running commentary. It's certainly Obama-biased, but it's entertaining and well worth a read. Their best line of the night: "Obama's answer to Nancy Reagan: 'Just say no to cavalier sexual behavior?' "
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Re: Third (Final) Presidential Debate

Postby frezik » Thu Oct 16, 2008 2:42 am UTC

I like how all the questions were phrased in the manner of "how much do you and your campaigns totally suck?"

McCain did exactly what he had to do in respect to Ayers. Mention it briefly, let the refutation come, and move on. Many of the people at his rallys of late have been calling for blood on this issue, but it's one thing to mention it when Obama isn't in the room, and another when he's right across the table. He couldn't ignore it, and said he wouldn't before the debate started, but that's exactly why he couldn't pound on the issue, either. Obama knew it was coming, prepared for it, and had a series of facts already lined up to refute it. Trying to keep going with it would have been a strategic error on McCain's part.
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Re: Third (Final) Presidential Debate

Postby Lumpy » Thu Oct 16, 2008 2:49 am UTC

McCain did some fancy footwork making it look like Obama was insulting World War II veterans at his rallies instead of answering about the people that yelled he was a terrorist.

I thought the bit at the end where he dismissed Obama's remark with "well, because it will only work with 2,000 people, we shouldn't try it at all? Great." and then laughed at his own joke, flashing his yellow teeth and snorting, looked ridiculous.

There was a part where McCain mentioned "environmentalist extremists wanting nuclear power to be safe" and made Obama chuckle a bit, because really, it comes across as "they're extremists because I think safety is bad."

Anyway, CBS/CNN snap poll results coming up later.

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Re: Third (Final) Presidential Debate

Postby Sarr » Thu Oct 16, 2008 3:07 am UTC

roc314 wrote:And why shouldn't military people have to take the same exams as everyone else before going into teaching? How does being in the military make them automatically more qualified to teach?
This. This pissed me, as a high school student, off to the point of almost yelling at the TV. You were just saying how we should get rid of bad teachers. Now you're saying we should let people who were in the millitary - which has NOTHING to do with being a teacher - bypass the things that teach people how to be GOOD teachers. SHUT THE FUCK UP. If I was old enough, and you won I'd go to Canada. I'm not, however.
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Re: Third (Final) Presidential Debate

Postby knight427 » Thu Oct 16, 2008 3:08 am UTC

Dear Joe the Plumber,

The fact that will earn your money by owning a small business does not somehow make you exempt from paying higher taxes on your large income under our progressive tax system. If it's such a burden to make that much profit, please, hire some bad employees to reduce your profits.

Sincerely,
Small Business Owner Wishing he had Joe's Tax "Problem"
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Re: Third (Final) Presidential Debate

Postby CVSoul » Thu Oct 16, 2008 3:12 am UTC

I'm thinking my favorite line from this was McCain saying "If you wanted to run against Bush, you should have ran four years ago." Overall, I think Obama just looks like a jerk to me in these debates.

Concerning the McCain supporter threatening to kill Obama, sort of, I think that McCain covered that well in the debate. In a rally of thousands of honestly nice people, there's always going to be one jackass that yells something like that.
Furthermore, I know that Obama supporters can be worse. I live in Denver, and there were people talking about killing McCain everywhere during the DNC. All in all, though, the anti-Obama players seemed less violent. There was a lot less action in Denver than Minneapolis for sure.
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Re: Third (Final) Presidential Debate

Postby Princess Marzipan » Thu Oct 16, 2008 3:14 am UTC

Sarr wrote:
roc314 wrote:And why shouldn't military people have to take the same exams as everyone else before going into teaching? How does being in the military make them automatically more qualified to teach?
This. This pissed me, as a high school student, off to the point of almost yelling at the TV. You were just saying how we should get rid of bad teachers. Now you're saying we should let people who were in the millitary - which has NOTHING to do with being a teacher - bypass the things that teach people how to be GOOD teachers. SHUT THE FUCK UP. If I was old enough, and you won I'd go to Canada. I'm not, however.


I had a teacher in junior high who had previously been a drill sergeant.

She was so bad my PARENTS hated her.
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Re: Third (Final) Presidential Debate

Postby Quixotess » Thu Oct 16, 2008 3:17 am UTC

clintonius wrote:The best: "Sarah Palin is a role model to women."

Unless you're a woman who likes her rights.

YES. THANK YOU. GOVERNOR PALIN HAS A VAGINA, AS I DO. THAT DOESN'T MAKE HER A GOOD ROLE MODEL FOR ME. Women think with our brains just like men do. THANKS.

Other things that really fucking sucked:

-I don't think I can express how much I hate the "Joe" meme, how we're all so obsessed with what "Joe" wants and what "Joe" needs. Hey, you know whose needs don't line up with those of Average Joe?

1. Average Jane
2. Average Daisuke
3. Average Tyrone
4. Average Xochitl

-Obama's still buying in to the right-wing framing on abortion. "I support a ban on late-term abortion, except in the case of a danger to the life or the health of the mother." *sigh* Look it up, Obama--late term abortions don't happen on whims. Also, again with the "in consultation with her religious advisor." Abortion does not have to be a religious, spiritual, or o-no-I'm-so-wracked-with-guilt decision. And it's a decision that certainly can be made by a woman all by herself.

-McCain's frequent references to Obama's "eloquence" were condescending, smarmy, hateful, and--I thought--racist dogwhistles.

-"The 'health' of the mother." #$%&^!&$#%$%! Hahahaha, fuck women and their "bodies" and their "rights." I hate John McCain, so very much.




On the other hand, I thought Obama slayed on health care and on education. Good work on those counts. "There's a fine." "Actually, there's not a fine." "ZOMG FINEZ."
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Re: Third (Final) Presidential Debate

Postby frezik » Thu Oct 16, 2008 3:18 am UTC

CVSoul wrote:Concerning the McCain supporter threatening to kill Obama, sort of, I think that McCain covered that well in the debate. In a rally of thousands of honestly nice people, there's always going to be one jackass that yells something like that.


Normally I'd agree, but a good chunk of audiance boo'd when McCain took the microphone away from a woman who said she didn't trust Obama because he's an arab. After Palin came onboard, a lot more of the fringe started showing up.
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Re: Third (Final) Presidential Debate

Postby clintonius » Thu Oct 16, 2008 3:26 am UTC

CVSoul, I respect your decision, but if you're seeing Obama as the one acting like a jerk in these debates. . . wow. McCain is outwardly hostile, he focuses on rhetoric, and hasn't shown any qualms about lying (re: the Ayers statement I mentioned above).

Another thing I very much appreciated about Obama's contribution tonight was his direct support of human rights in Colombia before we engage in free trade with them. I spent four months in Central America developing a passion for human rights, and was brokenhearted when we passed the wishy-washy and exploitative CAFTA that neglected to include enforceable labor, environmental, and human rights standards. I've met people who have been affected by the situation in Colombia. I have a friend who is working there now. Just another confirmation in my mind that Obama knows what the fuck he's talking about and is going to lead with a concern for human rights. (I do wish he'd quit being such a gorram ninny about the abortion issue, though. Jerbus damn.)
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Re: Third (Final) Presidential Debate

Postby stapleface » Thu Oct 16, 2008 3:28 am UTC

CVSoul wrote:There was a lot less action in Denver than Minneapolis for sure.


I hear it was totally calm there.

The snap polls are showing Obama ahead with undecided voters, but they probably have double-digit sample sizes.

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Re: Third (Final) Presidential Debate

Postby Princess Marzipan » Thu Oct 16, 2008 3:31 am UTC

Quixotess wrote:-McCain's frequent references to Obama's "eloquence" were condescending, smarmy, hateful, and--I thought--racist dogwhistles.


I found them less racist and more intellectualcist.
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Re: Third (Final) Presidential Debate

Postby knight427 » Thu Oct 16, 2008 3:34 am UTC

CVSoul wrote:I'm thinking my favorite line from this was McCain saying "If you wanted to run against Bush, you should have ran four years ago."


I was impressed with that line. He peaked way early though, it went downhill real fast for him, throwing every hail marry he could think of.

CVSoul wrote:Overall, I think Obama just looks like a jerk to me in these debates.


The guy you disagree with will always look like a jerk when he refutes the spin and lies of "your guy" (assuming you buy into the spin and lies yourself, that is).

CVSoul wrote:Concerning the McCain supporter threatening to kill Obama, sort of, I think that McCain covered that well in the debate. In a rally of thousands of honestly nice people, there's always going to be one jackass that yells something like that.


Have you seen the multiple videos of multiple rallies where his supports are calling Obama a terrorist over and over, then one guy says he should be killed? It's not like it was just that one guy in the middle of a clam crowd. I give McCain minimal credit for facing down boo's from his supports as he has tried to calm the angry mob. "Minimal' credit because he basically incited the crazies to begin with.
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Re: Third (Final) Presidential Debate

Postby Lumpy » Thu Oct 16, 2008 3:37 am UTC

"If you wanted to run against Bush, you should have ran four years ago."


McCain's best line, regardless of what I thought of it.
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Re: Third (Final) Presidential Debate

Postby Oort » Thu Oct 16, 2008 3:53 am UTC

Quixotess wrote:-"The 'health' of the mother." #$%&^!&$#%$%! Hahahaha, fuck women and their "bodies" and their "rights." I hate John McCain, so very much.


QFT. Is 'women's health' democratic code-speak for "baby killing" now or something?

That, and the disregard for teacher qualifications. We have those for a reason.

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Re: Third (Final) Presidential Debate

Postby Exotria » Thu Oct 16, 2008 4:35 am UTC

Lumpy wrote:
"If you wanted to run against Bush, you should have ran four years ago."


McCain's best line, regardless of what I thought of it.


It seemed to me like it was more of a preprogrammed line just so that he could pretend a lot of his policies were very different when they... weren't. It was a good-sounding line that I don't think fooled anybody.
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Re: Third (Final) Presidential Debate

Postby cerbie » Thu Oct 16, 2008 5:15 am UTC

About 15 minutes into the rerun on CNBC...I want to strangle McCain for his argument tactics.
Edit2: Snicker to interrupt, then red herring, then strawman. It hurts my brain!

Edit3: McCain is so out of touch with health care, it's unreal (did he really say he wants it to go on like it is, but with a tax credit added? Holy hell, he did!). He also apparently can't comprehend anything he hears but keywords. Obama isn't doing great, but McCain may as well be digging a hole for himself, from what I'm seeing him say. Sadly, I bet that won't be the case when I read what the general public thought...

Edit: this is how the other debates should have been, dammit.
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Re: Third (Final) Presidential Debate

Postby EsotericWombat » Thu Oct 16, 2008 5:23 am UTC

CVSoul wrote:Concerning the McCain supporter threatening to kill Obama, sort of, I think that McCain covered that well in the debate. In a rally of thousands of honestly nice people, there's always going to be one jackass that yells something like that.



Actually, no.

Interviews conducted by reporters following the McCain campaign have seen a distinctly higher concentration of people showing up at these rallies who say that Obama is a terrorist since McCain and Palin have gone to town on the Ayers thing. That only a handful of those people have seen fit to express this belief in a way that can get the Secret Service to shove a flagpole up their asses if properly reported doesn't mean that most of the rest of them aren't total ignorant bastards.

As for Denver, Obama wasn't in front of those people to repudiate them. And McCain's sort of vague statement that the same things have been shouted at Obama's rallies would have been supported by actual examples if there were any to offer THERE ARE PEOPLE WHOSE JOB IT IS TO DO THAT.

As for the 100% negative comment, I guess I didn't notice that Obama didn't specify that he meant in the last week-- I'd been aware of the study and I don't think there's any reason for Obama to mislead on purpose here, the truth is bad enough My guess is that he didn't notice either, and that he or his campaign are going to offer up a correction tomorrow.

Incidentally? If McCain doesn't want Obama to run against George W Bush he shouldn't have accepted the man's endorsement, shouldn't have embraced his policies (including the ones he previously found to be against his conscience), and shouldn't have put a gender-inverse clone of him at the bottom of the ticket. And moreover, coming from a candidate who's been running against Bill Ayers, it's monumentally hypocritical.
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Re: Third (Final) Presidential Debate

Postby Garm » Thu Oct 16, 2008 5:25 am UTC

Thank the gods it's over. No more stupid debates. Holy crap I'm tired of all this pointless spin. Can it be November yet?
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Re: Third (Final) Presidential Debate

Postby booradley2785 » Thu Oct 16, 2008 6:57 am UTC

I am in California so this is Obama's state. I don't think either candidate has visited here since the primaries. Regardless, I am voting for Nader. He spoke at my university not to long ago and he is man with passion. Loved hearing him speak. I really wish they would let him and the other 3rd party candidates debate. I think it would make the primary candidates look foolish.

On a related topic, imagine if Nader "played the game," got invited to the debates and somehow ran as a Democrat. Do you think he is still too ugly to win? I am being serious. Name the last ugly president. I am not sure there is one. Unattractive maybe, but not ugly. Nader has a lazy eye with wrinkles and sunspots all over. He could not win. Not in America. We want our representatives to be beautiful.

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Re: Third (Final) Presidential Debate

Postby cerbie » Thu Oct 16, 2008 7:06 am UTC

booradley2785 wrote:I am in California so this is Obama's state. I don't think either candidate has visited here since the primaries. Regardless, I am voting for Nader. He spoke at my university not to long ago and he is man with passion. Loved hearing him speak. I really wish they would let him and the other 3rd party candidates debate. I think it would make the primary candidates look foolish.

On a related topic, imagine if Nader "played the game," got invited to the debates and somehow ran as a Democrat. Do you think he is still too ugly to win? I am being serious. Name the last ugly president. I am not sure there is one. Unattractive maybe, but not ugly. Nader has a lazy eye with wrinkles and sunspots all over. He could not win. Not in America. We want our representatives to be beautiful.
He also comes off as too much of an intellectual, and angry at our nation's current state of affairs. While both should be the case for anyone running for office, neither are popular. I personally think Nader would make a great high-level appointee.
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Re: Third (Final) Presidential Debate

Postby ++$_ » Thu Oct 16, 2008 7:15 am UTC

cerbie wrote:I personally think Nader would make a great high-level appointee.
Also, since he will not be elected, that's the only position he has a chance of getting.

"X would make a great high-level appointee" is always a good line to throw out there in response to a lot of stupid things politicians say:

McCain: "I know how to get Osama bin Laden."
Me: "So Obama will give you that job once he's President."

Palin: "I know a lot about Russia."
Me: "Great. Apply for the ambassador's job."

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Re: Third (Final) Presidential Debate

Postby roc314 » Thu Oct 16, 2008 7:36 am UTC

++$_ wrote:McCain: "I know how to get Osama bin Laden."
Me: "So Obama will give you that job once he's President."
I'm stealing this quote for my sig.
Garm wrote:Thank the gods it's over. No more stupid debates. Holy crap I'm tired of all this pointless spin. Can it be November yet?
You're forgetting the mudslinging that will be constant until the election. At least with the debate they can have a semblance of intelligent discussion.

Any bets on whether there are any Swift boat-esque commercials at the last minute?
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Re: Third (Final) Presidential Debate

Postby EsotericWombat » Thu Oct 16, 2008 8:50 am UTC

In 2004 Nader received donations from prominent Republicans. When asked about the donations by a reporter who took the fairly obvious logical step to suggest that these Republicans were hoping that he'd do them the same favor in '04 as he'd done them in '00, he replied that he thought he'd take more votes from Bush than Kerry, flying in the face of, for instance, any reasonable analysis of Nader's numbers.

He also promised at the outset of his '04 campaign that he'd stay out of the swing states. Later, he mused that he was considering only campaigning in the swing states.

In 2000, his best argument for his candidacy was that the two-party system needed to be shaken up, and made strides to convince the American People that George Bush and Al Gore were the same, a patently (and as we've since learned dangerously) absurd claim that somehow managed to dominate the national discourse. In 2004, he abandoned the fight for third party legitimacy and rendered the Green Party impotent as he ran on his own with a functionally identical platform.

This time around he's made the equally absurd claim that Barack Obama has done nothing for black Americans. Unless you count his time as a civil rights attorney and community organizer on the South Side of Chicago, where under his direction the Developing Communities Project (which set up programs for job training, college preparatory tutoring, and tenants rights activism) expanded to over five times its size at the time he took it over. Or for that matter the rest of his career.

Ralph Nader is a douche. He was once a great asset to our country, but since his involvement in presidential politics, he's become a two-faced jackass who will say anything to score points, even if it flies in the face of established fact. Incidentally, for someone who made his name saying that Democrats and Republicans are the same, he's a lot like John McCain.
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Re: Third (Final) Presidential Debate

Postby Dream » Thu Oct 16, 2008 9:22 am UTC

EsotericWombat wrote:In 2000, his best argument for his candidacy was that the two-party system needed to be shaken up, and made strides to convince the American People that George Bush and Al Gore were the same, a patently (and as we've since learned dangerously) absurd claim that somehow managed to dominate the national discourse.


Back then, no one knew just how dangerous Bush would be, or at least, no-one thought he'd actually monger as much war* as he has. During the campaign, Nader's point was accurate: They're both part of the two party system, both sides of which have more to do with corporate sponsorship than they do with representation. It wasn't so absurd before Bush went war-crazy and Gore re-invented as a pseudo-green real liberal.


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