Nepal legalizes gay marriage (and the USA doesn't)

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Nepal legalizes gay marriage (and the USA doesn't)

Postby armandtanzarian » Thu Dec 11, 2008 2:35 am UTC

http://www.365gay.com/news/nepal-suprem ... hts%20%20/

So while America drags its feet about and actually enacts openly discriminatory practices, a country generally considered to be backwater and third-world overtakes it in terms of civil rights.

Bricks were shat.

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Re: Nepal legalizes gay marriage

Postby Jack Saladin » Thu Dec 11, 2008 3:20 am UTC

Cuba's been overtaking the US in civil and human rights, not to mention healthcare, for years. America ain't exactly a world leader in anything except kicking ass and, well, debt.

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Re: Nepal legalizes gay marriage

Postby clintonius » Thu Dec 11, 2008 5:53 am UTC

FUCK YOU. We also--

wait, he said "kicking ass" already. Um.

. . . we invented the Twinkie?
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Re: Nepal legalizes gay marriage

Postby Jack Saladin » Thu Dec 11, 2008 6:35 am UTC

Fine, you're a world leader in Twinkies. And by "Twinkies" I mean "morbid obesity". Congratulations.

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Re: Nepal legalizes gay marriage

Postby Lucrece » Thu Dec 11, 2008 6:41 am UTC

Jack Saladin wrote:Fine, you're a world leader in Twinkies. And by "Twinkies" I mean "morbid obesity". Congratulations.


Aww, I was thinking the more pleasant kind of Twinks Twinkies, damn you!
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Re: Nepal legalizes gay marriage

Postby poxic » Thu Dec 11, 2008 6:51 am UTC

Jack Saladin wrote:Cuba's been overtaking the US in civil and human rights, not to mention healthcare, for years. America ain't exactly a world leader in anything except kicking ass and, well, debt.

I've heard some things about Cuba's good health care, mostly about how they have lots of doctors.

Lots of doctors does not equal good health care, though. A good friend of mine went to Cuba about a year ago with her sister and mother. The mother experienced a stroke and a heart attack on the plane (or two strokes, or something equally awful). When they landed, they had to deal with this right away.

My friend described hospitals that had no money for cleaning. The toilets were filthy. They had no meals for patients -- the family was supposed to bring the food. How the hell are a couple of tourists supposed to feed someone in a coma?

My friend knew almost no Spanish, but could use her moderate amount of French to negotiate some understanding with people. Then she ran into the Cuban mindset: "Tomorrow." Anything can be put off until tomorrow. No, no, no: you do this NOW. We must get back to Canada NOW. On top of that, it's very difficult to do business in a country that cannot do business with the US, and where the internet is only sporadically available. Especially when that country is on the opposite side of the US from where one needs to be.

Apparently, my friend made some kind of record for travel disasters. They were home in nine days (the original plan was a 7-day trip). This sort of thing can often take months, according to a doctor my friend spoke to later. I credit this to her determination and creativity. She does. Not. Give. Up.

/sorry for the lengthy aside, thought this would be a shorter story
//feel free to move to another thread, if too irrelevant
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Re: Nepal legalizes gay marriage

Postby Jack Saladin » Thu Dec 11, 2008 7:02 am UTC

I've heard some things about Cuba's good health care, mostly about how they have lots of doctors.

Lots of doctors does not equal good health care, though.

Err, maybe not completely, but it's a big part. People get access to health care quicker, cheaper, and more often. Simply having a good doctor:population ratio makes a huge difference, especially in a poor country. If you compare the access to health care the average Cuban citizen gets compared to others in equivalently poor countries in the region (or even the US - there are thousands of horror stories anywhere you want to look there), you'll find a huge, huge difference, and it's thanks to that ratio.

Having a stroke and a heart attack in a foreign country is going to suck, no matter where it happens. I imagine it wouldn't be a walk in the park in the US, either - the US is the country that dumps patients into back alleys immediately after surgery. That's not exactly the best case to measure a countries quality of health care by. Yeah, Cuba is really, really poor, and suffering under the immense strain of the illegal US economic pressure, so the fact it does as well as it does under those conditions is nothing short of incredible. Compare and contrast the natural disaster preparations and reactions of Cuba and the US for another example of an extremely poor country out performing the richest in the world.

Contrary to what the Cuban government might say, none of this is thanks to Castro, though. Pretty much everything good in Cuba has been done despite that dictator (the attitudes and policies towards homosexuals being a good example).

(I figure this topic is destined to be off-topic. We've had every gay marriage argument in the book a million times before, and hey, who really cares about Nepal?)

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Re: Nepal legalizes gay marriage

Postby poxic » Thu Dec 11, 2008 7:33 am UTC

Jack Saladin wrote:Err, maybe not completely, but it's a big part. People get access to health care quicker, cheaper, and more often.
...
(I figure this topic is destined to be off-topic. We've had every gay marriage argument in the book a million times before, and hey, who really cares about Nepal?)

My friend did mention that the doctors were available and competent, which is at least one part better than many places.

For me, I do care about Nepal. It's good to hear that the LGBT community is making progress there, however uncertain its advances. If Nepal can do this, the communities in her neighbouring countries could use that as a lever with their own governments. Yay progress of the human spirit.

/wonders if the asexual community even identifies itself there, much less takes part in the LGBT umbrella
//yes, I'm asexual
///interesting to be that way, really
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Re: Nepal legalizes gay marriage

Postby LeopoldBloom » Thu Dec 11, 2008 7:55 am UTC

Jack Saladin wrote:Fine, you're a world leader in Twinkies. And by "Twinkies" I mean "morbid obesity". Congratulations.
So while America drags its feet about and actually enacts openly discriminatory practices, a country generally considered to be backwater and third-world overtakes it in terms of civil rights.


*hides before the really strident U.S patriots show up*
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Re: Nepal legalizes gay marriage

Postby Jack Saladin » Thu Dec 11, 2008 8:05 am UTC

I've been waiting for some redneck to start crying about "America bashing" since the OP.

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Re: Nepal legalizes gay marriage

Postby Ann_on_a_mouse » Thu Dec 11, 2008 8:08 am UTC

*obvious attempt to cut off forum creep*
What the hell? Their flag isn't even a quadrilateral! Can we at least get beat to the same-sex marriage front by a country people can find on a map?
</hyperbole>

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Re: Nepal legalizes gay marriage

Postby armandtanzarian » Thu Dec 11, 2008 9:12 am UTC

Jack Saladin wrote:I've been waiting for some redneck to start crying about "America bashing" since the OP.

I live with 2 of them. Try me.

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Re: Nepal legalizes gay marriage

Postby Joeldi » Thu Dec 11, 2008 11:42 am UTC

Ann_on_a_mouse wrote: Can we at least get beat to the same-sex marriage front by a country people can find on a map?
</hyperbole>


Nepal's got to be notable for having Everest in it, this, I think giving it status as (one of?) the highest country in world.
I already have a hate thread. Necromancy > redundancy here, so post there.

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Re: Nepal legalizes gay marriage

Postby 22/7 » Thu Dec 11, 2008 2:02 pm UTC

Joeldi wrote:
Ann_on_a_mouse wrote: Can we at least get beat to the same-sex marriage front by a country people can find on a map?
</hyperbole>


Nepal's got to be notable for having Everest in it, this, I think giving it status as (one of?) the highest country in world.
It has half of Everest. China's got the other. Which leads us to...
poxic wrote:For me, I do care about Nepal. It's good to hear that the LGBT community is making progress there, however uncertain its advances. If Nepal can do this, the communities in her neighbouring countries could use that as a lever with their own governments.
Yes, I'm sure China will jump on board with gay marriage now that Nepal is doing it, what with all that respect they have for Nepal.
Jack Saladin wrote:Cuba's been overtaking the US in civil and human rights, not to mention healthcare, for years. America ain't exactly a world leader in anything except kicking ass and, well, debt.
Hey, we lead GDP, too, right?
Totally not a hypothetical...

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Re: Nepal legalizes gay marriage

Postby Plasma Man » Thu Dec 11, 2008 5:04 pm UTC

This is wondefully unexpected and awesome. It's probably a good sign for everyone in Nepal, not just the LGBT community, as it implies that the replacement of the monarchy by representative government is actually starting to result in progressive change.
Please note that despite the lovely avatar Sungura gave me, I am not a medical doctor.

Possibly my proudest moment on the fora.

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Re: Nepal legalizes gay marriage

Postby RealGrouchy » Fri Dec 12, 2008 12:57 am UTC

Jack Saladin wrote:
I've heard some things about Cuba's good health care, mostly about how they have lots of doctors.

Lots of doctors does not equal good health care, though.
Err, maybe not completely, but it's a big part. People get access to health care quicker, cheaper, and more often.
Actually, you both have a big blind spot. You're talking about "sick care", not "health care". Cuba's high degree of doctorage allows them to go out into the community and make sure that people are staying healthy. In Canada and the US (along with many other parts of the world), people only pay attention to their health once they get sick.

If you only measure their health systems by level of service once people get sick, then yes, you'll see a discrepancy.

But by investing in people's health before they get sick, Cuba has achieved a life expectancy matching the US at much less cost.

In addition, they are able to avoid the doctor shortage through the supply side instead of the demand side: in Canada, when there aren't enough doctors in rural areas, the "solution" is to raise wages, on the assumption that this will attract more people to go to these places where they don't really want to be (never mind that they don't increase the number of med school spots). In Cuba, they give free medical school education to people who come from poor areas, so long as they promise to practise in the area they came from. They have expanded this to an international level, where people from poor parts around the world (including poor US neighbourhoods) train in Cuba and return home to practise.

I recommend the documentary ¡Salud!

And yeah, this is totally offtopic.

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Re: Nepal legalizes gay marriage

Postby Vaniver » Fri Dec 12, 2008 1:38 am UTC

So far, the government has not responded to the ruling.
I was surprised that Maoists were behind something positive, until I read the article. Hopefully they'll actually follow it.

Jack Saladin wrote:America ain't exactly a world leader in anything except kicking ass and, well, debt.
It's not like we have over half the world's supercomputing power, 54 of the world's top 100 universities, produce the most scientific papers and receive the most citations, have the most Nobel laureates, among other things.

Oh. Wait.
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Re: Nepal legalizes gay marriage

Postby Jack Saladin » Fri Dec 12, 2008 1:40 am UTC

@ RG: That's what I was trying (badly) to say with:
People get access to health care quicker, cheaper, and more often.

By doctors interacting with their patients more often, they can avoid illnesses and unhealthiness entirely. That's why I said that a foreigner having a stoke is a terrible measure of a countries "health care" - the best measure is simply how healthy the population is.

They have expanded this to an international level, where people from poor parts around the world (including poor US neighbourhoods) train in Cuba and return home to practise.

Which is a very impressive program having notable impacts on the places these doctors are coming from. If there wasn't that whole terrible-lack-of-democracy thing, I would totally <3 Cuba.

It's not like we have over half the world's supercomputing power, 54 of the world's top 100 universities, produce the most scientific papers and receive the most citations, have the most Nobel laureates, among other things.

'Cause I was clearly 100%, totally dead serious.

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Re: Nepal legalizes gay marriage

Postby armandtanzarian » Fri Dec 12, 2008 3:02 am UTC

Vaniver wrote:
Jack Saladin wrote:America ain't exactly a world leader in anything except kicking ass and, well, debt.
It's not like we have over half the world's supercomputing power, 54 of the world's top 100 universities, produce the most scientific papers and receive the most citations, have the most Nobel laureates, among other things.

Oh. Wait.

And yet, the people most likely to yell "USA No.1!!" are often anti-intellectual people who view professors like mass murderers.

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Re: Nepal legalizes gay marriage

Postby william » Fri Dec 12, 2008 3:03 am UTC

22/7 wrote:Hey, we lead GDP, too, right?

Yes, and before anyone makes a snide comment about the financial crisis, everybody was fucked over by that, and we actually got fucked over less than most countries.
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Re: Nepal legalizes gay marriage

Postby RealGrouchy » Fri Dec 12, 2008 3:21 am UTC

Jack Saladin wrote:@ RG: That's what I was trying (badly) to say with:
People get access to health care quicker, cheaper, and more often.
Yes, I understand that, but "earlier" was the key missing piece.

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Re: Nepal legalizes gay marriage

Postby Vaniver » Fri Dec 12, 2008 4:11 am UTC

armandtanzarian wrote:And yet, the people most likely to yell "USA No.1!!" are often anti-intellectual people who view professors like mass murderers.
Some of us love America because of the freedom and the science, not the freedom and the guns. (But the guns are nice too.)
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Re: Nepal legalizes gay marriage

Postby Lucrece » Fri Dec 12, 2008 4:41 am UTC

Vaniver wrote:
armandtanzarian wrote:And yet, the people most likely to yell "USA No.1!!" are often anti-intellectual people who view professors like mass murderers.
Some of us love America because of the freedom and the science, not the freedom and the guns. (But the guns are nice too.)


Or because of the cool flag. It's a nice break from the drab three columns set up vertically/horizontally with three different colors.

Anyways, back on topic. If you want to shame U.S. for its social stagnancy, you could also point to Uruguay, some little country in the very homophobic Latin America, which has passed civil unions.
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Re: Nepal legalizes gay marriage

Postby gmalivuk » Fri Dec 12, 2008 4:57 am UTC

Lucrece wrote:Anyways, back on topic. If you want to shame U.S. for its social stagnancy...

Pretty sure that's not actually the topic, which isn't even about the US.

Anyway, that's pretty awesome for Nepal. I wonder what my Nepali student has to say about it.
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Re: Nepal legalizes gay marriage

Postby Lucrece » Fri Dec 12, 2008 5:44 am UTC

gmalivuk wrote:
Lucrece wrote:Anyways, back on topic. If you want to shame U.S. for its social stagnancy...

Pretty sure that's not actually the topic, which isn't even about the US.

Anyway, that's pretty awesome for Nepal. I wonder what my Nepali student has to say about it.


The OP opened the door, so I assumed a discussion as to how this legalization speaks of the U.S. could be included ;p.
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Re: Nepal legalizes gay marriage

Postby RealGrouchy » Fri Dec 12, 2008 5:54 am UTC

gmalivuk wrote:
Lucrece wrote:Anyways, back on topic. If you want to shame U.S. for its social stagnancy...
Pretty sure that's not actually the topic, which isn't even about the US.
Indeed. It's about Cuba!

Haven't you been paying attention?

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Re: Nepal legalizes gay marriage

Postby odenskrigare » Fri Dec 12, 2008 6:17 am UTC

Jack Saladin wrote:Cuba's been overtaking the US in civil and human rights, not to mention healthcare, for years. America ain't exactly a world leader in anything except kicking ass and, well, debt.


Even now, you would be hard-pressed to say the Cuba is exceeding the US in civil rights. According to the UN, they have a 'high' HDI, but it's still substantially less than ours: http://hdr.undp.org/en/statistics/

Also, believe it or not ... I was very surprised to find out myself ... Japan has a much higher debt as percentage of GDP than we do. In absolute terms, we have a huge debt, but not so much in relative terms.

But anyway back to the story. I was surprised that a strongly religious country would legalize gay marriage. It didn't surprise me when the Netherlands, for example, authorized gay marriages, but with Nepal it came as a real shock. At any rate, good game, Nepal.

Vaniver wrote:It's not like we have over half the world's supercomputing power, 54 of the world's top 100 universities, produce the most scientific papers and receive the most citations, have the most Nobel laureates, among other things.


I don't know about citations, but from what I understand, the EU currently produces the most scientific literature.
Last edited by odenskrigare on Fri Dec 12, 2008 6:20 am UTC, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Nepal legalizes gay marriage

Postby Lucrece » Fri Dec 12, 2008 6:20 am UTC

odenskrigare wrote:
Jack Saladin wrote:Cuba's been overtaking the US in civil and human rights, not to mention healthcare, for years. America ain't exactly a world leader in anything except kicking ass and, well, debt.


Even now, you would be hard-pressed to say the Cuba is exceeding the US in civil rights. According to the UN, they have a 'high' HDI, but it's still substantially less than ours: http://hdr.undp.org/en/statistics/

Also, believe it or not ... I was very surprised to find out myself ... Japan has a much higher debt as percentage of GDP than we do. In absolute terms, we have a huge debt, but not so much in relative terms.

But anyway back to the story. I was surprised that a strongly religious country would legalize gay marriage. It didn't surprise me when the Netherlands, for example, authorized gay marriages, but with Nepal it came as a real shock. At any rate, good game, Nepal.


Spain is a strongly religious country, too. It's not just having religion, it's the brand of religion and how it's run. America has one of the worst types (Evangelical, Pentecostal, and Baptists).
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Re: Nepal legalizes gay marriage

Postby odenskrigare » Fri Dec 12, 2008 6:23 am UTC

I never understood why people never seem to bring up the fact that there is extensive evidence for medieval Catholic and Orthodox sanctification of same-sex unions, including records of entire separate procedures, cuz ... you know ... you can't say, "do you take Ioannes to be your lawfully wedded wife"

Obviously that approach won't work on ultra-Protestant types... :roll:
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Re: Nepal legalizes gay marriage

Postby armandtanzarian » Fri Dec 12, 2008 6:25 am UTC

Lucrece wrote:
odenskrigare wrote:
Jack Saladin wrote:Cuba's been overtaking the US in civil and human rights, not to mention healthcare, for years. America ain't exactly a world leader in anything except kicking ass and, well, debt.


Even now, you would be hard-pressed to say the Cuba is exceeding the US in civil rights. According to the UN, they have a 'high' HDI, but it's still substantially less than ours: http://hdr.undp.org/en/statistics/

Also, believe it or not ... I was very surprised to find out myself ... Japan has a much higher debt as percentage of GDP than we do. In absolute terms, we have a huge debt, but not so much in relative terms.

But anyway back to the story. I was surprised that a strongly religious country would legalize gay marriage. It didn't surprise me when the Netherlands, for example, authorized gay marriages, but with Nepal it came as a real shock. At any rate, good game, Nepal.


Spain is a strongly religious country, too. It's not just having religion, it's the brand of religion and how it's run. America has one of the worst types (Evangelical, Pentecostal, and Baptists).

On the flip side, you can argue that Buddhism tends to have a more inclusive doctrine; its members aren't exactly known for condemning people to hell, not to say we don't have bigots among us because we do, but its never really been official doctrine or whatever. Another way to look at it is that Marxist philosophy always preached a classless system, and that singling out the LGBT community and denying them rights is essentially creating a class of inferior people and going against communist doctrine.

Then again good luck finding consistency in religion.

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Re: Nepal legalizes gay marriage

Postby odenskrigare » Fri Dec 12, 2008 6:29 am UTC

Nepal is a Hindu country. Relatively speaking, it's the most Hindu country on Earth.

Regardless, minus the literature, I don't really like Hinduism or Buddhism...
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Re: Nepal legalizes gay marriage

Postby LeopoldBloom » Fri Dec 12, 2008 12:17 pm UTC

Vaniver wrote:It's not like we have over half the world's supercomputing power, 54 of the world's top 100 universities, produce the most scientific papers and receive the most citations, have the most Nobel laureates, among other things.



I don't know about citations, but from what I understand, the EU currently produces the most scientific literature.


incidenttly, the EU is a fairly loose local organisation, like a much more cohesive NATO (well, along those lines). certainly not a country and therefore doesn't count. It would be like saying the Commonwealth has higher GDP.
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Re: Nepal legalizes gay marriage

Postby Angua » Fri Dec 12, 2008 1:13 pm UTC

Vaniver wrote:Jack Saladin wrote:
America ain't exactly a world leader in anything except kicking ass and, well, debt.
It's not like we have over half the world's supercomputing power, 54 of the world's top 100 universities, produce the most scientific papers and receive the most citations, have the most Nobel laureates, among other things.

Oh. Wait.
I think the US isn't as progressive as it thinks it is sometimes, looking at its history of being behind the ball on something, it was fairly late on the whole abolishing slavery, integrating blacks and whites, and still hasn't had a woman as head of state.
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Re: Nepal legalizes gay marriage

Postby 22/7 » Fri Dec 12, 2008 1:33 pm UTC

Angua wrote:I think the US isn't as progressive as it thinks it is sometimes, looking at its history of being behind the ball on something, it was fairly late on the whole abolishing slavery, integrating blacks and whites, and still hasn't had a woman as head of state.
Says the person living in the country who has never had a black head of state and only one woman, after which you went back to white men?

And is there a reason that a thread about Nepal legalizing gay marriage has turned into "compare the US to the rest of the world"?
Totally not a hypothetical...

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Re: Nepal legalizes gay marriage

Postby bigglesworth » Fri Dec 12, 2008 1:38 pm UTC

The OP compared America to Nepal. It went from there. Keep up.
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Re: Nepal legalizes gay marriage

Postby Angua » Fri Dec 12, 2008 1:46 pm UTC

22/7 wrote:
Angua wrote:I think the US isn't as progressive as it thinks it is sometimes, looking at its history of being behind the ball on something, it was fairly late on the whole abolishing slavery, integrating blacks and whites, and still hasn't had a woman as head of state.
Says the person living in the country who has never had a black head of state and only one woman, after which you went back to white men?
Ah, but I was living in a country with black heads of state. I said the US was behind the ball, I didn't say that they aren't progressive. The US tends to feel as though it is the greatest country on Earth and then wonders why other people don't like them all that much. Also, once the US gets around to legalising gay marriage they will probably feel really happy about how progressive they are, and not care that other places have done it already.
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Re: Nepal legalizes gay marriage

Postby gmalivuk » Fri Dec 12, 2008 2:33 pm UTC

odenskrigare wrote:I don't know about citations, but from what I understand, the EU currently produces the most scientific literature.

The EU also has almost 200,000,000 more people than the US. So unless they produce 66% more scientific literature, the per capita output of the US is still higher.

(Since trying to discuss the topic of gay marriage legalization in Nepal is apparently a futile endeavor.)

odenskrigare wrote:Nepal is a Hindu country. Relatively speaking, it's the most Hindu country on Earth.

And Hinduism, unlike Christianity or Islam, doesn't actually much mention homosexuality in its texts. Though the Kama Sutra (which is more a cultural artifact than a religious one, but still relevant to attitudes in that general area of the world) does, and in positive terms. My understanding is that, in India at least, whether homosexuality is acceptable depends somewhat on caste.
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Re: Nepal legalizes gay marriage

Postby 22/7 » Fri Dec 12, 2008 2:46 pm UTC

Angua wrote:
22/7 wrote:
Angua wrote:I think the US isn't as progressive as it thinks it is sometimes, looking at its history of being behind the ball on something, it was fairly late on the whole abolishing slavery, integrating blacks and whites, and still hasn't had a woman as head of state.
Says the person living in the country who has never had a black head of state and only one woman, after which you went back to white men?
Ah, but I was living in a country with black heads of state. I said the US was behind the ball, I didn't say that they aren't progressive. The US tends to feel as though it is the greatest country on Earth and then wonders why other people don't like them all that much. Also, once the US gets around to legalising gay marriage they will probably feel really happy about how progressive they are, and not care that other places have done it already.
You're dancing quite a bit here.
bigglesworth wrote:The OP compared America to Nepal. It went from there. Keep up.
It wasn't so much a "how did that happen" as a "Oh, another thread that's not about how the US compares to the rest of the world becoming a thread about how the US compares to the rest of the world. GREAT!"
Totally not a hypothetical...

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Re: Nepal legalizes gay marriage

Postby gmalivuk » Sat Dec 13, 2008 6:20 pm UTC

I think it's worth noting that this is a supreme court decision, not a legislative or popular vote decision. If it works in Nepal like it does in the US, the Executive branch is technically permitted to just go ahead and continue ignoring the Supreme Court. Which is what they've largely been doing for about the past year, anyway, or at least dragging its feet about actually obeying the ruling of last December. It's a court order for the "government" (presumably meaning the legislative and/or executive) to formulate and enact laws granting LGBT rights.
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Re: Nepal legalizes gay marriage

Postby william » Sat Dec 13, 2008 9:24 pm UTC

Dammit, why are the courts always the ones saying "You know what? Maybe we should treat gays as actual people!"?
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