Store refuses to customize cake (Adolf Hitler Campbell)

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Re: Grocery store refuses to customize kid's cake

Postby Outchanter » Fri Dec 19, 2008 10:58 am UTC

Here's a straightforward comparison. Is CafePress allowed to enforce these terms of service?

https://www.cafepress.com/cp/info/help/ ... olicy.aspx

General Guidelines for Prohibited Content

* Content that may infringe on the rights of a third a party.
* Items that make inappropriate use of Nazi symbols and glamorize the actions of Hitler.
* Use of marks that signify hate towards another group of people.
* Hate and/or racist terms.
* Inappropriate content or nudity that is not artistic in nature.
* Content that exploits images or the likeness of minors.
* Obscene and vulgar comments and offensive remarks that harass, threaten, defame or abuse others such as F*** (Ethnic Group).
* Content that depicts violence, is obscene, abusive, fraudulent or threatening such as an image of a murder victim, morgue shots, promotion of suicide, etc.
* Content that glamorize the use of "hard core" illegal substance and drugs such as a person injecting a vial of a substance in their body.
* Material that is generally offensive or in bad taste, as determined by CafePress.com.

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Re: Grocery store refuses to customize kid's cake

Postby Malice » Fri Dec 19, 2008 11:02 am UTC

Grop wrote:What you guys are saying about protected groups is confusing me. Is discrimination ok, so long as it is not against a protected group? Is it wrong to refuse selling Happy Hanukkah because the Jews are protected, but ok to refuse to sell, say, a Happy Swiss National Day because the Swiss are not a protected group?


(Well, you have to consider a non-arbitrary list of protected groups. Which means we're talking about what should be, not necessarily what is already encoded in the laws. But--)

A protected group is protected essentially because it is unfair to punish somebody based on something they can't change. Birthplace, gender, orientation, skin color, etc., these are all things you can't change, and so it's unfair for somebody to treat you differently based on those attributes. However, nobody was born a neo-Nazi, or a Democrat, or whatever, and so political beliefs are fair game (for non-government organizations). Same for any particular opinion. You can walk into the cake store and say, "Gosh darn it, but I so love Japanese cars. Please draw an icing Yugo on my cake," and the guy behind the counter can say, "Screw you, I only draw American cars, because they are the best," and there's nothing legally or ethically wrong with that. It might not be nice, but it isn't against any particular moral code.

--

Ninja'd. CafePress is a little different, because you're asking them to sell things for you, not just sell things to you. As such they should be able to have control over what their corporate name is attached to.
But nothing in there seems unfair to me, at least in terms of the issue we're discussing.
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Re: Grocery store refuses to customize kid's cake

Postby Outchanter » Fri Dec 19, 2008 11:48 am UTC

Do you consider religion a choice?

Protected groups sounds like something that would require codifying racial divisions in law, which is a very bad idea. I think a simpler way to approach the situation is to say that while free speech allows you to say whatever you want, it does not allow you to force others to say things, even if you offer to pay them for it. Putting text on a cake or t-shirt, or translating a book into another language, or running an advertisement, are all extensions of this idea, and the person offering the service has the right to refuse any job due to its content (but not on the basis of who offers the job). In some cases this may make them a douche, but preventing douchiness is not the purpose of the law. The free market will usually take care of that.

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Re: Grocery store refuses to customize kid's cake

Postby T-Form » Fri Dec 19, 2008 12:24 pm UTC

Outchanter wrote:Here's a straightforward comparison. Is CafePress allowed to enforce these terms of service?

https://www.cafepress.com/cp/info/help/content_policy.aspx

General Guidelines for Prohibited Content

* Content that may infringe on the rights of a third a party.
* Items that make inappropriate use of Nazi symbols and glamorize the actions of Hitler.
* Use of marks that signify hate towards another group of people.
* Hate and/or racist terms.
* Inappropriate content or nudity that is not artistic in nature.
* Content that exploits images or the likeness of minors.
* Obscene and vulgar comments and offensive remarks that harass, threaten, defame or abuse others such as F*** (Ethnic Group).
* Content that depicts violence, is obscene, abusive, fraudulent or threatening such as an image of a murder victim, morgue shots, promotion of suicide, etc.
* Content that glamorize the use of "hard core" illegal substance and drugs such as a person injecting a vial of a substance in their body.
* Material that is generally offensive or in bad taste, as determined by CafePress.com.

Well, I can't really say; I have no idea how they'd interpret most of those points. For example, political expression - deserving of protection - would include a shirt (that is what they make, right?) that makes a statement about abortion (violence? Offensive?), or the legal status of cannabis (glamourising drug use?), or homosexuality (obscene? Offensive?), or euthanasia (violence? Suicide? Hate?), but it's not clear how they'd treat those. Their definition of "hate" isn't given - I'd say that anything that isn't direct incitement of violence should be permitted. That would mean "Nazi symbols" should be permitted, because abstract symbols aren't direct incitements of violence; if someone is willing to censor something that doesn't inherently cause harm, I wouldn't trust them to stop at the things that I don't like.

Outchanter wrote:Protected groups sounds like something that would require codifying racial divisions in law, which is a very bad idea.

Not at all. You just say "Discrimination on the grounds of race/ethnicity/nationality/etc is prohibited", and you're done. There's no need to list individual "races" or nations, just like there's no need to list all of the religions or political beliefs that are protected, no need to list exactly which sentences are covered by "free speech", and so on.

I think a simpler way to approach the situation is to say that while free speech allows you to say whatever you want, it does not allow you to force others to say things, even if you offer to pay them for it. Putting text on a cake or t-shirt, or translating a book into another language, or running an advertisement, are all extensions of this idea, and the person offering the service has the right to refuse any job due to its content (but not on the basis of who offers the job). In some cases this may make them a douche, but preventing douchiness is not the purpose of the law. The free market will usually take care of that.

"Usually"? I doubt that, given that the free market tolerates all sorts of other dodgy stuff. The free market is great when you're a straight rich white guy with no disabilities and mainstream religious or political beliefs; most of the cases where it fails will involve people who are already getting screwed by society in various other ways; they're the people who need that protection the most. Besides, there's no "forcing" others to say things - since you're keen on the free market, consider this interpretation: People make an offer to the market to say things at a certain cost, and they're obligated to keep that promise when a participant in the market agrees to use that service.

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Re: Grocery store refuses to customize kid's cake

Postby 22/7 » Fri Dec 19, 2008 1:49 pm UTC

Malice wrote:I fail to see the practical difference between the two, considering that only Jews will walk into the store and ask to buy a Hanukkah cake.
I'm thinking more along the lines of the cake shop premaking a bunch of cakes and Hanukkah cakes aren't on that list, not making a sheet cake and putting "Happy Hanukkah" on it. And are we even talking about this shop anymore? Because the store did what, in my mind at least, was the most understanding thing they could be expected to do (moreso, as far as I'm concerned) by offering to sell them the cake with room to write whatever they wanted.
Totally not a hypothetical...

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Re: Grocery store refuses to customize kid's cake

Postby Kizyr » Fri Dec 19, 2008 5:29 pm UTC

I don't think anyone has yet brought up specifically the justification that lunch counters in the 1960s used to refused to serve blacks. Basically, since it was a private institution, they could serve to whomever they wanted. Let's say there's general consensus that discrimination on that basis is wrong, even for a private company--then the question is, what's different about discriminating based on race, and discriminating based on a particular ideology? I think Malice answered that question pretty definitively:
Malice wrote:A protected group is protected essentially because it is unfair to punish somebody based on something they can't change. Birthplace, gender, orientation, skin color, etc., these are all things you can't change, and so it's unfair for somebody to treat you differently based on those attributes. However, nobody was born a neo-Nazi, or a Democrat, or whatever, and so political beliefs are fair game (for non-government organizations). Same for any particular opinion. You can walk into the cake store and say, "Gosh darn it, but I so love Japanese cars. Please draw an icing Yugo on my cake," and the guy behind the counter can say, "Screw you, I only draw American cars, because they are the best," and there's nothing legally or ethically wrong with that. It might not be nice, but it isn't against any particular moral code.

Though, I still think there's a second question: is there anything in particular about this ideology that's a sufficient justification for refusing to do anything to promote it?

With white supremacy, the answer's pretty clear. If the store in serving a customer produces a cake that appears to promote or condone white supremacy, that'd impose a risk on the part of the store--what the store sells reflects on its quality, so if the design is something that'd reasonably offend other potential customers, there's justification in refusing to make it.

If you're talking something like Kwanzaa or Hanukkah cakes, it's another matter. The store selling a Hanukkah or Kwanzaa cake isn't going to offend any reasonable person. If a store offers to make custom cakes, and we're not talking a specifically Christian store (although that still wouldn't rule out Kwanzaa), then there's no justification for refusing to custom-design either of those. KF
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Re: Grocery store refuses to customize kid's cake

Postby Malice » Fri Dec 19, 2008 11:05 pm UTC

Outchanter wrote:Do you consider religion a choice?


Not really, no. You can't just will yourself into believing something different.

I think a simpler way to approach the situation is to say that while free speech allows you to say whatever you want, it does not allow you to force others to say things, even if you offer to pay them for it. Putting text on a cake or t-shirt, or translating a book into another language, or running an advertisement, are all extensions of this idea, and the person offering the service has the right to refuse any job due to its content (but not on the basis of who offers the job).


1) Are you suggesting that putting icing on a cake constitutes "speech"?
2) Again: how can you have the right to refuse any job due to its content if, in some situations, that content is solely requested by a particular protected group? If I refuse to draw dreidels, am I not discriminating against Jews, because only Jews will ask for that?
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Re: Grocery store refuses to customize kid's cake

Postby mosc » Sat Dec 20, 2008 5:16 am UTC

Kudos to the store. It's the guy's right to be a total asshole and name his kid whatever he wants. It's the store's right to say: "you are at total asshole, I won't write what you tell me to just because you say so".

Your freedom stops where it takes away from somebody else's. The parents are exploiting their children to further their platform of hatred, not personal freedom. They are total assholes and we all have the right to treat them that way. I'm not advocating my superiority over the guy, just my freedom to say "fuck off". I'll leave the I'm better than you crap to the supremacist.
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Re: Grocery store refuses to customize kid's cake

Postby Outchanter » Sat Dec 20, 2008 8:16 am UTC

T-Form wrote:Besides, there's no "forcing" others to say things - since you're keen on the free market, consider this interpretation: People make an offer to the market to say things at a certain cost, and they're obligated to keep that promise when a participant in the market agrees to use that service.

They can just limit their offer to be "...subject to terms and conditions, such as no racist or hateful symbols".

Malice wrote:Not really, no. You can't just will yourself into believing something different.

Racists also have sincere beliefs that can't easily be changed. Does that make it acceptable? Socially, hopefully not. But legally you can't punish someone for their thoughts, as long as their actions remain within the law.

Malice wrote:1) Are you suggesting that putting icing on a cake constitutes "speech"?

In Texas v. Johnson the US supreme court ruled that burning the American flag was free speech and protected under the first amendment. IANAL, but this seems to indicate a broad interpretation of free speech which extends to the protection of freedom of expression in general.

Malice wrote:2) Again: how can you have the right to refuse any job due to its content if, in some situations, that content is solely requested by a particular protected group? If I refuse to draw dreidels, am I not discriminating against Jews, because only Jews will ask for that?

Yes, it would be discrimination, but not all forms of discrimination can be legislated against. A racist can choose never to buy products from a store owned by <insert ethnicity here> and as far as I know there's nothing the law can do about it. Refusing to place a common religious symbol on a cake would hopefully lead to a social backlash, but not a legal one.

If a law forced people to provide cakes with anything on, believe me it would be twisted to create unpleasant situations, even if it were limited to religious symbols. The swastika was (and still is) a holy Hindu symbol despite the Nazis' co-opting it. Selling a cake to a Hindu, with a swastika on it next to an aum symbol, would be very different to selling a cake with a Nazi flag design to a neo-Nazi. I think it would be better if subtle decisions of that nature were left to the store owner, with society as witness, than if they were left to the often clumsy arm of the law.
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Re: Grocery store refuses to customize kid's cake

Postby Pa-Patch » Sat Dec 20, 2008 9:37 am UTC

Outchanter wrote:
Malice wrote:Not really, no. You can't just will yourself into believing something different.

Racists also have sincere beliefs that can't easily be changed. Does that make it acceptable? Socially, hopefully not. But legally you can't punish someone for their thoughts, as long as their actions remain within the law.

Malice wrote:1) Are you suggesting that putting icing on a cake constitutes "speech"?

In Texas v. Johnson the US supreme court ruled that burning the American flag was free speech and protected under the first amendment. IANAL, but this seems to indicate a broad interpretation of free speech which extends to the protection of freedom of expression in general.


See, this isn't punishing someone for their beliefs. This is not wanting to write "Adolf Hitler" on a cake and sell the cake from your cake shop. No one can force you to.
This could be an issue (legally, not morally in my book) if say, these guys walked in wearing "Nazi's are super-great" shirts and the bakers said "Get the hell out, and you're not allowed to buy cake here". The bakers didn't track down these people for being supremacists or do anything other than refuse service.
If you were an artist and someone came in and asked you draw a big ol' Hitler portrait, or a giant penis monster, or anything else you didn't want to draw, you're allowed to turn them down. No one would think twice about that. It's the same thing even though this happens to be a cake.

Also, if you're writing words with the icing, yeah, it's speech. Same with drawings too, I'd imagine. The medium really isn't important, even if this one just sounds sillier than others.

As an aside, I wish there were a way we could stop people like that from having kids and doing their best to ruin their lives.

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Re: Grocery store refuses to customize kid's cake

Postby william » Sat Dec 20, 2008 10:36 am UTC

Malice wrote:1) Are you suggesting that putting icing on a cake constitutes "speech"?

What's the difference between icing and any other type of writing(also considered "speech", or at least "press")?
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Re: Grocery store refuses to customize kid's cake

Postby cypherspace » Sat Dec 20, 2008 1:53 pm UTC

william wrote:
Malice wrote:1) Are you suggesting that putting icing on a cake constitutes "speech"?

What's the difference between icing and any other type of writing(also considered "speech", or at least "press")?
Let's say there's none, for a second. Free speech also includes the right not to say whatever you want. This bakery store is not stopping this man from saying whatever the hell he wants. They are stopping themselves from saying it for him. If he forces them to do it, isn't he violating their rights of free speech?
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Re: Grocery store refuses to customize kid's cake

Postby Chfan » Sat Dec 20, 2008 2:17 pm UTC

cypherspace wrote:
william wrote:
Malice wrote:1) Are you suggesting that putting icing on a cake constitutes "speech"?

What's the difference between icing and any other type of writing(also considered "speech", or at least "press")?
Let's say there's none, for a second. Free speech also includes the right not to say whatever you want. This bakery store is not stopping this man from saying whatever the hell he wants. They are stopping themselves from saying it for him. If he forces them to do it, isn't he violating their rights of free speech?


This.

Additionally, the fact that the parents were offered to leave the cake blank so they could write it in was refused. This shows that the parents' goal was not just to get a cake with their son's name on it, but to make the store print something that was obviously a touchy subject to write on a cake. What's more, the store offered to sell them the cake even though the parents had already made their intentions clear (just without a name that would reflect badly on their business)- is that discrimination?

On a semi-related note, any parents who name their kids to be "funny" or to reflect their political views deserve to go to hell.
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Re: Grocery store refuses to customize kid's cake

Postby RealGrouchy » Sat Dec 20, 2008 3:15 pm UTC

Okay, dispatch with the religious comparisions, it's only confusing the discussion.

As far as analogies go, it's not a matter of a "Christmas" cake being served vs. a "Hannukah" cake being refused, and whether "Jews" are a protected group and whether this would be a violation of such status.

It's a matter of a "Christmas" cake being served vs. a "Rape and Kill all Christians" cake being refused. Replace "Christmas/Christians" with whatever group you like.

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Re: Grocery store refuses to customize kid's cake

Postby Outchanter » Sun Dec 21, 2008 2:11 am UTC

RealGrouchy wrote:It's a matter of a "Christmas" cake being served vs. a "Rape and Kill all Christians" cake being refused. Replace "Christmas/Christians" with whatever group you like.

More like a "Happy Birthday, Rape-and-Kill-all-Christians Campbell!" cake.

That way they can play the "innocent kid's birthday" card.

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Re: Grocery store refuses to customize kid's cake

Postby Spuddly » Tue Jan 06, 2009 12:42 pm UTC

T-Form wrote:
Outchanter wrote:Then Bob loses the sale (and possibly future sales from people who hear about it) and Mr. B. goes somewhere else for his cake.

That's not good enough; there's no guarantee that there's a "somewhere else" for Mr. B. to go. Nor is there a guarantee that if there is, that they'll make the cake for him. True, this might seem unlikely if he's a Jew in a big city, but what if he's a gay man in a smaller town, or a black man in a racist area? What if he doesn't have time to go around half a dozen cake shops? The "free" market is only free for non-demonised people with time and money to spare; the people who are already better off in many respects. If Bob doesn't want to make certain types of cake, then his business has the option of not making any cakes at all. What it can't do is segregate the market on certain grounds - race, nationality, sex, gender, sexual orientation, disability, religious belief, political belief, and so on - because the right to equal treatment is the only guarantee of access to those goods and services, and thus much more important than the ability for a business to determine where their cakes are going and where the money is coming from.


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Re: Grocery store refuses to customize kid's cake

Postby Allenr » Tue Jan 06, 2009 4:57 pm UTC

Agreed, we have no place to tell another person to make a cake, or do anything else they don't want to do. If I find the name Tom offensive and refuse to make a cake, too bad, go find someone else to make the cake.
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Re: Grocery store refuses to customize kid's cake

Postby natraj » Wed Jan 14, 2009 10:37 pm UTC

I don't really feel like making a whole new thread, though this has nothing to do with the cake, but apparently the child in question and his siblings have been taken out of their parents' home. I kind of wish this article had more details about why. It says there was no report of abuse or negligence, which worries me. (Not 'worries me' because of the lack of abuse. Worries me that they'd be taken away if there was none going on.)
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Re: Grocery store refuses to customize kid's cake

Postby Indon » Wed Jan 14, 2009 10:54 pm UTC

Yeah, as much personal distaste as I feel for those parents, I wouldn't want them discriminated against by the government.
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Re: Grocery store refuses to customize kid's cake

Postby IggyJack » Thu Jan 15, 2009 12:07 am UTC

PictureSarah wrote:...because said kid's name is Adolf Hitler.

http://www.lehighvalleylive.com/today/i ... angry.html

I think they should have made the cake...it's not the kid's fault that his parents have their head so far up their respective asses that they failed to realize how miserable the lives of their kids are going to be until they are old enough to either change them and GTFO or turn out just like their parents and only hang out with people who also think those names are pretty spiffy.
*sigh* Those parents, need to be shot. Whoever let them name their kids those racist fucking names, also needs to be hit over the head with a frying pan. Here's my problem, they didn't try to, even remotely, disguise the fact that they're refering to Hitler. They just up and came out with naming their kids this shit. See, if they had named the kid "Adolph" and that was it, i wouldnt have a problem. But they went with the whole fucking thing. Same for the other child. As for the story, the store had the right to say fuck you, considering any store has the right to refuse service to anyone, even goddamn Obama.
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Re: Grocery store refuses to customize kid's cake

Postby LibertyValance » Thu Jan 15, 2009 12:19 am UTC

T-Form wrote:
Outchanter wrote:Then Bob loses the sale (and possibly future sales from people who hear about it) and Mr. B. goes somewhere else for his cake.

That's not good enough; there's no guarantee that there's a "somewhere else" for Mr. B. to go. Nor is there a guarantee that if there is, that they'll make the cake for him. True, this might seem unlikely if he's a Jew in a big city, but what if he's a gay man in a smaller town, or a black man in a racist area? What if he doesn't have time to go around half a dozen cake shops? The "free" market is only free for non-demonised people with time and money to spare; the people who are already better off in many respects. If Bob doesn't want to make certain types of cake, then his business has the option of not making any cakes at all. What it can't do is segregate the market on certain grounds - race, nationality, sex, gender, sexual orientation, disability, religious belief, political belief, and so on - because the right to equal treatment is the only guarantee of access to those goods and services, and thus much more important than the ability for a business to determine where their cakes are going and where the money is coming from.


That's only true if Bob is refusing to make the cake based on who Mr. B is, rather than what he wants. Bob doesn't have to sell anything, even if he sells similar things, so long as he has the same standards and services for everybody. Just because Bob makes desserts doesn't mean I can force him to make a pie when all he wants to make is cakes.

This is true regardless of how Bob feels about Neo-Nazis, black people, Jews or whoever else. It seems to me that free speech is not the only issue in the original story. It's quite possible that the store doesn't want anybody seeing a cake that says Hitler in a box from their store, for PR purposes. They have every right to make a decision like that, and are not in any way infringing on anybody's rights.

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Re: Grocery store refuses to customize kid's cake

Postby btilly » Thu Jan 15, 2009 6:47 am UTC

T-Form wrote:
Spuddly wrote:
Nougatrocity wrote:So it's okay to discriminate against people for political beliefs?


Yes, of course.
Why wouldn't it be? It's their cake store, they should be allowed to do what they want with it. There's no right to cake.

There's a right* to be treated equally with respect to the provision of goods and services, though. Political beliefs have to be protected in that respect; if a business can refuse service or provide discounts based on political beliefs, they're effectively able to buy votes for preferred politicians or parties.

That's why we have a secret ballot. And no, there is no federal protection based on politics. For instance see what happened to Lynne Gobbell when she had a pro-Kerry bumper sticker and her boss was pro-Bush.

But there may be state protection. For instance California offers such protection, luckily enough for Linda Laroca.
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Re: Grocery store refuses to customize kid's cake

Postby yoni45 » Thu Jan 15, 2009 6:50 am UTC

So, update to the whole case, apparently the parents had the kids taken away:

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1055533.html
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Re: Grocery store refuses to customize kid's cake

Postby 22/7 » Thu Jan 15, 2009 1:41 pm UTC

Yeah, that article says no such thing. It's simply a condensed version of the previous article posted. This article indicates that Mr. Campbell actually isn't racist, and that the multitude of swastikas in his house weren't racist in nature. He also claims that the kids' names were chosen because no one else would have them, not because of their ties to Adolf Hitler or the Aryan Nation.


Oh, and apparently the guy's not German.
Totally not a hypothetical...

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Re: Grocery store refuses to customize kid's cake

Postby sje46 » Thu Jan 15, 2009 1:53 pm UTC

22/7 wrote:Yeah, that article says no such thing. It's simply a condensed version of the previous article posted. This article indicates that Mr. Campbell actually isn't racist, and that the multitude of swastikas in his house weren't racist in nature. He also claims that the kids' names were chosen because no one else would have them, not because of their ties to Adolf Hitler or the Aryan Nation.


Oh, and apparently the guy's not German.

Heh. You know, he could have named his kid Mohandas Ghandi Campbell and no one would have had that name. If he's not racist, I think, the only reason is because Jews technically aren't a race. But I never ran across "Aryan Nation" in a baby name book and decided I liked the sound of it. I don't understand why he would have swatzikas, name his kid after a anti-semitic dictator and deny the holocaust if he didn't know a thing about what the Nazis did. This guy really didn't know a thing until he turned on the History Channel?

Well, if it is true that he is an innocent guy, badly misinformed about one of the worst atrocities and humans in modern history, but still decent . .. .why would he still keep the name for his children? Yes, the name doesn't do any harm .. .but the bullies well. The employers not hiring them will. The kid is three. He will barely remember being called Hitler if everybody stopped right now.
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Re: Grocery store refuses to customize kid's cake

Postby 22/7 » Thu Jan 15, 2009 2:31 pm UTC

Yeah, the guy is pretty much entirely full of shit and trying to do a couple of things (removing the swastikas and admitting that the Holocaust may have happened) to make it look like he's not a completely worthless waste of oxygen. The whole "we didn't name our child Adolf Hitler after the dictator, but we deny the Holocaust ever happened, we have swastikas all over the house and we named another child Aryan Nation" bullshit is the cleverest cover a very unintelligent person could muster.
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Re: Grocery store refuses to customize kid's cake

Postby dic_penderyn » Thu Jan 15, 2009 7:33 pm UTC

22/7 wrote:Yeah, the guy is pretty much entirely full of shit and trying to do a couple of things (removing the swastikas and admitting that the Holocaust may have happened) to make it look like he's not a completely worthless waste of oxygen. The whole "we didn't name our child Adolf Hitler after the dictator, but we deny the Holocaust ever happened, we have swastikas all over the house and we named another child Aryan Nation" bullshit is the cleverest cover a very unintelligent person could muster.

I couldnt agree more.
It does now seem that the children have been taken into care.
http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/World- ... rsey_State

Officials removed Adolf Hitler Campbell and his sisters, JoyceLynn Aryan Nation and Honszlynn Hinler Jeannie, from their home in Holland Township, Sergeant John Harris said.

But the Division of Youth and Family Services (DYFS) did not reveal the reason why the children were taken into the custody of the state, he told Fox News.

How the hell are these por kids going to get a normal upbringing with these nutters for parents?

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Re: Grocery store refuses to customize kid's cake

Postby cwoodin » Thu Jan 15, 2009 9:24 pm UTC

While I don't know if it'll ever be released, I am curious why the kids were taken, especially taking a quote by the local sheriff into account:
Other article wrote:“They assured me that removing the children had nothing to do with their names or the birthday cake incident. There were other factors that we were not privy to,” Harris told NBC10’s Doug Shimell Wednesday.

The sergeant said based on his personal experiences with Heath Campbell he could not think what the circumstances would be.

“Just from knowing Mr. Campbell from the past ten or so years, I've never known him to abuse his children and when he has talked about his children he has been very much into his kids. Very loving,” Harris said.
If it's not because of the names, and the dad wasn't abusive (apparently), why were the kids taken? I can't say I agree with taking kids based on their names any more than I agree with naming them Adolf Hitler.
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Re: Grocery store refuses to customize kid's cake

Postby BrainMagMo » Sat Jan 17, 2009 3:31 am UTC

AndyG314 wrote:
Mm, I think I'm inclined to agree with the store. Certainly they should have the right to - they are a private business, entitled to take or refuse whatever business they like, provided that this doesn't amount to unlawful discrimination.

What if The Campbells opened up a grocery store, but wouldn't write anything on a cake that was against their whatever odd belief system they have, maybe they won't make a cake that says happy hanaka or something. People would be up in arms in a hurry, how refusing to write adolf hitler on a cake is any different is beyond me, and there are anti discrimination laws to prevent it. How this is any different is beyond me. Eather a store has to write anything requested on a cake or they can arbeterarly decide what they will write.

Moreover it's beyond me why stores do this sort of thing, and it in general it goes to show how overseriouly our society takes things. Write it on the cake and take their money, who cares.

i was under the impression that it would be legal to deny business on the basis of race. In USA at least. Not that such stores would last long.

RealGrouchy wrote:
AndyG314 wrote:
Mm, I think I'm inclined to agree with the store. Certainly they should have the right to - they are a private business, entitled to take or refuse whatever business they like, provided that this doesn't amount to unlawful discrimination.
What if The Campbells opened up a grocery store, but wouldn't write anything on a cake that was against their whatever odd belief system they have, maybe they won't make a cake that says happy hanaka or something. People would be up in arms in a hurry, how refusing to write adolf hitler on a cake is any different is beyond me,
Maybe it's because Hannukah wasn't a genocide?

- RG>
Tho' the OT is violent... and promotes the idea of a chosen race...
Last edited by BrainMagMo on Sat Jan 17, 2009 3:35 am UTC, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Store refuses to customize cake (Adolf Hitler Campbell)

Postby RealGrouchy » Sat Jan 17, 2009 3:52 am UTC

I've updated the thread title to more reflect that it's no longer just about the cake (hmm... that would make a good Schwarzenegger film tag line... "this time, it's no longer just about the cake!").

Naming your kid Adolf Hitler is a pretty fucked up thing to do, but it could be pulled off without being abusive of the children.

Using them as props in a media campaign to try to discredit a store is something that (combined with other stuff) warrants taking the kids away.

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Re: Grocery store refuses to customize kid's cake

Postby btilly » Sun Jan 18, 2009 6:11 am UTC

BrainMagMo wrote:i was under the impression that it would be legal to deny business on the basis of race. In USA at least. Not that such stores would last long.

My first reaction to your impression is that you are wrong. The 1964 Civil Rights Act banned discrimination on the basis of race, color, religion, sex or national origin. However when I went to look, the applicable section is Title 2, which bans discrimination in hotels, motels, restaurants, theaters, and all other public accommodations engaged in interstate commerce (private clubs are excluded). Which list would not seem to include bakeries.

So I can't say definitively that you are wrong. But I would be highly surprised if you are right.
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Re: Grocery store refuses to customize kid's cake

Postby Arancaytar » Mon Jan 19, 2009 11:21 am UTC

dic_penderyn wrote:
Officials removed Adolf Hitler Campbell and his sisters, JoyceLynn Aryan Nation and Honszlynn Hinler Jeannie, from their home in Holland Township, Sergeant John Harris said.

But the Division of Youth and Family Services (DYFS) did not reveal the reason why the children were taken into the custody of the state, he told Fox News.


Instead of getting custard, they lost custody. And that's right on, really. The point isn't whether a cake bears the words "Adolf Hitler" or not, when the child who receives it cannot even read. The point is that the parents who name their children like this are passing on anti-human indoctrination to them, which is psychologically damaging and will later be a severe hindrance in life. These parents are not fit to raise new members of society.
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Re: Grocery store refuses to customize kid's cake

Postby natraj » Mon Jan 19, 2009 5:25 pm UTC

Arancaytar wrote:Instead of getting custard, they lost custody. And that's right on, really. The point isn't whether a cake bears the words "Adolf Hitler" or not, when the child who receives it cannot even read. The point is that the parents who name their children like this are passing on anti-human indoctrination to them, which is psychologically damaging and will later be a severe hindrance in life. These parents are not fit to raise new members of society.


Yeah, but much as their ideas are disgusting and hateful, it's not the government's job to tell people what to think/believe. You can't dictate to people what ideas to pass on to their kids.
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