1200 killed, many more injured in Israeli attacks in Gaza

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1200 killed, many more injured in Israeli attacks in Gaza

Postby Dream » Sun Dec 28, 2008 3:38 am UTC

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 13838.html

This is simply incredible. I cannot begin to comprehend the treatment of Gaza and its citizens by Israel, and have always expected senseless violence. But this is far beyond anything that could be forseen, let alone justified. Almost one thousand casualties is impossible to weigh against the rocket attacks from Gaza, especially in a single attack. This is as bad as the invasion of Lebanon, or almost so, and equally disproportionate. In doing this, Israel must accept the responsibility for a massive escalation of the conflict.

The most shameful response is from Condoleezza Rice
"The United States strongly condemns the repeated rocket and mortar attacks against Israel and holds Hamas responsible for breaking the ceasefire and for the renewal of violence in Gaza. The ceasefire should be restored immediately. The US calls on all concerned to address the urgent humanitarian needs of the innocent people of Gaza."


I am sad, and very, very angry.

Added link: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 13839.html
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Re: 200 killed, 700 injured in Israeli air attack on Gaza

Postby Socal Swimmer » Sun Dec 28, 2008 4:40 am UTC

Dream wrote:http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/israeli-air-strikes-kill-200-and-leave-700-injured-1213838.html

This is simply incredible. I cannot begin to comprehend the treatment of Gaza and its citizens by Israel, and have always expected senseless violence. But this is far beyond anything that could be forseen, let alone justified. Almost one thousand casualties is impossible to weigh against the rocket attacks from Gaza, especially in a single attack. This is as bad as the invasion of Lebanon, or almost so, and equally disproportionate. In doing this, Israel must accept the responsibility for a massive escalation of the conflict.

The most shameful response is from Condoleezza Rice
"The United States strongly condemns the repeated rocket and mortar attacks against Israel and holds Hamas responsible for breaking the ceasefire and for the renewal of violence in Gaza. The ceasefire should be restored immediately. The US calls on all concerned to address the urgent humanitarian needs of the innocent people of Gaza."


I am sad, and very, very angry.

Added link: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 13839.html


just to be clear, Hamas was the group that broke the ceasefire, and re-opened hostilities. What Isreal did wasn't the best. They did not start a war, but instead acted to end ongoing attacks on their territory.
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Re: 200 killed, 700 injured in Israeli air attack on Gaza

Postby RealGrouchy » Sun Dec 28, 2008 6:21 am UTC

Of the various "International reactions" listed on the wikipedia page for the incident, I think the Vatican's is the most concise:
"Hamas is a prisoner to a logic of hate, Israel to a logic of faith in force as the best response to hate. One must continue to search for a different way out, even if that may seem impossible."

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Re: 200 killed, 700 injured in Israeli air attack on Gaza

Postby LeopoldBloom » Sun Dec 28, 2008 7:30 am UTC

RealGrouchy wrote:Of the various "International reactions" listed on the wikipedia page for the incident, I think the Vatican's is the most concise:
"Hamas is a prisoner to a logic of hate, Israel to a logic of faith in force as the best response to hate. One must continue to search for a different way out, even if that may seem impossible."

- RG>


I believe them both to be prisoners of religious fundamentalism. It seems nearly all conflict in the past twenty years can be trace directly to this.

Anyway. *cuts tape* let the flame war begin!
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Re: 200 killed, 700 injured in Israeli air attack on Gaza

Postby The Great Hippo » Sun Dec 28, 2008 7:33 am UTC

LeopoldBloom wrote:I believe them both to be prisoners of religious fundamentalism. It seems nearly all conflict in the past twenty years can be trace directly to this.


I actually think romantic nationalism is the true culprit; religious fundamentalism excites and augments it.

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Re: 200 killed, 700 injured in Israeli air attack on Gaza

Postby Dream » Sun Dec 28, 2008 8:33 am UTC

Socal Swimmer wrote:just to be clear, Hamas was the group that broke the ceasefire, and re-opened hostilities. What Isreal did wasn't the best. They did not start a war, but instead acted to end ongoing attacks on their territory.

And to be clearer, HAMAS' only demands to maintain the ceasefire was the lifting of the almost total blockade on Gaza, which was refused. So Israel has basically been poking a hornet's nest (most recently) created by the blockade, and complaining about the stings. Well, I do not defend those stings, they are murderous attacks on civilians, and indiscriminate. But they are not unprovoked. Gaza is under a literally medieval siege, and responsibility is not a zero sum game. Israel is as guilty for its part of the situation as HAMAS is for its own. And Israel has taken the hornet's nest and hit it with a big stick. If the conflict soon flares up, as it surely will, Israel will be entirely to blame for the consequences. It just threw away the high ground with regard to qassam rocket attacks, as it has clearly demonstrated its absolute contempt for human life in Gaza.

Many people will remember this contempt from bombings of power plants and refusals of humanitarian aid. The litany of these abuses is long. But each of those is individually smaller than this, being only a horrifying tragedy to those it affects. But now, in the face of such a spectacular assault, HAMAS must act. It cannot allow these attacks to pass, as since its election it is responsible for protecting Gazan people from Israeli attacks. Israel knows this, and acted knowing this. The conflagaration that will arise from this is entirely on Israel's hands, and as such, Israel cannot point to recent rocket attacks as ustification. If it could, it must have acted in a manner that would limit those attacks, not produce ever more of them.
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Re: 200 killed, 700 injured in Israeli air attack on Gaza

Postby Lucrece » Sun Dec 28, 2008 8:54 am UTC

Dream wrote:
Socal Swimmer wrote:just to be clear, Hamas was the group that broke the ceasefire, and re-opened hostilities. What Isreal did wasn't the best. They did not start a war, but instead acted to end ongoing attacks on their territory.

And to be clearer, HAMAS' only demands to maintain the ceasefire was the lifting of the almost total blockade on Gaza, which was refused. So Israel has basically been poking a hornet's nest (most recently) created by the blockade, and complaining about the stings. Well, I do not defend those stings, they are murderous attacks on civilians, and indiscriminate. But they are not unprovoked. Gaza is under a literally medieval siege, and responsibility is not a zero sum game. Israel is as guilty for its part of the situation as HAMAS is for its own. And Israel has taken the hornet's nest and hit it with a big stick. If the conflict soon flares up, as it surely will, Israel will be entirely to blame for the consequences. It just threw away the high ground with regard to qassam rocket attacks, as it has clearly demonstrated its absolute contempt for human life in Gaza.

Many people will remember this contempt from bombings of power plants and refusals of humanitarian aid. The litany of these abuses is long. But each of those is individually smaller than this, being only a horrifying tragedy to those it affects. But now, in the face of such a spectacular assault, HAMAS must act. It cannot allow these attacks to pass, as since its election it is responsible for protecting Gazan people from Israeli attacks. Israel knows this, and acted knowing this. The conflagaration that will arise from this is entirely on Israel's hands, and as such, Israel cannot point to recent rocket attacks as ustification. If it could, it must have acted in a manner that would limit those attacks, not produce ever more of them.


By this logic you can also justify 9/11 and other terrorist attacks. Most of these bombings result from resentment.

HAMAS was well aware of the manipulation; they placed themselves in zones with likely civilian victims in order to spark this kind of outcry. And yet, nobody is talking about HAMAS using their own people as meat shields for the sake of political expediency.

Then again, I doubt most of the posters angry at Israel simply didn't have long-awaited axe to grind, regardless of whether this happened or not.
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Re: 200 killed, 700 injured in Israeli air attack on Gaza

Postby Maurog » Sun Dec 28, 2008 9:11 am UTC

Wait, Gaza has a border with Egypt, does it not? If people say that the rockets are in response to a "blockade", where are the rockets launched at Egypt? It takes all your neighbors for a total blockade.

The way I see it, the problem is Hamas, and that is the main cause of the misery of the Palestinian people. Hamas is the government equivalent of a hobo, give it money to buy food and it will spend it on rockets instead. Give it food, and it will sell it and buy rockets. It doesn't care one bit for its own people.

As long as there is Hamas, there will be no peace.
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Re: 200 killed, 700 injured in Israeli air attack on Gaza

Postby MightyPenguin » Sun Dec 28, 2008 10:24 am UTC

So punishment fitting the crime is out the window now? Also what's extremely amusing to me is how everyone was bleating about the lack of democracy in the Middle-East and as soon as Hamas was elected everyone went batshit about it and started making threats...way to help things.

Bombing the crap out of a tiny territory and then blaming Hamas for the civilian casualties is the dumbest thing I have ever heard. Wtf did you expect would happen?

Then again, I doubt most of the posters angry at Israel simply didn't have long-awaited axe to grind, regardless of whether this happened or not.


Kinda hard not to have an axe to grind about it. What I would like to know is why are people defending their actions every single time regardless of context.

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Re: 200 killed, 700 injured in Israeli air attack on Gaza

Postby Maurog » Sun Dec 28, 2008 10:41 am UTC

Punishment fitting the crime applies to legal systems. Sure, it would be easier if what passes for government in Gaza would round up all the people who launch the rockets and give them to Israel to be executed, but that's just not happening.

If you have a better way to stop the rockets than bombing the hell out of launch sites, production sites and the administration that coordinates it all, feel free to share. The civilians who died in the strikes are not "being punished", they are innocent victims of the attacks aimed exclusively at militants. Nobody denies that, except the question is, what are the militants doing entrenched among civilian population in the first place?
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Re: 200 killed, 700 injured in Israeli air attack on Gaza

Postby MightyPenguin » Sun Dec 28, 2008 10:49 am UTC

That's what i was saying...the bloody place is so small there's nowhere to bloody hide that doesn't have civilians nearby. I remember reading somewhere that the Gaza strip is the most crowded place on Earth (I or the source might be wrong ofc). So where would you have them hide?

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Re: 200 killed, 700 injured in Israeli air attack on Gaza

Postby clintonius » Sun Dec 28, 2008 6:46 pm UTC

Maurog wrote:Punishment fitting the crime applies to legal systems.

You should make yourself familiar with just war theory before spouting off statements like this. In particular, pay attention to jus in bello, or just actions during war (who "started" this conflict, the aspect of war covered in jus ad bellum, is something that will likely never be agreed upon and this isn't the place to argue it). Proportionality is a requirement for a just war. That doesn't mean it's going to stop attacks like this from happening, but it sure as shit is justification for condemning them. Waving off the idea as appropriate only to legal systems is no way to act in the wake of such an event.
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Re: 200 killed, 700 injured in Israeli air attack on Gaza

Postby Lucrece » Sun Dec 28, 2008 6:55 pm UTC

MightyPenguin wrote:That's what i was saying...the bloody place is so small there's nowhere to bloody hide that doesn't have civilians nearby. I remember reading somewhere that the Gaza strip is the most crowded place on Earth (I or the source might be wrong ofc). So where would you have them hide?


Measures could have been taken. Or, you know, going back to history of Israel's military prowess, they should have known better than to attack. Whatever happened to the diplomatic measures that people are talking about when referring to Israel? Why can't diplomacy be expected of the other side, too?
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Re: 200 killed, 700 injured in Israeli air attack on Gaza

Postby Darkscull » Sun Dec 28, 2008 7:10 pm UTC

Socal Swimmer wrote:They did not start a war, but instead acted to end ongoing attacks on their territory.


So you think that this will stop further attacks?

I think not even the israelis think that this will 'end ongoing attacks', it's just a punishment, and a collective one at that.

Obviously they needed to do something, but this was just stupid.

Maurog wrote:Wait, Gaza has a border with Egypt, does it not? If people say that the rockets are in response to a "blockade", where are the rockets launched at Egypt? It takes all your neighbors for a total blockade.

The way I see it, the problem is Hamas, and that is the main cause of the misery of the Palestinian people. Hamas is the government equivalent of a hobo, give it money to buy food and it will spend it on rockets instead. Give it food, and it will sell it and buy rockets. It doesn't care one bit for its own people.

As long as there is Hamas, there will be no peace.


IIRC, Israel controls the border with Egypt.

As far as interactions with the outside world are concerned, both Gaza and the West bank are within Israel's borders, they control all movement in and out (or at least try to).

About Hamas, two things:

1. Has anyone ever given them food or money for food? if so, did they do what you say they would?
I haven't looked for that specifically, and I won't do so now (no time), but I don't recall anyone ever actually doing that.

2. "as long as there is Hamas, there will be no peace".
Yeah, because all was fine and dandy before they came along, right?
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Re: 200 killed, 700 injured in Israeli air attack on Gaza

Postby Lumpy » Sun Dec 28, 2008 9:10 pm UTC

Aid by the U.S. to the Palestinians was entirely revoked when Hamas won the elections, I think, but I'm not sure about other countries.

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Re: 200 killed, 700 injured in Israeli air attack on Gaza

Postby '; DROP DATABASE;-- » Sun Dec 28, 2008 9:43 pm UTC

http://www.reuters.com/article/topNews/ ... ws&sp=true is another article about this. Dammit people... </war> THERE, STOP KILLING EACHOTHER ALREADY >8^(

Too bad it's not that easy.
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Re: 200 killed, 700 injured in Israeli air attack on Gaza

Postby apeman5291 » Sun Dec 28, 2008 10:07 pm UTC

Personally, I'm a die-hard pacifist, and what needs to happen is for both sides to swallow their pride and be willing to compromise. Nobody's going to get all of what they want. What is likely to happen, on the other hand, is for this freaking guerrilla war with human shields to continue for quite some time, until the US grows some balls and takes action against somebody (Probably by ending aid to Israel.)

For two such tiny countries, everybody's so divisive and biased though. Let me summarize the attitudes of all of the Israelis and Palestinians I know:
They get attacked: "OMIGOD!! It's murder!! Genocide!! They're just like the Nazis!! How cruel!!"
They attack the other side: "Hooray for justice!! We killed X number of their people!! The world has been set right!! Freedom!!"
Lather. Rinse. Repeat.
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Re: 200 killed, 700 injured in Israeli air attack on Gaza

Postby Lumpy » Sun Dec 28, 2008 10:12 pm UTC

I thought I had read in BBC International that one of the conditions for the ceasefire was that Israel would lift the Palestinian blockade. Israel decided not to do that after people in Palestine had continuously launched rocket attacks at civilians, but they weren't Hamas-sanctioned attacks, instead done by independent extremists. Therefore I'd assume Hamas not to be at fault for the ending of the ceasefire if that were true, and responsible for it if they decided to tack on total lifting of the blockade, which I read now. I don't know what to make of it.

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Re: 200 killed, 700 injured in Israeli air attack on Gaza

Postby Silas » Sun Dec 28, 2008 11:23 pm UTC

So here's my question about the cease-fire deal that ended on the 17th. I've only read about it in English, and there's an ambiguity in the language. The terms, as I understand it, were like this.
Hamas will:
Stop attacks from the Gaza Strip on Israel, especially rocket and mortar strikes on Sderot.

Israel will:
Lift the blockade of the Gaza Strip (for only some goods, maybe? I'm a little hazy.)
Stop attacks on targets in the Strip.

and the understanding was that if Hamas didn't hold up their commitment, Israel wouldn't lift the blockade, which was intended- publically at least- to prevent the flow of supplies that made those attacks possible.

So the question is, what's meant by 'stop?' Did they mean 'quit doing that,' or 'keep anybody from doing that?' Because that really decides the issue of who dropped the ball on keeping the truce.
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Re: 200 killed, 700 injured in Israeli air attack on Gaza

Postby segmentation fault » Mon Dec 29, 2008 4:29 pm UTC

Socal Swimmer wrote:but instead acted to end ongoing attacks on their territory.


yeah, killing the people you are essentially starving will definitely make the oppressed see the light...
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Re: 200 killed, 700 injured in Israeli air attack on Gaza

Postby BlackSails » Mon Dec 29, 2008 5:51 pm UTC

Silas wrote:So the question is, what's meant by 'stop?' Did they mean 'quit doing that,' or 'keep anybody from doing that?' Because that really decides the issue of who dropped the ball on keeping the truce.


Besides the fact that Hamas admits that they are the ones firing rockets....

I doubt its spelled out in the treaty. But governments are usually held accountable for terrorists in their countries. The taliban was held accountable for Al Quada, Serbia was held accountable for the Black Hand, etc. Of course, there is some limit to this. If ETA were to relocate to France and stage out of there, I doubt that Spain would attack France. Of course, France would probably be trying to get rid of ETA.


Anyway, Hamas is probably just trying to provoke Israel. Israelis have gotten their routines down so that casualties from the rockets barrages are fairly low. Hamas is just trying to provoke Israel into invading, so they can kidnap a few more soldiers. (Note that invasion is a perfectly legit response to a casus belli like rocket attacks)

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Re: 200 killed, 700 injured in Israeli air attack on Gaza

Postby Silas » Mon Dec 29, 2008 6:54 pm UTC

BlackSails wrote:Besides the fact that Hamas admits that they are the ones firing rockets....

That's a recent development. I'm looking at what happened around six months ago, when the deal was new. The timeline, as I've put it together goes like this:

June 17: Israel, Hamas announce a 6-month truce in Gaza. Israel will stop bombing the place and lift the blockade, Hamas will stop rocket attacks from the territory.
June ~18: Pretty much every Palestinian except Hamas announces, "Hamas doesn't speak for us. There is no truce unless it includes the West Bank." Hamas replies, "screw you guys. We run Gaza."
June ~23?: IDF kills two Palestinians in Nablus (West Bank), including an Islamic Jihad commander.
June 24: Islamic Jihad launches rockets from Gaza.
Soon after: Israel says, "so much for the deal. No dice on lifting the blockade."
And there are no surprises from there on.
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Re: 200 killed, 700 injured in Israeli air attack on Gaza

Postby segmentation fault » Mon Dec 29, 2008 8:08 pm UTC

BlackSails wrote:Besides the fact that Hamas admits that they are the ones firing rockets....


http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/11/14/ ... 15gaza.php

its alot more complicated than just "hamas is firing rockets and that automatically makes them the only faulting party."

BlackSails wrote:I doubt its spelled out in the treaty. But governments are usually held accountable for terrorists in their countries. The taliban was held accountable for Al Quada, Serbia was held accountable for the Black Hand, etc. Of course, there is some limit to this. If ETA were to relocate to France and stage out of there, I doubt that Spain would attack France. Of course, France would probably be trying to get rid of ETA.


this is something that i disagree with. the whole "blame a nation and its government for the actions of a few criminals" has caused more problems that it is supposed to solve.

BlackSails wrote:Anyway, Hamas is probably just trying to provoke Israel.


why? theres no reason. and the "kidnap soldiers" bit was slightly ignorant.

hamas damn well knows israel can blow them and the rest of the palestinians out of existence. hamas WANTS a ceasefire. israel needs to stop stepping on toes, and both need to realize they need to give to get.
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Re: 200 killed, 700 injured in Israeli air attack on Gaza

Postby Heisenberg » Mon Dec 29, 2008 8:17 pm UTC

This is really a question of proportionality. If Puerto Rico shot rockets at Florida that caused some property damage, would airstrikes killing 300 Puerto Ricans be a proportional response? I'd go with no, myself, but then again, I've got this weird notion that all men are created equal.

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Re: 200 killed, 700 injured in Israeli air attack on Gaza

Postby Hawknc » Mon Dec 29, 2008 10:15 pm UTC

Are there any figures on how many of the dead and injured are Hamas, and how many are civilians?

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Re: 200 killed, 700 injured in Israeli air attack on Gaza

Postby Darkscull » Mon Dec 29, 2008 10:33 pm UTC

Hawknc wrote:Are there any figures on how many of the dead and injured are Hamas, and how many are civilians?


Considering that Hamas is the government, how do you make the distinction?

I mean, I'm sure there are clerks and such who would consider themselves Hamas, do they not count as civilians?

Also, a lot of the dead are apparently Hamas police/security officers, where do they come in?


That's the problem with the entire situation in Gaza at the moment. Everyone is treating Hamas like a run-of-the-mill terrorist organisation, when they're something different, and are inextricably linked with the general population until such point as they lose popular support (which will probably because of supporters dying rather than people changing their minds).

The distinction I'd use would be: if they're firing rockets, they're bad. If intelligence indicates they order attacks and such, they're bad.
However that's obviously not the way Israel sees it.
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Re: 200 killed, 700 injured in Israeli air attack on Gaza

Postby Izawwlgood » Mon Dec 29, 2008 10:33 pm UTC

segmentation fault wrote:hamas damn well knows israel can blow them and the rest of the palestinians out of existence. hamas WANTS a ceasefire. israel needs to stop stepping on toes, and both need to realize they need to give to get.


Based on what I've read, I firmly, vehemently, absolutely 100% disagree with what I bolded in your quote. But, hey, isn't that what these Israel-Palestine threads always turn into?

Hawknc wrote:Are there any figures on how many of the dead and injured are Hamas, and how many are civilians?


Well, one side claims Hamas members are soldiers, the other claims that everyone is a civilian.
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Re: 200 killed, 700 injured in Israeli air attack on Gaza

Postby segmentation fault » Mon Dec 29, 2008 10:50 pm UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:Based on what I've read, I firmly, vehemently, absolutely 100% disagree with what I bolded in your quote. But, hey, isn't that what these Israel-Palestine threads always turn into?


http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/932364.html

there you go. its from last year, but maybe it will only make you disagree 99%.
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Re: 200 killed, 700 injured in Israeli air attack on Gaza

Postby Hawknc » Mon Dec 29, 2008 10:56 pm UTC

How many are Hamas members, then? I'm just having trouble believing that, of the 1000+ casualties so far, every one of them was a government or military target.

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Re: 200 killed, 700 injured in Israeli air attack on Gaza

Postby apeman5291 » Mon Dec 29, 2008 11:08 pm UTC

It really doesn't matter to either side whether they kill civilians or military. The situation is a war of attrition. The goal is not to render the military unable to fight, it is to break the will of the entire country by bleeding it dry. Right now, Israel is doing a very good job of that. Yes it's horrible, yes it needs to stop, but such is war.
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Re: 200 killed, 700 injured in Israeli air attack on Gaza

Postby Gunfingers » Mon Dec 29, 2008 11:11 pm UTC

According to cnn:
The Palestinian death toll from the campaign has topped 300, most of them Hamas militants, Palestinian medical sources said Monday. The attacks also have wounded about 650 people, the sources said.

Whatever "most" means.

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Re: 200 killed, 700 injured in Israeli air attack on Gaza

Postby apeman5291 » Mon Dec 29, 2008 11:17 pm UTC

Gunfingers wrote:Whatever "most" means


Over 150?
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Re: 200 killed, 700 injured in Israeli air attack on Gaza

Postby Darkscull » Mon Dec 29, 2008 11:26 pm UTC

apeman5291 wrote:
Gunfingers wrote:Whatever "most" means


Over 150?


150.5

150 militants, and a small child with an "I <3 Hamas" t shirt on.
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Re: 200 killed, 700 injured in Israeli air attack on Gaza

Postby Silas » Mon Dec 29, 2008 11:31 pm UTC

Through the BBC, the UN reports 320 dead in Gaza, including 62 civilians, and two civilians dead in Israel.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7803711.stm
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Re: 200 killed, 700 injured in Israeli air attack on Gaza

Postby Dream » Mon Dec 29, 2008 11:41 pm UTC

There is a reasonably clear distinction between HAMAS militants and HAMAS civil servants. There are HAMAS civilian police, politicians and all of the usual organs of state, and these people are not murdering Israelis. They are trying to carve some semblance of normality out of the cauldron that Israel has imprisoned them in. So, in counting dead HAMAS members, one must count people like the police recruits who were bombed on the first day of the attacks. These are civilians. They no more deserve to die than do Likud voters in Israel or neoconservatives in the US. If a person can be deemed non-civilian solely on their political sympathies then there are a lot of legitimate targets in the world that are being mistakenly thought of as non-combatant. Because HAMAS is the governing party in Gaza, it has legitimate, non-terrorist roles. Counting HAMAS dead vs. civilian dead is a useless exercise here.
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Re: 200 killed, 700 injured in Israeli air attack on Gaza

Postby Darkscull » Tue Dec 30, 2008 12:24 am UTC

Dream wrote:Counting HAMAS dead vs. civilian dead is a useless exercise here.


Precisely.

A better way of doing it would be to see how many of the dead were actually in a position to threaten Israel (ie. involved in the rocket attacks, either in carrying them out or ordering them), and how many had nothing to do with them.

I doubt that that will ever be done. I'm sure that if it was though, Israel would have a harder time defending it's actions.
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Re: 200 killed, 700 injured in Israeli air attack on Gaza

Postby Gunfingers » Tue Dec 30, 2008 12:27 am UTC

The bbc article is unclear, but cnn specifically said "militants".

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Re: 200 killed, 700 injured in Israeli air attack on Gaza

Postby Izawwlgood » Tue Dec 30, 2008 1:46 am UTC

I think the language used by people of either pursuasion is really telling. Dream uses language like:
Dream wrote:cauldron that Israel has imprisoned them in.


Discourse or discussion is difficult to come by when people use such intentionally loaded language. These Middle east threads are always the same. Maybe a good step towards actual discussion would be trying as hard as possible to be as unbiased, and using precise language instead of sensational imagery.

@Seg fault: Good article, but a common thing I see happening here (again), is the statement that 'some palestinians want peace' but 'all israeli's want war' A quick search reveals a handful of articles of Israeli parties asking for ceasefires and pushing forward dialog. That doesn't excuse the actions of Israel at large, but neither does your article.
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Re: 200 killed, 700 injured in Israeli air attack on Gaza

Postby Dream » Tue Dec 30, 2008 2:37 am UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:I think the language used by people of either pursuasion is really telling. Dream uses language like:
Dream wrote:cauldron that Israel has imprisoned them in.


Discourse or discussion is difficult to come by when people use such intentionally loaded language.

I disagree. "Israel has imprisoned them" alone is an absolutely factual statement. The word "cauldron" is not, I believe, a bad, inaccurate, or biased way to describe the ongoing situation in Gaza, which is entirely blockaded, and reliant on a tiny trickle of aid for survival. Malnutrition, for instance is rampant. Your argument is a negative version of the old canard about "balanced" reporting. It is balanced to report accurately, not to report evenly. This is not an even situation, so my language is not even.
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Re: 200 killed, 700 injured in Israeli air attack on Gaza

Postby RealGrouchy » Tue Dec 30, 2008 2:52 am UTC

I'm just popping by to remind everyone that moderators are paying attention to this thread. With the exception of the last two posts, this has avoided the common downward spiral of threads on this topic.

Thanks for keeping it civil so far.

Continue.

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