1200 killed, many more injured in Israeli attacks in Gaza

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Re: 200 killed, 700 injured in Israeli air attack on Gaza

Postby Malice » Mon Jan 12, 2009 4:53 am UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:
Malice wrote:I think they should ignore Hamas completely and do what's best for the people of Gaza.


But Israel's basically been 'ignoring' the missiles coming from Gaza for the last 5ish years, if not much longer. This isn't an isolated incident, Israel didn't start this campaign because of a 'couple missiles'.


So? Yes, there has been about 1000 missiles (apparently really piss-poor ones, because they've still only killed like less than 20 people). That's a lot! I'm not suggesting that Israel ignores that. I'm suggesting that if they actually want the missiles to stop, they have either make nice or kill everyone. Of the two, making nice is harder, but it'll come out better in the long run.
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Re: 200 killed, 700 injured in Israeli air attack on Gaza

Postby Nukewaste » Mon Jan 12, 2009 5:05 am UTC

Malice wrote:
Izawwlgood wrote:
Malice wrote:I think they should ignore Hamas completely and do what's best for the people of Gaza.


But Israel's basically been 'ignoring' the missiles coming from Gaza for the last 5ish years, if not much longer. This isn't an isolated incident, Israel didn't start this campaign because of a 'couple missiles'.


So? Yes, there has been about 1000 missiles (apparently really piss-poor ones, because they've still only killed like less than 20 people). That's a lot! I'm not suggesting that Israel ignores that. I'm suggesting that if they actually want the missiles to stop, they have either make nice or kill everyone. Of the two, making nice is harder, but it'll come out better in the long run.


Don't mistake the ability to kill with the intent to.

Just because Hamas and other terror organizations in Gaza aren't very good at killing Israeli citizens, that doesn't mean they aren't trying to.

If I put a gun to your head and pull the trigger, but the gun doesn't work, the cops don't say "Oh, well, all's well that ends well! Tata!" They arrest me for attempted murder.

And if you listen to Hamas, and their view of thing, you know they basically exist only to destroy Israel. So yes, making nice is infinitely harder when the people you're trying to negotiate with have sworn themselves to your death.

All the 'making nice' of the past 8 years, including removal of the settlements in 2005, and the continued supply of electicity and food and medicine from Israel to the strip, has only increased the number of rockets fired, and made Hamas think they were on the right track, all along.

So talking really isn't an option, which unfortunately leaves only one. And if you turn on the news, there it is.
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Re: 200 killed, 700 injured in Israeli air attack on Gaza

Postby Izawwlgood » Mon Jan 12, 2009 5:15 am UTC

As an aside, the number of missiles launched from Gaza is more in the +5000 range since '00
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Re: 200 killed, 700 injured in Israeli air attack on Gaza

Postby Fett42 » Mon Jan 12, 2009 5:16 am UTC

Israel unilaterally pulled out of Gaza in 2005, Hamas won elections in 2006, and in 2007 they finished kicking out or killing or surpressing Fatah in Gaza.

Combined total of rocket and mortar hits on Israel from Gaza by year (not including after the Israeli offensive started):

2005: 417
2006: 968
2007: 1639
2008: 3278

(Source: "Qassam Rocket and Mortar Attacks" <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Qassam_Rocket_Attacks>, and "HAMAS Rockets" <http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/para/hamas-qassam.htm>)

If you're Israel I don't know how you can justify to your people NOT taking military action at this point when people are making this much of an attempt to kill them. As was pointed out, intent is what matters. Why wait until they get more effective?

Also, the IDF reports that the rate of rocket attacks is now 50% of what it was before the beginning of Operation Cast Lead.

(Source: IDF says Qassam attacks down 50% since Cast Lead launched" <http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1054596.html>)

Side note: I wonder how much food / medical equipment could have been supplied to the people of Gaza in place of the money they've spent on weapons and training.
Last edited by Fett42 on Mon Jan 12, 2009 5:25 am UTC, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 200 killed, 700 injured in Israeli air attack on Gaza

Postby Nukewaste » Mon Jan 12, 2009 5:23 am UTC

Fett42 wrote:Side note: I wonder how much food / medical equipment could have been supplied to the people of Gaza in place of the money they've spent on weapons and training.


Further side note: When Israel disengaged (Removed settlements) they left all the food-growing greenhouses intact, which raised food worth millions in export value.

And in the next few days of Palestinian control, they were all destroyed in a flurry of gunfire and "Allahu Akbar!"

As (I believe) Arafat once said, "The Palestinian people have never missed an opportunity to miss an opportunity."

*Correction*
Israeli stateman Abba Eban said that about Arafat. Regardless, it's been quoted often enough by both sides of the conflict to be somewhat of a mantra.

Another quote of his: "history teaches us that men and nations only behave wisely once they have exhausted all other alternatives" is perhaps just as relevant.
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Re: 200 killed, 700 injured in Israeli air attack on Gaza

Postby Dream » Mon Jan 12, 2009 7:04 am UTC

Nukewaste wrote:Further side note: When Israel disengaged (Removed settlements) they left all the food-growing greenhouses intact, which raised food worth millions in export value.

And in the next few days of Palestinian control, they were all destroyed in a flurry of gunfire and "Allahu Akbar!"

Casual racism aside, do you have cites for each of the assertions in those sentences? That greenhouses were deliberately left intact, that those greenhouses were economically significant in export terms, that they were destroyed within days of Israeli troops leaving, and that the destruction was in some way linked to Islam?
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Re: 200 killed, 700 injured in Israeli air attack on Gaza

Postby Malice » Mon Jan 12, 2009 7:08 am UTC

Nukewaste wrote:
Malice wrote:
Izawwlgood wrote:
Malice wrote:I think they should ignore Hamas completely and do what's best for the people of Gaza.


But Israel's basically been 'ignoring' the missiles coming from Gaza for the last 5ish years, if not much longer. This isn't an isolated incident, Israel didn't start this campaign because of a 'couple missiles'.


So? Yes, there has been about 1000 missiles (apparently really piss-poor ones, because they've still only killed like less than 20 people). That's a lot! I'm not suggesting that Israel ignores that. I'm suggesting that if they actually want the missiles to stop, they have either make nice or kill everyone. Of the two, making nice is harder, but it'll come out better in the long run.


Don't mistake the ability to kill with the intent to.

Just because Hamas and other terror organizations in Gaza aren't very good at killing Israeli citizens, that doesn't mean they aren't trying to.

If I put a gun to your head and pull the trigger, but the gun doesn't work, the cops don't say "Oh, well, all's well that ends well! Tata!" They arrest me for attempted murder.


Metaphor failure. Cops have overwhelming force and the goodwill of the population. Imagine instead there's a ghetto area where cops fear to tread, and occasionally the people in the ghetto get mad and fire a few random bullets off into the surrounding neighborhood. And then one of the bullets almost hits somebody. Do the cops go in and try to find that person, knowing it's going to piss off the locals and potentially lead to a riot? Or do they let it fucking slide? International relations do not easily compare to police actions.

And if you listen to Hamas, and their view of thing, you know they basically exist only to destroy Israel. So yes, making nice is infinitely harder when the people you're trying to negotiate with have sworn themselves to your death.


I keep saying, make nice with the people, not Hamas. Fuck Hamas.

All the 'making nice' of the past 8 years, including removal of the settlements in 2005, and the continued supply of electicity and food and medicine from Israel to the strip, has only increased the number of rockets fired, and made Hamas think they were on the right track, all along.


I know the rockets have gone up, but do you have any citation for the last part? Because absent one I can think of several other explanations, including, "Israel refuses to go away, let's send more rockets".

So talking really isn't an option, which unfortunately leaves only one. And if you turn on the news, there it is.


And it isn't an option either. So there you go.

--

Fett42 wrote:If you're Israel I don't know how you can justify to your people NOT taking military action at this point when people are making this much of an attempt to kill them. As was pointed out, intent is what matters. Why wait until they get more effective?


"Waiting" isn't an option. Killing a few of them isn't an option either. There has to be a better way. Build higher walls, bring in the UN, make steel umbrellas, bribe them, put snipers on border-towers with orders to shoot anybody with a rocket, fly helicopters over Gaza and shoot anybody with a rocket, something besides A) doing nothing and B) wiping them off the map and C) rolling in and flexing your muscles because none of those three are workable options in the long run.

Also, the IDF reports that the rate of rocket attacks is now 50% of what it was before the beginning of Operation Cast Lead.

And sure, that works now. But until they leave, their soldiers will continue to die, and after they leave, the rockets will go way the fuck back up because every Johnny Palestine has seen the hated Jews bust into his home and beat up his uncle and shoot his friends and ruin his livelihood and now there's nothing better for him to do than pick up a rifle or a rocket and hurt them back.

It's the same damn thing that happened in Iraq. You can't fight terror like that, you have to get at the source, and the source of terror is unhappy people with nothing better to do than avenge their dead families. Making more dead families is never going to fix it. Never.
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Re: 200 killed, 700 injured in Israeli air attack on Gaza

Postby Nukewaste » Mon Jan 12, 2009 7:10 am UTC

Dream wrote:Casual racism aside, do you have cites ...?


What race is Islam?

And... Google.
I can come up with some later, but in the meantime, the internet is your oyster.
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Re: 200 killed, 700 injured in Israeli air attack on Gaza

Postby Izawwlgood » Mon Jan 12, 2009 7:30 am UTC

I think Nukewaste was referring to the James Wolfensohn donations of Israeli greenhouses to the Palestinians. A number were looted, apparently some were repaired and are currently operational.

http://www.iht.com/articles/2005/10/31/ ... nhouse.php

Malice wrote:Build higher walls, bring in the UN, make steel umbrellas, bribe them, put snipers on border-towers with orders to shoot anybody with a rocket, fly helicopters over Gaza and shoot anybody with a rocket, something besides A) doing nothing and B) wiping them off the map and C) rolling in and flexing your muscles because none of those three are workable options in the long run.


I don't mean for this to sound condescending, but, in regards to your alternatives:
Israel builds a fence/wall and people call it an inhumane separation. Israel brings in a neutral party to act as a buffer between them and the Lebanese in '05 and UNIFIL allows Hizbollah to rearm. Israel precision bombs Hamas targets and the world decries collateral damage and military damage alike.

Despite the fact that Israel is still letting aid in, Israel is still pumping electricity in, and Israel is still apparently notifying civilians of impending strikes.
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Re: 200 killed, 700 injured in Israeli air attack on Gaza

Postby Dream » Mon Jan 12, 2009 7:58 am UTC

Nukewaste wrote:
Dream wrote:Casual racism aside, do you have cites ...?


What race is Islam?

And... Google.
I can come up with some later, but in the meantime, the internet is your oyster.

I see. I will await your cites, because Izawlgood's article is quite different form your version of events. From it:
So far, the greenhouse effort has yielded mixed results: Palestinian companies have risen to the occasion, repairing greenhouses damaged by departing settlers and by Palestinian looters. Some greenhouses already have crops of mint, tomatoes and lettuce and are expected to yield harvests this month.

But problems with security, obstacles to the free passage of goods through Israel and the limited water supply - along with pervasive corruption in the Palestinian Authority - threaten the success of the greenhouse project and the entire Gaza economy.

The greenhouses offered a rare example of cooperation among Israelis and Palestinians during the pullout in August. James Wolfensohn, the former World Bank president who is serving as a Middle East envoy, hammered out the deal to buy the greenhouses. He even gave $500,000 of his own money to the group that spent $14 million for them.


So, they were purchased by philanthropists, not given by Israel. The damage was done by departing settlers and Palestinian looters as opposed to politically or religiously motivated wreckers. And they seem to have been working fine, except that the perishable goods grown in them could not be safely exported across the Israeli border. So your portrayal of Palestinians deliberately destroying Israel's generous donation is false on every count. Should we take such an immense pinch of salt with everything you tell us?

Izawwlgood wrote:UNIFIL allows Hizbollah to rearm. Israel precision bombs Hamas targets and the world decries collateral damage and military damage alike.

UNIFIL was toothless from the beginning, with rules of engagement and a mission statement that prevented them from policing anything at all. They were so helpless that Hezbollah used to pose with them alongside martyr photos and flags, and use the photos as propaganda. These well armed soldiers could do nothing but stand there and endure it. I basically take issue with the fact that they "allowed" anything. And while they were grinning and bearing outrageous provocation from both sides, several members of the force were killed and injured.

I don't know if you're referring to the current situation with the HAMAS line, but I'd say there's a bit more going on there than precision bombing.
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Re: 200 killed, 700 injured in Israeli air attack on Gaza

Postby Izawwlgood » Mon Jan 12, 2009 8:09 am UTC

Hold on, the donation of the greenhouses was from a pro-Israel American Jew, and they were purchased from Israeli settlers (purportedly at lower cost, but I dunno how much greenhouses go for) and donated to Palestinians. So to call then the looters non-affiliated or something, is a bit of a weird notion, they were Palestinians. I posted the least biased account I could find, but I've heard stories that A) Israel turned off the water in their retreat, which resulted in crop death, and B) that upon receiving ownership of the greenhouses, they were destroyed in days, mangled beyond repair. So, I think the article I posted is a reasonably fair account.

The goods inside the greenhouses were never intended for transport TO Israel, they were for either Palestinian use or export to any foreign market. Just because Israel refused to allow transport of them in, isn't a black mark for Israel. The accusation of Palestinians destroying Israels generous donation is, soooooort of on spot. It's more that some Palestinians destroyed a gift that was made possible by Israel, then some other Palestinians rose to the occasion and made use of the gift, and now I'm not sure whats going on with it.

As per UNIFIL: Then, um, why are you routinely mentioning UN regulations, or even the notion of 3rd party mediation pertaining to anything? If they can't act in accordance to what they were established to execute, what good are they?

Dream wrote:I don't know if you're referring to the current situation with the HAMAS line, but I'd say there's a bit more going on there than precision bombing.


Implying the Israel is carelessly attacking citizens? I disagree. Implying the highest integration of military technology to carefully execute nearly pinpoint accurate strikes, with a very regrettable, albeit small rate of failure and collateral damage? Yeah, I agree.
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Re: 200 killed, 700 injured in Israeli air attack on Gaza

Postby Dream » Mon Jan 12, 2009 8:38 am UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:So to call then the looters non-affiliated or something, is a bit of a weird notion, they were Palestinians.
Being of the same nationality is hardly affiliation. The original assertion was that there was something "Islamic" about the damage to the greenhouses, and unless there was a fatwa declared against them, and they were actually destroyed in obeyance of it, that is incorrect, and a racist assumption. From your article, that appears to be far from the case.
The goods inside the greenhouses were never intended for transport TO Israel, they were for either Palestinian use or export to any foreign market. Just because Israel refused to allow transport of them in, isn't a black mark for Israel.
It is when Israel is controlling the only road access to the foreign markets concerned. It also makes it seem as though your "pro Israel American Jew" was a bit out of step with Israel's wishes, if they wouldn't even allow the produce of those greenhouses to use their roads.
As per UNIFIL: Then, um, why are you routinely mentioning UN regulations, or even the notion of 3rd party mediation pertaining to anything? If they can't act in accordance to what they were established to execute, what good are they?
They were established to patrol and observe the border. Israel wouldn't hear of stationing them inside Israel, so they were entirely inside Lebanon. Thus they might seem to be there to control Hezbollah, but that was not really it. They were supposed to be patrolling the border and keeping both sides apart. They were not the police. So what they were established to execute was not the disarming or defeat of Hezbollah at all, and saying they "allowed" Hezbollah to rearm is far from accurate. You might say the UN in general allowed it, by not providing a force with the mission and capability to do it, but it is not UNIFIL's fault that they were not it.

Implying the highest integration of military technology to carefully execute nearly pinpoint accurate strikes, with a very regrettable, albeit small rate of failure and collateral damage? Yeah, I agree.

The last numbers I read, in the conservative Herald Sun, were 854 dead, of which 270 were children. Almost one in three are children. Your statement, though opinion and not fact, is patently untrue in the face of that ratio.
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Re: 200 killed, 700 injured in Israeli air attack on Gaza

Postby Nukewaste » Mon Jan 12, 2009 10:28 am UTC

Dream wrote:
Izawwlgood wrote:So to call then the looters non-affiliated or something, is a bit of a weird notion, they were Palestinians.
Being of the same nationality is hardly affiliation. The original assertion was that there was something "Islamic" about the damage to the greenhouses, and unless there was a fatwa declared against them, and they were actually destroyed in obeyance of it, that is incorrect, and a racist assumption. From your article, that appears to be far from the case.
The goods inside the greenhouses were never intended for transport TO Israel, they were for either Palestinian use or export to any foreign market. Just because Israel refused to allow transport of them in, isn't a black mark for Israel.
It is when Israel is controlling the only road access to the foreign markets concerned. It also makes it seem as though your "pro Israel American Jew" was a bit out of step with Israel's wishes, if they wouldn't even allow the produce of those greenhouses to use their roads.


As far as fatwa, no, perhaps not, but as you'll see here
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza#Demographics
and elsewhere, the population is overwhelmingly Muslim. So unless those sneaky christians were up to no good again...

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1131955261711&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9331863/

More links regarding the hothouses, and subsequent looting thereof.

The Settlers didn't have to leave them standing. They were compensated $14 million dollars to leave them behind, rather than taking them and setting them up at their new homes in Israel. The donors then turned over the hothouses to the PA, and the shenanigans started soon after.

As for being able to export the grown food across the border, well, you know why the border was repeatedly closed, right? Israel being mean! Yes. ...wait, no, something about rocket fire...

Hey, we're back on topic. Who knew?

Additionally, again, don't forget that Gaza shares a border with Egypt. So your talk of the only road to the rest of the world is unwarranted.
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Re: 200 killed, 700 injured in Israeli air attack on Gaza

Postby Nukewaste » Mon Jan 12, 2009 11:01 am UTC

Malice wrote:Metaphor failure. Cops have overwhelming force and the goodwill of the population. Imagine instead there's a ghetto area where cops fear to tread, and occasionally the people in the ghetto get mad and fire a few random bullets off into the surrounding neighborhood. And then one of the bullets almost hits somebody. Do the cops go in and try to find that person, knowing it's going to piss off the locals and potentially lead to a riot? Or do they let it fucking slide? International relations do not easily compare to police actions.

...

I know the rockets have gone up, but do you have any citation for the last part? Because absent one I can think of several other explanations, including, "Israel refuses to go away, let's send more rockets".

The metaphor isn't the important part, the reality of the situation is the important part. But that aside, your metaphor is flawed, because you imply that the near misses are accidental.

In the case of the Kassams and Grads fired from Gaza, it's not just gangbangers shooting into the air, and happening to hit a passerby, or nearly hit, as you say.

Each rocket is fired with the intent to kill someone on the other side of the fence.

You could alter your metaphor to say the gang members are specifically shooting into another neighborhood, hoping someone gets hit, but then why not just come up with the metaphor that they are Hamas terrorists, shooting rockets into Israel?

And where fiction meets reality, the point isn't what the police would do. Sure, they may fear to tread in some areas, but that does not mean that it suddenly becomes legal to do what you want.

Regardless of whether they are arrested or not, it is still attempted murder for them to fire their weapons at my neighborhood, just as it is for me to fire my gun at your head, and have the gun not work.

The point is, they are firing with the intent to kill.

As for the second part, regarding why they increased the firing, there surely are many reasons for doing so, as they were probably hoping to negotiate a better deal, or just, as you mention, hadn't finished the job yet.

But before Operation Cast Lead began, and in the early days, they were making lots of big talk.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1230733155241&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

They seemed quite confident that they had the Jews on the ropes.

Time will tell.
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Re: 200 killed, 700 injured in Israeli air attack on Gaza

Postby Malice » Mon Jan 12, 2009 11:17 am UTC

Nukewaste wrote:And where fiction meets reality, the point isn't what the police would do. Sure, they may fear to tread in some areas, but that does not mean that it suddenly becomes legal to do what you want.


No. But it does mean that sometimes the smartest option is to walk away.

Regardless of whether they are arrested or not, it is still attempted murder for them to fire their weapons at my neighborhood, just as it is for me to fire my gun at your head, and have the gun not work.

The point is, they are firing with the intent to kill.


Yeah, I get it. I'm not saying "aw, it was just an accident, no need to arrest them or anything". I'm talking about pragmatics, not right and wrong. Theoretically Hamas should be punished for what they've done, should be forced to stop sending rockets. In reality the smartest move in a bad situation is to avoid this, because in the long run it's going to cause more dead Israelis than it stops.
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Re: 200 killed, 700 injured in Israeli air attack on Gaza

Postby Nukewaste » Mon Jan 12, 2009 11:29 am UTC

Malice wrote:Yeah, I get it. I'm not saying "aw, it was just an accident, no need to arrest them or anything". I'm talking about pragmatics, not right and wrong. Theoretically Hamas should be punished for what they've done, should be forced to stop sending rockets. In reality the smartest move in a bad situation is to avoid this, because in the long run it's going to cause more dead Israelis than it stops.


If it were simply a matter of ignoring the rockets, because they don't do much damage, than yes, it's much better to just ignore it.

But that's like ignoring tiny mosquitos.

Who carry malaria.

The rockets aren't just targetting Israelis. They target the peace process.

They need to be stopped for any kind of lasting peace to be worked out. At least from Israel's standpoint.
The option of ignoring this does not exist, and for the chance to move towards a viable peace, sometime in the future, Israel seems to think that the lives lost in this operation are worth it.

Talking about those of their soldiers, at any rate. I don't think the number of dead Hamas gunmen is high on their list, at least in prevention thereof.

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Re: 200 killed, 700 injured in Israeli air attack on Gaza

Postby Fett42 » Mon Jan 12, 2009 11:48 am UTC

This is the solution you've offered:

"Waiting" isn't an option. Killing a few of them isn't an option either. There has to be a better way. Build higher walls, bring in the UN, make steel umbrellas, bribe them, put snipers on border-towers with orders to shoot anybody with a rocket, fly helicopters over Gaza and shoot anybody with a rocket, something besides A) doing nothing and B) wiping them off the map and C) rolling in and flexing your muscles because none of those three are workable options in the long run.


I'm sorry, but that's impractical on so many levels, most noticably from a military standpoint. first of all the range and arc of the rockets means that they could fire them well outside sniper range unless the snipers were in gaza, and 3,200+ rockets and mortars in a year is too much to stop by helicopter patrols... they would have to be blanketing Gaza every day and night, and asside from the logistical problem, a lot would get shot down eventually and the rockets would still be fired from civillian areas. A wall is pretty useless since you can fire rockets and mortars over a wall. Towers are just a target that would be fired at by rockets and mortars themselves. This option you give would inevitably escalate into exactly what is going on right now, which as I've been saying is really the only thing Israel can do given the exponentially increasing volume of fire directed at them over the last few years. If each "+" sign is 100 rockets/mortars:

2005: ++++
2006: +++++++++
2007: ++++++++++++++++
2008: ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Something on this magnitude has to be fought with military force.

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Re: 200 killed, 700 injured in Israeli air attack on Gaza

Postby Freelancer » Mon Jan 12, 2009 2:53 pm UTC

I've read some of this thread.

Complications aside, it's okay to kill children, women and other innocent civilians, so long as you get what you want?
I mean it would be one thing if Israel went in with ground troops, trying to root out Hammas, shooting only the people that targeted them.
But that's not really what is happening. All they're doing is flying over the area and dropping bombs. Literal carpet bombing.

But that's justified? Regardless of the children that die, regardless of the schools, homes, hospitals that are destroyed?

I guess you can look at this politically. But there's also a moral standpoint as well.
As for Israel's response being disproportionate, well there's no way anyone sane could argue that.

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Re: 200 killed, 700 injured in Israeli air attack on Gaza

Postby Fett42 » Mon Jan 12, 2009 3:10 pm UTC

You should read more than some of this thread because this whole topic has been fleshed out a lot more. So to nitpick:

All they're doing is flying over the area and dropping bombs. Literal carpet bombing.


That's just plain incorrect. Israel is using precision bombs for the most part, and is doing so in conjunction with ground troops. There are videos of Israeli planes diverting their missiles because Hamas militants have run into civilian crowds (http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1054539.html) as well as Hamas doing things like booby trapping schools are wiring them with explosives (http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1054533.html).

Given that Hamas (yes, Hamas) is doing all it can to MAXIMIZE civilian casualties as their primary deterrent to Israeli action, this really falls on their shoulders. As has been posed before, what do you propose Israel's response to exponentially increasing rocket and mortar attacks against their people (not their military bases mind you) should be? If all you can offer is a pure ground invasion without supporting artillery and airstrikes, then you just don't understand the military situation. Being able to bomb weapons stockpiles and militant sites is completely necessary because otherwise soldiers would have to be on th ground everywhere in all of Gaza to prevent rocket and mortar attacks from occuring. That would increase the casualties on both sides by vastly prolonging the fighting, and in addition to the IDF taking undoubtedly huge losses. It would still result in lots of civilian deaths, due to Hamas' tactics involving things like:

-Having all militants including policeman don civilian clothing
-Using crowded civilian areas as sites for launching mortars, rockets, and places of refuge
-Hiding much of their Gaza their leadership in a bunker under the main hospital
-Refusing to accept international forces to monitor a ceasefire
-Using U.N. ambulances (or ambulances made to look like U.N. ones) for transportation
-Stockpiling weapons and hiding tunnel entrances in schools, mosques, and houses
-Booby trapping residental houses and schools

I can name a long list of things Israel has done to try and keep civilian casualties down. Can you name one thing Hamas has done? I doubt it, because they see every civilian killed by the IDF as a boost to their cause, and thus they are the ones doing everything they can to maximize this occurence.

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Re: 200 killed, 700 injured in Israeli air attack on Gaza

Postby Diadem » Mon Jan 12, 2009 3:26 pm UTC

Freelancer wrote:I've read some of this thread.

Complications aside, it's okay to kill children, women and other innocent civilians, so long as you get what you want?
I mean it would be one thing if Israel went in with ground troops, trying to root out Hammas, shooting only the people that targeted them.

But this is exactly what Israel is doing. They first bombed Hamas targets for a few days, then sent in ground troops to try to root them out. They are specifically targetting Hamas, and they are not targetting civilians.

But that's not really what is happening. All they're doing is flying over the area and dropping bombs. Literal carpet bombing.

Yes, it is exactly what is happening. You are just plain misinformed. Yes they are bombing, but they are certainly not carpet bombing. They are targetting Hamas infrastructure. Yes, some bombs might miss their target and accidently hit civilians. But that is the tragedy of war. Unfortunately that can not be escaped.

But that's justified? Regardless of the children that die, regardless of the schools, homes, hospitals that are destroyed?

No, it wouldn't be. Some collatoral damage is justifiable in war, but both parties are always required to take care to minimize the number of civilian casualties. This does not mean 'not making any civilian casualties'. Sure that would be preferably, but we do not live in a perfect world. Wars are chaotic by nature, mistakes can not be avoided. And Gaza is amazingly overcrowded.

There are some incidents were you can clearly question if Israel is not being careless. But those are isolated cases. Overall the statistics show quite clearly that Isreal is trying its best to minimize civilian casualties.
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Re: 200 killed, 700 injured in Israeli air attack on Gaza

Postby Fett42 » Mon Jan 12, 2009 3:31 pm UTC

As far as proportionality, here is one legal expert's view:

The fact that hundreds of Palestinians have been killed during the operation in Gaza, compared to fewer than 20 Israelis, has nothing to do with the question of whether the operation is legal according to international law, says Prof. Yuval Shany, an expert in international law from Hebrew University's law faculty.

The relevant question, he said, is "whether the operation is proportionate to the provocation that led to it. When a single Qassam [rocket] is fired, the state cannot invade and conquer an entire country. There must be a measure of proportion between the action and the reaction. But here, we are not talking about a single Qassam, but about years of Qassams."

Israel, he continued, "is permitted to use force to the degree necessary to end the attacks against it. Therefore, it [the operation] is legal as long as it is meant to prevent the attacks."


(Full article at http://haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1054563.html)

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Re: 200 killed, 700 injured in Israeli air attack on Gaza

Postby Freelancer » Mon Jan 12, 2009 3:42 pm UTC

Fett42 wrote:You should read more than some of this thread because this whole topic has been fleshed out a lot more. So to nitpick:

All they're doing is flying over the area and dropping bombs. Literal carpet bombing.


That's just plain incorrect. Israel is using precision bombs for the most part, and is doing so in conjunction with ground troops. There are videos of Israeli planes diverting their missiles because Hamas militants have run into civilian crowds (http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1054539.html) as well as Hamas doing things like booby trapping schools are wiring them with explosives (http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1054533.html).

Given that Hamas (yes, Hamas) is doing all it can to MAXIMIZE civilian casualties as their primary deterrent to Israeli action, this really falls on their shoulders. As has been posed before, what do you propose Israel's response to exponentially increasing rocket and mortar attacks against their people (not their military bases mind you) should be? If all you can offer is a pure ground invasion without supporting artillery and airstrikes, then you just don't understand the military situation. Being able to bomb weapons stockpiles and militant sites is completely necessary because otherwise soldiers would have to be on th ground everywhere in all of Gaza to prevent rocket and mortar attacks from occuring. That would increase the casualties on both sides by vastly prolonging the fighting, and in addition to the IDF taking undoubtedly huge losses. It would still result in lots of civilian deaths, due to Hamas' tactics involving things like:

-Having all militants including policeman don civilian clothing
-Using crowded civilian areas as sites for launching mortars, rockets, and places of refuge
-Hiding much of their Gaza their leadership in a bunker under the main hospital
-Refusing to accept international forces to monitor a ceasefire
-Using U.N. ambulances (or ambulances made to look like U.N. ones) for transportation
-Stockpiling weapons and hiding tunnel entrances in schools, mosques, and houses
-Booby trapping residental houses and schools

I can name a long list of things Israel has done to try and keep civilian casualties down. Can you name one thing Hamas has done? I doubt it, because they see every civilian killed by the IDF as a boost to their cause, and thus they are the ones doing everything they can to maximize this occurence.


Is Haretz not a jewish news source? Hence a little biased for one side versus the other. I could use Al-Jazeera as a news source for a lot of things.

But disregarding all that...
If Hammas is truly doing all those things, it would only make sense for the civilians of Gaza to blame Hammas then, yet Hammas was democratically elected by the citizens there.
Yet they blame Israel.

Here's something that is neither from a Jewish news source, or an Arab one. It's CBC.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QJaPZLNLBu8

A lot of news and media are not allowed in refugee camps. Why are only Israeli sources allowed in some of these refugee camps?

I agree I don't know too much about the history and such, but I do know that the near 1000 dead in Gaza are due to bombs being dropped by Israel. I do know the conditions in which Palestinians live in Gaza, as well as in other refugee camps. And I do know that most citizens of Gaza simply want to live in peace. They too have children and families.
Sure, I guess you can blame Hammas in a round-about way and say "the blood is on your hands, even though we dropped the bombs". But I think that would be a lot like blaming America for 9/11.

There are even people in Israel who are against this massacre on Gaza.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hT3AJ_n8 ... re=related

They're considered traitors and such. Why do they protest against their own country when they know that Hammas attacks them? Is it because they know how disproportionate the response of Israel is? Or is it because they truly are traitors and spies?

Often in the case of war, when zealous people take sides with one against the other, they forget the humanity of their enemies. They have children, they have families. I'm not a fan of what Israel is doing, but I never forget the humanity that the citizens of Israel have. Just like no one else should forget the humanity that Palestinians have.
Israel supporters would call this video blatantly biased, so don't watch the whole thing. You can just start at 0:55 when the boy talks, and 1:40: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X0T3jMRNwV8
Is there anyone who would kill these children with their bare hands if they knew it would give Israel peace? If they would, then there is nothing to say. But if they wouldn't, then why would they drop bombs?

Sure, discuss politics. But don't forget the humanity in people.

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Re: 200 killed, 700 injured in Israeli air attack on Gaza

Postby Fett42 » Mon Jan 12, 2009 3:50 pm UTC

Every new source is biased one way or another, and Haaretz is considered a liberal Israeli newspaper. Criticize the facts or the analysis, not the source.

And though Hamas was democratically elected, they also kicked out killed or supressed the rival Fatah party shortly afterward.

Again, no one's saying what's happening isn't terrible. I'm asking how Israel should realistically respond to 3200+ rockets/mortars being fired at them in 2008.

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Re: 200 killed, 700 injured in Israeli air attack on Gaza

Postby Freelancer » Mon Jan 12, 2009 3:53 pm UTC

Diadem wrote:
Freelancer wrote:I've read some of this thread.

Complications aside, it's okay to kill children, women and other innocent civilians, so long as you get what you want?
I mean it would be one thing if Israel went in with ground troops, trying to root out Hammas, shooting only the people that targeted them.

But this is exactly what Israel is doing. They first bombed Hamas targets for a few days, then sent in ground troops to try to root them out. They are specifically targetting Hamas, and they are not targetting civilians.

But that's not really what is happening. All they're doing is flying over the area and dropping bombs. Literal carpet bombing.

Yes, it is exactly what is happening. You are just plain misinformed. Yes they are bombing, but they are certainly not carpet bombing. They are targetting Hamas infrastructure. Yes, some bombs might miss their target and accidently hit civilians. But that is the tragedy of war. Unfortunately that can not be escaped.

But that's justified? Regardless of the children that die, regardless of the schools, homes, hospitals that are destroyed?

No, it wouldn't be. Some collatoral damage is justifiable in war, but both parties are always required to take care to minimize the number of civilian casualties. This does not mean 'not making any civilian casualties'. Sure that would be preferably, but we do not live in a perfect world. Wars are chaotic by nature, mistakes can not be avoided. And Gaza is amazingly overcrowded.

There are some incidents were you can clearly question if Israel is not being careless. But those are isolated cases. Overall the statistics show quite clearly that Isreal is trying its best to minimize civilian casualties.


Accidents? How many schools, hospitals, water resources, etc?
But they're probably all isolated cases?

So if it fits a statistical model, it's a sad occurrence that can be waved away? Yet if the numbers are overwhelming, then it's an isolated incidence and can still be waved away.
Interesting.

Day after day there are stories in the news, "Five sisters killed", "Hospital destroyed, 1700 wounded", "87 children killed", etc etc. And I'm just looking at the first page after googling "Innocents killed in Gaza".
87 Children? That was as of January 5th. How many of those 87 children were Hammas terrorists? How many of the 900 killed were Hammas? Of the buildings bombed, how many were schools and hospitals?

No, I guess Israel isn't being careless after all. Just a few isolated incidents. But that's okay, cause it's worth it.

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Re: 200 killed, 700 injured in Israeli air attack on Gaza

Postby Freelancer » Mon Jan 12, 2009 3:57 pm UTC

Fett42 wrote:Every new source is biased one way or another, and Haaretz is considered a liberal Israeli newspaper. Criticize the facts or the analysis, not the source.

And though Hamas was democratically elected, they also kicked out killed or supressed the rival Fatah party shortly afterward.

Again, no one's saying what's happening isn't terrible. I'm asking how Israel should realistically respond to 3200+ rockets/mortars being fired at them in 2008.


The source and analysis are both important to me.

Send in ground troops, and stop dropping bombs. That would be a start.
If what is being done is terrible, then stop doing it. Why would you keep it up?
Israel knows that innocent people are being killed when they drop bombs, so why do they do it? Is that the price they are willing to pay?

Just look at those links. This is not a justified war. And it's not being conducted like one either.

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Re: 200 killed, 700 injured in Israeli air attack on Gaza

Postby segmentation fault » Mon Jan 12, 2009 4:07 pm UTC

http://www.ipsnews.net/news.asp?idnews=45350

an interesting read. it tells alot of what israel is doing to palestine, considering people seem to be ignoring that and only focusing on palestinian rocket attacks.
Last edited by segmentation fault on Mon Jan 12, 2009 4:18 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 200 killed, 700 injured in Israeli air attack on Gaza

Postby Izawwlgood » Mon Jan 12, 2009 4:17 pm UTC

The Hamas officials insisted that Israel not be allowed to close or reduce commercial traffic through border crossings for political purposes, as it had done during the six-month lull, according to the source.


Does 'political purpose' include 'ensuring suicide bombers not enter'? And AGAIN, Gaza shares a border with Egypt, tell me why it's Israels responsibility to let Palestinians move in and around it's borders when there was an open free election to bring to power an organization bent on destroying Israel?

Also,
segmentation fault wrote:it tells alot of what israel is doing to palestine, considering people seem to be ignoring that and only focusing on palestinian rocket attacks.


I think is a grossly unfair statement, looking over this and other Israel-Palestinian threads. In fact, it seems to be the opposite of what is true.
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Re: 200 killed, 700 injured in Israeli air attack on Gaza

Postby segmentation fault » Mon Jan 12, 2009 4:19 pm UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:Does 'political purpose' include 'ensuring suicide bombers not enter'?


hmm okay so lets cut off all food and supplies just incase someone wants to suicide bomb. give me a break. not every fucking palestinian is a suicide bomber. and did you not read the part about hamas trying to rally public support for the ceasefire? hamas was trying to stop these things from happening from within.

Izawwlgood wrote:I think is a grossly unfair statement, looking over this and other Israel-Palestinian threads. In fact, it seems to be the opposite of what is true.


well, some people.
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Re: 200 killed, 700 injured in Israeli air attack on Gaza

Postby Izawwlgood » Mon Jan 12, 2009 4:59 pm UTC

segmentation fault wrote:and did you not read the part about hamas trying to rally public support for the ceasefire?


Was it before or after the part where rocket fire increased over this time period?

segmentation fault wrote:hmm okay so lets cut off all food and supplies just incase someone wants to suicide bomb.


So you condemn Egypt for their blockading as well? No one from Gaza is attacking Egypt, yet they maintain a wall (an actual wall) blockading Gaza. Frankly, I think if Mexico started launching rockets at the US, we'd be entirely justified in A) cutting off all trade with them, B) blockading their trade, and C) precision bombing their military installations.
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Re: 200 killed, 700 injured in Israeli air attack on Gaza

Postby segmentation fault » Mon Jan 12, 2009 5:06 pm UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:Was it before or after the part where rocket fire increased over this time period?


Despite Israel's refusal to end the siege, Hamas brought rocket and mortar fire from Gaza to a virtual halt last summer and fall, as revealed by a report by the Intelligence and Terrorism Information Center (ITIC) in Tel Aviv last month. ITIC is part of the Israel Intelligence Heritage & Commemoration Centre (IICC), an NGO which is close to the Israeli intelligence community.


Izawwlgood wrote:So you condemn Egypt for their blockading as well? No one from Gaza is attacking Egypt, yet they maintain a wall (an actual wall) blockading Gaza.


1) the only reason that blockade exists is because of israel
2) "We have concluded an agreement between us and our brothers in Egypt to operate channels at the local level at the crossing and along the border," said Hamas leader Mahmoud Zahar.

Izawwlgood wrote:Frankly, I think if Mexico started launching rockets at the US, we'd be entirely justified in A) cutting off all trade with them, B) blockading their trade, and C) precision bombing their military installations.


frankly we arent subjugating the mexicans into oblivion...so if they did start firing rockets, sure.
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Re: 200 killed, 700 injured in Israeli air attack on Gaza

Postby Fett42 » Mon Jan 12, 2009 7:07 pm UTC

Send in ground troops, and stop dropping bombs. That would be a start.
If what is being done is terrible, then stop doing it. Why would you keep it up?
Israel knows that innocent people are being killed when they drop bombs, so why do they do it? Is that the price they are willing to pay?

Just look at those links. This is not a justified war. And it's not being conducted like one either.


Ground troops are sent in. Are I pointed out earlier, and you completely ignored, sending in just ground troops without air support would not only be a idiotic thing to do from a military perspective but would prolong and widen the conflict for both sides since it would require lengthly house-to-house searching and a full occupation of Gaza that could stretch for years if it is to succeed in stopping attacks.

When I say what's being done is terrible, I'm referring to the entire conflict. I would keep it up because if you don't, what can you as the Israeli government tell your people you are doing about it.

As for the war being justified, that has been rehashed extensively on this thread. If your only alternative is to send in ground troops by themselves and not use airstrikes, that shows a fundamental misunderstanding of the situation on the ground. Do you have any other suggestion other than that?

Some other ignored points:
-Hamas is the one doing everything it can to maximize civilian casualties while Israel is the one taking precations. Whether they are doing enough is something you can argue with, but you can't argue that Hamas is the one that actively wants and encourages civilian casualties.
-Hamas as an organization is not something that will suddenly cease its terror attacks against Israel if Israel pulls out and opens all the border crossings. That will just allow who knows how many militants to flood into Israel to conduct attacks in exchange for whatever their next set of demands is. Read Hamas' charter. Really read it. It is hateful and antisemitic, and does not allow for any sort of true and lasting peace with Israel. I don't know how to stress this enough. Hamas can never be a true partner for peace unless they do some severe restructuring of their basic charter. They are also the ones rejecting international observers to enforce a mutual ceasefire by the way.

I would also suggest that more people should legitimately study the history of the Arab-Israeli conflict from 1917 to present. It is the general topic of my thesis (the specifics being the Yom Kippur War), and is far more complicated than many people seem to think here who do nothing but read casualty figures in a conflict they don't really understand and then make their comments based more in philosophical idealism rather than realism.

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Re: 200 killed, 700 injured in Israeli air attack on Gaza

Postby Lumpy » Mon Jan 12, 2009 7:47 pm UTC

Conflicts in general tend to flare up when an independent radical take his own prerogative to launch a missile at Israel, killing dozens. Let's say that this individual is a member of an organization or government, but they're defying the organization's orders rather than obeying them. The organization denies responsibility without disclosing the membership of the rogue missile launcher; Israel says they have records showing the missile launcher is a member of the organization and demands extradition or else they'll consider it to have been an act of war.

In reality, a missile was launched from Lebanon into Israel and injured two at a nursing home. Israel responded with a "pinpoint strike" at the launchers. Hezbollah denied responsibility. The incident ended there.

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Re: 200 killed, 700 injured in Israeli air attack on Gaza

Postby Malice » Mon Jan 12, 2009 7:52 pm UTC

Nukewaste wrote:
Malice wrote:Yeah, I get it. I'm not saying "aw, it was just an accident, no need to arrest them or anything". I'm talking about pragmatics, not right and wrong. Theoretically Hamas should be punished for what they've done, should be forced to stop sending rockets. In reality the smartest move in a bad situation is to avoid this, because in the long run it's going to cause more dead Israelis than it stops.


If it were simply a matter of ignoring the rockets, because they don't do much damage, than yes, it's much better to just ignore it.

But that's like ignoring tiny mosquitos.

Who carry malaria.

The rockets aren't just targetting Israelis. They target the peace process.


You know what else impedes the peace process? War.

Fett42 wrote:This is the solution you've offered:

"Waiting" isn't an option. Killing a few of them isn't an option either. There has to be a better way. Build higher walls, bring in the UN, make steel umbrellas, bribe them, put snipers on border-towers with orders to shoot anybody with a rocket, fly helicopters over Gaza and shoot anybody with a rocket, something besides A) doing nothing and B) wiping them off the map and C) rolling in and flexing your muscles because none of those three are workable options in the long run.


I'm sorry, but that's impractical on so many levels, most noticably from a military standpoint. first of all the range and arc of the rockets means that they could fire them well outside sniper range unless the snipers were in gaza, and 3,200+ rockets and mortars in a year is too much to stop by helicopter patrols... they would have to be blanketing Gaza every day and night, and asside from the logistical problem, a lot would get shot down eventually and the rockets would still be fired from civillian areas. A wall is pretty useless since you can fire rockets and mortars over a wall. Towers are just a target that would be fired at by rockets and mortars themselves. This option you give would inevitably escalate into exactly what is going on right now, which as I've been saying is really the only thing Israel can do given the exponentially increasing volume of fire directed at them over the last few years. If each "+" sign is 100 rockets/mortars:

2005: ++++
2006: +++++++++
2007: ++++++++++++++++
2008: ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Something on this magnitude has to be fought with military force.


Military force will do nothing but increase the number of rockets in the long run. I understand that waiting isn't an option. Maybe I don't have a solution that works (although nobody seems to comment on my "steel umbrellas" idea), but all I'm saying is that the current military operation is also a bad idea and will also not solve this problem. And while we're waiting for it to not solve this problem, hundreds of innocent people are dying. I don't know what I would have Israel do, but not this.
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Re: 200 killed, 700 injured in Israeli air attack on Gaza

Postby Izawwlgood » Mon Jan 12, 2009 8:09 pm UTC

I think your steel umbrella idea is akin to the fence/wall that Israel has built, and the the bunkers that people are forced to flee to quite periodically (some accounts, up to 30x a day).

Sorry, was it sarcastic?

I like the idea of Israel dropping tons and tons of supplies into Gaza, sort of 'bribing' the people to choose an alliance with Israel over Hamas, but I like that idea in the same way that I like the notion of the worlds governments banding together to build a colony on Mars.
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Re: 200 killed, 700 injured in Israeli air attack on Gaza

Postby Malice » Mon Jan 12, 2009 8:34 pm UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:I think your steel umbrella idea is akin to the fence/wall that Israel has built, and the the bunkers that people are forced to flee to quite periodically (some accounts, up to 30x a day).

Sorry, was it sarcastic?


Just a joke.

I like the idea of Israel dropping tons and tons of supplies into Gaza, sort of 'bribing' the people to choose an alliance with Israel over Hamas, but I like that idea in the same way that I like the notion of the worlds governments banding together to build a colony on Mars.


Oh, well, if we're talking about options likely to happen, we're left with nothing but the one where cyclical sectarian violence continues to dominate the region for another few hundred years.
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Re: 200 killed, 700 injured in Israeli air attack on Gaza

Postby Izawwlgood » Mon Jan 12, 2009 8:37 pm UTC

Malice wrote:Oh, well, if we're talking about options likely to happen, we're left with nothing but the one where cyclical sectarian violence continues to dominate the region for another few hundred years.


I think Malice has just summed every Middle-East Thread that will ever crop up.
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Re: 200 killed, 700 injured in Israeli air attack on Gaza

Postby dic_penderyn » Mon Jan 12, 2009 8:43 pm UTC

The current Gaza crisis is just ridiculous in my opinion.
All I keep seeing on TV is innocents getting killed.

I wish I could take the Hamas leaders and the Israeli government and remove them completely from the area.

They have both failed their people. While these two groups wage war on each other the populace (on both sides) lose.

I'm not in a position to point fingers or pick sides, my understanding of the politics in the area only goes back a few years, but I get the distinct feeling that it wouldn't matter if I studied it for years, its so bloody convoluted and insane!

I honestly dont know what to suggest to make this think go away, short of pulling the leaders from both sides up against a way and having them shot.

Its a mess, and unfortunately I see no solution, short or long term.

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Re: 200 killed, 700 injured in Israeli air attack on Gaza

Postby yoni45 » Mon Jan 12, 2009 9:15 pm UTC

Malice wrote:Military force will do nothing but increase the number of rockets in the long run. I understand that waiting isn't an option.


According to what? Like, I get the idea that violence won't solve everything, but why do people assume from this that a military option will never solve *anything*?

Not only that, but military options do work, at times. Even against terrorism. Operation Defensive Shield essentially destroyed the 2nd intifada. And suicide bombings haven't increased exponentially. Neither have "other" forms of terrorism from the West Bank. In fact, negotiation prospects with the West Bank probably haven't been better.
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Re: 200 killed, 700 injured in Israeli air attack on Gaza

Postby Fett42 » Mon Jan 12, 2009 10:48 pm UTC

Military force will do nothing but increase the number of rockets in the long run. I understand that waiting isn't an option. Maybe I don't have a solution that works (although nobody seems to comment on my "steel umbrellas" idea), but all I'm saying is that the current military operation is also a bad idea and will also not solve this problem. And while we're waiting for it to not solve this problem, hundreds of innocent people are dying. I don't know what I would have Israel do, but not this.


Well the number of rockets had been doubling each year since 2005 so I'd be interested to see if this will actually increase that rate--I doubt it. There's actually pretty good reason to think that this operation will stop the rocket attacks in the long run since I don't see a way that this can now end without Hamas either agreeing to stop firing rockets or, as has been suggested is happening already, running out of ammo and refusing to expose themselves to the Israel response:

A senior Israeli military commander involved in Operation Cast Lead said on Saturday that Hamas militants are suffering from exhaustion and are deserting battle.

The commander told reporters that Amir Mansi, the commander of Hamas' rocket-launching program in the Gaza City area who was killed by the Israel Defense Forces on Saturday, fired mortars himself after junior Hamas operatives refused to go outside, fearing an Israeli strike.

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Re: 200 killed, 700 injured in Israeli air attack on Gaza

Postby Indon » Mon Jan 12, 2009 11:00 pm UTC

My review of the thread didn't seem to directly address the issue of the US's Security Council veto in this conflict, so...

Malice wrote:Military force will do nothing but increase the number of rockets in the long run.

I disagree.

I think continued Israeli military action is a bad idea, but I think a United Nations force (or five) in the area would help.

Unfortunately, in order for that to happen, the United States needs to stop neutering the UN's influence in the situation with their Security Council veto, and that won't ever happen.

The UN needs to be able to enter the situation and completely take over Israel, removing the teeth of both sides of the conflict. Disarm only Israel and rocket attacks continue. Disarm only the Palestinians and Israelis move in and take all the land. The world can only stop the conflict by rendering both parties to it entirely impotent.

The only alternative, that I can see, is to leave Israel and the Palestinians to their own devices, which will only end the conflict when one of the groups outright exterminates the other (in all likelyhood, the Israelis exterminating the Palestinians).

(Well, okay, there's a second alternative, but that involves rendering the entirety of the region dead, irradiated, and covered in glass for the next few hundred years, and knowing Israel would probably lead to the extermination of the human race along the way)
So, I like talking. So if you want to talk about something with me, feel free to send me a PM.

My blog, now rarely updated.

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