1200 killed, many more injured in Israeli attacks in Gaza

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Re: 200 killed, 700 injured in Israeli air attack on Gaza

Postby segmentation fault » Fri Jan 09, 2009 4:06 pm UTC

lesliesage wrote:These are estimates, but I can't help but notice that this is the exact same ratio of retribution. Am I fucked up to think about these numbers at a time like this?


no, youre not fucked up. its the same process of retaliation, and as we can see, neither worked very well.
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Re: 200 killed, 700 injured in Israeli air attack on Gaza

Postby Fett42 » Fri Jan 09, 2009 7:17 pm UTC

As for the U.N. trucks being hit by Israel, Hamas has on occasion used U.N. ambulances for transportation. Watch this video, especially the last 20 or so seconds:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yb-93Rud ... re=related

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Re: 200 killed, 700 injured in Israeli air attack on Gaza

Postby segmentation fault » Fri Jan 09, 2009 8:12 pm UTC

so its okay to bomb all the UN ambulances then?
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Re: 200 killed, 700 injured in Israeli air attack on Gaza

Postby yoni45 » Fri Jan 09, 2009 8:33 pm UTC

segmentation fault wrote:so its okay to bomb all the UN ambulances then?


Because that's clearly the conclusion to be drawn from the previous comment.

dic_penderyn wrote:I am certainly no expert, but if the equipment used in a civilian area is not accurate enough to do the job, then I would not advocate its use.


The point isn't that the equipment isn't accurate enough, it's that equipment that is otherwise accurate enough can have flaws.
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Re: 200 killed, 700 injured in Israeli air attack on Gaza

Postby yoni45 » Fri Jan 09, 2009 8:53 pm UTC

Dream wrote:So, it could actually have been human error, and not mechanical at all.


Except the fact that an Army official considers a mechanical error a viable possibility tends to mean that it is indeed a viable possibility, regardless of what actually happened.

Dream wrote:...it might help if you find a cite of a time that a tank cannon...


http://lmtonline.com/news/archive/051001/pagea18.pdf

"The U.S. Army admitted Wednesday that it had misfired two training rounds, which hit and slightly damaged the roof of a southern German elementary school where children were playing in the yard..."

Dream wrote:So, in light of the IDF having fired on non-combatants before...


Except you still haven't proven deliberate firing on non-combatants, either here, nor prior.

Dream wrote:Not at all. I said that any human error should have been caught by the fact that the humans concerned had to verify and identify their target before they fired. I find it vanishingly unlikely that they would be unable to identify a UN aid convoy, so I dispute that the human error explanation makes any sense. I do not say that only misidentification is possible, I say that it is necessary, unless you believe that the gun went off half cocked or the shell mysteriously spun away from its intended target and just happened to repeat a war crime that has been perpetrated by Israel in the past.

The miscommunication bit you are aware now was sarcastic, but that its point was clear. It is not my fault that you couldn't, or refused to follow the argument. It still did not take your position, distort it, attribute the distortion to you and claim triumph in attacking it.


That's all already been addressed. Neither human error nor miscommunication are phenomena that are limited to the straw-men you chose to set up. There have been numerous posts since that have highlighted how even a visual ID can go awry, while miscommunication is one you've chosen to simply ignore in lieu of a 'sarcastic' straw-man.
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Re: 200 killed, 700 injured in Israeli air attack on Gaza

Postby aleflamedyud » Fri Jan 09, 2009 9:04 pm UTC

Lumpy wrote:I think that's because of China's seat on the UN Security Council, Saudi Arabia's relationship with the United States, and that China and Russia are both supporters of Mugabe. I think Israel is closer to the U.S. than it is to Russia, and thus third parties like Hugo Chavez become biased toward Palestinians as part of an anti-America imperialism tirade, so Israel becomes some kind of bizarre proxy for left over Cold War feelings for them?

Many months ago I made a long, detailed post, viewed as quite informative by many, that essentially answered this question with a "Yes". Most third-parties to the conflict derive their opinions on it from ideological roots tracing back to the Leftist-Rightist differences of the Cold War. It's... here, second post down.

And I would like to note that the only answer to my peace proposal was a "you're not giving enough" post by Dream (not blaming you, Dream, crediting you here), followed by nothing. Apparently people would rather argue over how many have died then figure out how to end it.
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Re: 200 killed, 700 injured in Israeli air attack on Gaza

Postby ddxxdd » Fri Jan 09, 2009 9:23 pm UTC

aleflamedyud wrote:And I would like to note that the only answer to my peace proposal was a "you're not giving enough" post by Dream (not blaming you, Dream, crediting you here), followed by nothing. Apparently people would rather argue over how many have died then figure out how to end it.


Perhaps the only way to end the violence is with more violence. Apparently Hamas didn't learn from Israel's entanglement with Lebanon, so maybe Israel needs to kill a few thousand more militants before they learn their lesson. And the citizens of Gaza need to see a little bit more collateral damage to teach them not to let hostile militants attack Israel from their own territory.
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Re: 200 killed, 700 injured in Israeli air attack on Gaza

Postby 3.14159265... » Fri Jan 09, 2009 9:52 pm UTC

And the citizens of Gaza need to see a little bit more collateral damage to teach them not to let hostile militants attack Israel from their own territory.
This is the definition of terrorism.

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Re: 200 killed, 700 injured in Israeli air attack on Gaza

Postby aleflamedyud » Fri Jan 09, 2009 9:57 pm UTC

ddxxdd wrote:
aleflamedyud wrote:And I would like to note that the only answer to my peace proposal was a "you're not giving enough" post by Dream (not blaming you, Dream, crediting you here), followed by nothing. Apparently people would rather argue over how many have died then figure out how to end it.


Perhaps the only way to end the violence is with more violence. Apparently Hamas didn't learn from Israel's entanglement with Lebanon, so maybe Israel needs to kill a few thousand more militants before they learn their lesson. And the citizens of Gaza need to see a little bit more collateral damage to teach them not to let hostile militants attack Israel from their own territory.

You need both carrot and stick.
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Re: 200 killed, 700 injured in Israeli air attack on Gaza

Postby Mabus_Zero » Fri Jan 09, 2009 10:00 pm UTC

ddxxdd wrote:Perhaps the only way to end the violence is with more violence. Apparently Hamas didn't learn from Israel's entanglement with Lebanon, so maybe Israel needs to kill a few thousand more militants before they learn their lesson. And the citizens of Gaza need to see a little bit more collateral damage to teach them not to let hostile militants attack Israel from their own territory.


But as has been said by myself and others, and probably repeatedly, is that there are not that many hardcore militants. There never were, never will be. What has happened, and will continue to happen, is that a much larger swathe of civilians will be killed by the incoming artillery then anyone that could be considered a guerrilla, and HAMAS will derive popular support from this. The psychological cycle, therefore, will continue to rotate in a fashion which has the Palestinians either supporting HAMAS or those that do speak out being targeted and harassed, if not outright killed, and the Israeli Central Government apparatus in charge of the military will continue to use this as an excuse to retaliate in the short term, and delay and inexplicably end talks in the long term.

A real solution to the Palestinian question will lie along the lines of something more clever then overt violence. A quandary, for something as ham-fisted as a mildly fascist state.
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Re: 200 killed, 700 injured in Israeli air attack on Gaza

Postby Fett42 » Fri Jan 09, 2009 10:32 pm UTC

so its okay to bomb all the UN ambulances then?


That obviously wasn't the implication, and isn't Israeli policy. It just illustrates how culpable Hamas is in deliberately making it difficult to avoid civilian casualties.

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Re: 200 killed, 700 injured in Israeli air attack on Gaza

Postby BlackSails » Sat Jan 10, 2009 12:01 am UTC

Mabus_Zero wrote:. A quandary, for something as ham-fisted as a mildly fascist state.

:?: :?: :?: :?:

How is Israel fascist?

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Re: 200 killed, 700 injured in Israeli air attack on Gaza

Postby Nukewaste » Sat Jan 10, 2009 12:08 am UTC

Mabus_Zero wrote:A real solution to the Palestinian question will lie along the lines of something more clever then overt violence. A quandary, for something as ham-fisted as a mildly fascist state.


Hamas Charter wrote:"There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors."


We're all clear on what jihad means, yes? (And Hamas, if it hasn't been mentioned before, is an acronym for Islamic Resistance Movement)

This is, and always has been the view of Hamas.

The only way to get to something more clever than overt violence is to liberate the people of gaza from Hamas (preferrably whilst shouting "Hey, fuck democracy after all!")

Read the whole thing (unsure if it's been posted before) here http://www.mideastweb.org/hamas.htm
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Re: 200 killed, 700 injured in Israeli air attack on Gaza

Postby Dream » Sat Jan 10, 2009 12:32 am UTC

Fett42 wrote:
so its okay to bomb all the UN ambulances then?


That obviously wasn't the implication, and isn't Israeli policy. It just illustrates how culpable Hamas is in deliberately making it difficult to avoid civilian casualties.

Of course it isn't policy. It would be politically suicidal to have such a policy. However, the fact that HAMAS may have done this (I've never, ever heard of it.) doesn't exonerate any incident in particular. For that, the IDF would have to produce evidence that that ambulance in particular was thought reasonably to be a terrorist disguise at that time. The thing about ambulances is, they tend to appear very suddenly without warning in dangerous areas. You can't just destroy an ambulance just because you don't know why it is there, or what it is doing. Especially not when your justification is that some other ambulance some other time had some terrorists in it.
Fett42 wrote:So clearly when Israel killed three of its own soldiers with freindly tank fire they intended to do so.

No, they intended to fire on that particular house, which the tank crew were told contained HAMAS personnel. The house, we can assume, did not resemble a UN food aid convoy, nor did it have a big "UN" painted on the side.
aleflamedyud wrote:And I would like to note that the only answer to my peace proposal was a "you're not giving enough" post by Dream (not blaming you, Dream, crediting you here)
Thank you, though I should still point out that my plan was not for peace in the region, but was specifically intended to defeat HAMAS, from the point of view that further violence will only make them stronger, if not now, then in the future.
yoni45 wrote:"The U.S. Army admitted Wednesday that it had misfired two training rounds, which hit and slightly damaged the roof of a southern German elementary school where children were playing in the yard..."
From the article: "This is a really rare incident." and "It's the first time I know of that there has been a misfire by the US Army." So it is still far more likely to have been properly directed fire. You're clinging to this like people who want to believe they got an STD form a toilet seat. Please come up with something more compelling, or I'm done with this.
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Re: 200 killed, 700 injured in Israeli air attack on Gaza

Postby yoni45 » Sat Jan 10, 2009 3:30 am UTC

Dream wrote:...So it is still far more likely to have been properly directed fire...


Odd, I don't remember the Germans ever claiming it was a deliberate strike against a school. You might want to let them know that considering the odds, the Americans did it intentionally.
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Re: 200 killed, 700 injured in Israeli air attack on Gaza

Postby Dream » Sat Jan 10, 2009 3:53 am UTC

yoni45 wrote:
Dream wrote:...So it is still far more likely to have been properly directed fire...


Odd, I don't remember the Germans ever claiming it was a deliberate strike against a school. You might want to let them know that considering the odds, the Americans did it intentionally.

The "it" was referring to the UN truck incident. That wasn't clear, but you're still being obtuse. My point was that your article spells out that these things are exceedingly rare, and without some particular reason to believe it is the case, pleading it is, as I said, like claiming your STD came from a toilet seat: Within the bounds of possibility, but has nothing to do with the overwhelmingly more likely scenario.
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Re: 200 killed, 700 injured in Israeli air attack on Gaza

Postby yoni45 » Sat Jan 10, 2009 4:32 am UTC

Dream wrote:...article spells out that these things are exceedingly rare...


It also spells out it occurs. You also *haven't* shown that such an occurrence is outside the realm of statistical possibility for the IDF.

It's not my job to prove that it was a misfired shell. It's your job to prove that it wasn't, when you claim it was deliberate.
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Re: 200 killed, 700 injured in Israeli air attack on Gaza

Postby Dream » Sat Jan 10, 2009 4:44 am UTC

yoni45 wrote:It also spells out it occurs. You also *haven't* shown that such an occurrence is outside the realm of statistical possibility for the IDF.

Ok. You go on believing that. I'll start believing that you are in the pay of a Jewish lobby group that trawls the internet for anti-Israel sentiment and attempts to refute it. Since that is statistically possible, however unlikely, and it fits perfectly with what I'd really, really like to believe about you, I can just believe it and demand that you prove otherwise. Possibility be damned, because I'm right.
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Re: 200 killed, 700 injured in Israeli air attack on Gaza

Postby Malice » Sat Jan 10, 2009 5:11 am UTC

Neither of you can prove anything either way. All you can do is argue which possibility is more likely based on whether or not you assume Israel has good intentions or not. Can we just abort this and move on to a more productive discussion?
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Re: 200 killed, 700 injured in Israeli air attack on Gaza

Postby aleflamedyud » Sat Jan 10, 2009 5:27 am UTC

Malice wrote:Neither of you can prove anything either way. All you can do is argue which possibility is more likely based on whether or not you assume Israel has good intentions or not. Can we just abort this and move on to a more productive discussion?

You poor bastard, do you really think such an event at all likely to happen? כשמשיח יבוא.
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Re: 200 killed, 700 injured in Israeli air attack on Gaza

Postby Dream » Sat Jan 10, 2009 6:09 am UTC

aleflamedyud wrote:
Malice wrote:Neither of you can prove anything either way. All you can do is argue which possibility is more likely based on whether or not you assume Israel has good intentions or not. Can we just abort this and move on to a more productive discussion?

You poor bastard, do you really think such an event at all likely to happen? כשמשיח יבוא.

Yes, actually. If I have to foe Yoni to do it, I'm ignoring him from now on. I've been finding it painfully ironic that I brought up the incident in a post where I told people to stop harping on about Ahmadinejad.
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Re: 200 killed, 700 injured in Israeli air attack on Gaza

Postby yoni45 » Sat Jan 10, 2009 9:16 am UTC

Dream wrote:I'll start believing that you are in the pay of a Jewish lobby group that trawls the internet for anti-Israel sentiment and attempts to refute it...


Hardly surprising. The evidence for that is about on par as it is for your claim on the deliberation of the IDF's actions.

Dream wrote:Since that is statistically possible, however unlikely, and it fits perfectly with what I'd really, really like to believe about you, I can just believe it and demand that you prove otherwise. Possibility be damned, because I'm right.


Yet another straw-man, smooth. I never claimed the IDF's actions weren't deliberate. You're the one who claimed they were. It's thus your burden to prove it.

Malice wrote:Neither of you can prove anything either way.


That's my point.
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Re: 200 killed, 700 injured in Israeli air attack on Gaza

Postby Lumpy » Sun Jan 11, 2009 7:20 pm UTC

U.S. Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid said on Meet the Press that if missiles were coming out of Canada like they were from Hamas, "of course" the United States should invade.

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Re: 200 killed, 700 injured in Israeli air attack on Gaza

Postby TheStranger » Sun Jan 11, 2009 8:24 pm UTC

Lumpy wrote:U.S. Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid said on Meet the Press that if missiles were coming out of Canada like they were from Hamas, "of course" the United States should invade.


If Canada did nothing to stop the attacks, if the ruling party of Canada made the destruction of the USA one of it's central pillars? Wouldn't you then say that it was in the best interests of the US to respond and stop the attacks?
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Re: 200 killed, 700 injured in Israeli air attack on Gaza

Postby Malice » Sun Jan 11, 2009 8:56 pm UTC

Only if that would actually stop the attacks. What Israel is (and has been) doing to Gaza is only pissing the Palestinians off further. Anything short of extermination is just going to cause more rocket attacks, so unless they're prepared to do that, they should back the fuck off. They've already killed, what, 100 times more than the rockets did to them? Enough is enough.
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Re: 200 killed, 700 injured in Israeli air attack on Gaza

Postby Fett42 » Sun Jan 11, 2009 9:07 pm UTC

Comparing casualties matters if you're talking about punishment, or eye-for-an-eye. That's not what's going on here. Israel is trying to change the situation in the south. And as much as their tactics can be criticized, there is a chance that might just happen. Certainly the international community is now considering having international observers to enforce the terms of a ceasefire now (something Hamas opposes) while they never cared enough to act before.

Politically there's no way Israel couldn't do something at this point. Look at a chart of rocket/mortar attacks form Gaza into Israel over the last 8 years. They've gone up exponentially since Hamas took over, and has been discussed extensively, looking at Hamas' statements and charter its pretty clear they are not a valid partner for any sort of lasting peace unlike Fatah.

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Re: 200 killed, 700 injured in Israeli air attack on Gaza

Postby Izawwlgood » Sun Jan 11, 2009 9:15 pm UTC

Malice wrote:Only if that would actually stop the attacks. What Israel is (and has been) doing to Gaza is only pissing the Palestinians off further. Anything short of extermination is just going to cause more rocket attacks, so unless they're prepared to do that, they should back the fuck off. They've already killed, what, 100 times more than the rockets did to them? Enough is enough.


I don't follow your argument here. Hamas kills some people and launches rockets at Israel, so Israel should just go in and get some retribution and back off? The IDF's invasion of Gaza is an effort to undermine and destabilize Hamas. I don't think they should stop until Hamas is forced out or publicly relinquishes it's motivations. The best solution in my mind would entail the Palestinians kicking Hamas out for the realization that perpetually attacking their neighbor is a bad path, but hey.
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Re: 200 killed, 700 injured in Israeli air attack on Gaza

Postby 3.14159265... » Sun Jan 11, 2009 9:46 pm UTC

TheStranger wrote:
Lumpy wrote:U.S. Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid said on Meet the Press that if missiles were coming out of Canada like they were from Hamas, "of course" the United States should invade.


I just wrote a page explaining how absurd it is to compare the living conditions Canadians with Palestinians. Also to compare the relationships between the two countries (Canada and the US) as to that of the other two countries (Israel and Palestine).

Israel still doesn't allow reporters into Gaza, they are pulling some foul shit.

It is their last attempt at seeming powerful in the face of the utter failure of American foreign policy which they have played such a large role in and depend so much upon.
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Re: 200 killed, 700 injured in Israeli air attack on Gaza

Postby Fett42 » Sun Jan 11, 2009 9:57 pm UTC

Israel still doesn't allow reporters into Gaza, they are pulling some foul shit.


As I said before in the other thread, there are good military reasons for not allowing reporters in, as explained by the IDF. One of the goals of this operation is to contantly keep Hamas' communications severed and leave them having no idea what's going on in different places around Gaza. Letting a bunch of reporters to give news reports will give lots of information, intended or not, to Hamas about exactly what operations are going on where.

Safety is also a legitimate issue. Having reporters in a war is one thing, but having them running around in heavy urban combat in another--people were 't accusing the U.S. of doing 'foul shit' because they didn't allow a bunch of international reporters with them inside the heavy urban battle for Fallujah in Iraq. Furthermore, reporters, by their nature, will seek out where the heaviest action is to get the juciest headlines, which creates even more of a problem for the IDF having to worry about avoiding inadvertantly killing them. It may be the reporters' decision on their own safety, but it has a lot of implications for the success of the IDF operation as well.

(As a side note, prior to the war Hamas only let reporters in that had a certain permit from them).

I know several IDF soldiers personally, two of whom are 21 years old and in Gaza right now. Before they went in, they told me the thing that makes them more angry than anything is this image that people try to paint of the IDF trying or wanting to kill civillians. They said they receive extensive briefings and training on minimizing civillian casualties and that they sacrifice a lot of military advantages and take more risk to attempt do so. They also told me that their greatest fear is killing someone who is innocent. I'll say abou the 30th time in these threads, criticize the tactics of the IDF all you want, but its absolutely absurd to say that its their goal to kill civilians. Can anyone name anything substantial Hamas has done to try and minimuze civilian deaths in this conflict? I can't, and from Hamas' leaderships' perspective civilian deaths are a good thing because the the greater proportion of civilian deaths, the more criticism Israel receives.

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Re: 200 killed, 700 injured in Israeli air attack on Gaza

Postby 3.14159265... » Sun Jan 11, 2009 10:14 pm UTC

You do not have to be a psychopath in war to kill civilians.

Note I didn't say the soldier were pulling foul shit, rather that Israel was.

Tell your friends in the IDF, a guy who likes xkcd comics, does math for fun, whose favorite drink is Mike's Hard Lemonade, and is real shy when it comes to girls thinks what their country is doing is wrong.
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Re: 200 killed, 700 injured in Israeli air attack on Gaza

Postby Malice » Sun Jan 11, 2009 10:28 pm UTC

Fett42 wrote:Comparing casualties matters if you're talking about punishment, or eye-for-an-eye. That's not what's going on here. Israel is trying to change the situation in the south. And as much as their tactics can be criticized, there is a chance that might just happen. Certainly the international community is now considering having international observers to enforce the terms of a ceasefire now (something Hamas opposes) while they never cared enough to act before.

Politically there's no way Israel couldn't do something at this point. Look at a chart of rocket/mortar attacks form Gaza into Israel over the last 8 years. They've gone up exponentially since Hamas took over, and has been discussed extensively, looking at Hamas' statements and charter its pretty clear they are not a valid partner for any sort of lasting peace unlike Fatah.


Unfortunately, Hamas is pretty good for the people in Gaza, unlike Fatah. There are two main groups of people who voted for Hamas:
1. People who hate Israel.
2. People who like running water (where running water stands for all the infrastructure and community help Hamas has given)

Bombing Gaza to hell is eventually going to get group 2 to conclude that the benefits of Hamas aren't worth the Israeli consequences; but it's also going to turn some of those people (and some of the people who didn't vote for Hamas) into being part of group 1. Since it's group 1 that fires the damn rockets, I would think the smart move would be to minimize that group.

There are two ways to minimize that group:
A: Kill them all. Israel seems reluctant to do this, judging by the fact that there still is a Gaza and not a reddish sandy smear.
B: Make nice. Use humanitarian aid to win group 2's support, and, given enough time, group 1 will shrink and group 2 will vote in Fatah or somebody else who will be more conducive to peace.

What they're doing right now isn't likely to help. If they want to look good for the international community, nothing looks better than helping your enemy and bearing a few civilian casualties every once in a while.
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Re: 200 killed, 700 injured in Israeli air attack on Gaza

Postby Izawwlgood » Sun Jan 11, 2009 10:53 pm UTC

Israel is currently allowing humanitarian aid through.
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Re: 200 killed, 700 injured in Israeli air attack on Gaza

Postby Fett42 » Sun Jan 11, 2009 10:54 pm UTC

If Israel does as you suggest then Hamas claims it was only due to their actions and their strategy of shooting indiscriminate rockets and mortars at civilian populations is justified, and uses said tactic to ask for even more. Looking at Hamas' charter and statements they won't stop even if/when Israel brings in massive humanitarian aid and opens all crossings to Gaza. What they will do it send who knows how many militants and suicide borders to fan out into Israel for attacks that are much more effective and hard to contain than their rockets and mortars. This would likely be the basis for new demands, and so on and so forth. Hamas has never indicated that it is interested in a true lasting peace with Israel and has made many statements to the contrary, statements against both the Jews in general* and the destruction of Israel in favor of a fundamentalist Islamic regime. Not to mention the fact that Hamas isn't interested in being voted out even if the people wanted to, as evidenced by their treatment of Fatah officials and supporters since they have taken over Gaza.

*obviously being anti-Israel isn't necessarily the same as being antisemitic but there's no doubt Hamas is an antisemitic organization.

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Re: 200 killed, 700 injured in Israeli air attack on Gaza

Postby aleflamedyud » Sun Jan 11, 2009 11:40 pm UTC

Malice wrote:
Fett42 wrote:Comparing casualties matters if you're talking about punishment, or eye-for-an-eye. That's not what's going on here. Israel is trying to change the situation in the south. And as much as their tactics can be criticized, there is a chance that might just happen. Certainly the international community is now considering having international observers to enforce the terms of a ceasefire now (something Hamas opposes) while they never cared enough to act before.

Politically there's no way Israel couldn't do something at this point. Look at a chart of rocket/mortar attacks form Gaza into Israel over the last 8 years. They've gone up exponentially since Hamas took over, and has been discussed extensively, looking at Hamas' statements and charter its pretty clear they are not a valid partner for any sort of lasting peace unlike Fatah.


Unfortunately, Hamas is pretty good for the people in Gaza, unlike Fatah. There are two main groups of people who voted for Hamas:
1. People who hate Israel.
2. People who like running water (where running water stands for all the infrastructure and community help Hamas has given)

Bombing Gaza to hell is eventually going to get group 2 to conclude that the benefits of Hamas aren't worth the Israeli consequences; but it's also going to turn some of those people (and some of the people who didn't vote for Hamas) into being part of group 1. Since it's group 1 that fires the damn rockets, I would think the smart move would be to minimize that group.

There are two ways to minimize that group:
A: Kill them all. Israel seems reluctant to do this, judging by the fact that there still is a Gaza and not a reddish sandy smear.
B: Make nice. Use humanitarian aid to win group 2's support, and, given enough time, group 1 will shrink and group 2 will vote in Fatah or somebody else who will be more conducive to peace.

What they're doing right now isn't likely to help. If they want to look good for the international community, nothing looks better than helping your enemy and bearing a few civilian casualties every once in a while.

See, the problem with that whole hypothesis is that you think group 1 is something less than everyone in Gaza. They all hate Israel, and it should be pretty fucking easy to understand why considering their living conditions and the lies they're taught in school (Palestinian youth have never been taught the real history of the conflict, just the "TEH JOOS CAME AND NAZI'D US!!!!" version). The people Israel needs to affect are:

3. Hate Israel but are apathetic enough to make peace with the Zionist Oppressor if it means their standard of living rises.

Problem: group (3) tends towards extreme fiscal corruption, a la Fatah.
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Re: 200 killed, 700 injured in Israeli air attack on Gaza

Postby Malice » Mon Jan 12, 2009 1:02 am UTC

Fett42 wrote:If Israel does as you suggest then Hamas claims it was only due to their actions and their strategy of shooting indiscriminate rockets and mortars at civilian populations is justified, and uses said tactic to ask for even more. Looking at Hamas' charter and statements they won't stop even if/when Israel brings in massive humanitarian aid and opens all crossings to Gaza. What they will do it send who knows how many militants and suicide borders to fan out into Israel for attacks that are much more effective and hard to contain than their rockets and mortars. This would likely be the basis for new demands, and so on and so forth. Hamas has never indicated that it is interested in a true lasting peace with Israel and has made many statements to the contrary, statements against both the Jews in general* and the destruction of Israel in favor of a fundamentalist Islamic regime. Not to mention the fact that Hamas isn't interested in being voted out even if the people wanted to, as evidenced by their treatment of Fatah officials and supporters since they have taken over Gaza.


I don't expect Hamas to stop. I expect the public to remove their support and change governments to one which will work with Israel to destroy the new Hamas-as-terrorist-organization. If Hamas doesn't listen to the people, then Israel (or anybody else) has the right to go in and force the government to respond to their citizens' wishes.

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aleflamedyud wrote:See, the problem with that whole hypothesis is that you think group 1 is something less than everyone in Gaza. They all hate Israel, and it should be pretty fucking easy to understand why considering their living conditions and the lies they're taught in school (Palestinian youth have never been taught the real history of the conflict, just the "TEH JOOS CAME AND NAZI'D US!!!!" version).


Citation needed? I hesitate to believe a statement as general as "they all hate Israel". I think like most people they just want to live peacefully and well, and the sooner Israel helps to make that possible the sooner they'll have their support. I don't expect peoples' opinions to change overnight. Considering the propaganda in education, this might be generational work. But it has start sometime.

The people Israel needs to affect are:

3. Hate Israel but are apathetic enough to make peace with the Zionist Oppressor if it means their standard of living rises.

Problem: group (3) tends towards extreme fiscal corruption, a la Fatah.


I'm not sure precisely what you're referring to when you say extreme fiscal corruption, but if you're talking about the standard of living difference between Fatah and Hamas, well, that's a problem Israel needs to fix if they're going to make Hamas irrelevant.
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Re: 200 killed, 700 injured in Israeli air attack on Gaza

Postby Fett42 » Mon Jan 12, 2009 1:11 am UTC

I expect the public to remove their support and change governments to one which will work with Israel to destroy the new Hamas-as-terrorist-organization.


But that doesn't make any sense. As I pointed out before, if Israel resonds to the Hamas rockets/mortars by giving in to Hamas' demands and not taking any sort of military action due to Hamas' ability to practically ensure civilian casualties in any serious conflict, all that shows people is that Hamas' terrorist tactics work and that they should stay in power because that's the most effective way to get what they want from Israel.

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Re: 200 killed, 700 injured in Israeli air attack on Gaza

Postby Dream » Mon Jan 12, 2009 1:15 am UTC

aleflamedyud wrote: (Palestinian youth have never been taught the real history of the conflict, just the "TEH JOOS CAME AND NAZI'D US!!!!" version).
In fairness to the Palestinian youth, that's the part of the conlfict they have actually lived through, so it may not be as simple as school based radicalisation. Give them some credit for hating Israel because of all their dead relatives, rather than for racist reasons.
3. Hate Israel but are apathetic enough to make peace with the Zionist Oppressor if it means their standard of living rises.

Problem: group (3) tends towards extreme fiscal corruption, a la Fatah.

This is a bit of an assumption. I'd have said group (3) would be people who want peace, an believe in it as the future of their people. All those Palestinian academics on the news, those working for NGOs and involved in various grassroots assistance programs. Journalists who report the truth, and even ordinary people who don't support HAMAS, who, after all didn't win a 99% landslide when they were elected.

I don't doubt that there are those who are exactly as you describe, though I'd be more cynical and say that the really corrupt ones probably want the status quo to continue. I just think there are probably many people who would say yes when asked if they'd like to live in peace, and "look at my bulldozed house" when reminded who it is that they have to make peace with. I don't place that person in either of the first two groups Malice mentioned.
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Re: 200 killed, 700 injured in Israeli air attack on Gaza

Postby Fett42 » Mon Jan 12, 2009 1:39 am UTC

Having been to Israel I can say that there is definitely racism on both sides fueling this, which is understandable due to atrocities commited by both sides before Israel was even a state. There were horrific incidences in the War for Independence as well. The Irgun (a rival to the Hagana before it was absorbed into the IDF) perpetrated an unordered massacre of men, women and children in Deir Yassin in April 1947 for example while the Arabs slaughtered Jewish doctors and nurses and Sheikh Jarrach in the same month and killed more men, women and children at Kfar Etzion. These are just small samples, but the point is that both sides can grow up telling of the other's unwarranted massacre of innocents which only builds the hatred from a younger age... and once someone is 10 years old, its pretty hard to unlearn what you've been indoctrinated to. Given the harsher conditions the palestinians live in, they are certainly indoctrinated with more hate and while it would certainly be a great thing to depose Hamas, in the long run its the standard of living that has to rise somehow. And I don't think that can happen with Hamas taking every opportunity to attack Israeli civilians.

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Re: 200 killed, 700 injured in Israeli air attack on Gaza

Postby Malice » Mon Jan 12, 2009 2:32 am UTC

Fett42 wrote:
I expect the public to remove their support and change governments to one which will work with Israel to destroy the new Hamas-as-terrorist-organization.


But that doesn't make any sense. As I pointed out before, if Israel resonds to the Hamas rockets/mortars by giving in to Hamas' demands and not taking any sort of military action due to Hamas' ability to practically ensure civilian casualties in any serious conflict, all that shows people is that Hamas' terrorist tactics work and that they should stay in power because that's the most effective way to get what they want from Israel.


Israel has already taken military action, and killed about 900 people. I think the message is clear enough. Nor should Israel give in to Hamas' demands; I think they should ignore Hamas completely and do what's best for the people of Gaza. Hamas wants territory and they want Israel to go away, and Israel is not going to give them either of those things, no matter how many rockets fly. All Hamas is getting for its effort is more dead in their streets, and I think the people are going to notice that.

Dream wrote:
Problem: group (3) tends towards extreme fiscal corruption, a la Fatah.

This is a bit of an assumption. I'd have said group (3) would be people who want peace, an believe in it as the future of their people. All those Palestinian academics on the news, those working for NGOs and involved in various grassroots assistance programs. Journalists who report the truth, and even ordinary people who don't support HAMAS, who, after all didn't win a 99% landslide when they were elected.

I don't doubt that there are those who are exactly as you describe, though I'd be more cynical and say that the really corrupt ones probably want the status quo to continue. I just think there are probably many people who would say yes when asked if they'd like to live in peace, and "look at my bulldozed house" when reminded who it is that they have to make peace with. I don't place that person in either of the first two groups Malice mentioned.


I don't think "group 3" fit into a list of people who voted for Hamas, unless they did so because they value their standard of living over hope of peace, in which case, they belong in group 2.
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Re: 200 killed, 700 injured in Israeli air attack on Gaza

Postby Izawwlgood » Mon Jan 12, 2009 3:28 am UTC

Malice wrote:I think they should ignore Hamas completely and do what's best for the people of Gaza.


But Israel's basically been 'ignoring' the missiles coming from Gaza for the last 5ish years, if not much longer. This isn't an isolated incident, Israel didn't start this campaign because of a 'couple missiles'.

Also, no mention in the UN proposed cease-fire about Hamas turning over the kidnapped soldier, or even allowing him a Red Cross visit as per international regulations. Dubious.
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