Local news, and I am ashamed of my country/county

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Re: Local news, and I am ashamed of my country/county

Postby Malice » Mon Mar 02, 2009 11:30 pm UTC

david challice wrote:We might , in the end, disagree on immigration, though the UKIP policy of freezing immigration for 5 years is not a precursor to ending all immigration after that period. It's to give us a chance to eliminate the backlog.


If you have a backlog of people, it means your system is inefficient. The answer to that is not to turn the system off; all that will do is pile up an "unofficial" backlog, and as soon as you turn the system back on, it will once more be overwhelmed as that backlog floods in all at once. The answer is to make your system more efficient.

I never intended this to wander off into the immigration topic (nor into the amounts of benefit that could, in theory, be accrued by claimants using the social security system in other ways). As I said at the very begining, the article was criticising the Government and multi-culturalism. Not Moslems. Though I do wonder, had the article referred to Christians rather than Moslems, would there have been such a response on this site (and on a couple of others)? I suspect not.

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Aha. So we are the racists. Thank you, David, for opening my eyes to the truth.
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Re: Local news, and I am ashamed of my country/county

Postby Jesse » Mon Mar 02, 2009 11:36 pm UTC

Yes, David, there would have been a response on this site, because not only are we multi-cultural, we're also multi-faith and this forum has many members who believe that people have a right to practise what religion they will, alongside the right of someone to remain based in their culture as far as the laws of this country can allow.

I am annoyed that, rather than refute any single point I brought up, you merely gave a 'we agree to disagree' line. I don't agree to disagree, I'm not content to just not support you. I am, in fact, actively decrying your party's position on this. I'm also disappointed in you dismissing people's accusation of a message that supports racism as 'salem hysteria'. Because your message does support racism, it tells people that multiculturalism doens't work and that the solution is to make these people fit our culture (One of the most mixed cultures in the world, considering our Celtic/Saxon/Italian/French heritage). If only those people wouldn't be so different, right?

(Oh, and before I finish. I've completed my education and have actually owned my own business, so I'd prefer you remember that before using the generalisation of 'kids' on this forum again.)

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Re: Local news, and I am ashamed of my country/county

Postby juststrange » Tue Mar 03, 2009 6:13 pm UTC

Let me preface this by saying I went to one of the top 10 most diverse colleges in the United States. I am all for multi-culturalism.

This baffles me however. The culture being allowed here is in direction opposition of the "home" culture. So much so that there are laws against it. Why make special subsections of law for folks practicing things against other laws, jsut because they came from somewhere else? I find this similar to if I learned how to grow dope somewhere where it was legal, moved to the US, and not only continued to grow dope, but recieved a agricultural stimulus check available to all farmers. Obviously the stimulus check would depend on the crop grown, the more needed crops get more money, but they would have needed to write specific wording to make allowances for me Mr. Dope-Farmer.

Protection of the native culture should take priority within that country. Not so much that it oppresses others, but it needs not support cultures outside of its own (Passive - fine, active for or against - bad)

The other way to fix this is to simply allow UK citizens to take multiple spouses. I just don't see how you can have one without the other. Hypocracy I say! Thats what really bothers me here.

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Re: Local news, and I am ashamed of my country/county

Postby Jesse » Tue Mar 03, 2009 8:13 pm UTC

It's a law that allowed them to marry in another country, and recognising that marriage system is in no way detrimental to the other people of this country. If they came to this country unmarried, they wouldn't be allowed to then marry two women here, it's just a system of recognising that they are married.

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Re: Local news, and I am ashamed of my country/county

Postby stapleface » Tue Mar 03, 2009 9:10 pm UTC

I can imagine the scene at the immigration desk.
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Re: Local news, and I am ashamed of my country/county

Postby david challice » Tue Mar 03, 2009 10:37 pm UTC

To Malice...

Nope, the "backlog" is the existing one, the one caused by having no proper immigration policy because we've lost control of that area (along with so much else). Nothing to do with UKIP. We're the ones trying to sort it out, and return control to Westminster (elected by the British people, remember) You can't vote out the EU Commission. They run this country (as they do every other "member state").

And I'm not calling you racist. The reason I came onto your site was because a few idiots thought that my Trago piece was "racist" when it was about the stupidity of my own Government. But the point I made about Christianity is valid. Perhaps I should test it out and write a future Trago article highlighting advantages gained by Christians. (That probably wouldn't work, because of the cultural and historical background, but I still suspect that the progressive-left would be very happy, and tacitly approve.)

By the way, I'm no church-goer.



To Jesse...

The reason we agree to disagree (and then have an election to sort out who is right) is because the alternative is the gun. I prefer my way. You disagree. So let's agree to disagree.

I used the "generalisation" kids because when I saw contributors on this site trying to silence someone by calling them names...racist, xenophobe, even anti-European... (the latter not here yet, but give it time. It'll come) that's when I realised that many of them needed to grow up and live a little. Don't try to shut up the opposition by insulting them. It never works. (Sometimes in works in the short-term... Hitler, Mao, Stalin) but long-term it's a blind alley.

It's been said that if you're not left-wing when you're young, you have no heart. But if you're not right wing when older, you have no brain. That's putting it a bit strongly perhaps (the world is more complex now) but essentially I think it's near the mark.

You'll probably disagree.


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Re: Local news, and I am ashamed of my country/county

Postby cypherspace » Tue Mar 03, 2009 10:59 pm UTC

david challice wrote:I used the "generalisation" kids because when I saw contributors on this site trying to silence someone by calling them names...racist, xenophobe, even anti-European... (the latter not here yet, but give it time. It'll come) that's when I realised that many of them needed to grow up and live a little. Don't try to shut up the opposition by insulting them. It never works.
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Re: Local news, and I am ashamed of my country/county

Postby Dream » Wed Mar 04, 2009 4:25 am UTC

david challice wrote:To Malice...

Nope, the "backlog" is the existing one, the one caused by having no proper immigration policy because we've lost control of that area (along with so much else). Nothing to do with UKIP. We're the ones trying to sort it out, and return control to Westminster (elected by the British people, remember) You can't vote out the EU Commission. They run this country (as they do every other "member state").

Sine the Act of Union was repealed, or at least ceased to cover the Irish Free State, Irish people have enjoyed freedom to travel to the United Kingdom and live there, contributing to society and slowly forging closer links between the two nations that perhaps even existed during the Union. I believe that extending this principle to the rest of Europe is, and has been good for the UK. I certainly wouldn't have lived there were it not for the freedom to do so without visas or leave to remain. Being Irish, my presence was never questioned. Hopefully, in future, other people's presence will not be questioned either. There is certainly a precedent there.

The UK has not lost control of its immigration policies. It has taken a decision to widen the criteria for entry and work to include many, many more people. This is excercising control, even if you don't think it is being exercised in the right direction. The EU is a framework within which the UK exerts its control, borders and visas and citizenship included. Your view point is not reflected in the direction the UK has taken with immigration not because the EU makes it so, but because you have no support in the British population as a whole. Were your policies in tune with what Britain wants for itself, you would be living at a very famous address indeed. You are not. Please just accept that, and stop the polemical expounding on "control" of immigration.
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Re: Local news, and I am ashamed of my country/county

Postby Undecided » Wed Mar 04, 2009 4:55 am UTC

International and multicultural relations are much too important and complicated to be handled so flippantly with an "us versus them" approach.

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Re: Local news, and I am ashamed of my country/county

Postby LuNatic » Wed Mar 04, 2009 5:19 am UTC

Jesse wrote:It's a law that allowed them to marry in another country, and recognising that marriage system is in no way detrimental to the other people of this country. If they came to this country unmarried, they wouldn't be allowed to then marry two women here, it's just a system of recognising that they are married.


Then why let them into the country? This wasn't just a cultural taboo, it was outright illegal. Is seems to me, that if you refuse to accept another country's laws and culture, you should stay the hell away, not expect it to bend to yours. Is that racist of me?
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Re: Local news, and I am ashamed of my country/county

Postby Dream » Wed Mar 04, 2009 6:10 am UTC

LuNatic wrote:that if you refuse to accept another country's laws and culture, you should stay the hell away, not expect it to bend to yours. Is that racist of me?

The immigrant in a two-wife marriage isn't respecting of disrespecting British customs by being in the marriage. You are imposing your customs on them by telling them what they can and can't do in their private lives. You are expecting them to bend to your ideas, but there is no other side to it where they would be bending your culture to theirs if you didn't.

And it is racist if you base your belief in this around a characterisation of a particular race. Otherwise it's just a particularly obnoxious social idea.
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Re: Local news, and I am ashamed of my country/county

Postby david challice » Fri Mar 06, 2009 10:59 pm UTC

To cypherspace...

If you think that my describing some of you as "brainwashed kids" is the same as an accusation of (illegal) racism then God help us all. Your teachers have a lot to answer for.

More importantly.

To Dream...

Links "forged between the UK and Ireland during the Union", DO exist. Ireland was once part of the Union, and in many ways still is: cultural and historical in particular. A silly example perhaps but take the Eurovision Song Contest. The UK usually limps in at 15th if we're lucky. Without Ireland's 12 points we'd be crushed. (Though Terry Wogan has now walked away because he realises that the whole thing is a total farce... just like its big brother the EU) As an aside, Graham Norton replaced him, prompting one commentator to say: "That gives me TWO reasons not to watch the bloody thing."

As for the Labour Government deliberately and conciously surrendering its powers over immigration, it's a fair point. I agree with you and - along with the rest of UKIP - I don't like it. But that doesn't mean that we should stay quiet. We won't.

When the EU enlarged (to take in the 10 new eastern-European countries) Labour predicted that approx 13,000 workers would come here in the first year. 130,000 came that year. Either they got it so wrong that they shouldn't be in government, or they suspected what would happen and lied.

When Lord Mandelson recently told the Immingham strikers that they shouldn't complain about their jobs going to contract labour from Italy, he was dead right. We signed up to the Single European Act, and then the Maastrict Treaty. Both under the Tories. When Thatcher finally realised what was going on, and said "No", they knifed her in the back. And if you or I went to most EU states and applied for jobs we'd soon go hungry. If you're honest, you'll admit that I'm right.

It's very simple: within the rules of the EU Single Market (the one that... incidentally... is responsible for totally wrecking our postal service) there is no such thing as "British Jobs for British Workers".

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Re: Local news, and I am ashamed of my country/county

Postby TheStranger » Fri Mar 06, 2009 11:11 pm UTC

Dream wrote:The immigrant in a two-wife marriage isn't respecting of disrespecting British customs by being in the marriage. You are imposing your customs on them by telling them what they can and can't do in their private lives. You are expecting them to bend to your ideas, but there is no other side to it where they would be bending your culture to theirs if you didn't.


Said immigrant is disrespecting those customs if that immigrant enters the Britain but acts in a way that blatantly violates the customs and laws of Britain. It is one thing to say you are married, but to expect the laws of the country to bend to the will of an immigrant (by recognizing that multiple marriage as legal)
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Re: Local news, and I am ashamed of my country/county

Postby Dream » Sat Mar 07, 2009 12:05 am UTC

david challice wrote:As for the Labour Government deliberately and conciously surrendering its powers over immigration, it's a fair point. I agree with you


I did not say that. It says much about your policies that you need to clutch at legitimisations for your arguments, like "agree to disagree" and claiming that I might hold anything approaching the opinions you do. Most political positions of merit stand by themselves. Yours on the other hand includes a highly exaggerated effort to demonstrate its reasonability. You protest too much.

What I posted, and you ignored in order to repeat your tired dogma, was that the government is exercising its powers, not losing them. The government sees a great benefit in its immigration latitude. Because you seem incapable of seeing the benefits of immigration, you assume that it could only be happening because the government has "lost control" of it. It has not, nor has any other European nation. Please try to get it through your head: A majority of Europeans like things the way they are now. That's why they are that way.

david challice wrote:And if you or I went to most EU states and applied for jobs we'd soon go hungry. If you're honest, you'll admit that I'm right.
I went to another European country, found a job, and a profession, which I am now following in a third, non-european country. I did not go hungry. Along with this, I found friends from all over the world, and friends from that EU country. All of whom had lived in more than one country, and happily so. I will return there soon, in spite of recession because that is where I live my life now.

You might know this country. It is the United Kingdom. So, if I'm honest, going to another EU country has been good for me, and everyone around me. If you are honest, you will find them same is true in every other EU nation. Sadly, with the way you blithely claimed my agreement with yourself, it seems dishonesty becomes you.
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Re: Local news, and I am ashamed of my country/county

Postby david challice » Sat Mar 07, 2009 10:15 am UTC

To Dream..... Let's be clear. I'm not trying to pretend that I agree with you when I don't. What I wrote was that the Government's decision to allow virtually uncontrolled immigration into the UK was not simply because it had "lost control" but that it had deliberatly chosen that policy because it thought it to be the right one. It isn't the right one. A certain amount of immigration, controlled immigration, is desirable. But ask the American Indians what happens when you don't control immigration. And if this is ignored as airily as you are doing then I can see the BNP soon getting MPs in the House of Commons... and they will be taking those seats not from the Tories or Lib Dems but from the Labour Party.

As for the "majority of Europeans liking things the way they are" perhaps you haven't noticed that every single time the EU has asked people to vote on something (Nice Treaty, Constitution etc) the people come back with a vote NO. When the "majority of Europeans" who were allowed a vote on the Lisbon Treaty (the Irish) came back with the thumbs down, they were told to go away, do it again, come back with the right answer. Peter Mandelson even admitted it when he became an EU Commissioner: "We are now entering the post-democratic phase".

If me being reasonable gets under your skin then that's your problem.

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Re: Local news, and I am ashamed of my country/county

Postby Dream » Sat Mar 07, 2009 11:41 am UTC

A couple of post ago, you wrote:
Our governments have signed away the power to control who comes into the country.

And now you contend that your positions is:
david challice wrote:it had deliberatly chosen that policy because it thought it to be the right one.


One means the government has no control over its own immigration policy, the other means it does. Which is it?

david challice wrote:As for the "majority of Europeans liking things the way they are" perhaps you haven't noticed that every single time the EU has asked people to vote on something (Nice Treaty, Constitution etc) the people come back with a vote NO.

Were I asked to (and I was asked, of course) choose between a catch-all "yes" or "no" to a document with hundreds of sections and paragraphs, each with the force of law, I would vote "no". As it was I abstained on anything I didn't fully understand. Recent EU referendums in Ireland have included such level headed and sensible contributions as "a yes vote means conscription foryour child." So, no matter how much you would like every EU vote to be a plebiscite on your pet issues, it is much more likely to be that people just don't like voting yes on issues they don't understand at all. Why is this more likely? Well, because the people of Europe keep voting in parties that support European integration. As long as the they keep doing that, yet rejecting specific European legislation, it will be clear that they support a more open European Union, even if not any of those particular motions.

david challice wrote:But ask the American Indians what happens when you don't control immigration.


Let your fantasies run wild for a moment, and imagine yourself on the front bench in the Commons. Imagine then, if you still have any imagination left after the effort that last imagining must have taken, that you were asked a question from the opposition about your immigration policy. And imagine further that your answer was along the lines of "Uncontrolled immigration will lead to the deaths of 88 million Britons and the virtual extermination of the British people!" I think, if I may do some imagining of my own, that you might find out the secret reason the Speaker has an immense mace sitting in front of him at all times.
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Re: Local news, and I am ashamed of my country/county

Postby david challice » Sat Mar 07, 2009 11:44 pm UTC

To Dream...

Well hello again. May I explain? The Government signed away the power to control who enters Britain because they thought they were right. (That was the one point where we agreed... though you didn't seem to like it). But they were wrong. They were incompetent, naive, and stupid.

If I wrote it in letters of fire 30ft-high would you still miss the message? Probably.

UKIP is totally opposed to uncontrolled immigration because the consequences are unknown and potentially dangerous. Losing control of the brake is unwise. Ask your driving instructor.

As for "control" over policy (most policy, not just immigration) we lost that years ago. I'll quote Bill Newton Dunn (a Lib Dem MEP and a great fan of the EU): "There is no plot by the European Parliament to usurp powers from the House of Commons. The Commons has never had power over European laws. When ministers go to Brussels they leave their democratic shackles behind them."

Swinging the mace in the House of Commons (whoever swings) is as much use as a parish councillor having a hissy-fit in Burton-Bradstock village hall. A United States of Europe is being built, and we in Britain will be just a province on the western edge. You and I might agree or disagree whether it's a good idea, but it's happening and UKIP's job is to stop Britain being dragged in so far that we can never get out.

The recent Irish vote on the Constitution was highly complex, I accept that (sorry if this seems reasonable... I hope you'll understand) but the whole point of the EU Constitution (the one that France said "No" to) was that it was deliberately designed to be confusing. They didn't want people to understand it, and then had the temerity to admit the fact afterwards. Obscuration was built into the document by Giscard destaing, the man hired to write it.

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Re: Local news, and I am ashamed of my country/county

Postby The Great Hippo » Sun Mar 08, 2009 12:03 am UTC

david challice wrote:But ask the American Indians what happens when you don't control immigration.
I don't understand the going-ons in this discussion very much (dumb-headed McDumb-Nuts American over here with zero awareness when it comes to Britain's politics), but please don't compare any modern country's immigration policy to the situation that the American Indians faced. That's such a wildly inaccurate characterization that I don't even know where to request the paper-work I'd need to file to make the first step towards an action that would resemble me starting to begin. I mean, you're basically implying that irresponsible immigration policies would lead to widespread murder, rape, genocide, cities being burned to the ground, 'native Britain reservation camps', etc.

If you're going to talk about irresponsible immigration policies, point at some real places in the real world that really have suffered as a result of such policies. But do not point towards examples of imperial colonialism. I mean, would you claim that apartheid was the product of irresponsible immigration policies?

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Re: Local news, and I am ashamed of my country/county

Postby william » Sun Mar 08, 2009 12:10 am UTC

The Great Hippo wrote:
david challice wrote:But ask the American Indians what happens when you don't control immigration.
I don't understand the going-ons in this discussion very much (dumb-headed McDumb-Nuts American over here with zero awareness when it comes to Britain's politics), but please don't compare any modern country's immigration policy to the situation that the American Indians faced. That's such a wildly inaccurate characterization that I don't even know where to request the paper-work I'd need to file to make the first step towards an action that would resemble me starting to begin. I mean, you're basically implying that irresponsible immigration policies would lead to widespread murder, rape, genocide, cities being burned to the ground, 'native Britain reservation camps', etc.

If you're going to talk about irresponsible immigration policies, point at some real places in the real world that really have suffered as a result of such policies. But do not point towards examples of imperial colonialism. I mean, would you claim that apartheid was the product of irresponsible immigration policies?

Not to mention that uncontrollable immigration was the situation in the United States for over a century and although there were crazy anti-immigrant people like the KKK even then the most we got was the Mafia.
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Re: Local news, and I am ashamed of my country/county

Postby The Great Hippo » Sun Mar 08, 2009 12:19 am UTC

william wrote:Not to mention that uncontrollable immigration was the situation in the United States for over a century and although there were crazy anti-immigrant people like the KKK even then the most we got was the Mafia.
And the best we got was Albert Einstein, Nikolai Tesla, the trans-continental rail road, and an immense infusion of rapid cultural, technological, financial, and infrastructural development during the late 19th and early 20th century.

Yeah, the whole 'uncontrolled immigration' thing worked out horribly for America, didn't it?

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Re: Local news, and I am ashamed of my country/county

Postby Dream » Sun Mar 08, 2009 12:20 am UTC

david challice wrote:Well hello again. May I explain? The Government signed away the power to control who enters Britain because they thought they were right.

You still contend that they "signed away" the power. They didn't. They entered a multilateral agreement to remove visa controls (and later work permits) for certain countries with whom they saw a benefit for Britain in the free exchange of people. And they were right to do so, because millions of Britons have benefitted from the arrangement by working in Europe, and hundreds if not thousands of British companies have benefitted from access to a wider jobs market. The vast majority of the world still has to pass through immigration control, and acquire a visa or leave to remain in order to live in Britain. I can only repeat that allowing Portuguese or Czech people live and work in Britain was an exercising of immigration policy, not an abrogation of it.

david challice wrote:Swinging the mace in the House of Commons (whoever swings) is as much use as a parish councillor having a hissy-fit in Burton-Bradstock village hall.


You just likened immigration into the UK to the genocide by warfare, disease and land expropriation of tens of millions of people by state policy. In fact, you actually said that if we wanted to understand what would happen if UK immigration were uncontrolled, we could look to the experience of the Native Americans. So you basically said that Britain will be slaughtered in its millions and stolen by war if we don't keep immigrants out. Unless you can see the problem with this, you are clearly not competent to discuss anything more subtle than a Prescott face-punching.
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Re: Local news, and I am ashamed of my country/county

Postby william » Sun Mar 08, 2009 4:33 am UTC

The Great Hippo wrote:
william wrote:Not to mention that uncontrollable immigration was the situation in the United States for over a century and although there were crazy anti-immigrant people like the KKK even then the most we got was the Mafia.
And the best we got was Albert Einstein, Nikolai Tesla, the trans-continental rail road, and an immense infusion of rapid cultural, technological, financial, and infrastructural development during the late 19th and early 20th century.

Yeah, the whole 'uncontrolled immigration' thing worked out horribly for America, didn't it?

Honestly, the anti-immigration riots were more harmful than the immigrants.
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Re: Local news, and I am ashamed of my country/county

Postby cypherspace » Mon Mar 09, 2009 9:04 am UTC

david challice wrote:To cypherspace...

If you think that my describing some of you as "brainwashed kids" is the same as an accusation of (illegal) racism then God help us all. Your teachers have a lot to answer for.

You assume that I'm younger than you are. Don't make assumptions without evidence.

Your statement was absurdly hypocritical. You say that describing people as racists is a method of silencing them without addressing the arguments, then you describe people as brainwashed kids, doing exactly the same thing. It is an ad hominem attack and a fallacy. Your own teachers have plenty to answer for if you do not know what that is.
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Re: Local news, and I am ashamed of my country/county

Postby Indon » Mon Mar 09, 2009 9:40 pm UTC

david challice wrote:Two or three readers (apart from yourself) have objected to my recent Trago piece about State benefits for polygamous Islamic marriages, calling it racist and offensive.

Let’s get a few things straight: the article was based on reports in the Daily Mail, Sunday Telegraph, and Times newspapers. There was no hint of racism. The mention of Islam and Muslems was strictly factual. Or are these complainants disputing that a Muslem can come to this country with a harem of wives, and claim state benefits for each of them? The taxpayer, of course, picks up the tab for this. As for giving offence, I find it offensive that ill-informed correspondents can flounder around with false accusations of racism.

Well, that's just great.

What's the couple benefit rate compared to the additional spouse rate? If a muslim with three wives can not make more than twice the couple benefit rate through a polygamous marriage, then it strikes me that he's saving the state money.

Which then leads me to wonder what the problem is.

So... what's the couple benefit rate?
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Re: Local news, and I am ashamed of my country/county

Postby david challice » Wed Mar 11, 2009 11:06 pm UTC

To Dream…

I came to this forum defending my Trago Mills article about Moslems claiming State benefits for multiple wives (bigamy is illegal in Britain) when a few contributors accused it of racism. Some even thought the spelling of Moslem was racist (Dictionary definition of Moslem is: “same as Muslim”). I made the point that the attack was not against Islam but against the Government for allowing such idiocy. Things then moved to whether the Government has lost control and surrendered powers.

You think they haven’t surrendered powers. I believe they have, partly because this particular government is (on the whole) idiotic and incompetent, and partly because the powers they surrendered were ones they no longer wanted… though there’s a further area we’ve never touched upon: whether those powers were even theirs to give away in the first place. I contend that they were not. In a democracy, the people lend power to the Government. If I lend you a DVD, that means I want it back again when you’ve watched it. I don’t want you telling me that you made it “a common EU resource” and passed it to some bloke in Rome, in the interests of European harmony.

The polygamy law was brought in on the quiet because they knew it would be unpopular. You’ll find it on the Dept of Work and Pensions website under RR2 “A guide to Housing Benefit and Council Tax Benefit”, but this took some unearthing. When we contacted the DWP no-one there knew anything about it. Some officials even doubted its existence, despite The Times, Mail, and Sunday Telegraph already breaking the story.

On the surrender of powers, Abu Qatada (so-called European Ambassador for bin Laden) should have been deported to Jordan to face terrorism charges, but then the Human Rights Act intervened (signed by Tony Blair). So now Qatada lives in an £800,000 home in West London, claiming £8,000 incapacity benefit for a bad back. His wife has been claiming £45,000 a year in child benefit, income support, housing benefit, and council tax credit (Daily Mail 23/06/2008, though it also appeared in many other newspapers).

Taxpayers are paying £500,000 a year for 24-hr surveillance on him, a man who arrived here 14 years ago on a forged passport.

His MP (Steve Pound, Labour, Ealing) said: “This is adding insult to injury. He abuses us and bleeds us dry at the same time. The sooner he gets back to Jordan the better. I would put him in the boot of my car and drive him there myself.” Frankly, I’d be glad to share the driving, and have said so in a previous Trago article.

Recent attempts by the Home Secretary to deport Qatada have failed, and it now looks very likely that the UK Government will have to pay him massive compensation because the poor lamb’s feelings have been hurt. In my book, that’s loss of control. Just as suffered by the American Indians when they gave those White settlers a turkey dinner all those years ago. Big mistake. They never suspected the consequences of their actions, and it seems to me that neither has Dream. Will it lead to mass killings? Probably not. Hopefully not. But human beings are territorial animals and who knows the eventual repercussions of a government surrendering that most fundamental right of controlling who enters (and leaves) its own country?

True, the UK Government retains the power to block non-EU citizens from entering. But once you acquire an EU passport (no matter how you obtained it, or in which EU State) then the path is wide open, the equivalent of the Government piling the furniture against the front door, but leaving the back door and all the ground-floor windows wide open.

UKIP has no problem at all with foreign workers coming in, on limited work permits to perform specific functions. It’s all part of Capitalism and it works fine. Trago Mills employs some Polish workers (partly because many Brits are happy extending one hand from under the duvet and getting benefits dropped into it). In fairness I’m totally convinced that most of the Poles, Latvians etc that come here are the ones who do actually want to work (the work-shy and feckless Latvians are presumably under a duvet somewhere in Riga… though I’ll bet their benefits system is a pale shadow of our own).

The problem is that the entire situation has now got out of hand. The Government has lost control, the people are furious, and even the BBC are now predicting that the BNP might get a couple of seats at the European elections in June. Let’s hope not. But if it happens, it is entirely predictable because of this blinkered, head-in-the-sand approach.

It’s been said that a Conservative is just a Liberal who got mugged. Whether you like it or not, millions of British people now feel like they’ve been mugged (and the credit crash isn’t helping) which is why at the UK general election in Spring 2010 the Labour Government will be obliterated: a wipe-out of the same proportions suffered by John Major back in 1997. Not so much a mugging as hospitalisation. On the subject of ad hominem physical violence, lay off John Prescott. He might be a class-obsessed bully but he deploys a great left-jab.

I possibly won’t come onto the forum again (cue the massed cheers of “Wonderful!”) but I hope that I’ve made the point about the Trago article that I was most concerned about.

Essentially UKIP wants the British people to be able to determine their own future, at the ballot box, and not be governed by unelected EU Commissioners in Brussels. The EU currently makes the rules (80% of our laws are now made in Brussels). It’s in their DNA, and they don't know how to stop.

For more detailed info on UKIP’s policy please visit http://www.ukip.org and look for yourself. While you’re on there, you could enter the UKIP Shop and buy my book The View From Here (£6.99). Jesse, Dream and Cypherspace probably won’t be customers, but the more open-minded among you might be interested. Either way, for the most part I’ve enjoyed it … even if a few of you disagreed to disagree.

David Challice
UK Independence Party.

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Re: Local news, and I am ashamed of my country/county

Postby Indon » Thu Mar 12, 2009 12:07 am UTC

I guess I'm to just assume that the government benefits involved in honoring muslim marriages are simply completely irrelevant to the article's point, seeing as the author doesn't seem to care.
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Re: Local news, and I am ashamed of my country/county

Postby Dream » Thu Mar 12, 2009 2:29 am UTC

david challice wrote:I possibly won’t come onto the forum again (cue the massed cheers of “Wonderful!”) but I hope that I’ve made the point about the Trago article that I was most concerned about.

Well, if you won't be back, I won't be investing any effort in responding to a wall of text with a good dozen problems in it. You are still clinging to the idea that scaremongering with the experience of the Native Americans is ok, which I simply cannot fathom. You're now ok with work permits, but only where British benefit-spongers aren't doing the work. There's much more, but you're not going to care, so I'm not going to bother.

And this hasn't at all been an enjoyable experience for me. Just a sadly necessary task to be undertaken instead of many other things I might be doing, so that people of your stripe don't appear to be without detractors. Petty nationalism and thinly veiled xenophobia are not the norm for the people of the modern, dynamic, culturally confident Europe. That needs to be demonstrated every time someone like you pops up like those heads in a carnival game.
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Re: Local news, and I am ashamed of my country/county

Postby aleflamedyud » Fri Mar 13, 2009 12:53 am UTC

"Petty nationalism"? What's wrong with nationalism?
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Re: Local news, and I am ashamed of my country/county

Postby Dream » Fri Mar 13, 2009 1:50 am UTC

My experience of Nationalism is obviously a bit negative, considering that it is closely associated with Northern Ireland. Which is not to say that Irish Nationalism as a whole is, but the Nationalists I have been acquainted with have been of the stupid, bigoted type. cf. PhoenixRider and the idiot support in the Republic that was mentioned in the NI thread.

I say petty nationalism to Challice because instead of being predicated on centuries of conflict and discord, it is predicated on Polish people working in the UK, or benefits for second wives. It is petty because next to the titanic struggles of serious, necessary nationalism (which I'm not a fan of, but that is beside the point just now) it is contemptible to wrap yourself in the mantle of your entire nation because you think the employment market is a bit skewed.
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Re: Local news, and I am ashamed of my country/county

Postby Kizyr » Fri Mar 13, 2009 3:40 pm UTC

Indon wrote:I guess I'm to just assume that the government benefits involved in honoring muslimpolygamous marriages are simply completely irrelevant to the article's point, seeing as the author doesn't seem to care.

It's more the fact that when you debate with someone like David here, he's going to ignore every point except for the ones he can easily refute (and by refute, I mean the ones that give him an opportunity to repeat the UKIP's platform). I mean, why would he respond to a point that confuses the situation with reality? (And fixed--the issue isn't honoring Muslim marriages, since that's already done, but honoring polygamous marriages.)

I've just been sitting back and enjoying the show, since if I made any response it'd necessarily include several different points and different angles by which I'd point out David's shortsightedness and thinly-veiled bigotry (in the end, this was already done by other folks, so I'd just be repeating what was already said). Unfortunately, since it'd include different points, most of them would get ignored.

Let's try a few anyway:
david wrote:I came to this forum defending my Trago Mills article about Moslems claiming State benefits for multiple wives (bigamy is illegal in Britain) when a few contributors accused it of racism. Some even thought the spelling of Moslem was racist (Dictionary definition of Moslem is: “same as Muslim”).

The article wasn't racist. It was bigoted, however. It was bigoted since it was using a contrived example based upon negative stereotypes of a particular group of people, and this example, despite being extremely rare, was described as being so common as to warrant concern. To translate: (a) polygamous marriages among Muslims is extremely rare, (b) your article was based around the example of this rare occurrence, and (c) you described it as if it were a common enough occurrence to warrant concern, therefore (d) your article is founded on the mistaken premise that a rare practice is common among Muslims.

To summarize: it is not the goal of the article that makes it bigoted; it's the way you supported your goal.

Second, the word "harem" doesn't refer to a group of one person's wives. Your incorrect use of the term is consistent with your demonstrated lack of understanding of what is and isn't common among Muslims. However, to repeat, you only brought up Muslims in the first place since you found it convenient to use a negative and inaccurate stereotype to further your point.

Third, you should probably quit fixating on your spelling of Muslim vs. Moslem. I already clarified in my earlier post what the distinction was: "Moslem" is antiquated, while "Muslim" is contemporary. You can use "Moslem", but as it's a nonstandard and antiquated spelling, it'll come off as uneducated.

david wrote:Essentially UKIP wants the British people to be able to determine their own future, at the ballot box, and not be governed by unelected EU Commissioners in Brussels. The EU currently makes the rules (80% of our laws are now made in Brussels). It’s in their DNA, and they don't know how to stop.

For more detailed info on UKIP’s policy please visit http://www.ukip.org and look for yourself. While you’re on there, you could enter the UKIP Shop and buy my book The View From Here (£6.99). Jesse, Dream and Cypherspace probably won’t be customers, but the more open-minded among you might be interested. Either way, for the most part I’ve enjoyed it … even if a few of you disagreed to disagree.

You've made a point about the article. You've also made it clear that the UKIP, besides being opposed to EU membership, is also horribly xenophobic and prone to believing negative stereotypes. (You got on this point when you began to mention multiculturalism. Refer to Jesse's posts--I notice that beyond "agreeing to disagree" you did nothing but indirectly support his contention.)

In the US, there's a group called the KKK. The KKK is strongly anti-communist, and in their earlier years they were also pro-temperance (abstaining from alcohol). The KKK is also virulently racist. Even people who are anti-communist and don't drink (like myself) won't remotely affiliate themselves with the KKK, because the virulent racism dominates their image. Similarly, even if I were opposed to UK membership in the EU, I'd be about as likely to support the UKIP as I would be to support the BNP, since the xenophobia dominates their image.

To summarize: the fact that you want the UK out of the EU isn't the reason you're labeled as xenophobic; the fact that you use such ridiculous examples as a reason to oppose multiculturalism is the reason you're labeled as xenophobic. And that is what dominates the UKIP's image.

david challice wrote:Of the estimated 1.25 million readers of the Column (which has been running for 40 years in twenty-five different newspapers) I am unaware of a single complaint from any Muslem reader.

"Dear David Challice. I found your column extremely offensive.
-KF"

There, you can't say that you haven't gotten a single complaint (however, since you're likely not to read this, you can probably go on claiming that you're unaware of a single complaint). I'd wager the remainder of people who would be offended probably took your advice and didn't read the article (or don't read your column in general--like how I don't watch Fox News or listen to Rush Limbaugh or Sean Hannity). It's also possible that you're not high-profile enough to warrant that much attention.

david challice wrote:A gang of skinheads in an Indian restaurant, guzzling lager, tucking into curry, and bellowing: “Oi, Gunga din,” to the waiter, might be sampling exotic cuisine of the east, but are hardly a great example of multiculturalism.

This was my favorite line of the entire thread.

I think I understand now. The UKIP is against skinheads at Indian restaurants. Got it!

I've been trying to come up with other lines as silly and pointless, but I can't quite top it...
"Guys in white hoods ordering a hot dog from Ben's Chili Bowl is hardly a great example of racial integration."
"A group of crips chowing down at a Denny's calling the waiter 'whitey' is hardly a great example of racial harmony."

Anyone else care to try? KF
Spoiler:
I'm going to try something else here. I wager that David's unfamiliar with how forums operate (evidenced by lack of quote tags), so my guess is that he won't click the "spoiler" button and read this, if he returns. So I'll use this opportunity to guess what his response would be. (For fairness, I won't edit this post.)

To begin, I'm guessing there's about a 50% chance he'll return. But so this doesn't get boring, I'll operate on the presumption that he will post again.

First, he's going to ignore my main point at the beginning, that "it is not the goal of the article that makes it bigoted; it's the way you supported your goal". Instead, he'll respond only to my criticism of his inaccurate use of the word "harem" and spelling of "Moslem". The response will be (1) "I use the definition of 'harem' commonly understood by my readers", (2) that the spelling "Moslem" is in the dictionary, and (3) to ignore the remainder of the points and continue on about how the article wasn't "in the least bit insulting to Muslims", probably repeating the same things he's mentioned before.

Second, in response to my point that the UKIP has demonstrated itself to be xenophobic, and he's demonstrated himself to be bigoted, he'll probably mention again the non-white members of the UKIP. Of course, the "but I got black friends!" argument sounds ridiculous, but that won't affect the response.

Third, he'll ignore the note re: complaints on the article being offensive. (If he ignores it, he can probably continue to claim to be unaware of any complaints.)

Fourth, and finally, he'll respond to my comments re: the "skinheads at Indian restaurant" line as being childish and immature, then probably add a few ad hominem attacks on how I'm uneducated and haven't yet finished school (despite the fact that I'm pretty sure my profile lists my occupation, but oh well). There's a slight chance that he'll respond only to this point at the exclusion of everything else I've said.
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Re: Local news, and I am ashamed of my country/county

Postby justaman » Fri Mar 13, 2009 10:06 pm UTC

@David Challice:

I suspect that you will find, if you look around a bit more on this site, that the vast majority of people here are either agnostic or atheist, and when it comes to that, remarkably egalitarian in their views on many subjects. Their defense of "Moslem" rights would probably be equally applied to a white Christian from France, if there was anything to distinguish them from the average Briton in terms of priviledge under-, or indeed outside- of current law and common practice. Your argument that you were attacking the government is true, but at the same time you were also being racist - you didn't mention any of the other religions/cultures that practice polygyny - there are many in Africa and some in the Asiatic countries.

If someone does not agree with your views they may, as you say, just not read the relevant articles/column. However, there is a moderate and reasonably vocal group on this forum who are "Feminist" (see The radical idea that women are people too thread), who argue in their equalist way, that apathy is nearly as bad as being anti-feminist. The implication being that if you truely want equality of any form, you can't just be passive and say "I am not anti-racism/feminism/disability, society is all equal now under law", you need to examine what you see each and every day and see if this equality actually exists: this means reading your column and responding to it.

Don't get me wrong, I am racist, you are racist, everyone to some extent is racist, it is part of every culture and human nature to group ourselves into Us and Them, but with a bit of effort and some more time, it doesn't have to be that way - can you tell what country, I'm from or Indon is from, or any of the other participants in this forum where it isn't specified in their profile. I would be willing to bet that you see the majority as white and male (I do, it seems to be the default on the internet), when you could be responding to someone who not only isn't male but is also from deepest Kyrghzstan (Asiatic), yet you are happy (or maybe not) to debate with them here - their english is good, their arguments well thought out, etc, would you be happy to see them come to the UK and get a job?
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Re: Local news, and I am ashamed of my country/county

Postby TheGrammarBolshevik » Sat Mar 14, 2009 5:06 pm UTC

Kizyr wrote:Third, you should probably quit fixating on your spelling of Muslim vs. Moslem. I already clarified in my earlier post what the distinction was: "Moslem" is antiquated, while "Muslim" is contemporary. You can use "Moslem", but as it's a nonstandard and antiquated spelling, it'll come off as uneducated.


Uneducated or Ann Coulter. I am not a Muslim, but "Moslem" is off-putting to me in the same way that "negro" would be.
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Re: Local news, and I am ashamed of my country/county

Postby Dream » Sun Mar 15, 2009 12:18 am UTC

Yeah, if your every mention of a social group deliberately connects them to a century when they were often feared, reviled and hated, and you go to some effort to do this, there is something very wrong. The best that could be said of such is that is it a transparent attempt to start a "PC" fight, because such things go over well with your supporters. "The best" in this case, means also reprehensible.
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