UAE fines mother over baby death

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tgjensen
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Re: UAE fines mother over baby death

Postby tgjensen » Mon May 11, 2009 10:12 pm UTC

While I realise that this discussion has digressed into a more principal one, I think it's important to point out that the woman in the original post was nine months pregnant. As far as I'm aware (though I admit I did not bother doing much research on it) no country allows abortions at this stage without acute medical justification. Furthermore the child at this point ought to be quite capable of breathing and feeding on it's own, so I don't believe women's bodily autonomy is very relevant either.

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Jorsh!
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Re: UAE fines mother over baby death

Postby Jorsh! » Tue May 12, 2009 6:26 am UTC

There are countries which might disagree with you there. Canada, for example, where it is not a baby until it is both completely outside of the woman's body and alive. This was decided by the Supreme Court in the case of R. v. Sullivan in 1991.

So, depending where you are and who you ask, the woman's bodily autonomy is very relevant.
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The Great Hippo
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Re: UAE fines mother over baby death

Postby The Great Hippo » Tue May 12, 2009 7:09 am UTC

One of my things (and please don't eat me for expressing this opinion, I realize it is controversial and I am willing to be talked out of it) is that a fetus is not valueless - I mean, I don't consider it a human life, but that doesn't mean that it's okay to start up fetus farms and eat them or whatever. It's not a binary process - "fetuses are worthless, therefore women have the right to destroy them" - it's simply a comparison of values - "fetuses are worth something, but a woman's right to bodily autonomy is worth a lot more". This, to me, complicates the issue.

Edit: This post is not in response to the poster above me. I was just clarifying why I sometimes see the existence of a gray area - because I don't see the fetus as a valueless object, just of less value than the rights of a woman to govern their own body. I see, then, a right for a woman to reject its existence inside her - to expel it or ultimately destroy it - but not a right for her to mutilate it or do it harm in a way that is not an expression of her right to be free of it.

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michaelandjimi
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Re: UAE fines mother over baby death

Postby michaelandjimi » Tue May 12, 2009 9:11 am UTC

The Great Hippo wrote:One of my things (and please don't eat me for expressing this opinion, I realize it is controversial and I am willing to be talked out of it) is that a fetus is not valueless - I mean, I don't consider it a human life, but that doesn't mean that it's okay to start up fetus farms and eat them or whatever. It's not a binary process - "fetuses are worthless, therefore women have the right to destroy them" - it's simply a comparison of values - "fetuses are worth something, but a woman's right to bodily autonomy is worth a lot more". This, to me, complicates the issue.
Well, yes. Fetuses have value inasmuch as they have the potential to turn into things with value - people. They certainly have a lot more value than unfertilised eggs, and plenty more than, say, carrots. They don't have value beyond that, though the value in potentia* is definitely not negligible.

*Check that. I used Latin.
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The Great Hippo
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Re: UAE fines mother over baby death

Postby The Great Hippo » Tue May 12, 2009 9:33 am UTC

michaelandjimi wrote:Well, yes. Fetuses have value inasmuch as they have the potential to turn into things with value - people. They certainly have a lot more value than unfertilised eggs, and plenty more than, say, carrots. They don't have value beyond that, though the value in potentia* is definitely not negligible.
I don't consider them valuable because they have the potential to become humans; I consider them valuable because they're a form of life, and doing nasty things to a form of life is a dick move. You don't stomp on puppies to satisfy your puppy-stomping urges; you don't mutilate fetuses because it's yours. Aborting fetuses is, to me, a lot like killing puppies - I value the right of puppies, but I value a woman's right to reject puppies that exist as parasitical organisms in their bodies a lot more.

The whole discussion of 'this is a potential person, therefore it's valuable!' always struck me as ridiculous. We don't claim that killing kittens is wrong because they're potentially cats. It's wrong because you value the kitten.

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netcrusher88
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Re: UAE fines mother over baby death

Postby netcrusher88 » Tue May 12, 2009 10:32 am UTC

I agree that a fetus has intrinsic value, with caveats. I think most people agree with that, but where we run into issues is when that is expanded to mean that a fetus has more value than a mother's life, which is where things like banning abortion and the kind of shit that sparked this thread come from.
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The Great Hippo
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Re: UAE fines mother over baby death

Postby The Great Hippo » Tue May 12, 2009 8:27 pm UTC

netcrusher88 wrote:I agree that a fetus has intrinsic value, with caveats. I think most people agree with that, but where we run into issues is when that is expanded to mean that a fetus has more value than a mother's life, which is where things like banning abortion and the kind of shit that sparked this thread come from.
Well, yeah. And the whole 'this unborn fetus is as valuable or more valuable than the mother's rights who is carrying it' stems from, I think, the notion that it's the potential of that fetus that's important. How else can you explain people frothing at the mouth over aborting a clump of cells that hasn't even developed a nervous system yet?

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Re: UAE fines mother over baby death

Postby iceberg » Tue May 12, 2009 8:38 pm UTC

The Great Hippo wrote:How else can you explain people frothing at the mouth over aborting a clump of cells that hasn't even developed a nervous system yet?


mad unborn-cow disease?
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