Dawkins backing summer camp for atheists

Seen something interesting in the news or on the intertubes? Discuss it here.

Moderators: Zamfir, Hawknc, Moderators General, Prelates

User avatar
RockoTDF
Posts: 582
Joined: Thu Oct 18, 2007 6:08 am UTC
Location: Tucson, AZ, US
Contact:

Dawkins backing summer camp for atheists

Postby RockoTDF » Thu Jul 02, 2009 9:34 pm UTC

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/commen ... 591236.ece

Seems interesting. The gut reaction of others I have spoken to seems to be that this will be an indoctrination, just like church camp.

I'm all for a summer camp that teaches kids about reason, skepticism, empiricism, etc. A lot of these lessons aren't brought up until college, and by then it can be too late. Having said this, most parents that would send their kids to this sort of camp would make sure those lessons are taught anyway.

Dawkins is rather dogmatic, having said this nothing in the article indicated that the camp itself was actually run by him (just a eye-catching title, and that he is a financial backer, which can't be a huge some of cash given that he is a professor and camps take a lot to run) or that the lessons would be anti-theistic or taught in the same manner as church camp.

The fact that the person who debunks the magic unicorn first gets a prize indicates to me that the camp puts independent thought and figuring out some of the lessons on your own up on a higher pedestal than church camp.
Just because it is not physics doesn't mean it is not science.
http://www.iomalfunction.blogspot.com <---- A collection of humorous one liners and science jokes.

User avatar
Izawwlgood
WINNING
Posts: 18686
Joined: Mon Nov 19, 2007 3:55 pm UTC
Location: There may be lovelier lovelies...

Re: Dawkins backing summer camp for atheists

Postby Izawwlgood » Thu Jul 02, 2009 10:02 pm UTC

Oh god, we should send one or two uber-religious folk and film a movie about Atheist camp, and how awful the indoctrination is.

I think this is a great idea. Although, it does sound a lot like space camp; Fucking awesome, but dorky as all hell (not a bad thing). Can't kids just enjoy their summers the old fashion way, with a crappy job, a bunch of partying, and meaningless romances?
... with gigantic melancholies and gigantic mirth, to tread the jeweled thrones of the Earth under his sandalled feet.

User avatar
athelas
A Sophisticated Plagiarism Engine
Posts: 584
Joined: Sat Oct 21, 2006 2:37 am UTC

Re: Dawkins backing summer camp for atheists

Postby athelas » Thu Jul 02, 2009 11:36 pm UTC

It almost certainly will not be about the kids, but rather about getting publicity about their ideology.

User avatar
Jahoclave
sourmilk's moderator
Posts: 4790
Joined: Thu Oct 25, 2007 8:34 pm UTC
Contact:

Re: Dawkins backing summer camp for atheists

Postby Jahoclave » Thu Jul 02, 2009 11:37 pm UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:Oh god, we should send one or two uber-religious folk and film a movie about Atheist camp, and how awful the indoctrination is.

I think this is a great idea. Although, it does sound a lot like space camp; Fucking awesome, but dorky as all hell (not a bad thing). Can't kids just enjoy their summers the old fashion way, with a crappy job, a bunch of partying, and meaningless romances?

Turns out what the camp really does is teach them how to survive the zombie apocalypse. And hey, some people like camping. But no, nobody can ever come up with a camping camp that isn't about some ideological concept.

To be honest, what the world really needs is a version of the Boy Scouts but without the fucking right-wing religious bullshit attached.

sje46
Posts: 4730
Joined: Wed May 14, 2008 4:41 am UTC
Location: New Hampshire

Re: Dawkins backing summer camp for atheists

Postby sje46 » Thu Jul 02, 2009 11:44 pm UTC

athelas wrote:It almost certainly will not be about the kids, but rather about getting publicity about their ideology.

Their ideology of. . .lack of belief in something? Thinking criticially? As long as they're not telling them there definitely isn't a God, I'm fine with it.
General_Norris: Taking pride in your nation is taking pride in the division of humanity.
Pirate.Bondage: Let's get married. Right now.

User avatar
TheAmazingRando
Posts: 2308
Joined: Thu Jan 03, 2008 9:58 am UTC
Location: San Diego, CA

Re: Dawkins backing summer camp for atheists

Postby TheAmazingRando » Fri Jul 03, 2009 12:03 am UTC

I've been to church camps before, and they're definitely not all as indoctrinating/zealous as the one in Jesus Camp. It was just like a summer camp with church services as night, usually of the broad and not particularly dogmatic variety. The kinds with messages like "work hardest at whatever you do" and a few bible verses quoted to support that. I've known non-Christians who have gone to these camps and had a good time, it was not an oppressive atmosphere.

I have trouble seeing exactly how this could be adopted to something like atheism, because it isn't like there are universal atheist values. I don't see how a camp that teaches rationalism, empiricism, and skepticism is necessarily atheist. It just sounds like a good, non-religiously-associated camp to me.

User avatar
aleflamedyud
wants your cookies
Posts: 3307
Joined: Tue Oct 09, 2007 7:50 pm UTC
Location: The Central Bureaucracy

Re: Dawkins backing summer camp for atheists

Postby aleflamedyud » Fri Jul 03, 2009 12:24 am UTC

TheAmazingRando wrote:I've been to church camps before, and they're definitely not all as indoctrinating/zealous as the one in Jesus Camp. It was just like a summer camp with church services as night, usually of the broad and not particularly dogmatic variety. The kinds with messages like "work hardest at whatever you do" and a few bible verses quoted to support that. I've known non-Christians who have gone to these camps and had a good time, it was not an oppressive atmosphere.

Yeah, I've been to the same thing but for Jews. Religious summer camp is still basically summer camp.

I have trouble seeing exactly how this could be adopted to something like atheism, because it isn't like there are universal atheist values. I don't see how a camp that teaches rationalism, empiricism, and skepticism is necessarily atheist. It just sounds like a good, non-religiously-associated camp to me.

Yeah, I thought atheism wasn't just another religion because it was defined by a lack of belief rather than common beliefs and values that could be inculcated into children!

OK, seriously, I see no valid reason to stop something like this opening, but I also see no good reason for it to open. Logic and empiricism are for the science classroom, no kid I've ever met wants to go to camp so they can debunk purely philosophical hypotheses. Dawkins would do more good for the world by closing this bullshit down (seriously, what do you teach in atheist camp?) and opening a science camp that'll teach the scientific method and let kids blow things up regardless of their religious views or lack thereof. Still, if he wants to do something this retarded, I've no grounds to stop him.
"With kindness comes naïveté. Courage becomes foolhardiness. And dedication has no reward. If you can't accept any of that, you are not fit to be a graduate student."

User avatar
Indon
Posts: 4433
Joined: Thu Oct 18, 2007 5:21 pm UTC
Location: Alabama :(
Contact:

Re: Dawkins backing summer camp for atheists

Postby Indon » Fri Jul 03, 2009 2:17 am UTC

Ah, Dawkins. Putting the 'militant' in militant atheism, practically singlehandedly.
So, I like talking. So if you want to talk about something with me, feel free to send me a PM.

My blog, now rarely updated.

Image

User avatar
Durandal
Posts: 659
Joined: Thu Nov 08, 2007 12:12 am UTC

Re: Dawkins backing summer camp for atheists

Postby Durandal » Fri Jul 03, 2009 3:44 am UTC

Ugh. Atheists generally ignore me more than most people who subscribe to religious beliefs.

Why does it have to be 'atheist camp'? Why can't it just be 'camp'?

This will just set those kids up to be intolerant and condescending to their religious peers in school, and hasten their development of a superiority complex.

User avatar
TheGrammarBolshevik
Posts: 4878
Joined: Mon Jun 30, 2008 2:12 am UTC
Location: Going to and fro in the earth, and walking up and down in it.

Re: Dawkins backing summer camp for atheists

Postby TheGrammarBolshevik » Fri Jul 03, 2009 3:59 am UTC

Durandal wrote:Ugh. Atheists generally ignore me more than most people who subscribe to religious beliefs.


Who does that leave who listens to you?
Nothing rhymes with orange,
Not even sporange.

User avatar
Durandal
Posts: 659
Joined: Thu Nov 08, 2007 12:12 am UTC

Re: Dawkins backing summer camp for atheists

Postby Durandal » Fri Jul 03, 2009 4:02 am UTC

People who honestly don't give a damn either way and think everyone should just chill the fuck out.
Last edited by Durandal on Fri Jul 03, 2009 4:02 am UTC, edited 1 time in total.

sje46
Posts: 4730
Joined: Wed May 14, 2008 4:41 am UTC
Location: New Hampshire

Re: Dawkins backing summer camp for atheists

Postby sje46 » Fri Jul 03, 2009 4:02 am UTC

Who said it's an atheism camp? The article did, but should we believe it? Obviously Dawkins wants people to be atheist, but he has made it very clear that he doesn't want to indoctrinate kids. He would be very hypocritical if he told these children blankly "There is no God."
I take it that he wants it to be a place where he encourages children to learn how to think in a way that rejects irrationality, and thus rejecting religion. It would probably be more of a science camp with heavy focus on rational thought and philosophy, which I think is cool if they don't abuse it.

I highly doubt they will be singing "Imagine".
General_Norris: Taking pride in your nation is taking pride in the division of humanity.
Pirate.Bondage: Let's get married. Right now.

Soralin
Posts: 1347
Joined: Wed May 07, 2008 12:06 am UTC

Re: Dawkins backing summer camp for atheists

Postby Soralin » Fri Jul 03, 2009 5:15 am UTC

Durandal wrote:People who honestly don't give a damn either way and think everyone should just chill the fuck out.

So, Apatheists?

User avatar
Durandal
Posts: 659
Joined: Thu Nov 08, 2007 12:12 am UTC

Re: Dawkins backing summer camp for atheists

Postby Durandal » Fri Jul 03, 2009 5:30 am UTC

Hmmm, interesting. I suppose that would accurately describe me. Thanks.

User avatar
SlyReaper
inflatable
Posts: 8015
Joined: Mon Dec 31, 2007 11:09 pm UTC
Location: Bristol, Old Blighty

Re: Dawkins backing summer camp for atheists

Postby SlyReaper » Fri Jul 03, 2009 9:06 am UTC

Hehehehe there are so many lables for whatever kind of belief you have. It's getting really hard to be original these days.
Image
What would Baron Harkonnen do?

icanus
Posts: 478
Joined: Mon Aug 13, 2007 1:19 pm UTC
Location: in England now abed

Re: Dawkins backing summer camp for atheists

Postby icanus » Fri Jul 03, 2009 9:28 am UTC


User avatar
SlyReaper
inflatable
Posts: 8015
Joined: Mon Dec 31, 2007 11:09 pm UTC
Location: Bristol, Old Blighty

Re: Dawkins backing summer camp for atheists

Postby SlyReaper » Fri Jul 03, 2009 10:00 am UTC

icanus wrote:The camp's response to the Times article.

So according to that, pretty much everything the Times wrote was a lie? Don't you just love news media? :lol:
Image
What would Baron Harkonnen do?

General_Norris
Posts: 1399
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2009 12:10 pm UTC

Re: Dawkins backing summer camp for atheists

Postby General_Norris » Fri Jul 03, 2009 11:55 am UTC

icanus wrote:The camp's response to the Times article.


Lol, it just a normal camp.

sje46
Posts: 4730
Joined: Wed May 14, 2008 4:41 am UTC
Location: New Hampshire

Re: Dawkins backing summer camp for atheists

Postby sje46 » Fri Jul 03, 2009 1:57 pm UTC

icanus wrote:The camp's response to the Times article.

See? Sometimes being skeptical is the right thing to be.
General_Norris: Taking pride in your nation is taking pride in the division of humanity.
Pirate.Bondage: Let's get married. Right now.

User avatar
Indon
Posts: 4433
Joined: Thu Oct 18, 2007 5:21 pm UTC
Location: Alabama :(
Contact:

Re: Dawkins backing summer camp for atheists

Postby Indon » Fri Jul 03, 2009 3:11 pm UTC

Skepticism indeed.

Of course, now the question is about where the PR of the situation ends and reality begins. Are religious groups exploiting Dawkins' reputation to their advantage, or is the camp just making a standard PR line?

Religious organizations tend to make out well in he-said-she-said situations, so this whole debacle probably works out in the favor of religious camps regardless.

Also:

The camp people wrote:Camp Quest is not designed to rival “faith‐based breaks”. It is peerless and has no rivals.


I saw what they did there.
So, I like talking. So if you want to talk about something with me, feel free to send me a PM.

My blog, now rarely updated.

Image

icanus
Posts: 478
Joined: Mon Aug 13, 2007 1:19 pm UTC
Location: in England now abed

Re: Dawkins backing summer camp for atheists

Postby icanus » Fri Jul 03, 2009 4:17 pm UTC

Seems pretty clear to me
- The organisation's been running in America for ~15 years,
- they decided to expand into the UK
- Dawkins liked the idea and donated some money
- the newspapers got hold of it and wrote stories about "MILITANT* ATHEIST DAWKINS WANTS TO SEND YOUR CHILDRENS TO ATHEIST CAMPS!!1!ONE (AND WHILE WE'RE AT IT, LET'S USE THE WORD 'GROOM' TO GET PEOPLE TO SUBCONSCIOUSLY EQUATE ATHEISTS WITH PAEDOPHILES)"

*<sarcasm> He is pretty militant. I mean, he's written several books and said that he thinks religion is, on balance, unlikely to be true. This sort of thing is exactly the same as the sort of behaviour that gets people labelled as militant for any opinion except atheism, like blowing shit up and shooting people. If anything, it's probably worse. </sarcasm>

Treating religious opinions as a valid target for criticism - just like opinions about politics, economics, sports teams, favourite TV shows, or pretty much anything else - does not a militant make.

- edited for the SarChasm. My keyboard seems to be broken - it can only do one tone of voice.
Last edited by icanus on Fri Jul 03, 2009 4:47 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.

sje46
Posts: 4730
Joined: Wed May 14, 2008 4:41 am UTC
Location: New Hampshire

Re: Dawkins backing summer camp for atheists

Postby sje46 » Fri Jul 03, 2009 4:42 pm UTC

I'm confused by that last post. Is he militant or not?
IF I treat that asterisked material as sarcasm, them I pretty much 100% agree with you.

I'm just unsure is all. :)

EDIT: 100 is more than 10
Last edited by sje46 on Fri Jul 03, 2009 5:24 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.
General_Norris: Taking pride in your nation is taking pride in the division of humanity.
Pirate.Bondage: Let's get married. Right now.

User avatar
Cryopyre
Posts: 701
Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2007 4:00 am UTC
Location: A desert

Re: Dawkins backing summer camp for atheists

Postby Cryopyre » Fri Jul 03, 2009 5:17 pm UTC

I really like the idea of a camp with no religious ties. I mean, seriously, we can't have a secular boyscouts.
Felstaff wrote:I actually see what religion is to social, economical and perhaps political progress in a similar way to what war is to technological progress.

Gunfingers wrote:Voting is the power to speak your mind. You, apparently, had nothing to say.

icanus
Posts: 478
Joined: Mon Aug 13, 2007 1:19 pm UTC
Location: in England now abed

Re: Dawkins backing summer camp for atheists

Postby icanus » Fri Jul 03, 2009 5:18 pm UTC

Edited for clarity. I fail at communication, it seems :oops:

It just gets on my thungas that to be a militant *anything*, you pretty much have to at minimum get in fights with the police at protests, throw paint over people in fur coats, cause widespread disruption by scaling public buildings dressed as superheroes, or otherwise take extreme actions.

Except militant atheists - for them writing some books and going on the lecture circuit apparently makes them militant.

Falling
Posts: 175
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2008 4:30 pm UTC

Re: Dawkins backing summer camp for atheists

Postby Falling » Fri Jul 03, 2009 6:37 pm UTC

icanus wrote:Edited for clarity. I fail at communication, it seems :oops:

It just gets on my thungas that to be a militant *anything*, you pretty much have to at minimum get in fights with the police at protests, throw paint over people in fur coats, cause widespread disruption by scaling public buildings dressed as superheroes, or otherwise take extreme actions.

Except militant atheists - for them writing some books and going on the lecture circuit apparently makes them militant.


Totally true except for vegans. We're militant before even opening our mouths. It seems the less accepted an idea is, the easier it is to be considered "militant."

User avatar
Indon
Posts: 4433
Joined: Thu Oct 18, 2007 5:21 pm UTC
Location: Alabama :(
Contact:

Re: Dawkins backing summer camp for atheists

Postby Indon » Fri Jul 03, 2009 6:45 pm UTC

icanus wrote:Except militant atheists - for them writing some books and going on the lecture circuit apparently makes them militant.


I'd call it a standards issue - since atheism doesn't actually involve doing anything, and in fact tends to not involve doing things, actually doing anything as the result of atheism makes you an extremely active atheist indeed.
So, I like talking. So if you want to talk about something with me, feel free to send me a PM.

My blog, now rarely updated.

Image

The Reaper
Posts: 4008
Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2007 5:37 am UTC
Location: San Antonio, Tx
Contact:

Re: Dawkins backing summer camp for atheists

Postby The Reaper » Fri Jul 03, 2009 6:50 pm UTC

Falling wrote:
icanus wrote:Edited for clarity. I fail at communication, it seems :oops:

It just gets on my thungas that to be a militant *anything*, you pretty much have to at minimum get in fights with the police at protests, throw paint over people in fur coats, cause widespread disruption by scaling public buildings dressed as superheroes, or otherwise take extreme actions.

Except militant atheists - for them writing some books and going on the lecture circuit apparently makes them militant.


Totally true except for vegans. We're militant before even opening our mouths. It seems the less accepted an idea is, the easier it is to be considered "militant."

Out of curiousity, are there places that serve both meat dishes AND vegan dishes?

All someone has to do to be militant is to confront someone else's extreme beliefs with a belief that's not theirs. On the extremes, the very existence of atheism is militant to religion, and vice versa.

icanus
Posts: 478
Joined: Mon Aug 13, 2007 1:19 pm UTC
Location: in England now abed

Re: Dawkins backing summer camp for atheists

Postby icanus » Fri Jul 03, 2009 7:42 pm UTC

The Reaper wrote:Out of curiousity, are there places that serve both meat dishes AND vegan dishes?
According to this thread, yes, more than actually admit to it :(

The Reaper wrote:All someone has to do to be militant is to confront someone else's extreme beliefs with a belief that's not theirs. On the extremes, the very existence of atheism is militant to religion, and vice versa.
It only seems to go one way - I've yet to see any atheists calling weddings-christenings-and-funerals-only churchgoers "militant christians", even if they say "god bless you" when we sneeze - we reserve that for the people bombing abortion clinics and similar. "Vocal", "Outspoken", even "Activist" atheist I have no problem with, but "militant" has a definite and unjustified implication of violent action to my ears.

Anyone slinging bricks through stained glass windows, roughing up members of a congregation in the parking lot, or encouraging others to do so, I'd have no problem condemning as militant. But just talking about religion without bending over backwards to find something nice to say shouldn't qualify.

"You're wrong, there is no God" != militant
"You're wrong, there is no God, and I'll kick you in the throat if you say otherwise" = militant

The Reaper
Posts: 4008
Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2007 5:37 am UTC
Location: San Antonio, Tx
Contact:

Re: Dawkins backing summer camp for atheists

Postby The Reaper » Fri Jul 03, 2009 8:13 pm UTC

icanus wrote:
The Reaper wrote:Out of curiousity, are there places that serve both meat dishes AND vegan dishes?
According to this thread, yes, more than actually admit to it :(

I meant on purpose. Like is there a place I can take a vegan friend and I still be able to get myself a nice steak, and they still be able to get a nice (whatevertheyeat)? I don't have any vegan friends, but that's just because I've yet to meet any vegans around here that aren't uppity pricks about the fact they're uppity pricks. I assume eventually I'll meet some agreeable ones, and I just wont be able to cook for them because all of my dishes use milk, eggs, butter, or meat, in some way or another....

User avatar
natraj
Posts: 1895
Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2007 10:13 pm UTC
Location: away from Omelas

Re: Dawkins backing summer camp for atheists

Postby natraj » Fri Jul 03, 2009 8:39 pm UTC

The Reaper wrote:
icanus wrote:
The Reaper wrote:Out of curiousity, are there places that serve both meat dishes AND vegan dishes?
According to this thread, yes, more than actually admit to it :(

I meant on purpose. Like is there a place I can take a vegan friend and I still be able to get myself a nice steak, and they still be able to get a nice (whatevertheyeat)? I don't have any vegan friends, but that's just because I've yet to meet any vegans around here that aren't uppity pricks about the fact they're uppity pricks. I assume eventually I'll meet some agreeable ones, and I just wont be able to cook for them because all of my dishes use milk, eggs, butter, or meat, in some way or another....


... I have no idea how on earth this is on topic, but, uh, yeah. I go out to eat with nonveg*n friends all the time and we both eat happily.
You want to know the future, love? Then wait:
I'll answer your impatient questions. Still --
They'll call it chance, or luck, or call it Fate,
The cards and stars that tumble as they will.

pronouns: they or he

User avatar
Freakish
Posts: 909
Joined: Tue Dec 18, 2007 1:47 am UTC
Location: Northern Ontario, Canada
Contact:

Re: Dawkins backing summer camp for atheists

Postby Freakish » Fri Jul 03, 2009 8:49 pm UTC

icanus wrote:Anyone shiting bricks through stained glass windows

How I read it.
Freakish Inc. We completely understand the public’s concern about futuristic robots feeding on the human population

icanus
Posts: 478
Joined: Mon Aug 13, 2007 1:19 pm UTC
Location: in England now abed

Re: Dawkins backing summer camp for atheists

Postby icanus » Fri Jul 03, 2009 9:01 pm UTC

Freakish wrote:
icanus wrote:Anyone shiting bricks through stained glass windows
How I read it.

Militant Atheism: when you see it...

Falling
Posts: 175
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2008 4:30 pm UTC

Re: Dawkins backing summer camp for atheists

Postby Falling » Fri Jul 03, 2009 9:10 pm UTC

icanus wrote:"You're wrong, there is no God" != militant
"You're wrong, there is no God, and I'll kick you in the throat if you say otherwise" = militant



That's the way it should be, but it seems most people equate intolerance (of any degree) with militancy.
So:
"I believe there is no God, but your beliefs are just as valid" = okay
"You're wrong, there is no God" = militant

Reaper:
Spoiler:
The Reaper wrote:I meant on purpose. Like is there a place I can take a vegan friend and I still be able to get myself a nice steak, and they still be able to get a nice (whatevertheyeat)? I don't have any vegan friends, but that's just because I've yet to meet any vegans around here that aren't uppity pricks about the fact they're uppity pricks. I assume eventually I'll meet some agreeable ones, and I just wont be able to cook for them because all of my dishes use milk, eggs, butter, or meat, in some way or another....

There really are only a few 'regular' places that go out of their way to serve explicitly vegan dishes. Usually, it's just whatever normally happens to be vegan. One alternative though is to just go with them to a vegan/vegetarian place and I'm sure you'd be pleasantly surprised.

User avatar
fjafjan
THE fjafjan
Posts: 4766
Joined: Fri Oct 06, 2006 12:22 pm UTC
Location: Down south up north in the west of eastern west.
Contact:

Re: Dawkins backing summer camp for atheists

Postby fjafjan » Sat Jul 04, 2009 11:09 am UTC

Yeah I've been to a camp like this. Not sure if other cultures have there, but here confirmation is a really common thing, and it used to be christian. Since my dad is more of an atheist than most Swedish people, he found that the Swedish Humanists arranged a secular confirmation camp. We talked about god (non-specific, does he/she exist etc), the general future, morals, feminism, etc etc The camp leaders were great, open minded but critical. Was a great deal of fun, untill I during a water fight I smashed my glass pot on a guys metal pot and his lower arm got cut up.
So yeah, not really a new idea, but it's a good idea and maybe Britain didn't have it before now.

(what annoys me is when a Swedish newspaper run it as a big story that we are "copying a norwegian idea about a secular confirmation camp!" when I attended one six years ago that was hardly the first of its kind (my sister attended another not first one nine years ago).
//Yepp, THE fjafjan (who's THE fjafjan?)
Liza wrote:Fjafjan, your hair is so lovely that I want to go to Sweden, collect the bit you cut off in your latest haircut and keep it in my room, and smell it. And eventually use it to complete my shrine dedicated to you.

User avatar
Diadem
Posts: 5654
Joined: Wed Jun 11, 2008 11:03 am UTC
Location: The Netherlands

Re: Dawkins backing summer camp for atheists

Postby Diadem » Sun Jul 05, 2009 3:41 am UTC

Falling wrote:
icanus wrote:"You're wrong, there is no God" != militant
"You're wrong, there is no God, and I'll kick you in the throat if you say otherwise" = militant



That's the way it should be, but it seems most people equate intolerance (of any degree) with militancy.
So:
"I believe there is no God, but your beliefs are just as valid" = okay
"You're wrong, there is no God" = militant

But, ehm, that's not intolerant. That's just non-relativist.

Intolerant would be
"There is no god"
"Yes there is"
* Puts gun against head an pulls trigger * "You're wrong"
It's one of those irregular verbs, isn't it? I have an independent mind, you are an eccentric, he is round the twist
- Bernard Woolley in Yes, Prime Minister

User avatar
the tree
Posts: 801
Joined: Mon Apr 02, 2007 6:23 pm UTC
Location: Behind you

Re: Dawkins backing summer camp for atheists

Postby the tree » Sun Jul 05, 2009 12:25 pm UTC

<semantics>I'm pretty sure intolerant doesn't need to be violent per se.

"I belive X"
"Well then I think you're a dick, and I'm going to write to the local newspaper saying so, make some hate groups on Facebook, petition for your children to be removed from the local schools and shout 'hey look, it's that dick who believes X, what a dick' every time I see you about town."

^ would fall under most people's definition of intolerant, I think.</semantics>

fjafjan, what do you mean by confirmation if it isn't a religious thing? The only time I've heard of confirmations is as a sort of coming of age thing that is basically a baptism for people who have already been christened. There's a whole load of ceremony about it and if it weren't a religious ritual, it wouldn't have much of a point.

User avatar
fjafjan
THE fjafjan
Posts: 4766
Joined: Fri Oct 06, 2006 12:22 pm UTC
Location: Down south up north in the west of eastern west.
Contact:

Re: Dawkins backing summer camp for atheists

Postby fjafjan » Sun Jul 05, 2009 12:36 pm UTC

the tree wrote:fjafjan, what do you mean by confirmation if it isn't a religious thing? The only time I've heard of confirmations is as a sort of coming of age thing that is basically a baptism for people who have already been christened. There's a whole load of ceremony about it and if it weren't a religious ritual, it wouldn't have much of a point.


Well over here it's pretty much everyone does, and while it used to be mainly a religious ceremony, over the years it's much more of a mix now. People talk about meaning of life, right and wrong, etc etc, but since it's an old religious thing there's also stuff like prayer, talking about the bible etc and religious people are the "leaders".

So remove the bits about the bible and prayer, and you still talk about lot of the important questions that you havn't really thought about untill you're 13-14, and talk about those moderated by smart people. And of course have fun, watch movies, tickle fights etc etc.
//Yepp, THE fjafjan (who's THE fjafjan?)
Liza wrote:Fjafjan, your hair is so lovely that I want to go to Sweden, collect the bit you cut off in your latest haircut and keep it in my room, and smell it. And eventually use it to complete my shrine dedicated to you.

User avatar
ian
Posts: 706
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 3:55 pm UTC
Location: Sealand

Re: Dawkins backing summer camp for atheists

Postby ian » Sun Jul 05, 2009 1:34 pm UTC

science camp > atheist camp.


which on reading about, seems more what it is, with a bit of philosophy chucked in

User avatar
Diadem
Posts: 5654
Joined: Wed Jun 11, 2008 11:03 am UTC
Location: The Netherlands

Re: Dawkins backing summer camp for atheists

Postby Diadem » Sun Jul 05, 2009 1:38 pm UTC

the tree wrote:<semantics>I'm pretty sure intolerant doesn't need to be violent per se.

Yeah that's true. My example was meant as illustrative rather than exhaustive :)
It's one of those irregular verbs, isn't it? I have an independent mind, you are an eccentric, he is round the twist
- Bernard Woolley in Yes, Prime Minister

User avatar
aleflamedyud
wants your cookies
Posts: 3307
Joined: Tue Oct 09, 2007 7:50 pm UTC
Location: The Central Bureaucracy

Re: Dawkins backing summer camp for atheists

Postby aleflamedyud » Sun Jul 05, 2009 6:10 pm UTC

fjafjan wrote:
the tree wrote:fjafjan, what do you mean by confirmation if it isn't a religious thing? The only time I've heard of confirmations is as a sort of coming of age thing that is basically a baptism for people who have already been christened. There's a whole load of ceremony about it and if it weren't a religious ritual, it wouldn't have much of a point.


Well over here it's pretty much everyone does, and while it used to be mainly a religious ceremony, over the years it's much more of a mix now. People talk about meaning of life, right and wrong, etc etc, but since it's an old religious thing there's also stuff like prayer, talking about the bible etc and religious people are the "leaders".

So remove the bits about the bible and prayer, and you still talk about lot of the important questions that you havn't really thought about untill you're 13-14, and talk about those moderated by smart people. And of course have fun, watch movies, tickle fights etc etc.

Please tell me you get a big party.
"With kindness comes naïveté. Courage becomes foolhardiness. And dedication has no reward. If you can't accept any of that, you are not fit to be a graduate student."


Return to “News & Articles”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: addams, sardia and 20 guests