Woman Uses Right to Defend herself, pain ensues

Seen something interesting in the news or on the intertubes? Discuss it here.

Moderators: Zamfir, Hawknc, Moderators General, Prelates

User avatar
Izawwlgood
WINNING
Posts: 18686
Joined: Mon Nov 19, 2007 3:55 pm UTC
Location: There may be lovelier lovelies...

Woman Uses Right to Defend herself, pain ensues

Postby Izawwlgood » Fri Aug 07, 2009 4:09 pm UTC

Deserving but painful ouch can be found here.

I'm left thinking this guy absolutely deserved it, and I hope despite his likely drunkenness, she is found innocent of any charges.

Lesson to people at large: Don't be an ass.
... with gigantic melancholies and gigantic mirth, to tread the jeweled thrones of the Earth under his sandalled feet.

i
Posts: 227
Joined: Sat Jan 13, 2007 11:31 pm UTC

Re: Woman Uses Right to Defend herself, pain ensues

Postby i » Fri Aug 07, 2009 4:20 pm UTC

hehe.... Greek Fire.

User avatar
SpeZek
Posts: 7
Joined: Tue Jul 07, 2009 1:19 pm UTC
Location: Winnipeg, Canada
Contact:

Re: Woman Uses Right to Defend herself, pain ensues

Postby SpeZek » Fri Aug 07, 2009 4:49 pm UTC

There's a big difference between self defense (i.e. getting yourself out of the situation using force) and mutilation.

If he was merely blocking her way out of the bar, the appropriate response might be to push him or disable him somehow, not light him on fire.

User avatar
SecondTalon
SexyTalon
Posts: 26531
Joined: Sat May 05, 2007 2:10 pm UTC
Location: Louisville, Kentucky, USA, Mars. HA!
Contact:

Re: Woman Uses Right to Defend herself, pain ensues

Postby SecondTalon » Fri Aug 07, 2009 5:10 pm UTC

It alleged the Briton took down his trousers and started waving his genitals at a number of girls. He then specifically "forcefully fondled" the 26-year old Greek woman, asking her to take hold of his genitals.
After asking him to stop harassing her, the police said, she poured the alcoholic drink Sabucco on his genitals (an Italian brand type of Greek ouzo or French Pernod drink).
This again allegedly failed to stop his advances, so the woman seized a lighter and set fire to the alcohol-drenched genitals, local press reports said.

...

Yeah, I'm cool with it.
heuristically_alone wrote:I want to write a DnD campaign and play it by myself and DM it myself.
heuristically_alone wrote:I have been informed that this is called writing a book.

User avatar
sophyturtle
I'll go put my shirt back on for this kind of shock. No I won't. I'll get my purse.
Posts: 3476
Joined: Thu Mar 20, 2008 4:19 pm UTC
Location: it's turtles all the way down, even in the suburbs
Contact:

Re: Woman Uses Right to Defend herself, pain ensues

Postby sophyturtle » Fri Aug 07, 2009 5:17 pm UTC

He is lucky she did not cut them off. I hope she can successfully press charges against him for the sexual assault.
I want to get to a place where I am neither conforming nor rebelling but simply being.

Heisenberg
Posts: 3789
Joined: Wed May 14, 2008 8:48 pm UTC
Location: Uncertain

Re: Woman Uses Right to Defend herself, pain ensues

Postby Heisenberg » Fri Aug 07, 2009 5:20 pm UTC

sophyturtle wrote:He is lucky she did not cut them off.

I don't know, it probably wouldn't have hurt as much. 2nd degree burns are painful.

User avatar
Belial
A terrible sound heard from a distance
Posts: 30450
Joined: Sat Apr 15, 2006 4:04 am UTC
Contact:

Re: Woman Uses Right to Defend herself, pain ensues

Postby Belial » Fri Aug 07, 2009 5:21 pm UTC

SpeZek wrote:There's a big difference between self defense (i.e. getting yourself out of the situation using force) and mutilation.

If he was merely blocking her way out of the bar, the appropriate response might be to push him or disable him somehow, not light him on fire.


He wasn't merely blocking her way out, he was sexually assaulting and threatening her.

TOTALLY JUSTIFIED, A+, WOULD COMBUST AGAIN.
addams wrote:A drunk neighbor is better than a sober Belial.


They/them

User avatar
Jessica
Jessica, you're a ...
Posts: 8337
Joined: Tue Oct 23, 2007 8:57 pm UTC
Location: Soviet Canuckistan

Re: Woman Uses Right to Defend herself, pain ensues

Postby Jessica » Fri Aug 07, 2009 5:21 pm UTC

I hope she can as well.

Also, yes, justified completely.
doogly wrote:On a scale of Mr Rogers to Fascism, how mean do you think we're being?
Belial wrote:My goal is to be the best brain infection any of you have ever had.

Heisenberg
Posts: 3789
Joined: Wed May 14, 2008 8:48 pm UTC
Location: Uncertain

Re: Woman Uses Right to Defend herself, pain ensues

Postby Heisenberg » Fri Aug 07, 2009 5:28 pm UTC

This reminds me of the pizza guy self-defense thread. Sure, in retrospect, she probably could've achieved the same end with a less-damaging swift kick, but when you're being molested by scary drunk guy, you go ahead and do what you need to do to get out of that situation.

We're all assuming that her side of the story is correct, but I imagine there were witnesses, and they'll each have their day in court.

User avatar
Tractor
Posts: 2467
Joined: Mon Jan 08, 2007 6:17 pm UTC
Location: no

Re: Woman Uses Right to Defend herself, pain ensues

Postby Tractor » Fri Aug 07, 2009 5:29 pm UTC

Belial wrote:
SpeZek wrote:There's a big difference between self defense (i.e. getting yourself out of the situation using force) and mutilation.

If he was merely blocking her way out of the bar, the appropriate response might be to push him or disable him somehow, not light him on fire.


He wasn't merely blocking her way out, he was sexually assaulting and threatening her.

TOTALLY JUSTIFIED, A+, WOULD COMBUST AGAIN.

Whatever happened to getting authorities involved? Or even moderate force on her part? If your second response to that is to *set someone on fire* you may have some issues.
9 x 6 = 42

Note: Randall kicks ass.

Bright Shadows
Posts: 645
Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2008 2:56 pm UTC

Re: Woman Uses Right to Defend herself, pain ensues

Postby Bright Shadows » Fri Aug 07, 2009 5:29 pm UTC

<_<
A simple knee would have sufficed, I think. Drunk or not, guys do not get up so quickly after taking any kind of hurt to their balls.
Lighting the man's groin on fire was probably just the thing that came to mind at the time to get him away, and I can understand that, though. Time was of the essence.

Preview Ninja'd by Heisenburg, posted anyway.
Image

User avatar
sophyturtle
I'll go put my shirt back on for this kind of shock. No I won't. I'll get my purse.
Posts: 3476
Joined: Thu Mar 20, 2008 4:19 pm UTC
Location: it's turtles all the way down, even in the suburbs
Contact:

Re: Woman Uses Right to Defend herself, pain ensues

Postby sophyturtle » Fri Aug 07, 2009 5:34 pm UTC

My guess is that since he was forcing himself at her, and his genitals were exposed and at a good height to cover in alcohol it might be hard to just kick. He was harassing her and other women, meaning no on was coming to help them.

When a lady asks you to stop groping her, and does a minor assault like throwing a drink and you keep going, what do you expect?
Why are we not more outraged that some guy was assaulting women and exposing themselves in a crowded place? Just wait til he followed her outside. I am sure he would become a real gentlemen then.

Yes, some of us are upset by this but really, public exposure and sexual assault are not allowed to have significant consequences? Sure, he has some physical damage. But he was showing no signs of stopping. And if she did not stop him, well, I really don;t want to think about it.
I want to get to a place where I am neither conforming nor rebelling but simply being.

User avatar
Feddlefew
Posts: 258
Joined: Wed Jun 17, 2009 1:47 pm UTC

Re: Woman Uses Right to Defend herself, pain ensues

Postby Feddlefew » Fri Aug 07, 2009 5:37 pm UTC

I feel bad.

The first thought that crossed my mind after reading that was "Score: Darwin 1, Creep 0.".

Does this make me a bad person?

-------

On a more serious note, agree with the general sentiment of this thread thus far. She had a right to defend herself, and when you're being harassed like that, you're going to do whatever it takes to make it stop.
My spelling is abysmal. Just saying.

Bright Shadows
Posts: 645
Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2008 2:56 pm UTC

Re: Woman Uses Right to Defend herself, pain ensues

Postby Bright Shadows » Fri Aug 07, 2009 5:44 pm UTC

sophyturtle wrote:My guess is that since he was forcing himself at her, and his genitals were exposed and at a good height to cover in alcohol it might be hard to just kick. He was harassing her and other women, meaning no on was coming to help them.

When a lady asks you to stop groping her, and does a minor assault like throwing a drink and you keep going, what do you expect?
Why are we not more outraged that some guy was assaulting women and exposing themselves in a crowded place? Just wait til he followed her outside. I am sure he would become a real gentlemen then.

Yes, some of us are upset by this but really, public exposure and sexual assault are not allowed to have significant consequences? Sure, he has some physical damage. But he was showing no signs of stopping. And if she did not stop him, well, I really don;t want to think about it.


Ah, right, so he was probably standing on something when he was hit with the alcohol.
Punching is probably just as effective. It doesn't take much. But I'm not opposed to what she did as it was a time sensitive matter and the solution she thought of was probably the first thought and effective enough.

<_<
Your idea of escalation of the situation seems a bit... presumptive, though I'm not saying it couldn't have turned out as you are implying.
Why are you assuming the situation would escalate though?
Image

User avatar
natraj
Posts: 1895
Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2007 10:13 pm UTC
Location: away from Omelas

Re: Woman Uses Right to Defend herself, pain ensues

Postby natraj » Fri Aug 07, 2009 5:49 pm UTC

So, uh, the woman should have waited till after he assaulted her even more than forcibly groping to do anything to fight back?

So then a hoard of people could be like dude, he was groping you and waving his dick at you, why didn't you do something before he raped you?
You want to know the future, love? Then wait:
I'll answer your impatient questions. Still --
They'll call it chance, or luck, or call it Fate,
The cards and stars that tumble as they will.

pronouns: they or he

User avatar
sophyturtle
I'll go put my shirt back on for this kind of shock. No I won't. I'll get my purse.
Posts: 3476
Joined: Thu Mar 20, 2008 4:19 pm UTC
Location: it's turtles all the way down, even in the suburbs
Contact:

Re: Woman Uses Right to Defend herself, pain ensues

Postby sophyturtle » Fri Aug 07, 2009 5:51 pm UTC

Because it did. He started being a jerk, then he harassed people, then he assaulted people.
You really think after trying to force her to do something once, and having nothing as of yet deter him he would just get bored and stop?
I want to get to a place where I am neither conforming nor rebelling but simply being.

User avatar
Belial
A terrible sound heard from a distance
Posts: 30450
Joined: Sat Apr 15, 2006 4:04 am UTC
Contact:

Re: Woman Uses Right to Defend herself, pain ensues

Postby Belial » Fri Aug 07, 2009 5:52 pm UTC

"He was just coming at you with a knife, looking menacing. Why would you just assume he was going to stab you? You should've waited until he actually thrusted before you defended yourself."
addams wrote:A drunk neighbor is better than a sober Belial.


They/them

User avatar
PhoenixRider
Posts: 195
Joined: Sun Mar 08, 2009 2:38 pm UTC
Location: Canada, Alberta

Re: Woman Uses Right to Defend herself, pain ensues

Postby PhoenixRider » Fri Aug 07, 2009 5:56 pm UTC

natraj wrote:So, uh, the woman should have waited till after he assaulted her even more than forcibly groping to do anything to fight back?

So then a hoard of people could be like dude, he was groping you and waving his dick at you, why didn't you do something before he raped you?

One of many flaws with the system...and peoples common sense that is.

She did a great job. Hell, it would have been better if she just chopped that shit off. As bad as that mental image may be, he deserves anything that comes at him.

User avatar
Izawwlgood
WINNING
Posts: 18686
Joined: Mon Nov 19, 2007 3:55 pm UTC
Location: There may be lovelier lovelies...

Re: Woman Uses Right to Defend herself, pain ensues

Postby Izawwlgood » Fri Aug 07, 2009 6:00 pm UTC

I like the magistrates response, which read to me like :
"So that's what happened? Okay. Come back for the court date and we'll see about getting this sorted out, you're free to go [pssst! Well done!], and expect a phone call for arrangements pertaining to [I totally approve!] the proceedings."

She absolutely acted within the law, and within her rights, and within how I feel one can/shout act given the situation.

In answer to sophy's inquiry as to why people aren't appalled a guy was acting the way this guy was, I think we are, we just feel that he's gotten a good portion (maybe all, maybe not) of what he deserved. He acted atrociously, really, really atrociously, and had she gotten the authorities involved, I wouldn't bat an eye at some pretty hefty punishments (jail time?).
... with gigantic melancholies and gigantic mirth, to tread the jeweled thrones of the Earth under his sandalled feet.

User avatar
SpeZek
Posts: 7
Joined: Tue Jul 07, 2009 1:19 pm UTC
Location: Winnipeg, Canada
Contact:

Re: Woman Uses Right to Defend herself, pain ensues

Postby SpeZek » Fri Aug 07, 2009 6:31 pm UTC

Belial wrote:He wasn't merely blocking her way out, he was sexually assaulting and threatening her.


He wasn't blocking her way out. She could have escaped.

I'm sorry, but dumping something flammable on somebody, waiting, and then lighting them on fire for effect isn't self defense. It's planned retribution.

tfa wrote:After asking him to stop harassing her, the police said, she poured the alcoholic drink Sabucco on his genitals (an Italian brand type of Greek ouzo or French Pernod drink).

This again allegedly failed to stop his advances, so the woman seized a lighter and set fire to the alcohol-drenched genitals, local press reports said.

Self defense doesn't mean use the maximum amount of force possible. It means defending yourself, and getting out of harms way. Hurting isn't the point.

So, if you're in your car, and some machete wielding maniac is running right for you, is it self defense to run him over?

Hell, from some of the responses here, I wouldn't be surprised if the answer was yes. Considering at least one person feels that it would have been justifiable for her to attack him with a knife.

User avatar
Spacemilk
Posts: 936
Joined: Tue Dec 02, 2008 9:03 pm UTC
Location: Hugh ston
Contact:

Re: Woman Uses Right to Defend herself, pain ensues

Postby Spacemilk » Fri Aug 07, 2009 6:37 pm UTC

SpeZek wrote:Hell, from some of the responses here, I wouldn't be surprised if the answer was yes. Considering at least one person feels that it would have been justifiable for her to attack him with a knife.


The answer is yes. Have you ever been in a situation like this? Your first thought isn't "what's the minimum amount of harm I can do to stop them?" Because answering such a question requires complex calculations, considerations, and possibly weapons, strength, or knowledge that you don't have. (NEWSFLASH: MOST WOMEN (AND MEN) DO NOT KNOW JUDO. Just fyi.) Your first thought is "how the fuck do I get them to stop, and how do I get them to stop NOW?" Then you do whatever it takes to do this. Human beings are very instinctive when threatened - we lose a bit of our rationality.

Also your example is flat-out stupid. A machete wielding maniac? You mean, someone who clearly wants to kill you and is going all-out to do it? And you think you shouldn't do whatever it takes to stop the fuck out of him? What is WRONG with you? Fun fact: I HAVE been threatened by someone with a machete! Good times!
milk from space is good for you!



The Reaper
Posts: 4008
Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2007 5:37 am UTC
Location: San Antonio, Tx
Contact:

Re: Woman Uses Right to Defend herself, pain ensues

Postby The Reaper » Fri Aug 07, 2009 6:41 pm UTC

SpeZek wrote:
Belial wrote:He wasn't merely blocking her way out, he was sexually assaulting and threatening her.


He wasn't blocking her way out. She could have escaped.

I'm sorry, but dumping something flammable on somebody, waiting, and then lighting them on fire for effect isn't self defense. It's planned retribution.

tfa wrote:After asking him to stop harassing her, the police said, she poured the alcoholic drink Sabucco on his genitals (an Italian brand type of Greek ouzo or French Pernod drink).

This again allegedly failed to stop his advances, so the woman seized a lighter and set fire to the alcohol-drenched genitals, local press reports said.

Self defense doesn't mean use the maximum amount of force possible. It means defending yourself, and getting out of harms way. Hurting isn't the point.

So, if you're in your car, and some machete wielding maniac is running right for you, is it self defense to run him over?

Hell, from some of the responses here, I wouldn't be surprised if the answer was yes. Considering at least one person feels that it would have been justifiable for her to attack him with a knife.
The groping wasn't cause enough for self defense?

If my experiences in bars are anything to this matter, it may have gone something like
Spoiler:
"hey baby touch my junk"
"here your junk needs another drink now fuck off" -throws drink-
"cmon baby you know you want a real man, just touch it" -gropes-
"get the fuck away, I've got fire"
"get over here" -grabs again-
-fwoof-

But hey, what do I know, I just used to drink in bars nonstop for 3 years around complete idiots (fuck yea, soldiers) I've seen dumber things happen. I'm more wondering why noone made the dude put his junk up before the chick lit it on fire...

EDIT: I've also been threatened by people with machetes. no bueno.

User avatar
Jessica
Jessica, you're a ...
Posts: 8337
Joined: Tue Oct 23, 2007 8:57 pm UTC
Location: Soviet Canuckistan

Re: Woman Uses Right to Defend herself, pain ensues

Postby Jessica » Fri Aug 07, 2009 6:47 pm UTC

I envision the encounter like this
*whips out junk, and gropes her* hey!
*throws drink on his exposed genitalia, something that isn't the most fun experience in the world, having either a cold drink or alcohol on your exposed junk* get away
*gropes again* come on...
*grabs a lighter which is on the table and lights*
doogly wrote:On a scale of Mr Rogers to Fascism, how mean do you think we're being?
Belial wrote:My goal is to be the best brain infection any of you have ever had.

User avatar
Spacemilk
Posts: 936
Joined: Tue Dec 02, 2008 9:03 pm UTC
Location: Hugh ston
Contact:

Re: Woman Uses Right to Defend herself, pain ensues

Postby Spacemilk » Fri Aug 07, 2009 6:47 pm UTC

The Reaper wrote:EDIT: I've also been threatened by people with machetes. no bueno.


Let's start a club! Like G.R.O.S.S. in Calvin and Hobb's. Maybe Machetes Are Dangerous, For Your Information? (MAD, FYI!)
milk from space is good for you!



User avatar
Cytoplasm
Posts: 1310
Joined: Tue Oct 23, 2007 1:00 am UTC
Location: EE.UU.(+ Cheese)

Re: Woman Uses Right to Defend herself, pain ensues

Postby Cytoplasm » Fri Aug 07, 2009 6:55 pm UTC

Well, she did ask nicely and didn't light his family's jewels on fire right away.

I see nothing wrong except that he didn't get thrown out of the bar.
Hmm..smashed junk or crispy junk?
¡No tengo miedo a fantasmas!

Spoiler:
Cytoplasm: I have catoragized some of my family into lolcats.
Felstaff: For a drudging Thursday afternoon, that level of cuteness has really made my day. Can... Can I keep you?

Felstaff wrote:
Cytoplasm wrote:shannonigans

<3

User avatar
Belial
A terrible sound heard from a distance
Posts: 30450
Joined: Sat Apr 15, 2006 4:04 am UTC
Contact:

Re: Woman Uses Right to Defend herself, pain ensues

Postby Belial » Fri Aug 07, 2009 7:23 pm UTC

SpeZek wrote:Considering at least one person feels that it would have been justifiable for her to attack him with a knife.


YES THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN JUSTIFIABLE! He was sexually assaulting her. When you do that, you get *stabbed*. Or set on fire. Or whatever. He was told to stop. He didn't. Instead, he continued with the sexual assault. Continued to act in a threatening and unacceptable manner. So she stopped him, thus ending the threat to herself. End of story.
addams wrote:A drunk neighbor is better than a sober Belial.


They/them

User avatar
SummerGlauFan
Posts: 1746
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2009 8:27 pm UTC
Location: KS

Re: Woman Uses Right to Defend herself, pain ensues

Postby SummerGlauFan » Fri Aug 07, 2009 7:29 pm UTC

Yes, if she was being assaulted (and she was), any course of action available to her would have been justified. It just so happened the only course of action available were throwing a drink, and using a lighter. Note that at first, she only threw the drink.

Had she had a gun or a knife, and this guy had died, I would still support her.
glasnt wrote:"As she raised her rifle against the creature, her hair fluttered beneath the red florescent lighting of the locked down building.

I knew from that moment that she was something special"


Outbreak, a tale of love and zombies.

In stores now.

User avatar
Dream
WINNING
Posts: 4338
Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2007 7:20 pm UTC
Location: The Hollow Scene Epic

Re: Woman Uses Right to Defend herself, pain ensues

Postby Dream » Fri Aug 07, 2009 7:41 pm UTC

Q: Could this method of self defence be sold as a product?

A: Fuck no.

Conclusion: She has a case to answer.

I will never, ever be happy about a person being set on fire. It's is disfiguring, massively more dangerously uncontrollable than it's intended effect, and potentially lethal. While it effectively defended her, none of the three things listed have any place in a method of self defence. As such, she'll likely have to prove that it was necessary. No calling for help could be possible, no running away, no lesser method cold have been thought at the time to be useful. These things and more are relevant because of the seriousness of her actions. In a public bar, I'm guessing that she didn't even begin to exhaust any opportunities to deal with the situation as there was no mention of such in the article. If she can prove she found it necessary to set a person on fire, she'll rightly not be convicted. If not, she'll rightly be convicted. We have courts to decide these things.

I'll never support vigilante "justice", and this looks very like that.
I knew a woman once, but she died soon after.

User avatar
Izawwlgood
WINNING
Posts: 18686
Joined: Mon Nov 19, 2007 3:55 pm UTC
Location: There may be lovelier lovelies...

Re: Woman Uses Right to Defend herself, pain ensues

Postby Izawwlgood » Fri Aug 07, 2009 7:49 pm UTC

It was a crowded bar, and that no one had done anything about the douchbag makes me think she WAS left with no other option.
... with gigantic melancholies and gigantic mirth, to tread the jeweled thrones of the Earth under his sandalled feet.

User avatar
Crius
Posts: 392
Joined: Thu Feb 12, 2009 7:27 pm UTC

Re: Woman Uses Right to Defend herself, pain ensues

Postby Crius » Fri Aug 07, 2009 8:00 pm UTC

Bright Shadows wrote:<_<
A simple knee would have sufficed, I think. Drunk or not, guys do not get up so quickly after taking any kind of hurt to their balls.
Lighting the man's groin on fire was probably just the thing that came to mind at the time to get him away, and I can understand that, though. Time was of the essence.

Preview Ninja'd by Heisenburg, posted anyway.


Kicking a man in the groin isn't generally recommended for self-defense, IIRC. While painful, it doesn't dehabilitate the man in any way, and is likely to make him angrier and more violent. The recommended defense is to go for the eyes, I believe.


Dream wrote:Q: Could this method of self defence be sold as a product?

A: Fuck no.


Why is this relevant?

User avatar
Belial
A terrible sound heard from a distance
Posts: 30450
Joined: Sat Apr 15, 2006 4:04 am UTC
Contact:

Re: Woman Uses Right to Defend herself, pain ensues

Postby Belial » Fri Aug 07, 2009 8:07 pm UTC

Dream wrote:I'll never support vigilante "justice", and this looks very like that.


"Vigilante justice" happens after the fact. This happened during. The victim acted against her own attacker, using whatever materials came to hand. Which makes it self defense with an improvised weapon. It happened the nearest weapon at her disposal was fire. The risk you take when you pick on the seemingly-defenseless is that the weapons they come up with to fend you off may not be the most efficient and humane ones possible. They will, in fact, use whatever is closest to hand at the time. If what is closest to hand is fire, then you're going to be burned.

Too bad. So sad.
addams wrote:A drunk neighbor is better than a sober Belial.


They/them

User avatar
(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
As the Arbiter of Everything, Everything Sucks
Posts: 8314
Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2007 6:17 pm UTC
Location: I FUCKING MOVED TO THE WOODS

Re: Woman Uses Right to Defend herself, pain ensues

Postby (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻ » Fri Aug 07, 2009 8:11 pm UTC

I would probably not have used fire- I would have taken the opportunity to seize ahold of his genitals, as requested.

and tear his balls clean off. I've heard this only takes a few pounds of pressure. If someone were sexually assaulting me in a bar, escalating when confronted with deterrants, then yes, I would probably do this.

Off. Yes. He would deserve such a thing.

This is simply my opinion of the matter. AND EVERYTHING BELIAL SAID.
Heyyy baby wanna kill all humans?

User avatar
Will
There are about a million things I can do from behind
Posts: 2256
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2007 11:12 pm UTC
Location: St. Heraldwulf's Stone
Contact:

Re: Woman Uses Right to Defend herself, pain ensues

Postby Will » Fri Aug 07, 2009 8:16 pm UTC

Sad? I'll only be sad if I find out the fire didn't permanently sterilize him.
Seriously, everything belial said. When someone is physically assaulting you you don't get to fucking sit around and think about whether or not your assailant might be permanently disfigured by your actions, or think "hey, maybe there's a different way I can resolve the situation." You fucking defend yourself, with whatever means you have at your disposal.
Meaux_Pas: Is it fucking Taint Sunday or something?
liza: Screw y'all, I'm going to the moon

User avatar
Vaniver
Posts: 9422
Joined: Fri Oct 13, 2006 2:12 am UTC

Re: Woman Uses Right to Defend herself, pain ensues

Postby Vaniver » Fri Aug 07, 2009 8:17 pm UTC

As stated before, I think that the amount of damage done by self-defense should be allowed to be significantly higher than the assault being defended against. I don't know if I agree that mutilation (that is what this is, right? Or is he expected to recover without much in the way of permanent damage?) isn't too high, though.
I mostly post over at LessWrong now.

Avatar from My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic, owned by Hasbro.

User avatar
Diadem
Posts: 5654
Joined: Wed Jun 11, 2008 11:03 am UTC
Location: The Netherlands

Re: Woman Uses Right to Defend herself, pain ensues

Postby Diadem » Fri Aug 07, 2009 8:20 pm UTC

That's always the problem with self-defence.

If you had the luxury to sit down during an emergency, think about it for a while, read up on the effects of various materials at hand, and then use the one most efficient while doing the least damage, well that would be nice. But that's not how things work.

You have to act, and you have to act now. You can't stop to think. Even if you do have a few seconds, thinking is very hard when in such a situation. So you grab the nearest available weapon and use it. And you have every right to do that.

It would be different is she was a police women investigating a case. Imagine a policewomen responding to an emergency call about an sexual assault, and as she arrives at the scene the suspect, with this junk out, starts to grope her. Is setting him on fire justified now? No, she's trained for situations like this. She knows how to act, she should have practiced similar situations so often as to become second nature. In such a situation you can say that she is using excessive force.

There is such a thing as excessive violence in self-defence. Not every conceivable action is allowed under the guise of self-defence. But the burden of proof should lie with the state. They should have to proof that the self-defender was fully and consciously aware of alternative options that were equally effective during the conflict itself, and consciously chose not to use them.

If you're assaulted and you just instincively pull your gun and shoot him, that's ok. But if you think: "hmm, he's unarmed, and clearly in bad physical condition. I can easily outrun him. Or punch him. I've got a black belt in karate after all. Oh but let's shoot him, I've always wanted to try that, and now I have the chance".... Now *that* is using excessive force.
It's one of those irregular verbs, isn't it? I have an independent mind, you are an eccentric, he is round the twist
- Bernard Woolley in Yes, Prime Minister

Aetius
Posts: 1099
Joined: Mon Sep 08, 2008 7:23 am UTC

Re: Woman Uses Right to Defend herself, pain ensues

Postby Aetius » Fri Aug 07, 2009 8:29 pm UTC

Meaux_Pas wrote:I would probably not have used fire- I would have taken the opportunity to seize ahold of his genitals, as requested.

and tear his balls clean off. I've heard this only takes a few pounds of pressure. If someone were sexually assaulting me in a bar, escalating when confronted with deterrants, then yes, I would probably do this.

Off. Yes. He would deserve such a thing.


I'm pretty sure it's only a few pounds to crush them, not tear them off. Tearing them off requires you to rupture skin and blood vessels and whatnot, and while skin's not exactly made of steel it's still fairly tough stuff when stretched. Just pinch the back of your hand and think about how much force it would take to rip the skin clean off.

Anyway, the self defense angle depends entirely on whether fire was quickly available and was in her mind the most effective weapon at hand, or whether she did it as retribution.

User avatar
Angua
Don't call her Delphine.
Posts: 5944
Joined: Tue Sep 16, 2008 12:42 pm UTC
Location: UK/[St. Kitts and] Nevis Occasionally, I migrate to the US for a bit

Re: Woman Uses Right to Defend herself, pain ensues

Postby Angua » Fri Aug 07, 2009 8:31 pm UTC

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/8189296.stm

According to this, she is denying setting him on fire.
Crabtree's bludgeon: “no set of mutually inconsistent observations can exist for which some human intellect cannot conceive a coherent explanation, however complicated”
GNU Terry Pratchett

User avatar
Darkscull
Posts: 798
Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2008 10:46 am UTC
Location: Now where I want to be

Re: Woman Uses Right to Defend herself, pain ensues

Postby Darkscull » Fri Aug 07, 2009 8:32 pm UTC

The thing I love about this is that everyone in Greece is like "fuck yeah", because everyone hates British tourist louts.
Physicists do it in an excited state.
m/bi/UK/Ⓐ/chaotic good
b. 1988 d. 20xx

User avatar
Dream
WINNING
Posts: 4338
Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2007 7:20 pm UTC
Location: The Hollow Scene Epic

Re: Woman Uses Right to Defend herself, pain ensues

Postby Dream » Fri Aug 07, 2009 8:43 pm UTC

Belial wrote:
Dream wrote:I'll never support vigilante "justice", and this looks very like that.


"Vigilante justice" happens after the fact. This happened during.

Only the thoughts of the person, their motivation can tell the difference between retribution and defence. Were it possible for her to end the threat by simply walking out of the bar, then her actions were massively excessive, and I don't think it is a great leap to ascribe them to retributive malice. She could easily have been thinking not "oh shit I'm terrified how do I stop this", but rather "wave your nads at me and I'll fuck you up". A trial should establish that, as long as it isn't mired in either misogyny or xenophobia. If it turns out to be the latter, then she belongs in prison for mutilating a person in retribution for his completely illegal and reprehensible actions. So as I said, it looks like retribution to me, and there should be a trial. I said she has a case to answer, not that she is guilty.
I knew a woman once, but she died soon after.

User avatar
gmalivuk
GNU Terry Pratchett
Posts: 26836
Joined: Wed Feb 28, 2007 6:02 pm UTC
Location: Here and There
Contact:

Re: Woman Uses Right to Defend herself, pain ensues

Postby gmalivuk » Fri Aug 07, 2009 8:47 pm UTC

The Reaper wrote:EDIT: I've also been threatened by people with machetes. no bueno.

Indeed, though in my case it wasn't me he was facing with it. But I'd've felt justified breaking his back with the heavy wooden chair I picked up in case I thought he was going to try using it on anyone. I would also have felt horribly sick afterwards, sure, but from what I've read the same response is common for people who kill in self defense against someone who's literally about to shoot them, so feeling sick with guilt is not actually a reliable indication that it would be wrong to do it.

Dream wrote:So as I said, it looks like retribution to me

How the hell do you figure that, when he was still sexually assaulting her at the time!? By its definition, doesn't retribution have to be something that happens *after* an act? Also, didn't the article say he was blocking her way? So by the information we already have she was trying to leave the bar, and couldn't. Therefore you can't say it might have been possible for her to fix everything by "simply" walking out of the bar.
Unless stated otherwise, I do not care whether a statement, by itself, constitutes a persuasive political argument. I care whether it's true.
---
If this post has math that doesn't work for you, use TeX the World for Firefox or Chrome

(he/him/his)


Return to “News & Articles”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: ObsessoMom and 19 guests