Are you Ready for some "Football"!!! NFL Discussion

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Re: Are you Ready for some "Football"!!! NFL Discussion

Postby Dark567 » Mon Jan 17, 2011 10:18 pm UTC

Heisenberg wrote:While passer rating isn't the end-all-be-all, it's certainly better than TDs/season, which is heavily weighted towards whoever has the most attempts

Rodgers had 475 attempts while Brees(658) and Manning(679) had around 30% more throws, its pretty predictable that they would have more TD's than Rodgers. Brady is an outlier, he has easily the most TD's/attempt, but with less yardage than any of them. It makes me wonder if Bill is a lot more likely than other coaches to call pass plays in the red zone(or for that matter more likely than he typically is to call a pass).
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Re: Are you Ready for some "Football"!!! NFL Discussion

Postby Heisenberg » Mon Jan 17, 2011 10:32 pm UTC

Or maybe he cheats and records defensive signals, giving him a significant advantage knowing what the coverage will be. On second thought, nah.

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Re: Are you Ready for some "Football"!!! NFL Discussion

Postby Dark567 » Mon Jan 17, 2011 10:35 pm UTC

Heisenberg wrote:Or maybe he cheats and records defensive signals, giving him a significant advantage knowing what the coverage will be. On second thought, nah.

Right, but if that was the case, you would also expect him to be able to get a significant yardage advantage. How is Brady scoring touchdowns, without getting yards? Seems to me like the play calling near the endzone must be heavier on the passes.
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Re: Are you Ready for some "Football"!!! NFL Discussion

Postby Heisenberg » Mon Jan 17, 2011 10:46 pm UTC

You're probably right, but it also could simply be areas of success. You'd see the same thing if Manning were very good at passing with a large field, but saw most of his incompletions/interceptions in the Red Zone, while Brady had the opposite problem. And of course, there are other factors, like the fact that playing from behind you're more likely to see a prevent defense, which allows yards but not TDs.

Either way, I think Rodgers is certainly in the same league as Manning and Brady in terms of stats from the past two years (Rodgers' first year was also good, but Brady couldn't play due to a Stat-Padding Injury).
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Re: Are you Ready for some "Football"!!! NFL Discussion

Postby Darryl » Sun Jan 23, 2011 3:40 am UTC

Dark567 wrote:
bentheimmigrant wrote:Also also, no one expected Rogers to have a perfect game (in the other game, obviously). The punter AND the kicker never played a snap, because they scored a touchdown on every drive but the first one (a WR fumbled). That is also craziness.
Really? Rodgers has played almost every playoff game nearly perfectly, he only lost to Arizona last year because the defense gave up 51 points. He has a 121 QB rating in the Playoffs and is the All-time leader in NFL passer rating(Although this is admittedly something that favors young quaterbacks). The packers also made a field goal and a missed a field goal, so the kicker did play a snap, they just never punted.

Correction, as much of a Green Bay fan as I am, I must remind you that their defense only gave up 45 points. The final 6 was from Karlos Dansby getting a fumble return into the end zone. Green Bay's defense gave up 45, their offense gave up the fateful 6.
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Re: Are you Ready for some "Football"!!! NFL Discussion

Postby Dark567 » Sun Jan 23, 2011 3:50 am UTC

Darryl wrote:Correction, as much of a Green Bay fan as I am, I must remind you that their defense only gave up 45 points. The final 6 was from Karlos Dansby getting a fumble return into the end zone. Green Bay's defense gave up 45, their offense gave up the fateful 6.
True.... but you still don't win many games giving up 45....

Anyway, I am more worried about the offense putting up points tomorrow than the defense stopping the Bears. Particularly so as I paid a bunch of money to sit with 50,000 Bears fans in the freezing cold. I want to see Aaron Rodgers light the place up.
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Re: Are you Ready for some "Football"!!! NFL Discussion

Postby Darryl » Sun Jan 23, 2011 3:53 am UTC

Dark567 wrote:
Darryl wrote:Correction, as much of a Green Bay fan as I am, I must remind you that their defense only gave up 45 points. The final 6 was from Karlos Dansby getting a fumble return into the end zone. Green Bay's defense gave up 45, their offense gave up the fateful 6.
True.... but you still don't win many games giving up 45....

Anyway, I am more worried about the offense putting up points tomorrow than the defense stopping the Bears. Particularly so as I paid a bunch of money to sit with 50,000 Bears fans in the freezing cold. I want to see Aaron Rodgers light the place up.

I feel fairly confident that Rodgers will carve up the Bears. Packers haven't just been a great offense against not good enough defenses, they've been man-on-fire. At this point, I don't think the infamous Purple People-Eater defense of the Vikings of yore, or Miami's amazing-playing No-Name Defense could put a stop to them.
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Re: Are you Ready for some "Football"!!! NFL Discussion

Postby mosc » Mon Jan 24, 2011 4:07 pm UTC

Rogers doesn't seem to like the cold. That's OK though because Cutler punched his ticket to Dallas for him.
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Re: Are you Ready for some "Football"!!! NFL Discussion

Postby Telchar » Mon Jan 24, 2011 5:10 pm UTC

mosc wrote:Rogers doesn't seem to like the cold. That's OK though because Cutler punched his ticket to Dallas for him.


It's predictable that Cutler gets crucified by the media, but it seems really odd. The guy gets pulled by the medical staff and still takes shit for not being tough enough.

Not only that, but even if he had pulled himself, how many times do we talk about football being a team game and criticizing the "Me First" attititude of guys like TO. He knows he can't play better than the guy behind him so, rather than playing and sucking and being a macho guy, he gives his team the best chance to win.

How often did Vikings fans (or Jets fans for that matter) wish Favre would've sat out so they had a chance to win games?
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Re: Are you Ready for some "Football"!!! NFL Discussion

Postby Dark567 » Mon Jan 24, 2011 5:14 pm UTC

Yeah. I am pretty sure you guys would have rather had Hanie in there anyway. He was much better than Cutler.
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Re: Are you Ready for some "Football"!!! NFL Discussion

Postby mosc » Mon Jan 24, 2011 5:14 pm UTC

Cutler did plenty of card punching in the first half. I don't blame him for the second half.
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Re: Are you Ready for some "Football"!!! NFL Discussion

Postby Telchar » Mon Jan 24, 2011 5:21 pm UTC

Yeah, it was bad in the first half, but our average field position had to be our own 5 yard line. It's tough to get anything going when your line sucks AND you're playing in your own endzone.
Zamfir wrote:Yeah, that's a good point. Everyone is all about presumption of innocence in rape threads. But when Mexican drug lords build APCs to carry their henchmen around, we immediately jump to criminal conclusions without hard evidence.

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Re: Are you Ready for some "Football"!!! NFL Discussion

Postby bentheimmigrant » Mon Jan 24, 2011 5:23 pm UTC

I'm fairly convinced it would have been much worse if Cutler hadn't been injured. But people want to see actual signs of injury. No real limp, standing on the sidelines, walking around, all of it looked more like he didn't want to play (or was benched). This is not to say that he wasn't injured, but Chicago has a reputation for toughness, and if you can walk, you can play in the minds of many fans. I take what he and the team has said at face value, though, and am glad he wasn't pressured to play on potentially torn ligaments.

Also, it was more entertaining watching some unknown QB trying to put a comeback together that seeing Cutler embarrass himself (even though I really don't like him).
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Re: Are you Ready for some "Football"!!! NFL Discussion

Postby jakovasaur » Mon Jan 24, 2011 5:35 pm UTC

bentheimmigrant wrote:I'm fairly convinced it would have been much worse if Cutler hadn't been injured. But people want to see actual signs of injury. No real limp, standing on the sidelines, walking around, all of it looked more like he didn't want to play (or was benched). This is not to say that he wasn't injured, but Chicago has a reputation for toughness, and if you can walk, you can play in the minds of many fans. I take what he and the team has said at face value, though, and am glad he wasn't pressured to play on potentially torn ligaments.

Also, it was more entertaining watching some unknown QB trying to put a comeback together that seeing Cutler embarrass himself (even though I really don't like him).

Also, once Hanie went in, Cutler couldn't have played if he wanted to, thanks to the 3rd QB rule.

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Re: Are you Ready for some "Football"!!! NFL Discussion

Postby Adacore » Mon Jan 24, 2011 5:47 pm UTC

jakovasaur wrote:Also, once Hanie went in, Cutler couldn't have played if he wanted to, thanks to the 3rd QB rule.

I've been following NFL for five years now and I totally never knew that rule! Thanks jakovasaur - one more obscure NFL rule added to my knowledge of trivia :D

I wonder what the Bears will do at QB next season (if there is a next season). Any chance they'll take a shot at using Hanie as the starter? Probably not, I guess.

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Re: Are you Ready for some "Football"!!! NFL Discussion

Postby bentheimmigrant » Mon Jan 24, 2011 5:54 pm UTC

Adacore wrote:
jakovasaur wrote:Also, once Hanie went in, Cutler couldn't have played if he wanted to, thanks to the 3rd QB rule.

I've been following NFL for five years now and I totally never knew that rule! Thanks jakovasaur - one more obscure NFL rule added to my knowledge of trivia :D

I wonder what the Bears will do at QB next season (if there is a next season). Any chance they'll take a shot at using Hanie as the starter? Probably not, I guess.

Only because it happened at the end of the third. If they'd waited 30 seconds for the 4th to start, then the rule wouldn't come into play... As for Hanie starting, he didn't play THAT well. And the Bears have like $15million/year invested in Cutler (who was on his first winning team since high school - see, I told you I don't like him)
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Re: Are you Ready for some "Football"!!! NFL Discussion

Postby Telchar » Mon Jan 24, 2011 7:44 pm UTC

Yeah, people see it as a controversy because they are emotional atm. Hanie dumped off a ton of passes and never looked super comfortable. Admitedlly, he is the 3rd string QB and I'm glad he's here. I'm glad Tod Collins is leaving.
Zamfir wrote:Yeah, that's a good point. Everyone is all about presumption of innocence in rape threads. But when Mexican drug lords build APCs to carry their henchmen around, we immediately jump to criminal conclusions without hard evidence.

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Re: Are you Ready for some "Football"!!! NFL Discussion

Postby Dark567 » Mon Jan 24, 2011 7:50 pm UTC

Telchar wrote:I'm glad Tod Collins is leaving.

I can't imagine he will ever have another pass in the NFL.
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Re: Are you Ready for some "Football"!!! NFL Discussion

Postby Telchar » Mon Jan 24, 2011 8:15 pm UTC

I can't beleive you look at your depth chart after the Panthers game and it doesn't look like this.

QB

1. Jay Cutler
2. Caleb Hanie
3. Anyone not named Todd Collins
4. Forfeit
Zamfir wrote:Yeah, that's a good point. Everyone is all about presumption of innocence in rape threads. But when Mexican drug lords build APCs to carry their henchmen around, we immediately jump to criminal conclusions without hard evidence.

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Re: Are you Ready for some "Football"!!! NFL Discussion

Postby Oregonaut » Mon Jan 24, 2011 8:22 pm UTC

They could always follow the winning example of the Washington Redskins and just keep two quarterbacks.

Because QBs never get injured.

Ever.
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Re: Are you Ready for some "Football"!!! NFL Discussion

Postby mosc » Mon Jan 24, 2011 9:23 pm UTC

Cmon now. Tom Tuppa was the 3rd string quaterback on a dozen teams over like a 20 year period.
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Re: Are you Ready for some "Football"!!! NFL Discussion

Postby Oregonaut » Mon Jan 24, 2011 9:34 pm UTC

We used Russ Grimm as a QB for a series.

Russ. Freaking. Grimm.
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Re: Are you Ready for some "Football"!!! NFL Discussion

Postby Darryl » Tue Jan 25, 2011 1:50 am UTC

Telchar wrote:I can't beleive you look at your depth chart after the Panthers game and it doesn't look like this.

QB

1. Jay Cutler
2. Caleb Hanie
3. Anyone not named Todd Collins
4. Forfeit

I can't believe Todd Collins was ever above the third-string position. The Giants dropped him for a reason.

And Hanie could do good things with a bit more time as a secondary. Sure, Cutler loves to blow the game, but Hanie is definitely not ready for the big starting job yet. Shame you got rid of Kyle Orton (and a draft pick!) for Cutler. :P


And Oregonaut, we used Ronnie Brown. Wait, that's normal. ;)
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Re: Are you Ready for some "Football"!!! NFL Discussion

Postby Darryl » Sun Feb 06, 2011 10:52 pm UTC

Super Bowl Sunday, and last week, some big trade news from The Onion (which had me rolling): http://www.onionsportsnetwork.com/artic ... w-t,18995/

So, what's the picks in here for this one?

Edit: Packers for me.
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Re: Are you Ready for some "Football"!!! NFL Discussion

Postby mmmcannibalism » Mon Feb 07, 2011 5:30 am UTC

Was really rooting for the steelers, shame.
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Re: Are you Ready for some "Football"!!! NFL Discussion

Postby McCaber » Tue Feb 08, 2011 11:15 pm UTC

Holy crap. That game was fucking awesome.

Packers won it with defense and despite injuries, like they've done all season long. I'm really looking forward to next year, when Jermichael Finley and Ryan Grant come back.
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Re: Are you Ready for some "Football"!!! NFL Discussion

Postby Adacore » Tue Feb 08, 2011 11:55 pm UTC

McCaber wrote:Packers won it with defense and despite injuries, like they've done all season long. I'm really looking forward to next year, when Jermichael Finley and Ryan Grant come back.

Yeah - next year the Packers could be incredible. Don't forget about the injuries on the defensive side as well - Barnett will hopefully be back, as will Chillar. And so many of the guys are young - Driver and Woodson are getting old, sure, but the vast majority of the starters have got a good half dozen years left in their prime. Packers could be dominating NFC North for the best part of the next decade.

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Re: Are you Ready for some "Football"!!! NFL Discussion

Postby Dark567 » Wed Feb 09, 2011 12:22 am UTC

Adacore wrote:
McCaber wrote:Packers won it with defense and despite injuries, like they've done all season long. I'm really looking forward to next year, when Jermichael Finley and Ryan Grant come back.

Yeah - next year the Packers could be incredible. Don't forget about the injuries on the defensive side as well - Barnett will hopefully be back, as will Chillar. And so many of the guys are young - Driver and Woodson are getting old, sure, but the vast majority of the starters have got a good half dozen years left in their prime. Packers could be dominating NFC North for the best part of the next decade.


Drivers only got a couple left in him. I wouldn't be surprised if he retires this year. But quite frankly if there is one position the Packers have depth at, its Wide Receiver, so its not the end of the world. They could definitely dominate the NFC North for quite awhile, and the funniest part is, that their biggest competition will probably be the Lions, not sure I previously ever would have thought that would be true.

Anyway, great game although I kinda wish we would have ran up the score more against Rapistburger, but oh well.
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Re: Are you Ready for some "Football"!!! NFL Discussion

Postby Bright Shadows » Wed Feb 09, 2011 5:06 am UTC

I am so excited for the Lions next season. For sure. If they can manage to keep a QB for longer than 3 weeks, the Packers will have some competition right out of the gate.
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Re: Are you Ready for some "Football"!!! NFL Discussion

Postby bentheimmigrant » Mon Feb 28, 2011 11:19 pm UTC

It's feeling more and more like there's going to be a lockout next season. At the bottom of this article, it says that a lockout would result in a loss of $1B in revenue. Last I checked, the NFL had something like a $9B revenue! A drop of ~11% for not even delivering your product? That's outrageous. Apparently the TV channels are locked into paying for content, whether or not the season goes ahead. That means there is little incentive for the owners to deliver anything next year, and that is ludicrous beyond my ability to describe.
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Re: Are you Ready for some "Football"!!! NFL Discussion

Postby Dark567 » Mon Feb 28, 2011 11:29 pm UTC

bentheimmigrant wrote:. Last I checked, the NFL had something like a $9B revenue! A drop of ~11% for not even delivering your product? That's outrageous. Apparently the TV channels are locked into paying for content, whether or not the season goes ahead. That means there is little incentive for the owners to deliver anything next year, and that is ludicrous beyond my ability to describe.
Its not that they don't have to provide anything. But they could provide absolute shit, like getting a bunch of volunteer high schoolers to play some football and send it to the TV stations, which would then never air it. So in practicality, they don't have to deliver anything. Anyway at the bottom the billion is lost for the offseason and the preseason. The actual expected loss if there weren't a season at all is about $5billion. So its a pretty significant hit, but they still earn $4 billion for nothing.
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Re: Are you Ready for some "Football"!!! NFL Discussion

Postby bentheimmigrant » Mon Feb 28, 2011 11:42 pm UTC

Are they still obliged to pay players during a lockout? I mean, contracts must supersede the CBA, right? Or are they dependent on it?
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Re: Are you Ready for some "Football"!!! NFL Discussion

Postby Dark567 » Tue Mar 01, 2011 12:00 am UTC

Not at the moment, with no cba they don't get paid. The nflpa though is trying to get an injunction aginst the tv money so the nfl won't be in as good of position to negotiate, but I think its unlikely to go through. The nflpa have also threaten to deunionize, but the NFL has stated that it will file an appeal to labor board claiming the players didn't actually deunionize. I'm not sure why the NFL wants to keep the players unionized. Maybe to simplify negotiations? But maybe because they would have to honor existing contracts without a union?
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Re: Are you Ready for some "Football"!!! NFL Discussion

Postby Telchar » Tue Mar 01, 2011 12:03 am UTC

The complaint with the labor board over decertification of the union is unlikely to lead anywhere according to the legal experts I've heard. Decertification disolves the union and then if players are locked out they can file suit via anti-trust laws about owners colluding.

The NFL is a bizarre entity in that it is sometimes treated as one entity with several subcorporations and sometimes as 32 individual entities with similar interests.
Zamfir wrote:Yeah, that's a good point. Everyone is all about presumption of innocence in rape threads. But when Mexican drug lords build APCs to carry their henchmen around, we immediately jump to criminal conclusions without hard evidence.

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Re: Are you Ready for some "Football"!!! NFL Discussion

Postby Dark567 » Tue Mar 01, 2011 12:52 am UTC

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/20 ... certifies/

This is probably the best article I've seen on it. Apparently the union decertified in the 1980 negotiations and once that happened the NFL started up the season and the union reorganized. The NFL is going to use this as evidence that they are just planning on decertifing as a negotiating tactic and aren't really deunionizing.

This is a mess.
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Re: Are you Ready for some "Football"!!! NFL Discussion

Postby Telchar » Tue Mar 01, 2011 2:57 am UTC

They can say that but unless they can prove it, or that in some way is negotiating in bad faith, then nothing will come of it. The only way this could get resolved without the courts deciding it (well...not entirely accurate) is if the upcoming suit about the TV contracts gets ruled in the players favor ie: the owners don't have a 4 billion dollar fund they can draw on courtesy of the broadcast networks. That would at least put pressure on both sides to get something done.

Interesting aside somewhat related: The last time baseball struck it had to go through the courts in order to get resolution. The players of any sport generally have to work through the legal system. The judge that got baseball back was.....Sonia Sotomayor
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Re: Are you Ready for some "Football"!!! NFL Discussion

Postby Dark567 » Tue Mar 01, 2011 3:23 am UTC

Telchar wrote:They can say that but unless they can prove it, or that in some way is negotiating in bad faith, then nothing will come of it. The only way this could get resolved without the courts deciding it (well...not entirely accurate) is if the upcoming suit about the TV contracts gets ruled in the players favor ie: the owners don't have a 4 billion dollar fund they can draw on courtesy of the broadcast networks. That would at least put pressure on both sides to get something done.
I have a hard time seeing that suit going in favor of the players though. I am not sure the NFL doesn't have something, they players have already deunionized and immediately reunionized after a deal, that seems to be at least some evidence against them. And does anyone really think that won't be the result of a decertification? I guess its not enough evidence to be beyond a reasonable doubt, but thats certainly not a requirement for a civil suit.
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Re: Are you Ready for some "Football"!!! NFL Discussion

Postby bentheimmigrant » Wed Mar 02, 2011 2:03 pm UTC

The union have won the court case over the TV contracts. Most importantly, the judge believed that they had adequately demonstrated that the league was working with a view to locking out the players at the time of the contracts, in negotiating a deal that did not maximise profits, but maintained payment to the league during a lockout. They had a legal obligation to work in the best interest of the players as well as the league. So I guess this has the potential to dramatically change the leverage that the NFL has in the talks - there may be hope yet.
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Re: Are you Ready for some "Football"!!! NFL Discussion

Postby Telchar » Wed Mar 02, 2011 4:13 pm UTC

Dark567 wrote:I have a hard time seeing that suit going in favor of the players though. I am not sure the NFL doesn't have something, they players have already deunionized and immediately reunionized after a deal, that seems to be at least some evidence against them. And does anyone really think that won't be the result of a decertification? I guess its not enough evidence to be beyond a reasonable doubt, but thats certainly not a requirement for a civil suit.


Right but, again, you have to prove that decertifying and recertifying somehow violates the players end of the CBA or violates labor laws. I think it would easy to get around (We decertified because we lost faith in the union to persue a new CBA and if we reunionize it's because we feel more confident in our union to deal with issues while a CBA is in place). They could win the case but I'm unfamiliar what statutes the union would be in violation of.

The case that the players won is interesting and I do think it will force a deal sooner assuming an appeal will be lengthy. However I don't expect it to shorten the the timetable significantly. While it would be nice for owners to be able to dip into that pool it's still a loan with interest and ultimately incurs a net loss. I don't think they would've wanted to dip into that pool unless they anticipated a complete lack of a season.
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Re: Are you Ready for some "Football"!!! NFL Discussion

Postby bentheimmigrant » Thu Mar 03, 2011 11:15 pm UTC

The owners and union have agreed to a 24 hour extension. Being an optimist desperate to have some football this year, I'd like to think that this is very good news - there was no real need from a PR perspective, as the sides had been negotiating for a week under Cohen. So hopefully this is an indicator that actual progress is being made.
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