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Joe Wilson apologized; Move on.

Posted: Wed Sep 16, 2009 2:37 pm UTC
by tzvibish
Congress needs to stop whining. Joe Wilson apologized for his outburst. He picked up the phone, called the president, and apologized. The president accepted his apology, and said he wanted to move on. (Source)

So, why can't Congress grow up and move on? Why do they need another apology? It's childish.

Or it's a political move aimed at the Republican Party. Either way, as I said, childish.

Re: Joe Wilson apologized; Move on.

Posted: Wed Sep 16, 2009 2:41 pm UTC
by Belial
Because apologizing in private for something you said in public is a bullshit move. Especially if you're going to keep backing up the thing you said in the public sphere.

So let's flip your framing: why is Wilson so resistant to apologizing in public? If it's so fucking trivial, why demand that the liberals suck it up and move on, why not insist that the conservative suck it up and apologize for his boorishness if nothing else? Why can't he grow up and move on? It's childish.

Re: Joe Wilson apologized; Move on.

Posted: Wed Sep 16, 2009 2:45 pm UTC
by Lord Aurora
Probably because he apologized to the person he accused of lying. Personally. Because the person he accused of lying is really the only person who should take offense here.

Honestly, it probably takes more balls to call up the leader of the free world (or whatever we call the Prez nowadays) and say "Hey man, I fucked up, sorry" than it does to call a press conference and perform political acrobatics to please all of the right people.

Re: Joe Wilson apologized; Move on.

Posted: Wed Sep 16, 2009 2:47 pm UTC
by Angua
I agree with Belial, if you do something in public you should apologise for it in public. There are plenty of people who will have heard about the public comment and not heard about him apologise, or Obama ask for an apology, and so assume that it was true.

Re: Joe Wilson apologized; Move on.

Posted: Wed Sep 16, 2009 2:52 pm UTC
by Belial
Lord Aurora wrote:Probably because he apologized to the person he accused of lying. Personally. Because the person he accused of lying is really the only person who should take offense here.

Honestly, it probably takes more balls to call up the leader of the free world (or whatever we call the Prez nowadays) and say "Hey man, I fucked up, sorry" than it does to call a press conference and perform political acrobatics to please all of the right people.


Honestly, no. If you disrespect me in public, I expect an apology from you in public. Especially if we're both politicians, because you know damn well how important appearances are in that business and I know damn well what you're trying to pull with your "insult in public, apologize in private" plan. Because hypothetical you and hypothetical I both know damned well it's not about our personal relationship.

Personally, I consider it a token of the president's incredible graciousness that he didn't tell Wilson to just fuck off until he's ready to say it on national television.

And likewise, it's not like he pissed off just the president here. He was speaking about that bill and that plan, so accusing him of lying was an insult to everyone involved.

Ninja'd by angua.

Re: Joe Wilson apologized; Move on.

Posted: Wed Sep 16, 2009 2:56 pm UTC
by Endless Mike
Lord Aurora wrote:Probably because he apologized to the person he accused of lying. Personally. Because the person he accused of lying is really the only person who should take offense here.

But he didn't. He apologized to Rahm Emanuel who relayed a message. In any case, if he's apologizing for a public act, he should do so in public.

Re: Joe Wilson apologized; Move on.

Posted: Wed Sep 16, 2009 2:58 pm UTC
by tzvibish
I don't know, when the President publicly says he accepted the apology and that we should move on, I think we should move on.

He wasn't calling the plan's writers liars, he was calling Obama a liar for misrepresenting what was really in the plan. This is not a healthcare thread so I don't really care what was in it right now.

To me, it sounds like congress is saying: "You insulted our President in public. We know you apologized and he accepted the apology, but we want to hear it anyways. We also don't care that the president said to move on. Our politics come first."

It sounds wrong to me.

Re: Joe Wilson apologized; Move on.

Posted: Wed Sep 16, 2009 2:59 pm UTC
by Lord Aurora
I wouldn't have taken a public apology any more seriously than a private one (here we're talking about real me, not hypothetical politician me).

We're already talking about a field fraught with lies and deception and misdirection, I'm surprised that people are so pissed about this. I expect politicians to lie, and I expect other politicians to accuse them of it regardless of whether or not it actually happened, and I expect people to throw hissy fits in politics. Just because it happened on live national TV does not change the incident's noteworthiness for me.

Re: Joe Wilson apologized; Move on.

Posted: Wed Sep 16, 2009 3:00 pm UTC
by Aikanaro
If he apologized in public, wouldn't it 1: Seem like grandstanding and/or insincere, and 2: Wouldn't that be requiring Obama to give up some of HIS valuable time?

Re: Joe Wilson apologized; Move on.

Posted: Wed Sep 16, 2009 3:00 pm UTC
by Moo
To me, it sounds like congress is saying: "You insulted someone in public. We know you apologized and he accepted the apology, but that was super gracious and more than you deserve, so we want you to do what's right anyways. We also don't care that the president is a far bigger person than most. The right thing to do comes first since you did it in a public figure's capacity and it would better serve the public."

Re: Joe Wilson apologized; Move on.

Posted: Wed Sep 16, 2009 3:01 pm UTC
by Princess Marzipan
It's not as if Joe Wilson has dropped the issue. He's stoking the fire of false information about this bill by continuing to insist that illegal immigrants will be covered by it. He's STILL calling Obama a liar, after 'apologizing' to him for it, he's just not using exactly those words. (Not that calling the president a liar is a bad thing in and of itself, but it's definitely bad when your accusation is so fucking easy to point to proof against.)

If you want to apologize for something and move past it, you apologize for it and then move past it. Joe Wilson hasn't done that

tzvibish wrote:He wasn't calling the plan's writers liars, he was calling Obama a liar for misrepresenting what was really in the plan. This is not a healthcare thread so I don't really care what was in it right now.

Oh you can fuck right off with that - making the actual contents of the bill taboo for discussion? "What was in it" is pretty fucking important when it DIRECTLY CONTRADICTS Wilson's baseless accusation.

Re: Joe Wilson apologized; Move on.

Posted: Wed Sep 16, 2009 3:04 pm UTC
by Angua
Aikanaro wrote:If he apologized in public, wouldn't it 1: Seem like grandstanding and/or insincere, and 2: Wouldn't that be requiring Obama to give up some of HIS valuable time?
1) He was grandstanding anyway when he shouted out that the president was a liar when he wasn't lying 2) No, as he can do some sort of press-release where he just stands up with cameras on him saying, 'I would like to apologise as it was wrong, the president was not lying'

To some people, the president quietly accepting a private apology may seem like him sweeping it under the rug and hoping that no one will notice he was actually lying.

Re: Joe Wilson apologized; Move on.

Posted: Wed Sep 16, 2009 3:06 pm UTC
by Belial
Princess Marzipan wrote:It's not as if Joe Wilson has dropped the issue. He's stoking the fire of false information about this bill by continuing to insist that illegal immigrants will be covered by it. He's STILL calling Obama a liar, after 'apologizing' to him for it, he's just not using exactly those words. (Not that calling the president a liar is a bad thing in and of itself, but it's definitely bad when your accusation is so fucking easy to point to proof against.)

If you want to apologize for something and move past it, you apologize for it and then move past it. Joe Wilson hasn't done that


Yeah. Which is really why he's resisting a public apology, because it would kindof make him look like a two-faced little shit.

Y'know. More than he already does.

Re: Joe Wilson apologized; Move on.

Posted: Wed Sep 16, 2009 3:06 pm UTC
by JBJ
The House is somewhat obligated to take some kind of action.
Under section 370 of the House Rules and Manual it has been held that a Member could:

* refer to the government as “something hated, something oppressive.”
* refer to the President as “using legislative or judicial pork.”
* refer to a Presidential message as a “disgrace to the country.”
* refer to unnamed officials as “our half-baked nitwits handling foreign affairs.”

Likewise, it has been held that a member could not:

* call the President a “liar.”
* call the President a “hypocrite.”
* describe the President’s veto of a bill as “cowardly.”
* charge that the President has been “intellectually dishonest.”
* refer to the President as “giving aid and comfort to the enemy.”
* refer to alleged “sexual misconduct on the President’s part.”

Re: Joe Wilson apologized; Move on.

Posted: Wed Sep 16, 2009 3:06 pm UTC
by Aikanaro
for 2, I'll accept your point, I thought that by "Public" they meant apologize to him face-to-face, but in a public forum. For 1 tho, I know he was initially grandstanding, but I didn't think more of the same would necessarily make things right, but whatev.

EDIT: Responding to Angua, if it wasn't clear.

Re: Joe Wilson apologized; Move on.

Posted: Wed Sep 16, 2009 3:07 pm UTC
by Crius
Belial wrote:Because apologizing in private for something you said in public is a bullshit move. Especially if you're going to keep backing up the thing you said in the public sphere.


Any apology would be for the inappropriate outburst, not the opinions he holds - so whether he continues to back his opinion or not is irrelevant to his apology.

I do agree that he should give a public apology. The House has officially rebuked him now, though, so hopefully the matter is over.

Re: Joe Wilson apologized; Move on.

Posted: Wed Sep 16, 2009 3:08 pm UTC
by MrGee
I would find it pretty hard to accept any apology at all, given how premeditated that comment seems.

Re: Joe Wilson apologized; Move on.

Posted: Wed Sep 16, 2009 3:13 pm UTC
by tzvibish
Princess Marzipan wrote:It's not as if Joe Wilson has dropped the issue. He's stoking the fire of false information about this bill by continuing to insist that illegal immigrants will be covered by it. He's STILL calling Obama a liar, after 'apologizing' to him for it, he's just not using exactly those words. (Not that calling the president a liar is a bad thing in and of itself, but it's definitely bad when your accusation is so fucking easy to point to proof against.)

If you want to apologize for something and move past it, you apologize for it and then move past it. Joe Wilson hasn't done that

tzvibish wrote:He wasn't calling the plan's writers liars, he was calling Obama a liar for misrepresenting what was really in the plan. This is not a healthcare thread so I don't really care what was in it right now.

Oh you can fuck right off with that - making the actual contents of the bill taboo for discussion? "What was in it" is pretty fucking important when it DIRECTLY CONTRADICTS Wilson's baseless accusation.


Except for the fact that it is completely irrelevant to the issue of his outburst during the speech. His apology has nothing to do with whether or not the healthcare plan works. It has to do with the fact that he called the president a liar. He doesn't have to apologize for believing that; just yelling it out during a speech.
Crius wrote:
Belial wrote:Because apologizing in private for something you said in public is a bullshit move. Especially if you're going to keep backing up the thing you said in the public sphere.


Any apology would be for the inappropriate outburst, not the opinions he holds - so whether he continues to back his opinion or not is irrelevant to his apology.

I do agree that he should give a public apology. The House has officially rebuked him now, though, so hopefully the matter is over.


Actually, this is exactly why I brought up the issue.

Re: Joe Wilson apologized; Move on.

Posted: Wed Sep 16, 2009 3:20 pm UTC
by tzvibish
Moo wrote:To me, it sounds like congress is saying: "You insulted someone in public. We know you apologized and he accepted the apology, but that was super gracious and more than you deserve, so we want you to do what's right anyways. We also don't care that the president is a far bigger person than most. The right thing to do comes first since you did it in a public figure's capacity and it would better serve the public."


That's a pretty humble stance congress is taking. "The president is a better human being than all of us, so even though he said move on, he didn't really mean it. He's just too good of a person to make an issue out of it." I really don't think Congress thinks along those lines. It would be nice, but I highly doubt that it works that way.

Re: Joe Wilson apologized; Move on.

Posted: Wed Sep 16, 2009 3:24 pm UTC
by Moo
Oh, I see. Your interpretation of what other people are thinking although you can't possibly know is obviously right, and mine wrong. Got it.

Re: Joe Wilson apologized; Move on.

Posted: Wed Sep 16, 2009 3:26 pm UTC
by Dauric
A public apology would in some way imply an apology to the citizens of the United States for acting like a dick in front of us all in one of our collectively most hallowed places.

Re: Joe Wilson apologized; Move on.

Posted: Wed Sep 16, 2009 3:30 pm UTC
by Aetius
Wait, congress is on its high horse about lying? The US Congress? The legislative body currently sitting in session in the US Capitol building?

Well that's rich.

Re: Joe Wilson apologized; Move on.

Posted: Wed Sep 16, 2009 3:30 pm UTC
by Belial
Dauric wrote:A public apology would in some way imply an apology to the citizens of the United States for acting like a dick in front of us all in one of our collectively most hallowed places.


Yeah, that too. Generally, heckling the president at a congressional address is considered a pretty big breach of decorum.

And the thing about rules of decorum and etiquette is that breaking them is an embarassment and an insult to everyone present, not just the person you're being a dick directly to.

Re: Joe Wilson apologized; Move on.

Posted: Wed Sep 16, 2009 3:41 pm UTC
by Owijad
Lord Aurora wrote:Probably because he apologized to the person he accused of lying. Personally. Because the person he accused of lying is really the only person who should take offense here.


Really? I hate to turn to argument by metaphor here, but if I stand up in a crowded restaurant and yell at the waiter, "This beef tastes like shit!", it's okay as long as afterwards I call up his buddy and ask him to apologize for me? I don't owe an apology to the chef, or the other diners, or maybe my date? Since I was only talking to the waiter, he's the only one who should be offended.


It's a disturbing way for any adult to act, let alone one responsible for the fate of my healthcare, or, say, sending my country to war. His behavior embarrassed and offended me, personally. I'd kind of like a sincere apology.

Re: Joe Wilson apologized; Move on.

Posted: Wed Sep 16, 2009 3:54 pm UTC
by tzvibish
Moo wrote:Oh, I see. Your interpretation of what other people are thinking although you can't possibly know is obviously right, and mine wrong. Got it.


Not obviously right, just probably right. At least in this case.

Also, as I read through the news reports, I'm seeing that he released a statement that contained his apology immediately after the event. Was this not public (not rhetorical, I really don't know)? Does 6the apology also have to be spoken in front of the public?

Re: Joe Wilson apologized; Move on.

Posted: Wed Sep 16, 2009 3:55 pm UTC
by frezik
Belial wrote:Personally, I consider it a token of the president's incredible graciousness that he didn't tell Wilson to just fuck off until he's ready to say it on national television.


But then we wouldn't get this excelent photo:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/rhyno/3904852791/

Pelosi and Joe look like they just crapped a brick. Yet somehow, Obama looks like he's thinking "yes, everything is going according to plan".

Re: Joe Wilson apologized; Move on.

Posted: Wed Sep 16, 2009 3:56 pm UTC
by Moo
tzvibish wrote:Not obviously right, just probably right. At least in this case.
Oh, that's it! Your assessment of the probability of one meaning over another is right and mine wrong, though both are equally baseless and subjective. NOW I understand :roll:


edited to fix typo

Re: Joe Wilson apologized; Move on.

Posted: Wed Sep 16, 2009 3:58 pm UTC
by Belial
Man, Joe and Nancy look like they're parents whose kid just did something wildly inappropriate at a party.

How embarassing.

Re: Joe Wilson apologized; Move on.

Posted: Wed Sep 16, 2009 4:05 pm UTC
by pseudoidiot
Time out in the corner?

Re: Joe Wilson apologized; Move on.

Posted: Wed Sep 16, 2009 4:05 pm UTC
by Dauric
tzvibish wrote:Also, as I read through the news reports, I'm seeing that he released a statement that contained his apology immediately after the event. Was this not public (not rhetorical, I really don't know)? Does 6the apology also have to be spoken in front of the public?


Yes it does actually. It's a courtesy thing, like breaking up with someone in person rather than over the phone or by texting, or how we feel better being fired by our boss in-person rather than by having the pink-slip taped to our monitors, and a couple of security guys standing by to escort us out of the building. Even in our age of electronic communication we have not disregarded the value of someone showing us their face, the value of being able to see their expression and their one of voice.

Now I don't think that he needs to go to every American in person and apologize (although that would be interesting), but yeah, get him in front of the camera and let us -see- and -hear- him being apologetic. I want to see the expression on his face,the tone of his voice, and the language he presents with his body when he says it.

Re: Joe Wilson apologized; Move on.

Posted: Wed Sep 16, 2009 4:06 pm UTC
by Belial
pseudoidiot wrote:Time out in the corner?


Or a spanking of some sort.

Re: Joe Wilson apologized; Move on.

Posted: Wed Sep 16, 2009 4:08 pm UTC
by tzvibish
Moo wrote:
tzvibish wrote:Not obviously right, just probably right. At least in this case.
Oh, that's it! Your assessment of the probability of one meaning over another is right and mine wrong, though both are equally baseless and subjective. NOW I understand :roll:


edited to fix typo


If congress was really so good-natured and concerned for moral responsibility, they would realize that they are wasting people's time and money by making this a lot bigger than it needs to be. When the president says "Move on", he usually means "Move on". Congress has much more important things to be doing than whining about a public vs. private apology. If you're offended to the point of demanding public apology over outbursts of politicians, then good luck to you. You will be living a very offended life. There's nothing constructive about any of this. That's what "move on" means.
Dauric wrote:
tzvibish wrote:Also, as I read through the news reports, I'm seeing that he released a statement that contained his apology immediately after the event. Was this not public (not rhetorical, I really don't know)? Does 6the apology also have to be spoken in front of the public?


Yes it does actually. It's a courtesy thing, like breaking up with someone in person rather than over the phone or by texting, or how we feel better being fired by our boss in-person rather than by having the pink-slip taped to our monitors, and a couple of security guys standing by to escort us out of the building. Even in our age of electronic communication we have not disregarded the value of someone showing us their face, the value of being able to see their expression and their one of voice.

Now I don't think that he needs to go to every American in person and apologize (although that would be interesting), but yeah, get him in front of the camera and let us -see- and -hear- him being apologetic. I want to see the expression on his face,the tone of his voice, and the language he presents with his body when he says it.


Why? What will anyone gain by this. Will it convince you that it's sincere? Unless he actually breaks down in tears and begs for forgiveness from the American people, he will just be reading the statement he already released. Not too convincing. Let's say it is convincing. Are people really going to let him off the hook once he apologizes?

Re: Joe Wilson apologized; Move on.

Posted: Wed Sep 16, 2009 4:09 pm UTC
by JBJ
Belial wrote:
pseudoidiot wrote:Time out in the corner?


Or a spanking of some sort.

Break out the wiffle bats!

Re: Joe Wilson apologized; Move on.

Posted: Wed Sep 16, 2009 4:09 pm UTC
by Owijad
Okay, lest I stop ranting:

Why did he even say it? The only explanations I can think of are that he was genuinely angry about what Obama was saying, or that it was calculated to appeal to his base.

If listening to a speech about healthcare gets him so worked up he can't contain his rage, that bodes poorly for his future success in this career. That act works for the shills on TV who just *sniff* love their *sniff* country so much, not people with actual responsibilities.
Or was he levelheaded when he said it? It was, after all, a pretty good strategic move for selling his base on his support for their cause. If this is the case, we owe it to the future of political discourse to ensure that this move not reward him in any way. We can't let him off easy for sacrificing rationality, civility, and respect in exchange for votes. That is not a path we want to go down.

edit:
Spoiler:
Oh, yeah, and:

"The president said the time for games is over," Wilson said in a speech on the House floor. "[President Obama] graciously accepted my apology, and the issue is over."

You slimy little man.

Re: Joe Wilson apologized; Move on.

Posted: Wed Sep 16, 2009 4:15 pm UTC
by Ixtellor
Belial wrote:Because apologizing in private for something you said in public is a bullshit move. Especially if you're going to keep backing up the thing you said in the public sphere.

Why can't he grow up and move on? It's childish.


What do you consider a public apology?

Joe Wilson is a total douchbag and I hope he gets voted out, but he did issue a public apology.

Would the front page of the New York Times qualify?

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/10/us/po ... ilson.html

This evening I let my emotions get the best of me when listening to the president’s remarks regarding the coverage of illegal immigrants in the health care bill. While I disagree with the president’s statement, my comments were inappropriate and regrettable. I extend sincere apologies to the president for this lack of civility


He did make a public apology, he released it to every single news agency in the nation.
Are you only satisfied if he does a half hour live from his office?

So, since he alrady did what you demand of him... I guess the question is "Who is being childish?"

Ixtellor

P.S. I was able to make that whole post without making a personal attack.

Re: Joe Wilson apologized; Move on.

Posted: Wed Sep 16, 2009 4:16 pm UTC
by Princess Marzipan
Owijad wrote:Really? I hate to turn to argument by metaphor here, but if I stand up in a crowded restaurant and yell at the waiter, "This beef tastes like shit!", it's okay as long as afterwards I call up his buddy and ask him to apologize for me? I don't owe an apology to the chef, or the other diners, or maybe my date? Since I was only talking to the waiter, he's the only one who should be offended.

Actually it's a pretty good representation. Just change "this beef tastes like shit" to the chef saying that "all of our vegan dishes are prepared with the utmost care to avoid contamination by any of the meats in our kitchen" and then you stand up and yell "LLLLIAR!"

Re: Joe Wilson apologized; Move on.

Posted: Wed Sep 16, 2009 4:26 pm UTC
by Belial
Ixtellor wrote:He did make a public apology, he released it to every single news agency in the nation.
Are you only satisfied if he does a half hour live from his office?


Yeah, honestly, I'd prefer a televised apology. Going to a medium with less viewership still seems like a way to weasel out of the spotlight on this one. And one questions, if he's so willing to apologize publicly, why he's dragging his feet now.

So the answer to "who's being childish" is "still him".

P.S. I was able to make that whole post without making a personal attack.


Would you like a cookie?

Re: Joe Wilson apologized; Move on.

Posted: Wed Sep 16, 2009 4:31 pm UTC
by gmalivuk
Ixtellor wrote:
This evening I let my emotions get the best of me when listening to the president’s remarks regarding the coverage of illegal immigrants in the health care bill. While I disagree with the president’s statement, my comments were inappropriate and regrettable. I extend sincere apologies to the president for this lack of civility

He did make a public apology, he released it to every single news agency in the nation.
Are you only satisfied if he does a half hour live from his office?

Ten seconds live would be good enough, if in those ten seconds he apologizes to the American people. Publicly releasing your individual apology to the President is not the same as publicly apologizing to the millions of other people you similarly embarrassed with your stupid comment.

It's like the asshole in the restaurant going and privately apologizing to the waiter, and then having someone else hand out little printed notes to all the customers that include the text of his private apology printed on it. I don't care what he said when apologizing to the waiter. The other patrons deserve to have him apologize *to them* for being an ass to everyone and embarrassing everyone and disturbing everyone's peace.

Re: Joe Wilson apologized; Move on.

Posted: Wed Sep 16, 2009 4:31 pm UTC
by Ixtellor
Belial wrote:So the answer to "who's being childish" is "still him".


He is a straight up douchbag. But he wants to win reelection and is acting in that interest. Being a Republican prick = more votes in SC.

But we, smart people, don't have to follow him down that path and scream "No death panels", when there are no death panels. Like wise, dont' scream "Public Apology" when he already gave one.

Belial wrote:Would you like a cookie?


No, I want you to act like a civil intelligent person with mod status who some young people, for god knows what reason, look up to, instead of a... you know what.


Ixtellor

Re: Joe Wilson apologized; Move on.

Posted: Wed Sep 16, 2009 4:32 pm UTC
by Owijad
Incidentally, what's frustrating isn't that he's not apologizing. It's that he's not really sorry.

(and furthermore hasn't been given any real reason to be)