Humans sicken me [TRIGGER WARNING: RAPE]

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Re: Humans sicken me [TRIGGER WARNING: RAPE]

Postby Box Boy » Fri Oct 30, 2009 8:29 pm UTC

scrovak wrote:
Sockmonkey wrote:Were any of the observers female?

Does it really matter all that much?

Not reakky, but I'd be a bit more disgusted if they were.
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Re: Humans sicken me [TRIGGER WARNING: RAPE]

Postby sophyturtle » Fri Oct 30, 2009 8:30 pm UTC

Everything I have seen has only mentioned male participants/spectators.
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Re: Humans sicken me [TRIGGER WARNING: RAPE]

Postby mmmcannibalism » Fri Oct 30, 2009 9:48 pm UTC

sophyturtle wrote:Everything I have seen has only mentioned male participants/spectators.


Though, I doubt they would report if any woman were watching; it doesn't make for a good story if women were watching another woman get raped.(well, maybe a good story but now its about how everyone not just a group is cool)
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Re: Humans sicken me [TRIGGER WARNING: RAPE]

Postby PhoenixEnigma » Fri Oct 30, 2009 10:31 pm UTC

I'm still not sure how to put into words how I feel about this. Normally, I'm pretty pragmatic and utilitarian with my thoughts on crime and punishment, but in this case I've got some pretty deep urges to the contrary. I'm also deeply, deeply unnerved.

On a somewhat better note, it looks like the victim is doing better physically, at least - she was released from hosptial Wednesday. I imagine she still has a long, long road ahead of her, but she's well enough to be at home, at least. Also, according to this NPR transcript, it looks like they might charge some of the bystanders with aiding and abetting. Which, personally, I consider a good thing. As well, those charged are, apparently, being tried as adults - something I was wondering about, and am glad to hear.
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Re: Humans sicken me [TRIGGER WARNING: RAPE]

Postby Marbas » Fri Oct 30, 2009 10:41 pm UTC

Given the prevalence of rape in our culture. At least, according to most of the sources cited on this board, I'm interested in what this says about how many men are rapists. We have many statistics on the proportion of rape victims, but if we are going to look at the violence against women as a men's issue as well, wouldn't this statistic also be important? Although I imagine it would be much much much harder to obtain.

Also, another issue I am interested in, when people are skeptical of women saying they were raped, how often are the people they tell mutual acquaintances or friends with their rapist? Because I think part of this "Woman are liars WRT rape" idea comes from the fact that it's easier to believe that one of your friends/acquaintances is a horrible liar than another of your friends/acquaintances is a horrible horrible rapist. And that is happens precisely because rape is a horrible crime. It's like trying to convince someone that someone else is a murderer, the most common reaction is going to be skepticism. And, if most people aren't really aware at all of how common rape is, then it seems like skepticism would actually be the logical response. If this is the case, it seems like simply making people AWARE of those statistics would be one of the easiest ways to alleviate that problem. It would certainly be far easier than trying to overturn some monolithic beast called rape culture.
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Re: Humans sicken me [TRIGGER WARNING: RAPE]

Postby gmalivuk » Fri Oct 30, 2009 10:52 pm UTC

Marbas wrote:Given the prevalence of rape in our culture. At least, according to most of the sources cited on this board, I'm interested in what this says about how many men are rapists. We have many statistics on the proportion of rape victims, but if we are going to look at the violence against women as a men's issue as well, wouldn't this statistic also be important? Although I imagine it would be much much much harder to obtain.

They are, but there are still such statistics out there. This pdf suggests between 5% and 15%, depending on the study and on precisely what was being measured (i.e. whether completed or attempted, whether rape or sexual assault in general, etc.)

Also, another issue I am interested in, when people are skeptical of women saying they were raped, how often are the people they tell mutual acquaintances or friends with their rapist?

I'm sure that's sometimes the case, but certainly every bit of skepticism at a news story isn't explainable this way, and I've heard plenty of other accounts of someone not being believed about a rape even without ever telling anyone who the rapist was. So I doubt that plays a terribly large role, really.

And, if most people aren't really aware at all of how common rape is, then it seems like skepticism would actually be the logical response.

Well yeah. If you're ignorant, of course you're going to react differently to things than if you know what the hell you're talking about. But the problem is that the sorts of people who are skeptical of individual rape claims tend to doubt the statistics, too. Talk more about the statistics and a lot of them will just talk more about how those are numbers commonly bandied about without being based on any real information, or some such bullshit.
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Re: Humans sicken me [TRIGGER WARNING: RAPE]

Postby Maduyn » Sat Oct 31, 2009 1:08 am UTC

Just to change speeds here.

What do you all think the appropriate actions are in so far as:
Prevention
Prosecution
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Re: Humans sicken me [TRIGGER WARNING: RAPE]

Postby Marbas » Sat Oct 31, 2009 1:39 am UTC

But the problem is that the sorts of people who are skeptical of individual rape claims tend to doubt the statistics, too. Talk more about the statistics and a lot of them will just talk more about how those are numbers commonly bandied about without being based on any real information, or some such bullshit.


Well...that blows sweaty alligator chunks.
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Re: Humans sicken me [TRIGGER WARNING: RAPE]

Postby Amarantha » Sat Oct 31, 2009 5:47 am UTC

Marbas wrote:Given the prevalence of rape in our culture. At least, according to most of the sources cited on this board, I'm interested in what this says about how many men are rapists.
I once read a statistic about potential rapists, in which 30% of male university students (in the US, iirc) answered "Yes" to the question, "Would you rape a woman if you thought you'd get away with it?". And as an illustration of society's fucked up ideas about what rape even is, when the question was changed to, "Would you force a woman to have sex if you thought you'd get away with it?", 59% of respondents answered "Yes".

Disclaimer: I have no citation for this, as I'm not about to google "would you rape a woman" from my office desk. But I'm pretty sure I read it in The Beauty Myth by Naomi Wolf.

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Re: Humans sicken me [TRIGGER WARNING: RAPE]

Postby TheSkyMovesSideways » Sat Oct 31, 2009 6:33 am UTC

Amarantha wrote:I once read a statistic about potential rapists, in which 30% of male university students (in the US, iirc) answered "Yes" to the question, "Would you rape a woman if you thought you'd get away with it?". And as an illustration of society's fucked up ideas about what rape even is, when the question was changed to, "Would you force a woman to have sex if you thought you'd get away with it?", 59% of respondents answered "Yes".

Disclaimer: I have no citation for this, as I'm not about to google "would you rape a woman" from my office desk. But I'm pretty sure I read it in The Beauty Myth by Naomi Wolf.

Google delivers: Briere, J. and Malamuth, N. M., 'Self reported likelihood of sexually aggressive behaviour', Journal of Research in Personality vol 17 (1983)

The questions assessed "likelihood to rape" and "likelihood to use sexual force". (They seem to define "sexual force" as "Forcing a female to do something she really didn't want to do".) 28% of participants indicated some likelihood of both rape and sexual force and 30% indicated some likelihood of force but not rape (plus an additional 2% indicating likelihood of rape but not sexual force, however that would work). So yeah, 60% identified as potential rapists. Pretty worrying.

(The overall goal of the study seems to be more about males' attitudes toward rape (victim blaming, belief of rape claims, etc) compared to their likelihood to commit rape, not so much about perceptions of a difference between rape and sexual force. In fact, it looks like even the researchers considered "sexual force" and rape to be different.)
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Re: Humans sicken me [TRIGGER WARNING: RAPE]

Postby (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻ » Sat Oct 31, 2009 5:35 pm UTC

Marbas wrote:Given the prevalence of rape in our culture. At least, according to most of the sources cited on this board, I'm interested in what this says about how many men are rapists. We have many statistics on the proportion of rape victims, but if we are going to look at the violence against women as a men's issue as well, wouldn't this statistic also be important? Although I imagine it would be much much much harder to obtain.

Also, another issue I am interested in, when people are skeptical of women saying they were raped, how often are the people they tell mutual acquaintances or friends with their rapist? Because I think part of this "Woman are liars WRT rape" idea comes from the fact that it's easier to believe that one of your friends/acquaintances is a horrible liar than another of your friends/acquaintances is a horrible horrible rapist. And that is happens precisely because rape is a horrible crime. It's like trying to convince someone that someone else is a murderer, the most common reaction is going to be skepticism. And, if most people aren't really aware at all of how common rape is, then it seems like skepticism would actually be the logical response. If this is the case, it seems like simply making people AWARE of those statistics would be one of the easiest ways to alleviate that problem. It would certainly be far easier than trying to overturn some monolithic beast called rape culture.

I very much wish that this were a more common discussion. I was raped in high school and my very best friend refused flat out to even stop being friends with the guy who raped me. It's apparently much easier to imagine that rape is just some unfortunate misunderstanding than a huge societal flaw in which we never hold rapists accountable, on a personal level. Like when I see the article about that sports team what barricaded two women in a room and gang raped them. "this was so out of character!" No, it probably wasn't. It would just be terrible, I guess, if we actually force these people to take responsibility for these actions as one person to another. "hey, you're a rapist, did you know that? I'm going to never speak to you again ok? Great."
It's like the rest of society is the same thing as these spectators. We're watching our friends be raped and brutalized and we're not doing anything about it.

I talk about these things daily with my friends, women and men, but there is a huge divide between the two. Most of my female friends are public survivors of rape or sexual assault. Most of those who talk about their rape admit that it has happened more than once. Not one man I know has ever taken responsibility publicly for such a crime, even long after the statute of limitations is past.* I feel odd having these conversations, because i always get this mental image in my head where I'm on a boat, and everyone I know is standing in the middle. I ask all the women who will admit to having been raped to stand on the port side of the boat, and it begins to list to port... and if I say then, "all men who have raped or sexually assaulted or forced a woman move to starboard" and nobody moves. Maybe one person.
So the port side of the boat is underwater and the women are drowning. And all the men are standing in the middle saying, "hey, how come nobody ever taught you how to swim?"


*I don't think I actually have friends who would have to admit to this now, but this is undoubtedly self selection, now that I am a young professional person of 28. Self selection of friends who maybe were/weren't rapists in say, High School and College? Not quite as great, I assure you. I'm 100% sure at least two close friends I went to high school with that didn't rape *me* are in fact rapists, upon thinking about the way they acted in retrospect. I try not to think about the others, but from what I remember... I'm really glad I was shunned by most people in high school. But if someone said to me 'your friend _____ is a rapist' I would probably be surprised, but not entirely skeptical.

**Edited twice cause I"m having problems with words this morning.
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Re: Humans sicken me [TRIGGER WARNING: RAPE]

Postby Hawknc » Sun Nov 01, 2009 1:31 am UTC

Meaux_Pas wrote:I feel odd having these conversations, because i always get this mental image in my head where I'm on a boat, and everyone I know is standing in the middle. I ask all the women who will admit to having been raped to stand on the port side of the boat, and it begins to list to port... and if I say then, "all men who have raped or sexually assaulted or forced a woman move to starboard" and nobody moves. Maybe one person.
So the port side of the boat is underwater and the women are drowning. And all the men are standing in the middle saying, "hey, how come nobody ever taught you how to swim?"

Oooooohhhh. NOW I get the cruise ship thing.

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Re: Humans sicken me [TRIGGER WARNING: RAPE]

Postby Owijad » Sun Nov 01, 2009 2:35 am UTC

I should mention that observer inaction in the face of blatant brutality is a well documented psychological phenomenon, that provokes a massive "what's wrong with humans" every time it hits the news.

The theory is that when a single person encounters an emergency situation, they have to assess the problem, make a decision, and act. But when three people encounter the situation, they pay as much attention to each other as to the crisis, and base their decisions as much upon each other as upon the emergency. As they look around, the other people present are pretty laid back, because they're busy looking at the people around them rather than acting. Each individually concludes that the others' inaction is evidence of non-crisis. This is compounded by deferment of responsibility, a la "There are three people here, why do I have to be the one to deal with this? Both of them have probably called the cops already."

The evidence indicates that this glitch in human rationality gives us a responsibility in potential crises. Upon witnessing a suspect situation, we have to process, cognitively, if something bears the symptoms of an emergency, and then process, cognitively, how we ought to respond to those symptoms. The gut just isn't good enough. As a victim in a crisis, the best way to provoke a crowd is to make it undeniable that the situation is in fact an emergency, despite how witnesses are behaving (say, by loudly stating it as such), and then to point out a single person whose responsibility it is to take action.

Before throwing stones at the bystanders, it's important to note that (by my read through), no one has brought this fact up in the thread. If you didn't know this circumstance happens with consistent regularity in this type of environment, how were they supposed to?

Cultural attitudes towards rape don't help the situation a lick, but this happens every day with murder, muggings, strokes, bullies, and beatings.
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Re: Humans sicken me [TRIGGER WARNING: RAPE]

Postby mmmcannibalism » Sun Nov 01, 2009 4:57 am UTC

Spoiler:
Owijad wrote:I should mention that observer inaction in the face of blatant brutality is a well documented psychological phenomenon, that provokes a massive "what's wrong with humans" every time it hits the news.

The theory is that when a single person encounters an emergency situation, they have to assess the problem, make a decision, and act. But when three people encounter the situation, they pay as much attention to each other as to the crisis, and base their decisions as much upon each other as upon the emergency. As they look around, the other people present are pretty laid back, because they're busy looking at the people around them rather than acting. Each individually concludes that the others' inaction is evidence of non-crisis. This is compounded by deferment of responsibility, a la "There are three people here, why do I have to be the one to deal with this? Both of them have probably called the cops already."

The evidence indicates that this glitch in human rationality gives us a responsibility in potential crises. Upon witnessing a suspect situation, we have to process, cognitively, if something bears the symptoms of an emergency, and then process, cognitively, how we ought to respond to those symptoms. The gut just isn't good enough. As a victim in a crisis, the best way to provoke a crowd is to make it undeniable that the situation is in fact an emergency, despite how witnesses are behaving (say, by loudly stating it as such), and then to point out a single person whose responsibility it is to take action.

Before throwing stones at the bystanders, it's important to note that (by my read through), no one has brought this fact up in the thread. If you didn't know this circumstance happens with consistent regularity in this type of environment, how were they supposed to?

Cultural attitudes towards rape don't help the situation a lick, but this happens every day with murder, muggings, strokes, bullies, and beatings.


Honestly, that doesn't change my opinion of the situation. I don't say murderers aren't that bad because there are a lot of them.

I do hate to sound like an ass about that, but its my genuine thought on the matter. Maybe it is because I am worried I would do the same thing and want to sound self righteous, but I refuse to justify people being cowards.
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Re: Humans sicken me [TRIGGER WARNING: RAPE]

Postby gmalivuk » Sun Nov 01, 2009 2:39 pm UTC

mmmcannibalism wrote:I refuse to justify people being cowards.

owijad's post didn't justify them being cowards, it just explained it. It explained that someone doesn't have to be an obviously horrible malicious person to stand idly by while something terrible happens, because *everyone's* mind tends to work that same way.
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Re: Humans sicken me [TRIGGER WARNING: RAPE]

Postby mmmcannibalism » Sun Nov 01, 2009 6:26 pm UTC

gmalivuk wrote:
mmmcannibalism wrote:I refuse to justify people being cowards.

owijad's post didn't justify them being cowards, it just explained it. It explained that someone doesn't have to be an obviously horrible malicious person to stand idly by while something terrible happens, because *everyone's* mind tends to work that same way.


It was in response to
Spoiler:
Before throwing stones at the bystanders, it's important to note that (by my read through), no one has brought this fact up in the thread. If you didn't know this circumstance happens with consistent regularity in this type of environment, how were they supposed to?


Which suggests that we shouldn't critizice them for not doing anything just because its "normal".
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Re: Humans sicken me [TRIGGER WARNING: RAPE]

Postby General_Norris » Sun Nov 01, 2009 9:43 pm UTC

There has been a similar case recently in Spain. Sad, sad thing.

@Owijad

I have seen this happen quite a lot with fire alarms. It always sickened me when the teacher refused to stop teaching because there might be a fire. I tell you, it will happen some day and everyone at my old school will die. And there's nothing worse than being laughed at because you were the only one who stood up.

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Re: Humans sicken me [TRIGGER WARNING: RAPE]

Postby Owijad » Mon Nov 02, 2009 2:11 am UTC

mmmcannibalism wrote:It was in response to
Spoiler:
Before throwing stones at the bystanders, it's important to note that (by my read through), no one has brought this fact up in the thread. If you didn't know this circumstance happens with consistent regularity in this type of environment, how were they supposed to?

Which suggests that we shouldn't critizice them for not doing anything just because it's "normal".


That makes sense. Really though, my point is that while their actions were unacceptable, we get nothing out of vilifying those involved. They weren't being awful humans, they were just being humans. Pointing them out as some special brand of subhuman scum divorces them from ourselves in a way which is precisely the opposite of helpful.
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Re: Humans sicken me [TRIGGER WARNING: RAPE]

Postby podbaydoor » Mon Nov 02, 2009 2:58 am UTC

So, they're humans. We can acknowledge that. We can also acknowledge that they committed reprehensible scumsucking horrific actions. Even if this phenomenon happens repeatedly all the time, so what? That doesn't mean we shouldn't strive to behave differently or change the culture in which people invite other people to a gangrape like it's some frakking party.
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Re: Humans sicken me [TRIGGER WARNING: RAPE]

Postby mmmcannibalism » Mon Nov 02, 2009 2:58 am UTC

Spoiler:
Owijad wrote:
mmmcannibalism wrote:It was in response to
[spoiler]
Before throwing stones at the bystanders, it's important to note that (by my read through), no one has brought this fact up in the thread. If you didn't know this circumstance happens with consistent regularity in this type of environment, how were they supposed to?

Which suggests that we shouldn't critizice them for not doing anything just because it's "normal".


That makes sense. Really though, my point is that while their actions were unacceptable, we get nothing out of vilifying those involved. They weren't being awful humans, they were just being humans. Pointing them out as some special brand of subhuman scum divorces them from ourselves in a way which is precisely the opposite of helpful.
[/spoiler]

Agreed, if I said something that implied I was villifying the bystanders my bad. My only point was that I don't consider it acceptable just because other people did the same wrong thing.
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