Kurdish girl killed for marrying a boy of the wrong religion

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Kurdish girl killed for marrying a boy of the wrong religion

Postby ccromwell » Sat May 05, 2007 2:59 am UTC

http://www.aina.org/news/20070425181603.htm

"A 17-year-old girl has been stoned to death in Iraq because she loved a teenage boy of the wrong religion.

As a horrifying video of the stoning went out on the Internet, the British arm of Amnesty International condemned the death of Du’a Khalil Aswad as "an abhorrent murder" and demanded that her killers be brought to justice.

Reports from Iraq said a local security force witnessed the incident, but did nothing to try to stop it. Now her boyfriend is in hiding in fear for his life.

Miss Aswad, a member of a minority Kurdish religious group called Yezidi, was condemned to death as an "honour killing" by other men in her family and hardline religious leaders because of her relationship with the Sunni Muslim boy.

A large crowd watched as eight or nine men stormed the house and dragged Miss Aswad into the street. There they hurled stones at her for half an hour until she was dead."


I was just curious what you guys think of this, because frankly, I don't have a clue what to think. Keep in mind, also, that the religious conflict in question isn't like a Christian marrying a Buddhist or a Confucianist marrying a Mormon or anything like that - Yazidi, the girl's religion and that which holds a majority among the Kurds, is very similar to Islam in beliefs and practices, meaning it would be more or less analogous to a Baptist marrying a Unitarian or a Catholic.

At the risk of sounding self-centered, though, I guess I feel fortunate to have been born in a part of the world which has gotten past this kind of behavior. Thoughts? The videos do exist, by the way, but I haven't watched any of them and frankly, I don't care to. If anybody wants them, though, I will post the links.
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Postby Hex » Sat May 05, 2007 3:08 am UTC

You know, I just have a feeling this whole middle east thing just isn't going to work. At all.

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Postby Belial » Sat May 05, 2007 3:12 am UTC

Yeah. Let's can it for a bad idea, spread the population over the rest of the world, and sink it into the sea.
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Postby ccromwell » Sat May 05, 2007 3:17 am UTC

It isn't going to work? A statement like that carries some heavy assumptions with it, one of which is that the Middle East has been working for the last several decades.

An assumption which is, to my horror, blatantly false.
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Postby The LuigiManiac » Sat May 05, 2007 3:46 am UTC

Belial wrote:Yeah. Let's can it for a bad idea, spread the population over the rest of the world, and sink it into the sea.


You mean like Usenet?
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Postby 3.14159265... » Sat May 05, 2007 3:54 am UTC

Don't go on an edge against the middle east, the west used to burn heretics at the stake too.

Thats some messed up crap though, also seeing as how there was once a stoning in my city too during the Taleban, I think it was for adultery, I can tell you how messed up it is on a personal level.

THE fucked up part is, the people that do this, then go on and brag, and are ENCOURAGED, and seen as HEROES to the locals.

The way KKK members killing Black teens were seen as a Heroes amongst some Americans not too long ago.
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Postby Hex » Sat May 05, 2007 4:21 am UTC

ccromwell wrote:It isn't going to work? A statement like that carries some heavy assumptions with it, one of which is that the Middle East has been working for the last several decades.

An assumption which is, to my horror, blatantly false.


I don't have much brighter hopes for the rest of the world either, mind you.

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Postby bbctol » Sat May 05, 2007 12:24 pm UTC

I'm horrified, but not that surprised, unfortunately.

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Postby fjafjan » Sat May 05, 2007 3:19 pm UTC

It's bad?

But i think if want to discuss what is causing these growing and already extreme devides between the different groups then we should do that in the Iraq thread.
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Postby SecondTalon » Sat May 05, 2007 3:28 pm UTC

3.14159265... wrote:The way KKK members killing Black teens were seen as a Heroes amongst some Americans not too long ago.


And still seen that way by a (thankfully) small and ignorant section of the American population.

Ignorance is a hell of a drug.

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Postby 3.14159265... » Sat May 05, 2007 3:42 pm UTC

"Knowledge the only good, ignorance the only evil"

I think confucious and socrates both said that independently
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Postby SecondTalon » Sat May 05, 2007 3:42 pm UTC

"Stupid is as stupid does"

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Postby Owijad » Sun May 06, 2007 7:55 pm UTC

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Sorry?
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Postby Alisto » Sun May 06, 2007 8:07 pm UTC

bbctol wrote:I'm horrified, but not that surprised, unfortunately.


+1

As terrible as it is, there's nothing we can do about it*. Those people need to take control of their own lives. I'm fairly sure it's a minority who encourage and commit these acts. However, it's a very aggressive and very outspoken minority, where the majority remains timid and afraid.

*In saying there's nothing we can do about it, I mean that in a practical sense. Short of taking over the countries and enacting a zero-tolerance policy or financing the relocation of anyone who wants to leave the area, nothing we do can stop these behaviors and beliefs. We just have to hope that they die out on their own. Unfortunately, that's a very long process.
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Postby Phy » Mon May 07, 2007 6:32 am UTC

3.14159265... wrote:Don't go on an edge against the middle east, the west used to burn heretics at the stake too.

Yeah, but didn't we stop?

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Postby 3.14159265... » Mon May 07, 2007 12:04 pm UTC

After how long? and has it REALLY stopped.

I mean there are people supporting the Iraq war.

There are people that support the Canadian governments role in Haiti.

Imagine, if the cause of all the Palestinians issue is religion? I bring this in, because the North American Jewish community strongly supports Israel.

We have the other thing too, Extraordinary rendition is it called?

These are all pretty much against Human rights.

I think people just let out their anger, and evil side in a more subtle way now .... they havn't really stopped
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Postby SilentPoet » Mon May 07, 2007 1:04 pm UTC

I am thoroughly delighted to have been born in the West.

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Postby Phenriz » Mon May 07, 2007 2:07 pm UTC

3.14159265... wrote:I think people just let out their anger, and evil side in a more subtle way now .... they havn't really stopped


:roll:

*no sarcasm was used in this post*
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Postby space_raptor » Tue May 08, 2007 5:04 pm UTC

Those 8 or 9 "men" should have their balls cut off.

That might be too good for them though.

If your religion tells you that this is ok, then your religion is flat out wrong.
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Postby 3.14159265... » Tue May 08, 2007 7:06 pm UTC

space_raptor wrote:Those 8 or 9 "men" should have their balls cut off.


"If you want to change the world, be that change" - Ghandi

Who wants to travel, we will take knives with us, it will be fulfilling :twisted:

Space_raptor wrote:If your religion tells you that this is ok, then your religion is flat out wrong.


No it means your religion is fucked up, and makes you do stupid shit, cuz its stupid and old, and the preists of it shud be regarded as KKK preachers.

HOWEVER on the point of religion beign flat out wrong--> THEY ARE, FROM A LOGICAL STAND POINT

The point of this religion being wrong because of the actions of its members. I made a thread about this one, something like "If you believe, a skinned baby is thrown in a salt bucket"
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Postby ArchangelShrike » Tue May 08, 2007 8:49 pm UTC

Only if we get guns as well, I'm in for some vigilante justice that will probably be corrupted as much in the public psyche as this killing of the girl.

...Did I just say that?

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Postby Vaniver » Tue May 08, 2007 9:08 pm UTC

I personally find the editorialization in the article humorous. The "wrong" religion? I think they just mean "another" religion.

Don't go on an edge against the middle east, the west used to burn heretics at the stake too.
See, this is the fun thing.

The West ended burning heretics at the stake. People used to do it, and now they don't, because of the West.
The West ended slavery. People used to do it, and now they don't, because of the West.
If you want to bring up history, you have to bring up all of it. Ignorance, as they say, is the only evil.

(This was written before I saw Phy's post)

After how long? and has it REALLY stopped.

I mean there are people supporting the Iraq war.
Non sequitur for the lose!

No it means your religion is fucked up, and makes you do stupid shit, cuz its stupid and old, and the preists of it shud be regarded as KKK preachers.
That man that holds a relatively nonviolent belief should be treated as a bigoted maniac!

Why? Oh, because I hate religion.

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Postby 3.14159265... » Tue May 08, 2007 9:38 pm UTC

Vanivier wrote:The West ended burning heretics at the stake. People used to do it, and now they don't, because of the West.
The West ended slavery. People used to do it, and now they don't, because of the West.
If you want to bring up history, you have to bring up all of it. Ignorance, as they say, is the only evil.


The middle east ended slavery after the rise of Islam, wholy crap they must be brilliantly for human rights.

[/sarcasm]

My points were for the " it isn't going to work " comment, the point being that just because the middle east has stupid people now, the type of people that the west also cherished, doesn't mean it can never work.

Vanvier wrote:That man that holds a relatively nonviolent belief should be treated as a bigoted maniac!

Why? Oh, because I hate religion.


No beacuse I hate violent cults.

The KKK preachers are preaching the ideas of a violent cult
The preacher for those people must be preaching to them, why women should be engineers too.... right?
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Postby Mighty Jalapeno » Tue May 08, 2007 9:40 pm UTC

That'll teach her for being born into the wrong culture! For shaaaaaame.... please don't kick my ass for that, I was trying to be sarcastic.

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Postby 3.14159265... » Tue May 08, 2007 9:44 pm UTC

Now I really wanna kick your ass, since I killed my eyes reading the white text and forgot to highlight :oops:
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Postby Phenriz » Tue May 08, 2007 9:50 pm UTC

3.14159265... wrote:My points were for the " it isn't going to work " comment, the point being that just because the middle east has stupid people now, the type of people that the west also cherished, doesn't mean it can never work.


the middle east has been around for some time, and by some time, i mean far longer than the west, in terms of great structured societies, Hammurabi comes to mind, yet they need time to play "catch up"? (you said it not me)

i don't mean to de-rail the thread, but that inconsistency needed to be pointed out.
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Postby 3.14159265... » Tue May 08, 2007 10:12 pm UTC

huh?

Hex wrote:You know, I just have a feeling this whole middle east thing just isn't going to work. At all.

He then said
Hex wrote:I don't have much brighter hopes for the rest of the world either, mind you.


Which comes back to what I was saying about both societies having stupid people, stupid eras, and stupid religions at times.

It isn't that those in the middle east are born stupid, and violent.

And it isn't that people in the west are now born enlightened and peacefull.

Roles may switch yet again.

Notice how in all of that there is no mention or indirect mention of an Idea saying the middle east isn't really really really bad right now, or that the people aren't really really really uneducated right now?
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Postby Andrew » Tue May 08, 2007 10:50 pm UTC

It's worth pointing out that this kind of thing goes on in the West. We just don't blame religion and we don't call it an "honour killing". People will always do this; it's sad but it's in their nature. (I don't say "our" nature because it's not everyone and I don't count myself as someone who could do that.)

The difference?

We stick the bastards in prison where they belong. Some of us execute them. Because not blaming religion means that the delusions that cause this kind of violence here are generally not shared by the rest of society.

All this stems from one crucial idea: in the absence of any practical way to remove religion completely the only way for society to progress is for all religions to live together. We don't have cities with one religion on one side and another on the other (except in Northern Ireland, and we all know where that leads); we have streets with four different religions and an atheist there. We have houses with more than one religion inside.

No state religions; no tribes; no weird little sub-societies. (At least, not generally.) Those things lead to violence.

You've probably gathered I'm against faith schooling. So many reasons...

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Postby Owijad » Tue May 08, 2007 10:52 pm UTC

Vaniver wrote:I personally find the editorialization in the article humorous. The "wrong" religion? I think they just mean "another" religion.


Uhm. It was the wrong religion. That part, at least, was not particularly biased.


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Postby FiddleMath » Wed May 09, 2007 12:36 am UTC

Andrew wrote:No state religions; no tribes; no weird little sub-societies.


And so, at the turn of the millennium, there was a sense of optimism, in that plurality and tolerance could, if spread widely enough, even the humours of humanity. This seemed to be possible until, alas, burgeoning and increasingly militant internet subcultures took up arms and demanded their places in society, after mere decades of marginalization. According to many historians, the bloodiest and most deeply demoralizing of these risings was the Furry Junta of 53...

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Postby Phenriz » Wed May 09, 2007 2:17 am UTC

Andrew wrote:No state religions; no tribes; no weird little sub-societies. (At least, not generally.) Those things lead to violence.


so totalitarianism it is?
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Postby JtheLetz » Wed May 09, 2007 3:03 am UTC

Phenriz wrote:
Andrew wrote:No state religions; no tribes; no weird little sub-societies. (At least, not generally.) Those things lead to violence.
so totalitarianism it is?


The only way to prevent violence is with enough repression and more violence? Sadly, that probably works better (in the short term) than most other solutions.
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Postby Phenriz » Wed May 09, 2007 3:22 am UTC

i don't believe it to be a valid approach, there is no way to remove violence from human beings, it's built into us as primates. There are ways to dampen it's prevelance, ala buddhism, but even that isn't fool proof.
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Postby Pathway » Wed May 09, 2007 4:38 am UTC

3.14159265... wrote:The point of this religion being wrong because of the actions of its members. I made a thread about this one, something like "If you believe, a skinned baby is thrown in a salt bucket"


Yes, you did. It was a stupid title and a stupid premise. I'm pretty surprised you feel like calling attention to it.
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Postby JtheLetz » Wed May 09, 2007 4:47 am UTC

Phenriz wrote:i don't believe it to be a valid approach, there is no way to remove violence from human beings, it's built into us as primates. There are ways to dampen it's prevelance, ala buddhism, but even that isn't fool proof.

Nothing is fool proof.
I wonder how much of Buddhism (or other systems of belief) is due to the nature of the thing itself and how much is selection bias - the only people who would agree to adhere to such tenets are people who are more likely to already have a similar approach to/outlook on life.
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Postby Phenriz » Wed May 09, 2007 5:21 am UTC

JtheLetz wrote:Nothing is fool proof.
I wonder how much of Buddhism (or other systems of belief) is due to the nature of the thing itself and how much is selection bias - the only people who would agree to adhere to such tenets are people who are more likely to already have a similar approach to/outlook on life.


could be, i am born and raised catholic (denounced it a little over a decade ago), known to be pretty ignorant and lustful at times, yet i find much "truth" (for lack of a better word) in buddhist teachings. I'm not a practicioner by any means, but i still take what i know of buddhism and apply it when i can. Thus it's had a positive effect on my life as a whole. Given my birthplace and induction to a very formalized religion a month or so after birth, you'd think i wouldn't be prone to such tenets, but i still think buddhism has more merits, as a lifestyle, than religion.
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Postby Vaniver » Wed May 09, 2007 7:33 am UTC

Uhm. It was the wrong religion. That part, at least, was not particularly biased.
To me, saying the "wrong" religion implies a religion that is not correct, not just one that has negative repercussions.


The middle east ended slavery after the rise of Islam, wholy crap they must be brilliantly for human rights.
Is that so?
The major juristic schools of Islam traditionally accepted the institution of slavery. Muhammad and many of his companions bought, sold, freed, and captured slaves. Slaves benefited from Islamic dispensations which improved their situation relative to that in pre-Islamic society. At the end of 19th century a shift in Muslim thought and interpretation of the Qur'an occurred, and slavery is widely viewed to be opposed to Islamic principles of justice and equality. This interpretation has not been accepted by Wahhabis of Saudi Arabia.

In Islamic law, the topic of Islam and slavery is covered at great length. The Qur'an and the hadith consider manumission of a slave to be a meritorious deed, and see slavery as an exceptional circumstance - a condition that can be entered into only under certain limited circumstances. For a variety of reasons, internal growth of the slave population was not enough to fulfill the demand in Muslim society. This resulted in massive importation, which involved enormous suffering and loss of life from the capture and transportation of slaves from non-Muslim lands. In theory, slavery in Islamic law does not have a racial or color component, although this has not always been the case in practice.

The Arab slave trade was most active in eastern Africa, and by the end of the 19th century such activity had reached a low ebb. In the early 20th century (post World War I) slavery was gradually outlawed and suppressed in Muslim lands, largely due to pressure exerted by Western nations such as Britain and France. However, slavery claiming the sanction of Islam is documented presently in the African republics of Chad, Mauritania and the Sudan.

...
Unlike Western societies which in their opposition to slavery spawned anti-slavery movements whose numbers and enthusiasm often grew out of church groups, no such grass-roots organizations ever developed in Muslim societies. In Muslim politics the state unquestioningly accepted the teachings of Islam and applied them as law. Islam, by sanctioning slavery - however mild a form it generally took - also extended legitimacy to the nefarious traffic in slaves.
Source, with emphasis mine.
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Postby German Sausage » Wed May 09, 2007 9:17 am UTC

while we are doing all this 'things aren't working in the middle east' stuff, does anyone care to think of 'the troubles' in northern ireland? i don't imagine the IRA would have been too keen on their children fraternizing with protestants.
just a thought.
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Postby hermaj » Wed May 09, 2007 1:17 pm UTC

Didn't they resolve that to some degree just now? Northern Ireland parliamentary stuff was all over the news tonight.

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Postby elminster » Wed May 09, 2007 2:22 pm UTC

Anything done in the name of religion to cause extensive harm and death, is wrong. While i agree the west has been through its dark ages, we have arrived at a current age that is relatively safe. Also, while we cant force religious communities to conform, we should heavily encourage it through teaching children properly, taking action against people who incite hate or commit it against others and to change social norms to not accept it.

[related waffle]
Recently i read an article in New Scientist, labelled "They made me do it", it was about how the person who gave the orders at Abu Ghraib was near enough a American icon before going there. Social interactions and physiological effects like authoritative power, mob mentality, anonymity, etc, all contributed to turning average people into evil people.
We've all heard about the electric shock tests, where the participant would shock another person upon command, and other such tests, but this article highlighted the fact that its far more prevalent and important than most think... and i couldn't agree more.

It doesnt take as much as it should to make people want to harm others. Certain isolated religious communities allow these ideas to run rampant until it seems normal to them and without regular interaction from opposing ideas, they only get reinforced. Look a the Phelps for example (owners of godhatesfags.com, protesters at military funerals), its only laws preventing them from ruining some peoples lives.

This has to be rooted out from the highest level before anything major happens, the government has to recognise its severely wrong and take action. Obviously certain people would object, but anyone willing to object to laws preventing people harming each other at will, should be carefully considered.
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