Mininova Removes Illegal Torrents.

Seen something interesting in the news or on the intertubes? Discuss it here.

Moderators: Zamfir, Hawknc, Moderators General, Prelates

The Reaper
Posts: 4008
Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2007 5:37 am UTC
Location: San Antonio, Tx
Contact:

Re: Mininova Removes Illegal Torrents.

Postby The Reaper » Mon Nov 30, 2009 8:49 pm UTC

Felstaff wrote:I'm just going to walk away from this thread with the conclusion that Ixtellor is desperate to find some teenybopper action and wants to tell the world he has a problem.
Psst, he's a teacher. o_O

User avatar
Box Boy
WINNING
Posts: 1356
Joined: Thu Nov 20, 2008 9:33 pm UTC

Re: Mininova Removes Illegal Torrents.

Postby Box Boy » Mon Nov 30, 2009 8:51 pm UTC

Out of curiosity, does anyone know what happened to Demonoid?
Is it dead or just under work?
Signatures are for chumps.

User avatar
Gelsamel
Lame and emo
Posts: 8237
Joined: Thu Oct 05, 2006 10:49 am UTC
Location: Melbourne, Victoria, Australia

Re: Mininova Removes Illegal Torrents.

Postby Gelsamel » Mon Nov 30, 2009 8:54 pm UTC

Box Boy wrote:Out of curiosity, does anyone know what happened to Demonoid?
Is it dead or just under work?


Despite having an account there I hardly use it... I have not checked in ages. They seem to have a nice signal:noise ratio but they just don't seem to have the volume.
"Give up here?"
- > No
"Do you accept defeat?"
- > No
"Do you think games are silly little things?"
- > No
"Is it all pointless?"
- > No
"Do you admit there is no meaning to this world?"
- > No

User avatar
Telchar
That's Admiral 'The Hulk' Ackbar, to you sir
Posts: 1937
Joined: Sat Apr 05, 2008 9:06 pm UTC
Location: Cynicistia

Re: Mininova Removes Illegal Torrents.

Postby Telchar » Mon Nov 30, 2009 8:57 pm UTC

Indon wrote:Marriage carries tax benefits. File taxes as if you're married without a recognized marriage and you go to prison for tax fraud. Marriage is Serious Business, and works perfectly for this analogy.


Pretty sure filing jointly you actually pay more taxes. There was a couple that would get divorced in Nov and reup (lol...) in Jan because of it.

That being said...yeah, I still don't follow the "I can't watch it/It's bad marketing/It doesn't hurt anyone" scenarios. They are all fairly bogus.
Zamfir wrote:Yeah, that's a good point. Everyone is all about presumption of innocence in rape threads. But when Mexican drug lords build APCs to carry their henchmen around, we immediately jump to criminal conclusions without hard evidence.

User avatar
Darkscull
Posts: 798
Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2008 10:46 am UTC
Location: Now where I want to be

Re: Mininova Removes Illegal Torrents.

Postby Darkscull » Mon Nov 30, 2009 8:57 pm UTC

Demonoid went down a while ago, they lost a lot of data and the guy who knows how it all works hasn't been around.

I saw an article that was posted in october saying that the tracker is back up, but the site still isn't.

Last time Demonoid broke, the tracker came back first apparently and the site a few months later.

I miss it. I don't download stuff that often but whenever I want something I go straight to Demonoid first.
Physicists do it in an excited state.
m/bi/UK/Ⓐ/chaotic good
b. 1988 d. 20xx

User avatar
Hawknc
Oompa Loompa of SCIENCE!
Posts: 6986
Joined: Mon Oct 02, 2006 5:14 am UTC
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: Mininova Removes Illegal Torrents.

Postby Hawknc » Mon Nov 30, 2009 8:58 pm UTC

Man, I was just going to crowdsource the beatdown on Ixtellor's argument instead of redtexting, but Felstaff's post is too awesome. :lol:

The Reaper
Posts: 4008
Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2007 5:37 am UTC
Location: San Antonio, Tx
Contact:

Re: Mininova Removes Illegal Torrents.

Postby The Reaper » Mon Nov 30, 2009 8:58 pm UTC

RE: demonoid: Who knows. I get my perfectly legal torrents through isohunt and pirate bay. Go figure.

User avatar
Felstaff
Occam's Taser
Posts: 5175
Joined: Fri Feb 01, 2008 7:10 pm UTC
Location: ¢ ₪ ¿ ¶ § ∴ ® © ™ ؟ ¡ ‽ æ Þ ° ₰ ₤ ಡಢ

Re: Mininova Removes Illegal Torrents.

Postby Felstaff » Mon Nov 30, 2009 9:08 pm UTC

The word is about, there's something evolving,
whatever may come, the world keeps revolving
They say the next big thing is here,
that the revolution's near,
but to me it seems quite clear
that it's all just a little bit of history repeating
Away, you scullion! you rampallion! You fustilarian! I'll tickle your catastrophe.

User avatar
Darkscull
Posts: 798
Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2008 10:46 am UTC
Location: Now where I want to be

Re: Mininova Removes Illegal Torrents.

Postby Darkscull » Mon Nov 30, 2009 9:16 pm UTC

Telchar wrote:That being said...yeah, I still don't follow the "I can't watch it/It's bad marketing/It doesn't hurt anyone" scenarios. They are all fairly bogus.


I don't see how they're bogus.
Well, I don't know about the bad marketing one, but the others do make sense.

Sure, they can be used as excuses by people who just want to get stuff without paying, but that doesn't invalidate the argument itself.

The concept is fairly straightforward:
Every product has a price that you're willing to pay for it (varying from person to person, obviously). If there's a nonessential product that you can't find for a reasonable price, you don't buy it (unless you can barter the price down).
If it's a physical item, it would be wrong to just grab it because that takes the item's worth away from the seller with nothing in return.
If it's data, then rather than going without, you can make a copy. The only thing that that takes away from the seller is some of the potential for you to pay them for having generated that data*. If that data is not worth any money to you then you'd never pay them for it even if you didn't have access to it for free, so whether you get it free or not makes no difference to them.
If it would be worth money to you, but they aren't giving you the opportunity to pay them, then it still doesn't make a difference.

Therefore, it doesn't hurt anyone.

Of course, that argument only counts as a justification for downloading if the situation applies to you, and it's iffy when it comes to making it available (nothing stopping those who just want to avoid paying downloading it as well).
It's not a general argument for pirating stuff, but it is an argument for reforming both copyright law and the way infinitely reproducable products are sold.


*There's nothing stopping you changing your mind about it's worth and paying them after all, so the potential for income is not gone completely.
Physicists do it in an excited state.
m/bi/UK/Ⓐ/chaotic good
b. 1988 d. 20xx

User avatar
SlyReaper
inflatable
Posts: 8015
Joined: Mon Dec 31, 2007 11:09 pm UTC
Location: Bristol, Old Blighty

Re: Mininova Removes Illegal Torrents.

Postby SlyReaper » Mon Nov 30, 2009 10:44 pm UTC

Just to play devil's advocate for a second here (I'm awkward like that), but the problem is that even if you do like the thing you've downloaded enough to pay for it, now that you already have it sitting on your hard drive, there's nothing compelling you to pay the artist for the work, or buying the DVD once they finally get round to releasing it. We like to think that everyone is decent enough to pay for that which is worth paying for, but not everyone does.
Image
What would Baron Harkonnen do?

User avatar
Darkscull
Posts: 798
Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2008 10:46 am UTC
Location: Now where I want to be

Re: Mininova Removes Illegal Torrents.

Postby Darkscull » Mon Nov 30, 2009 10:57 pm UTC

SlyReaper wrote:Just to play devil's advocate for a second here (I'm awkward like that), but the problem is that even if you do like the thing you've downloaded enough to pay for it, now that you already have it sitting on your hard drive, there's nothing compelling you to pay the artist for the work, or buying the DVD once they finally get round to releasing it. We like to think that everyone is decent enough to pay for that which is worth paying for, but not everyone does.


That is indeed where that sort of argument falls down. It does assume people will be decent like that.


My justification for downloading stuff is that the way the music and software (the only things I download) industries work is designed to screw over pretty much everyone aside from the companies that organise everything.
I'm part of the fight to get things changed (albeit only by giving my support. I don't have much time for activism, unfortunately), and until they are changed to be fairer and more reasonable all round I will minimise my contribution to upholding the current system.

I know that sounds like a bollocks excuse for just wanting free stuff, but I don't care.
Physicists do it in an excited state.
m/bi/UK/Ⓐ/chaotic good
b. 1988 d. 20xx

User avatar
Malice
Posts: 3894
Joined: Sat Jul 21, 2007 5:37 am UTC
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Contact:

Re: Mininova Removes Illegal Torrents.

Postby Malice » Mon Nov 30, 2009 11:03 pm UTC

SlyReaper wrote:Just to play devil's advocate for a second here (I'm awkward like that), but the problem is that even if you do like the thing you've downloaded enough to pay for it, now that you already have it sitting on your hard drive, there's nothing compelling you to pay the artist for the work, or buying the DVD once they finally get round to releasing it. We like to think that everyone is decent enough to pay for that which is worth paying for, but not everyone does.


I agree that the motivation "you should pay because... that's what you should do" isn't always sufficient. But you're ignoring several other ones, including "I know this is good so I will buy it for a friend," "I know this is good so I will buy subsequent editions or works from this artist," "I want a physical copy," and "I want to support the artist so they'll make more stuff like this".
Image

User avatar
Dauric
Posts: 3988
Joined: Wed Aug 05, 2009 6:58 pm UTC
Location: In midair, traversing laterally over a container of sharks. No water, just sharks, with lasers.

Re: Mininova Removes Illegal Torrents.

Postby Dauric » Mon Nov 30, 2009 11:07 pm UTC

One of my co-workers won a lunch from a local radio station, a marketing gig really, but we had an interesting conversation with the DJ. Most radio channels are playing less and less music because most people who want to listen to music have more variety in their iPods than the sponsored radio playsists. So with increasing focus on talk, there's fewer and fewer options to listen to new bands or stuff you've never heard of.

Meanwhile the RIAA is attempting to prohibit any playing of music for no charge, so there's less and less viable legal ways to listen to something new to decide if you want to actually buy it.

Combined it means that if you're interested in listening to new performers, the only way to get a feel for what music you'll like is to pirate it.
We're in the traffic-chopper over the XKCD boards where there's been a thread-derailment. A Liquified Godwin spill has evacuated threads in a fourty-post radius of the accident, Lolcats and TVTropes have broken free of their containers. It is believed that the Point has perished.

User avatar
Box Boy
WINNING
Posts: 1356
Joined: Thu Nov 20, 2008 9:33 pm UTC

Re: Mininova Removes Illegal Torrents.

Postby Box Boy » Mon Nov 30, 2009 11:11 pm UTC

My justification for movies, music and DS gamesis as follows;
I always see if a friend has a copy, legally, that I can rip.
I don't usually download much that I don't already own. Every DS game I've pirated is a backup and so are nearly all my music and movies.
I always support indie movies/games/bands by buyig their stuff, I only pirate from big names/brands/franchises.
I probobly wouldn't have payed for something I've pirated so no-one is losing money, it's only if I find it on sale for a really low price that I will actually purchase it.
Signatures are for chumps.

User avatar
Darkscull
Posts: 798
Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2008 10:46 am UTC
Location: Now where I want to be

Re: Mininova Removes Illegal Torrents.

Postby Darkscull » Mon Nov 30, 2009 11:24 pm UTC

Dauric wrote:Combined it means that if you're interested in listening to new performers, the only way to get a feel for what music you'll like is to pirate it.


Or Spotify! (if you're in Europe :P)

I did used to download stuff that looked interesting, but now I see if it's on spotify.
I know a lot of people go on youtube, which is technically pirating unless there's an official video, but I find I can't really get into music if it's on youtube. Maybe it's the quality.

But yeah, I buy physical CDs if I really like them. In some cases it's because I want to own them physically, in others to support the band, even if most of the money doesn't get to them.
Physicists do it in an excited state.
m/bi/UK/Ⓐ/chaotic good
b. 1988 d. 20xx

User avatar
Telchar
That's Admiral 'The Hulk' Ackbar, to you sir
Posts: 1937
Joined: Sat Apr 05, 2008 9:06 pm UTC
Location: Cynicistia

Re: Mininova Removes Illegal Torrents.

Postby Telchar » Tue Dec 01, 2009 5:47 am UTC

Darkscull wrote:
The concept is fairly straightforward:
Every product has a price that you're willing to pay for it (varying from person to person, obviously). If there's a nonessential product that you can't find for a reasonable price, you don't buy it (unless you can barter the price down).
If it's a physical item, it would be wrong to just grab it because that takes the item's worth away from the seller with nothing in return.
If it's data, then rather than going without, you can make a copy. The only thing that that takes away from the seller is some of the potential for you to pay them for having generated that data*. If that data is not worth any money to you then you'd never pay them for it even if you didn't have access to it for free, so whether you get it free or not makes no difference to them.
If it would be worth money to you, but they aren't giving you the opportunity to pay them, then it still doesn't make a difference.

Therefore, it doesn't hurt anyone.


Except it does. In fact, it's the entire basis for Workman's Compensation. You are deprived of money that you could've made minus X event. Depriving some one of money they could be making is wrong.

Also, the idea that the seller gets to independently set a completely subjective price on a piece of data and call it fair, and if the producer doesn't agree the seller can steal it....is a bad system.
Zamfir wrote:Yeah, that's a good point. Everyone is all about presumption of innocence in rape threads. But when Mexican drug lords build APCs to carry their henchmen around, we immediately jump to criminal conclusions without hard evidence.

Kyrn
Posts: 937
Joined: Sat Sep 05, 2009 3:55 pm UTC
Location: The Internet

Re: Mininova Removes Illegal Torrents.

Postby Kyrn » Tue Dec 01, 2009 6:47 am UTC

Telchar wrote:
Darkscull wrote:
The concept is fairly straightforward:
Every product has a price that you're willing to pay for it (varying from person to person, obviously). If there's a nonessential product that you can't find for a reasonable price, you don't buy it (unless you can barter the price down).
If it's a physical item, it would be wrong to just grab it because that takes the item's worth away from the seller with nothing in return.
If it's data, then rather than going without, you can make a copy. The only thing that that takes away from the seller is some of the potential for you to pay them for having generated that data*. If that data is not worth any money to you then you'd never pay them for it even if you didn't have access to it for free, so whether you get it free or not makes no difference to them.
If it would be worth money to you, but they aren't giving you the opportunity to pay them, then it still doesn't make a difference.

Therefore, it doesn't hurt anyone.


Except it does. In fact, it's the entire basis for Workman's Compensation. You are deprived of money that you could've made minus X event. Depriving some one of money they could be making is wrong.

Also, the idea that the seller gets to independently set a completely subjective price on a piece of data and call it fair, and if the producer doesn't agree the seller can steal it....is a bad system.


However, when "intellectual property" is concerned, the whole idea gets in a loop.

1) First, you're basing your assumption that they making money is the base result, when they making money is in itself determined by the existence of the very rules that were proposed. Or to put simply, the only reason why they could have made money to begin with is because of Y event (aka existence of copyright legislation).
2) It is a bad system, for a completely different reason: you are placing a price on something which is nearly impossible to regulate. The copying of data is so simple nowadays that substantially more effort is required to prevent copying than to copy itself (and that itself still doesn't prevent copying in the majority of cases). (Do note that this is different from stealing, which transfers ownership of objects, the original owner still has the original object after copying)
I am NOT a snake.

Opinions discussed are not necessarily the opinions of the people discussing them.

User avatar
dedalus
Posts: 1169
Joined: Fri Apr 24, 2009 12:16 pm UTC
Location: Dark Side of the Moon.

Re: Mininova Removes Illegal Torrents.

Postby dedalus » Tue Dec 01, 2009 6:55 am UTC

Something to note in terms of intellectual property is that it has the distinction of being unique: you can't just turn around and buy another record at the cheaper price, because they're not the same. This means that one of the important self-regulatory aspects of capitalism I.E. competition goes to the ground because the record company immediately has a monopoly over their share of the price of the record. They're not completely free to do what they'd want with it, but the point is that it works both ways; you can't just say 'oh we have a right to not have our intellectual property stolen from us' - which is all true, well, and good - without providing some mechanism for actually setting the price other then 'this works best to screw the most money out of the end user'. So though I'm not a fan of piracy myself, the system needs to change a lot to make it fair to all parties involved. And I can't quite see how the free market system works in a field immediately devoid of competition.
doogly wrote:Oh yea, obviously they wouldn't know Griffiths from Sakurai if I were throwing them at them.

dosboot
Posts: 143
Joined: Sun Jul 01, 2007 5:26 am UTC

Re: Mininova Removes Illegal Torrents.

Postby dosboot » Tue Dec 01, 2009 8:17 am UTC

dedalus wrote:You can't just say 'oh we have a right to not have our intellectual property stolen from us' - which is all true, well, and good - without providing some mechanism for actually setting the price other then 'this works best to screw the most money out of the end user'.


No, you can just say that. Having copyright over something means, for example, you get to decide there will be no copies. Or only seven copies. Or only copies in exchange for neck massages. Copyright is not a contract that requires the holder to price copies fairly or even sell copies at all. Who would to force a painter to authorize reproductions if he/she is against it?

Darkscull wrote:If it's data, then rather than going without, you can make a copy. The only thing that that takes away from the seller is some of the potential for you to pay them for having generated that data*.


No, you've taken away his right to control copies. Namely, you've taken away any decision about copies that doesn't include you receiving one. On the bright side, if this means you end up with no copy it's not like you are really denied anything - the creative work wouldn't have existed in the first place if the creator didn't create it.

User avatar
dedalus
Posts: 1169
Joined: Fri Apr 24, 2009 12:16 pm UTC
Location: Dark Side of the Moon.

Re: Mininova Removes Illegal Torrents.

Postby dedalus » Tue Dec 01, 2009 9:49 am UTC

dosboot wrote:No, you can just say that. Having copyright over something means, for example, you get to decide there will be no copies. Or only seven copies. Or only copies in exchange for neck massages. Copyright is not a contract that requires the holder to price copies fairly or even sell copies at all. Who would to force a painter to authorize reproductions if he/she is against it?

But having copyright prevents someone from creating anything similar. Owning apples does not prevent anyone else from growing apples that are just as good as yours. It's the same with anything else except intellectual property.

Now, if you don't want to make more copies, then that's fine. But the point is that the record companies aren't saying 'oh, we're only producing 25 copies of this cd and if anyone else wants it they can get lost'. They're producing a semi-infinite amount of copies, and they're not trading in intellectual property, they're trading in items. The difference is mainly moral, but that doesn't make it less of a difference. But the original argument is this:

- Capitalism and the free market make the assumption that there is a automatic regulation placed upon the price of goods i.e. competition.
- This competition doesn't exist in terms of intellectual property.
- Thus, capitalism is not a good system to apply to intellectual property, and arbitrary regulation is needed.
doogly wrote:Oh yea, obviously they wouldn't know Griffiths from Sakurai if I were throwing them at them.

User avatar
Bubbles McCoy
Posts: 1106
Joined: Wed Jul 09, 2008 12:49 am UTC
Location: California

Re: Mininova Removes Illegal Torrents.

Postby Bubbles McCoy » Tue Dec 01, 2009 10:46 am UTC

That presumes that demand for any given album will have very high, inelastic demand for it from certain people though. Realistically speaking, it's unlikely that even the most prolific pirates will run across every track they might enjoy, genres and musical styles will be repeated across companies and each will hold rights to music that you'd very much like to have. There's still competition as at any one point in time, most prospective buyers will have limited money and time relative to a broad market of music to choose from, ensuring some degree of competition from sellers. While barriers do exist in the realm of intellectual property, they are hardly insurmountable by market mechanisms.

dosboot
Posts: 143
Joined: Sun Jul 01, 2007 5:26 am UTC

Re: Mininova Removes Illegal Torrents.

Postby dosboot » Tue Dec 01, 2009 11:29 am UTC

- Capitalism and the free market make the assumption that there is a automatic regulation placed upon the price of goods i.e. competition.
- This competition doesn't exist in terms of intellectual property.
- Thus, capitalism is not a good system to apply to intellectual property, and arbitrary regulation is needed.


If we run out of gold, and I have the only gold coin left in existence, should I sell it on the free market or is regulation needed to decide who gets to own it? If a new species of bird evolves in my forest, making me the only supplier of an endless amount of dropped feathers from this particular species, should I sell them on the free market or is regulation required?

The free market does not serve the interests of everyone else in these cases, but so be it.

User avatar
dedalus
Posts: 1169
Joined: Fri Apr 24, 2009 12:16 pm UTC
Location: Dark Side of the Moon.

Re: Mininova Removes Illegal Torrents.

Postby dedalus » Tue Dec 01, 2009 11:42 am UTC

It's still not a commodity that has competition on it. And face it, when you want an album, you don't just buy another from a different band that sounds kind of the same. Yes, people don't just walk into a record store saying 'I want this album' all the time, but if a record company sold an album for 5 dollars more it probably wouldn't make a difference.

What I'd really like to see is a graph showing where the money you pay for tracks goes to different companies, and exactly how much of that money works out to being pure profit for aforementioned companies (so record stores have to take into account hiring employees and maintaining a shop etc, record companies have to take into account production and marketing). Unfortunately I don't think such a thing exists. And then if record companies could be treated as a contractor for the musicians rather then the other way around, this might have a positive impact on both returns to the artists and prices. Another sign capitalism fails here is the fact that most of the money goes to people who don't actually create the intellectual property that the end user is buying. But then again, 'most of the money gets skimmed off by the middle man rather then going back to the primary producer' is the intent of capitalism, right?

Ninja'd: note the previous paragraph. There's no physical restriction on the number of copies of intellectual property. You're creating scenarios where there is a physical restriction. Bit of a difference.
doogly wrote:Oh yea, obviously they wouldn't know Griffiths from Sakurai if I were throwing them at them.

talvinen
Posts: 16
Joined: Sat May 09, 2009 12:58 am UTC

Re: Mininova Removes Illegal Torrents.

Postby talvinen » Tue Dec 01, 2009 1:16 pm UTC

This chart has been around for a while and was highly debated (and questioned). It shows the distribution of income of a physical CD (left) and a track download (right). In both cases, the profit for the musician is labeled as 4%. I don't have it in english, though. Just look up the words.

User avatar
Ixtellor
There are like 4 posters on XKCD that no more about ...
Posts: 3113
Joined: Sun Jan 13, 2008 3:31 pm UTC

Re: Mininova Removes Illegal Torrents.

Postby Ixtellor » Tue Dec 01, 2009 2:01 pm UTC

Since my point was lost, possible due to me being unclear and in a weird mood that day, let me clarify.

I was objecting to the "if you want to watch it, you have to break the law" comment by making an absurd argument involving CP. I wasn't actually attempting to make a case for CP... I was making an absurd example.

Then 4 posters said "Your making an absurd example, what about gay marriage!!!"

My main point which I stated explicitly which was totally lost somehow is:

"Have you ever taken the time to consider we have copyright laws for a good fucking reason?"
and also...
"Have you ever considered you don't have the right to watch/listen to whatever you want"

If I go home and write a brilliant piece of classical music and then decide "I don't anyone else to hear this" do you have a right to disregard my wishes and steal it from me anyway?

The #1 argument for the thieves is: It isn't hurting anyone.
The #2 argument for the thieves is: I am actually helping them.You take the smug illogical position that your doing them a favor by 'advertising' their product. Well I downloaded AVATAR for free, then I wrote 4 awsome blogs about it, so therefore I actually increased their profits.

Felstaff wrote:conclusion that Ixtellor is desperate to find some teenybopper action and wants to tell the world he has a problem.


Well please don't make that slanderous conclusion. Not really cool to accuse a person of being a monsterous pedophile, especially when its known that person has a profession helping children. 5 posts later Hawkn is virtually Hi5'ing you for accusing me of a horrific crime, so I guess you Win.
But just to be clear, I spend all day with 16-18 year old 'kids' in an attempt to help them earn college credit and better their lives. I view them all as my own kids and your accusation is pretty sickening. But since your disgusting accusation made Hawkn laugh I guess it must be funny. Congrats on being so damn funny!

Lastly,
I buy music all the time. I have never once EVER, felt like I got screwed over. I burn songs I DL onto disks, I put them on my ipod, My wifes computer crashed (she had like 2000 songs on it) and Apple reinstalled all her music hassle free...

Can someone explain to me how the record company is fucking you over when you go buy a CD?

Ixtellor

P.S. There are other ways to hear new artists. Some dorky UPS worker who liked music, put his tracks up on Myspace, had thousands of DL's, then he got a record deal. Owl City is the name of his er.. 'band'. (It's just him I think - I read about it in the NYTimes)
The Revolution will not be Twitterized.

Random832
Posts: 2525
Joined: Wed Oct 10, 2007 4:38 pm UTC

Re: Mininova Removes Illegal Torrents.

Postby Random832 » Tue Dec 01, 2009 2:14 pm UTC

Ixtellor wrote:My main point which I stated explicitly which was totally lost somehow is:

"Have you ever taken the time to consider we have copyright laws for a good fucking reason?"
and also...
"Have you ever considered you don't have the right to watch/listen to whatever you want"


At the time, your point seemed to be:
"Child Pornography is only wrong because the majority of the population has voted for it to be illegal" (i.e. your words: "what society has deemed harmful and bad")
and also...
"The majority has voted for copyright laws in their present form while fully aware of the consequences of those laws"

You basically failed to consider the possibility that some laws might be bad without that meaning that all laws are bad.
Last edited by Random832 on Tue Dec 01, 2009 2:20 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Ixtellor
There are like 4 posters on XKCD that no more about ...
Posts: 3113
Joined: Sun Jan 13, 2008 3:31 pm UTC

Re: Mininova Removes Illegal Torrents.

Postby Ixtellor » Tue Dec 01, 2009 2:19 pm UTC

Random832 wrote:
Ixtellor wrote:My main point which I stated explicitly which was totally lost somehow is:

"Have you ever taken the time to consider we have copyright laws for a good fucking reason?"
and also...
"Have you ever considered you don't have the right to watch/listen to whatever you want"


At the time, your point seemed to be:
"Child Pornography is only wrong because the majority of the population has voted for it to be illegal"
and also...
"The majority has voted for copyright laws in their present form while fully aware of the consequences of those laws"


I accept responsiblity if I was unclear (it was perfectly clear to me!).

Hopefully I have rectified that and now my position is more clearly stated.


Ixtellor
The Revolution will not be Twitterized.

Random832
Posts: 2525
Joined: Wed Oct 10, 2007 4:38 pm UTC

Re: Mininova Removes Illegal Torrents.

Postby Random832 » Tue Dec 01, 2009 2:22 pm UTC

Anyway, if any mods are still watching, some of the things said in this thread should probably be edited out (particularly, what Felstaff said about Ixtellor - yeah, it was a crappy argument, but that's the kind of comment that can destroy people's lives)

The Reaper
Posts: 4008
Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2007 5:37 am UTC
Location: San Antonio, Tx
Contact:

Re: Mininova Removes Illegal Torrents.

Postby The Reaper » Tue Dec 01, 2009 2:39 pm UTC

Ixtellor wrote:Apple reinstalled all her music hassle free

Something is confusing and creepy about this here argument.

User avatar
Ixtellor
There are like 4 posters on XKCD that no more about ...
Posts: 3113
Joined: Sun Jan 13, 2008 3:31 pm UTC

Re: Mininova Removes Illegal Torrents.

Postby Ixtellor » Tue Dec 01, 2009 2:43 pm UTC

The Reaper wrote:
Ixtellor wrote:Apple reinstalled all her music hassle free

Something is confusing and creepy about this here argument.


How so? In the oldem days when your cassette tape got all tangled, and you went to the record store and said "Hey my tape broke after only 10 plays", they respond "Fuck you, buy another one and learn how to take care of it better"

Today if your computer destroyes your modern day equivilent to a CD, record, or Cassette, the record company gives you back all your music for free.

Ixtellor
The Revolution will not be Twitterized.

User avatar
Telchar
That's Admiral 'The Hulk' Ackbar, to you sir
Posts: 1937
Joined: Sat Apr 05, 2008 9:06 pm UTC
Location: Cynicistia

Re: Mininova Removes Illegal Torrents.

Postby Telchar » Tue Dec 01, 2009 3:14 pm UTC

Kyrn wrote:
1) First, you're basing your assumption that they making money is the base result, when they making money is in itself determined by the existence of the very rules that were proposed. Or to put simply, the only reason why they could have made money to begin with is because of Y event (aka existence of copyright legislation).


And the only reason you get paid for your job is because we have laws about slavery and indentured servitude. That's not a bad thing. I'm not assuming that making money is their base result, it's their goal. You depriving them of what they could be earning is bad. I don't get the "It doesn't cost anyone anything except the money they could've made...." argument. That's costing them something. Why is that okay and costing them money by burning their lawn not?

2) It is a bad system, for a completely different reason: you are placing a price on something which is nearly impossible to regulate. The copying of data is so simple nowadays that substantially more effort is required to prevent copying than to copy itself (and that itself still doesn't prevent copying in the majority of cases). (Do note that this is different from stealing, which transfers ownership of objects, the original owner still has the original object after copying)


Last time I checked, "It's hard" wasn't a reason not to regulate something.
Zamfir wrote:Yeah, that's a good point. Everyone is all about presumption of innocence in rape threads. But when Mexican drug lords build APCs to carry their henchmen around, we immediately jump to criminal conclusions without hard evidence.

User avatar
Zorlin
Posts: 950
Joined: Sat May 30, 2009 2:31 am UTC
Location: Perth, Western Australia

Re: Mininova Removes Illegal Torrents.

Postby Zorlin » Tue Dec 01, 2009 6:34 pm UTC

Telchar wrote:And the only reason you get paid for your job is because we have laws about slavery and indentured servitude. That's not a bad thing. I'm not assuming that making money is their base result, it's their goal. You depriving them of what they could be earning is bad. I don't get the "It doesn't cost anyone anything except the money they could've made...." argument. That's costing them something. Why is that okay and costing them money by burning their lawn not?

Art and media are not fucking slavery. The new paradigm is simple: You create, you distribute, you let people pay you what they believe your work is worth, although you can certainly suggest a price. If your work is good, you get paid. If not, you don't. If you don't want to participate, you do not create. DRM never works, and the labels are dying.

Telchar wrote:Last time I checked, "It's hard" wasn't a reason not to regulate something.

DRM is pretty much the only way to try and prevent the initial copying. As for preventing peer to peer usage, you're talking about fucking with the privacy of millions of people so that a corporation can make profit. How many independent artists do you see crying about these changes? From what I've seen, only Lily Allen continues to bitch about how "ALL THE KIDDIES ARE STEALZING!" and such.

Ixtellor wrote:"Have you ever taken the time to consider we have copyright laws for a good fucking reason?"

We have copyright laws because it was decided that artists should be enabled to live off their creative works, and that intellectual property was a very real thing. This is a fair point, and a good thing. We have lifetime + 70 years copyright terms because the media pours millions into lobbying into getting the laws changed, and decided that lifetime + 70 years is somehow fucking fair. The current system exploits artists, taking almost all of their profits, and suing anyone outside it.
Ixtellor wrote:and also...
"Have you ever considered you don't have the right to watch/listen to whatever you want"

I agree - but it's becoming nearly impossible to package cultural works into discrete packages and sell them at set prices. Information is becoming free flowing, and the only way to stop it involves invading the privacy of everyone who uses the Internet. Even then, you can't get a person's identity (or proof of it) from their IP, and then we come to... encryption! Oh joys!

On top of this, dedicating the resources required to fight piracy and paying lawyers for the legal cases, and monitoring the traffic you acquired by spying on the public probably costs more than the supposed costs of the piracy itself, which is in itself questionable. They're fighting a losing battle. I'm not saying whether it's a wrong or right one, but it's a losing one, and they're going to die eventually anyways, leaving a more fair consumer/producer system with none of this middleman bullshit.
Mysterious wizard rabbit of unknown proportions.

Check out #xkcd-hugs movie night! Watch movies with your fellow xkcdians.

Meaux_Pas wrote:You're all mad.

User avatar
Telchar
That's Admiral 'The Hulk' Ackbar, to you sir
Posts: 1937
Joined: Sat Apr 05, 2008 9:06 pm UTC
Location: Cynicistia

Re: Mininova Removes Illegal Torrents.

Postby Telchar » Tue Dec 01, 2009 7:00 pm UTC

Zorlin wrote:Art and media are not fucking slavery. The new paradigm is simple: You create, you distribute, you let people pay you what they believe your work is worth, although you can certainly suggest a price. If your work is good, you get paid. If not, you don't. If you don't want to participate, you do not create. DRM never works, and the labels are dying.


FFS, read. I was making a counterpoint, not equating music to slavery.

I also love, again, the "You're business model sucks so we are justified in stealing from you" argument.

Zorlin wrote:DRM is pretty much the only way to try and prevent the initial copying. As for preventing peer to peer usage, you're talking about fucking with the privacy of millions of people so that a corporation can make profit. How many independent artists do you see crying about these changes? From what I've seen, only Lily Allen continues to bitch about how "ALL THE KIDDIES ARE STEALZING!" and such.


Way to set-up a false dichotomy. It's not 1984 vs Woodstock. There are record companies can do (indy bands? Why the fuck are you talking about indy bands? Of course indy bands love p2p.(Playoffs? Playoffs?)) that aren't "violating the privacy of millions!ZOMG!" Deterrent like bringing suit against known piracy, shutting down torrent sites that facilitate illegal downloading.

I also lol'd at this.

I'm not saying whether it's a wrong or right one, but it's a losing one, and they're going to die eventually anyways, leaving a more fair consumer/producer system with none of this middleman bullshit.


Please at least try and be intellectually honest. You're entire post was a giant rant about how bad it is.
Zamfir wrote:Yeah, that's a good point. Everyone is all about presumption of innocence in rape threads. But when Mexican drug lords build APCs to carry their henchmen around, we immediately jump to criminal conclusions without hard evidence.

yoni45
Posts: 2123
Joined: Sun Jul 08, 2007 9:16 am UTC
Contact:

Re: Mininova Removes Illegal Torrents.

Postby yoni45 » Tue Dec 01, 2009 7:05 pm UTC

Zorlin wrote:Art and media are not fucking slavery. The new paradigm is simple: You create, you distribute, you let people pay you what they believe your work is worth, although you can certainly suggest a price.


Lol. Because systems of ownership where anyone can take anything they want and choose to pay for it if they feel particularly philanthropic have been historically ever so successful.

We've moved on from the "I'm able to take your items and women, therefore I should be allowed to do so" centuries ago. "Your security systems sucks and cannot deter me, therefore I am further justified in stealing from you" went out somewhere along the same lines...

This is little more of the same but in a different realm with adjusted circumstances.

Zorlin wrote:DRM is pretty much the only way to try and prevent the initial copying. As for preventing peer to peer usage, you're talking about fucking with the privacy of millions of people so that a corporation can make profit...


Hardly -- it's quite possible to track down individual infringers without 'fucking with the privacy of millions of people'... It's even more possible to target the major facilitators of infringement, as was clearly done here.

Unless, of course, the millions of people to whom you refer *are* the infringers. In which case, there's sufficient cause to fuck with their privacy.

It's actually quite hilarious to see an argument of "this system sucks because it can't be enforced", when the event in question is an actual case of enforcement of the system.
I sell LSAT courses and LSAT course accessories. Admittedly, we're still working on the accessories.

User avatar
Zorlin
Posts: 950
Joined: Sat May 30, 2009 2:31 am UTC
Location: Perth, Western Australia

Re: Mininova Removes Illegal Torrents.

Postby Zorlin » Tue Dec 01, 2009 7:43 pm UTC

yoni45 wrote:Hardly -- it's quite possible to track down individual infringers without 'fucking with the privacy of millions of people'... It's even more possible to target the major facilitators of infringement, as was clearly done here.

You cannot do it reliably. An IP address is not enough, you need proof of who was behind that IP address at the time of infringement. I'm aware that there are anti-piracy companies, and I am aware of their methods, but they've been proven inaccurate a few times. Next?

Telchar: Fix your grammar and add in the missing words that you somehow managed to spatter through your posts and I'll give you an "intellectually honest" reply.
Last edited by Zorlin on Tue Dec 01, 2009 7:45 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.
Mysterious wizard rabbit of unknown proportions.

Check out #xkcd-hugs movie night! Watch movies with your fellow xkcdians.

Meaux_Pas wrote:You're all mad.

The Reaper
Posts: 4008
Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2007 5:37 am UTC
Location: San Antonio, Tx
Contact:

Re: Mininova Removes Illegal Torrents.

Postby The Reaper » Tue Dec 01, 2009 7:45 pm UTC

yoni45 wrote:
Zorlin wrote:Art and media are not fucking slavery. The new paradigm is simple: You create, you distribute, you let people pay you what they believe your work is worth, although you can certainly suggest a price.


Lol. Because systems of ownership where anyone can take anything they want and choose to pay for it if they feel particularly philanthropic have been historically ever so successful.
If I have an infinite number of items (a digitally replicable file perhaps), and someone takes one, do I notice? or is it only if I go on a witch hunt, attacking every peasant that has something that looks vaguely like mine?

User avatar
Zorlin
Posts: 950
Joined: Sat May 30, 2009 2:31 am UTC
Location: Perth, Western Australia

Re: Mininova Removes Illegal Torrents.

Postby Zorlin » Tue Dec 01, 2009 7:50 pm UTC

And sorry to throw off the ever so fucking relevant topic, but I'd like to note that my Content Distribution account's download figures keep shooting up. I'm getting 5000+ per day despite not having uploaded anything new for a month or two.

"Your torrents have been downloaded 66789 times in 171 different countries"

Image
Mysterious wizard rabbit of unknown proportions.

Check out #xkcd-hugs movie night! Watch movies with your fellow xkcdians.

Meaux_Pas wrote:You're all mad.

User avatar
Telchar
That's Admiral 'The Hulk' Ackbar, to you sir
Posts: 1937
Joined: Sat Apr 05, 2008 9:06 pm UTC
Location: Cynicistia

Re: Mininova Removes Illegal Torrents.

Postby Telchar » Tue Dec 01, 2009 8:23 pm UTC

Zorlin wrote:
Telchar: Fix your grammar and add in the missing words that you somehow managed to spatter through your posts and I'll give you an "intellectually honest" reply.


Wow. Really, you're the one that went on the attack first, but if you want to take the conversation to the level of mocking brain damage...you'll be alone. I understand you don't want to defend your points, and I don't blame you, but resorting to this is awful.
Zamfir wrote:Yeah, that's a good point. Everyone is all about presumption of innocence in rape threads. But when Mexican drug lords build APCs to carry their henchmen around, we immediately jump to criminal conclusions without hard evidence.

User avatar
Zorlin
Posts: 950
Joined: Sat May 30, 2009 2:31 am UTC
Location: Perth, Western Australia

Re: Mininova Removes Illegal Torrents.

Postby Zorlin » Tue Dec 01, 2009 8:40 pm UTC

Telchar wrote:Wow. Really, you're the one that went on the attack first, but if you want to take the conversation to the level of mocking brain damage...you'll be alone. I understand you don't want to defend your points, and I don't blame you, but resorting to this is awful.

Actually, I was serious. Your entire post makes me want to tear my eyes out - and note that I'm not mocking your intelligence, I'm stating that you failed to apply it. Others have already defended most of my points anyway.
Mysterious wizard rabbit of unknown proportions.

Check out #xkcd-hugs movie night! Watch movies with your fellow xkcdians.

Meaux_Pas wrote:You're all mad.

User avatar
Jesse
Vocal Terrorist
Posts: 8635
Joined: Mon Jul 03, 2006 6:33 pm UTC
Location: Basingstoke, England.
Contact:

Re: Mininova Removes Illegal Torrents.

Postby Jesse » Tue Dec 01, 2009 8:50 pm UTC

Zorlin wrote:
yoni45 wrote:Hardly -- it's quite possible to track down individual infringers without 'fucking with the privacy of millions of people'... It's even more possible to target the major facilitators of infringement, as was clearly done here.

You cannot do it reliably. An IP address is not enough, you need proof of who was behind that IP address at the time of infringement. I'm aware that there are anti-piracy companies, and I am aware of their methods, but they've been proven inaccurate a few times. Next?


Somethign useful along those lines http://www.freedom-to-tinker.com/blog/m ... ecificatio


Return to “News & Articles”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Baidu [Spider] and 29 guests