Uganda considering imposing death penalty on HIV+ gays

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Dibley
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Uganda considering imposing death penalty on HIV+ gays

Postby Dibley » Sun Nov 29, 2009 10:31 pm UTC

Uganda proposes death penalty for HIV positive gays
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Britain and Canada protested yesterday over a proposed law that would result in gays in Uganda being imprisoned for life or even executed.

Gordon Brown followed Stephen Harper, the Canadian Prime Minister, in telling Uganda that the legislation was unacceptable.

Mr Brown made his views plain in a breakfast conversation with President Museveni of Uganda on the margins of the Commonwealth summit.

Homosexuality remains criminalised in many Commonwealth countries, but the more liberal countries have been horrified by the new legislation.
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The Anti-Homosexuality Bill 2009 is going through Uganda’s Parliament after receiving its first reading last month.

According to Clause 2 of the Bill, a person who is convicted of gay sex is liable to life imprisonment. But if that person is also HIV positive the penalty — under the heading “aggravated homosexuality” — is death.

The Bill has not been endorsed by the Ugandan government but it has allowed it to proceed, and some top officials are said to have praised it.

A Canadian government spokesman said: “If adopted, a Bill further criminalising homosexuality would constitute a significant step backwards for the protection of human rights in Uganda.”

The Bill proposes a three-year prison sentence for anyone who is aware of evidence of homosexuality and fails to report it to the police within 24 hours. And it would impose a sentence of up to seven years for anyone who defends the rights of gays and lesbians.

Addressing the Commonwealth People’s Forum, Stephen Lewis, the former UN envoy on Aids in Africa, said that the Bill made a mockery of Commonwealth principles. “Nothing is as stark, punitive and redolent of hate as the Bill in Uganda.”

Whaaaaaat the fuck...

I love how the first comment is "you can't criticize them, that would be intolerance and imperialism!"

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Re: Uganda considering imposing death penalty on HIV+ gays

Postby Bright Shadows » Sun Nov 29, 2009 10:46 pm UTC

...
Uh... Well, I suppose this COULD BE a step forward, if they just had a generic death penalty for gay people before... I don't know that though...
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Re: Uganda considering imposing death penalty on HIV+ gays

Postby BlackSails » Sun Nov 29, 2009 10:48 pm UTC

Bright Shadows wrote:...
Uh... Well, I suppose this COULD BE a step forward, if they just had a generic death penalty for gay people before... I don't know that though...


I think that they do, but its still not a positive thing. Its like being "oh, I was only shot twice, at least it wasnt three times"

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Re: Uganda considering imposing death penalty on HIV+ gays

Postby Dibley » Sun Nov 29, 2009 10:53 pm UTC

I believe they had a life imprisonment for homosexuality, which they still have, but if you commit "aggravated homosexuality" (have HIV) you get the death penalty instead. So no, not a step forward.

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Re: Uganda considering imposing death penalty on HIV+ gays

Postby Bright Shadows » Sun Nov 29, 2009 10:55 pm UTC

Dibley wrote:I believe they had a life imprisonment for homosexuality, which they still have, but if you commit "aggravated homosexuality" (have HIV) you get the death penalty instead. So no, not a step forward.

Darn. Here and my hope for humanity was in the green again.
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Re: Uganda considering imposing death penalty on HIV+ gays

Postby Aikanaro » Mon Nov 30, 2009 12:29 am UTC

Okay, after all the depressing, sick threads lately, there's just one person who really summed up how I'm feeling right now.
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Re: Uganda considering imposing death penalty on HIV+ gays

Postby G.v.K » Mon Nov 30, 2009 12:34 am UTC

dunno about Canada, but Britain has form on this topic. Alan Turing being a famous example. makes you appreciate how far things have come in fifty odd years.

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Re: Uganda considering imposing death penalty on HIV+ gays

Postby psyck0 » Mon Nov 30, 2009 1:31 am UTC

http://www.talk2action.org/story/2009/11/25/132255/09 names names of American Senators and Congressmen who are partially behind this law: John Ensign, Bart Stupak, Joe Pitts, James Inhofe, Tom Coburn, Charles Grassley and Zach Wamp. If any of these Senators are yours, send them a fucking letter. And we can leave it there because I don't particularly want to be involved with death threats against US Senators. Extraditions are just so messy. -Hawk

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Re: Uganda considering imposing death penalty on HIV+ gays

Postby TheGrammarBolshevik » Mon Nov 30, 2009 1:44 am UTC

Or don't.
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Re: Uganda considering imposing death penalty on HIV+ gays

Postby Aetius » Mon Nov 30, 2009 3:45 am UTC

psyck0 wrote:http://www.talk2action.org/story/2009/11/25/132255/09 names names of American Senators and Congressmen who are partially behind this law: John Ensign, Bart Stupak, Joe Pitts, James Inhofe, Tom Coburn, Charles Grassley and Zach Wamp. If any of these Senators are yours, send them a fucking letter. Or shoot them.


I wonder what reaches you first, this post or the FBI.

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Re: Uganda considering imposing death penalty on HIV+ gays

Postby Vohu Manah » Mon Nov 30, 2009 4:25 am UTC

Aetius wrote:I wonder what reaches you first, this post or the FBI.

Or Pat Robertson.

At least India decriminalized homosexuality this year, so it could be worse. This is still a stain on humanity's napkin, but there have been improvements.
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Re: Uganda considering imposing death penalty on HIV+ gays

Postby Darkscull » Mon Nov 30, 2009 9:31 am UTC

What do they do with straight people that are HIV+?

I'm fairly sure there are more of them with it than non-straight people by now.
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Re: Uganda considering imposing death penalty on HIV+ gays

Postby joek » Mon Nov 30, 2009 9:54 am UTC

Darkscull wrote:What do they do with straight people that are HIV+?

I'm fairly sure there are more of them with it than non-straight people by now.

By virtue of there being more of them, yeah there are. I don't have statistics for Uganda though, it is possible that only gay people have it there :P. Or possibly having HIV is evidence of aggravated homosexuality.

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Re: Uganda considering imposing death penalty on HIV+ gays

Postby TheKrikkitWars » Mon Nov 30, 2009 10:16 am UTC

It's worth noting, that Uganda (I lived there for a bit, and am fond of the country) has one of the lowest HIV infection rates in west africa and have been quite successful in reducing infection rates for young people and couples (the programmes ignore homosexuality as possible, hence the rate of infection in the LGBT population [est 500,000] has been unaffected); they are very keen to improve on this further... Based on my experience of their politics, this is at least as much a misguided public health initative as it is a persecution of gays.

What is odd, is that Ugandan use of the death penalty has been thus far almost exclusively aimed at the LRA and its supporters, and the Constitutional Court has previously ruled that the impostition of the death penalty as a mandatory punishment is unconstitutional and illegal.

This is certainly an odd step, and one which I'm somewhat dismayed by.

Also weird, the Ugandan MP who proposed this (David Bahati) studied at the University of Wales, and I'm sat in the library of said institution typing this.
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Re: Uganda considering imposing death penalty on HIV+ gays

Postby psyck0 » Mon Nov 30, 2009 12:47 pm UTC

Aetius wrote:
psyck0 wrote:http://www.talk2action.org/story/2009/11/25/132255/09 names names of American Senators and Congressmen who are partially behind this law: John Ensign, Bart Stupak, Joe Pitts, James Inhofe, Tom Coburn, Charles Grassley and Zach Wamp. If any of these Senators are yours, send them a fucking letter. Or shoot them.


I wonder what reaches you first, this post or the FBI.

Oh, I'm Canadian. It's not like the CIA is above illegally arresting me in another country, though. I'm pretty sure everyone's sarcasm detector is broken today.

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Re: Uganda considering imposing death penalty on HIV+ gays

Postby The Reaper » Mon Nov 30, 2009 1:54 pm UTC

psyck0 wrote:
Aetius wrote:
psyck0 wrote:http://www.talk2action.org/story/2009/11/25/132255/09 names names of American Senators and Congressmen who are partially behind this law: John Ensign, Bart Stupak, Joe Pitts, James Inhofe, Tom Coburn, Charles Grassley and Zach Wamp. If any of these Senators are yours, send them a fucking letter. Or shoot them.


I wonder what reaches you first, this post or the FBI.

Oh, I'm Canadian. It's not like the CIA is above illegally arresting me in another country, though. I'm pretty sure everyone's sarcasm detector is broken today.

The US govt doesn't have a sarcasm detector. They lost the forms after they were filed in triplicate.

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Re: Uganda considering imposing death penalty on HIV+ gays

Postby Decker » Mon Nov 30, 2009 2:00 pm UTC

I'm still a little gobsmacked at the phrase "Aggrivated Homosexuality".
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Re: Uganda considering imposing death penalty on HIV+ gays

Postby Vaniver » Mon Nov 30, 2009 2:19 pm UTC

If your country is being ruined by AIDS, I can understand, if not approve of, imprisonment or execution of people with HIV. I can't understand why you would limit it to homosexuals, when in Africa the vast majority of people with AIDS are heterosexual. Unless, of course, you just want to kill gay people.
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Re: Uganda considering imposing death penalty on HIV+ gays

Postby psyck0 » Mon Nov 30, 2009 3:43 pm UTC

Read my article. The government is motivated by an extremist, fundamentalist Christian group that operates worldwide but has a strong base in the US with the senators and congressmen I mentioned, among others. They hate gays.

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Re: Uganda considering imposing death penalty on HIV+ gays

Postby headprogrammingczar » Mon Nov 30, 2009 3:49 pm UTC

Vaniver wrote:Unless, of course, you just want to kill gay people.

And there's your answer.
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Re: Uganda considering imposing death penalty on HIV+ gays

Postby Goldstein » Mon Nov 30, 2009 7:24 pm UTC

And it would impose a sentence of up to seven years for anyone who defends the rights of gays and lesbians.

It's all bad, but this bit struck me as the worst. Wouldn't that make it illegal to work towards overturning this law, and leave people with no option but to revolt?
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Re: Uganda considering imposing death penalty on HIV+ gays

Postby Dauric » Mon Nov 30, 2009 7:34 pm UTC

Goldstein wrote:
And it would impose a sentence of up to seven years for anyone who defends the rights of gays and lesbians.

It's all bad, but this bit struck me as the worst. Wouldn't that make it illegal to work towards overturning this law, and leave people with no option but to revolt?

Most revolts happen -because- the people have no other recourse in response to unjust governance. History tends to repeat in spite of the opportunities to learn from it.
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Re: Uganda considering imposing death penalty on HIV+ gays

Postby Cynical Idealist » Mon Nov 30, 2009 9:48 pm UTC

Decker wrote:I'm still a little gobsmacked at the phrase "Aggrivated Homosexuality".

Gobsmacked.

That's the closest word I've thought of or seen for what that phrase makes me think.

Thanks.
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Re: Uganda considering imposing death penalty on HIV+ gays

Postby Nomic » Mon Nov 30, 2009 11:24 pm UTC

SO basicly, we're talking about a country that ahs usccesfully campaigned to reduce the HIV infection rates within the populace, but as the campaigns have only targetted heterosexuals, the infection rates in homosexual populace has remained unchanged. This is clearly a problem, and the goverment recognices it as such. So in order to fix it, the'll have to do a similar campaign targetted at homesxuals....Or they could just kill em all. What the hell, people. What. The. Hell. HAVE YOU NOT LEARNED ANYTHING!? If you present a solution that begins with the phrase "how about we just kill them all?" things are not going to end well! And I bet it would be cheaper to just just do an anti-HIV campaign than to find, trial and kill several thousand people, so it doesn't even make sense from a economical point of view.

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Re: Uganda considering imposing death penalty on HIV+ gays

Postby Durandal » Tue Dec 01, 2009 1:05 am UTC

psyck0 wrote:Read my article. The government is motivated by an extremist, fundamentalist Christian group that operates worldwide but has a strong base in the US with the senators and congressmen I mentioned, among others. They hate gays.


Just... shut up. Seriously. Evidence presented amounts to 'well these guys are associated with these guys'.

This thread was doing fine before your conspiracy mongering. Seriously, people filled with irrational hatred that jump to conclusions like you make the rest of us look bad.

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Re: Uganda considering imposing death penalty on HIV+ gays

Postby psyck0 » Tue Dec 01, 2009 1:10 am UTC

It is ironic that you are saying I have irrational hatred in a thread devoted to the topic of fundamentalists killing gays.

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Re: Uganda considering imposing death penalty on HIV+ gays

Postby Durandal » Tue Dec 01, 2009 1:11 am UTC

...I don't think you know what irony means.

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Re: Uganda considering imposing death penalty on HIV+ gays

Postby psyck0 » Tue Dec 01, 2009 2:05 am UTC

If you dislike my "conspiracy theory", let's get a quote from a member of the organisation.

David Quo wrote:The Fellowship’s reach into governments around the world is almost impossible to overstate or even grasp
. This guy worked for Dubya, or more specifically, in his office of Faith-Based Initiatives (how did THAT pass muster with separation of church and state?).

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Re: Uganda considering imposing death penalty on HIV+ gays

Postby Bright Shadows » Tue Dec 01, 2009 2:13 am UTC

psyck0 wrote:If you dislike my "conspiracy theory", let's get a quote from a member of the organisation.

David Quo wrote:The Fellowship’s reach into governments around the world is almost impossible to overstate or even grasp
. This guy worked for Dubya, or more specifically, in his office of Faith-Based Initiatives (how did THAT pass muster with separation of church and state?).

That quote isn't really incriminating in the way you want it to be. Sorry. Good try though.
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Re: Uganda considering imposing death penalty on HIV+ gays

Postby Leo8 » Tue Jan 19, 2010 5:34 pm UTC

Well what can I say except I was born in Uganda and had to leave when the political power rid all the non- Ugandan nationals. Yes I am gay. Now I see that The religous groups and David Bahati quoted that "we have our children in schools to protect against being recruited into homosexuality" What a nonsense statement for an 'maybe' intelligent man. You do not recruit gays like you recruit people into church, plase sit back and learn that being gay is not a condition or a disease that can be cured. What will be next? I think Uganda and the religous groups should get busy in getting the country in order --recently I was there my home town a ruin after 30 years I had returned. The conditions have worsened. Lack of education and if there is any available true facts about Ugandan history have been lost during the past 30 years. It is a shame that the leaders cannot get their act together. Now they pick on homosexuality. Just shows how idiotic thinking the people who have brief exposure to education have and I will not even make a comment on religon as I have faith too and will not insult another but will say htis no religon allows an individual to kill anyone.The bill against homosexuality is not justified. Am I said that I left Uganda when I wa a child due to the evil dictator Amin -- Yes. Am I glad I will now never return --Yes due to what I have recently seen and now this bill against homosexulaity. Is Uganda on a losing road -- probabaly YES!

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Re: Uganda considering imposing death penalty on HIV+ gays

Postby ianf » Tue Jan 19, 2010 10:21 pm UTC

Dibley wrote:I love how the first comment is "you can't criticize them, that would be intolerance and imperialism!"


I don't think criticism is particularly effective - my problem is that I'm at a loss as to what would be effective.

And I do think that imperialism is part of the issue here - although historically, not some notional present day attitude. I don't know much about Uganda, but take Jamaica as an example. Jamaica was a British colony and at its time of independence (1962) homosexuality was still illegal in the UK (until 1967*). So it took forward that attitude and that (combined with Jamaica's greater adherence to Christianity than its former colonial ruler) meant that it retained that mindset - resulting in the fact that homosexuality is still a crime in Jamaica and attacks on gay men usually go unpunished.

Combine that with the continued push of Christianity in the developing world (e.g. teaching that condoms are a bad thing) and there are a whole heap of problems arising from the West.

Given that history, I think you can't just criticise these countries and expect them to change. First (as others have said), you need to change the influences from the West which are keeping this mindset going.

*You can easily argue that homosexuality in the UK is still not on an equal footing with heterosexuality. It is only recently that the age of consent for gay sex was brought down from 21 to 18 and even so it's still higher than the age of consent for heterosexuals. Well technically the age of consent is the same, but practically speaking it is not.

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Re: Uganda considering imposing death penalty on HIV+ gays

Postby VDOgamez » Tue Jan 19, 2010 11:58 pm UTC

Do these laws apply only to citizens, or to anybody in the country? If the latter, there are going to be some major problems. If a homosexual passes through the country on a trip, are they arrested? Then, if they test positive for HIV are they killed? What if a person's airplane stops there to transfer, and at the airport makes a comment on how he can't believe how dumb the laws are there against homosexuality? What if somebody living there sees a man with long hair and a pink shirt? Do they then call the police because that might mean that they are gay? (Or a hippie, which may or may not also be illegal there...) I really hope that I misunderstand these laws, or I am never going near there, for fear that I may be arrested for making random comments, not arresting somebody for having a high pitched voice, getting convicted for being happy, or being in possession of hazardous materials. :mrgreen:

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Re: Uganda considering imposing death penalty on HIV+ gays

Postby Griffmo » Wed Jan 20, 2010 11:52 pm UTC

I'd assume just Citizens, since I know of a few gay people in the Peace Corps. Putting to death American (or British, or Canadian) citizens for being gay might not go over well with the UN. Speaking of the UN, where the hell are they on this? Wasn't the UN formed to make sure this didn't happen again?
Also, if it makes a difference I will now be referring to this bill as the "Ugandan Genocide Bill" since it's very clearly what this is.
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Re: Uganda considering imposing death penalty on HIV+ gays

Postby psyck0 » Thu Jan 21, 2010 1:12 am UTC

They are no longer going to kill gay folks. They are just going to imprison them for life.

Also, to those of you yelling CONSPIRACY THEORY, here is an article in the New York Times about US involvement causing this.

Fucking religion.

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Re: Uganda considering imposing death penalty on HIV+ gays

Postby Lucrece » Thu Jan 21, 2010 1:40 am UTC

While the group may have introduced the idea, the legislation see wide support in the legislative body and near uniform support in Ugandan population.

This is not some case of a country being manipulated into prejudice. The population is just socially primitive.

A Malawi gay couple that did a wedding ceremony got prosecuted for the wedding. One of the men was so thoroughly abused by the public and the system that he vomited and fainted in court. Know what happened? They just left him there until he composed himself, and then ordered him to go get a mop and clean it up. In their culture this is derogatory to any man, as it is deemed a female task (they have a rigid gender binary).

People were calling the couple "Auntie (Insert name of part of the couple)".

Most places of the world are Hell for gay people, but in Africa it is pretty much uniform outside of South Africa; and even in South Africa where a court ruled for gay marriage, the populace has not caught up to the government and lesbians are getting gang-raped and stabbed as "reparative therapy".

So, yeah, the notion that it's only radical Muslim countries killing off gays is false, as several of these African countries are Christian.
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