Fight Censorship! Have the middle-schoolers swear in class?

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Re: Fight Censorship! Have the middle-schoolers swear in class?

Postby Box Boy » Wed Dec 09, 2009 9:32 pm UTC

gmalivuk wrote:I wouldn't recommend saying it in an 8th grade classroom, though.

I second that notion, from experience.
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Re: Fight Censorship! Have the middle-schoolers swear in class?

Postby Princess Marzipan » Wed Dec 09, 2009 10:08 pm UTC

Nigger is hardly an example of a swear word - it's a hateful racial slur and has no place in discourse, civilized or otherwise. (I'm referring to actually using the word in any real sense; discussing it sort of requires mentioning it, which is not remotely like really using it.)
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Re: Fight Censorship! Have the middle-schoolers swear in class?

Postby Will » Wed Dec 09, 2009 10:12 pm UTC

gmalivuk wrote:
H2SO4 wrote:The point is that kind of vulgarity is unnecessary

Ice cream is also unnecessary.

You shut your damn whore mouth.
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Re: Fight Censorship! Have the middle-schoolers swear in class?

Postby Kyrn » Thu Dec 10, 2009 1:05 am UTC

I still think swearing, like sex education, should both be compulsory and done early (and possibly together, seeing how swear words occasionally uses swear words. Fact is, kids encounter them (both) early, and encounter them often (in terms of sex, not necessarily with others).

Then again, rationale like this are what makes me think I'd make a very lousy parent.
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Re: Fight Censorship! Have the middle-schoolers swear in class?

Postby gmalivuk » Thu Dec 10, 2009 1:08 am UTC

Sex ed early would actually result in a better informed populace, which is good all around.

Swear words early would only lessen the impact of those words, so they'd be replaced by other ones. I'm not sure there's really a whole lot of point to doing that.
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Re: Fight Censorship! Have the middle-schoolers swear in class?

Postby Kyrn » Thu Dec 10, 2009 1:12 am UTC

gmalivuk wrote:Sex ed early would actually result in a better informed populace, which is good all around.

Swear words early would only lessen the impact of those words, so they'd be replaced by other ones. I'm not sure there's really a whole lot of point to doing that.


Not just a technical education, a philosophical (or moralistic) one. Like how one should not punch another in the face when one is angry at another (in the process of teaching self-defense).
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Re: Fight Censorship! Have the middle-schoolers swear in class?

Postby Bright Shadows » Thu Dec 10, 2009 1:25 am UTC

Kyrn wrote:
gmalivuk wrote:Sex ed early would actually result in a better informed populace, which is good all around.

Swear words early would only lessen the impact of those words, so they'd be replaced by other ones. I'm not sure there's really a whole lot of point to doing that.


Not just a technical education, a philosophical (or moralistic) one. Like how one should not punch another in the face when one is angry at another (in the process of teaching self-defense).

I really don't want public schools teaching kids to believe a philosophy, fair or not. Some basic things would be needed to have a school at all, of course, but beyond what's needed to operate, I get itchy.
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Re: Fight Censorship! Have the middle-schoolers swear in class?

Postby Twelfthroot » Thu Dec 10, 2009 1:32 am UTC

Example: "I don't give a f**k what you think" translates to "I don't give a sex what you think."

In what sense are you claiming it "translates" to that? It means exactly "I don't give a fuck what you think." Possible paraphrases are "I don't give a shit what you think," "I don't care what you think and fuck you," and so on. Yes, one definition of 'fuck' is 'to have sex', but that's not the sense in which it's being used here. It doesn't 'translate to "don't give a sex" any more than "He did a lousy job" translates to "He did a parasitic insect job."


I think that banning a book because it contains profanity is absurd, for a number of reasons, and I don't have enough information to say if this teacher handled the matter in an educative manner. But the question is, of the things a parent expects his or her child to not be exposed to in school, which are reasonable expectations and which are not? I'd like to think that the parents' complaints were along the lines of "I agree profanity is simply language but your teacher's use of class time was wasteful and the lesson simply for shock value!" but I imagine, fueled with bias, that it was more akin to "You said the f-word? They made you say the f-word!? Go wash your mouth out while I go yell at people!" and I have a hard time fighting the desire to say "Yeah, tough shit." and calling it a day.

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Re: Fight Censorship! Have the middle-schoolers swear in class?

Postby Walter.Horvath » Thu Dec 10, 2009 2:16 am UTC

Cynical Idealist wrote:
JBJ wrote:3 of those aren't universally bad.
Spoiler:
bitch - can reference a female dog
bastard - term of endearment for some US Marines. Legitimate use for a child out of wedlock
ass - legitimate use for a donkey

As for nigger, fuck, damn, and cunt, I could probably come up with something, but I'd be stretching it.

Spoiler:
For damn: theological discussions

Well, yes, but they can be accepted as generally the highest level of bad words that are usually always regarded as 'bad words,' as in you'd be purposely trying to sound vulgar if you started calling your friends "Mah bastards," a donkey an ass, and (outside of dog competitions (or Britain)), bitch for a female dog. Damn obviously has some place between, but most of these words began as simple terms that had meaning, not just utter nonsense.

George Carlin seems to agree with my number, though not the actual words :P

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Re: Fight Censorship! Have the middle-schoolers swear in class?

Postby Cynical Idealist » Thu Dec 10, 2009 3:05 am UTC

gmalivuk wrote:bastard and nigger are both words which are never neutral, and which can only be used in-group, as among soldiers or whatever.

"The bastard child of..."
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Re: Fight Censorship! Have the middle-schoolers swear in class?

Postby TheGrammarBolshevik » Thu Dec 10, 2009 4:41 am UTC

Right — that usage is pejorative, and offensive to people who are generally offended by swear words.
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Re: Fight Censorship! Have the middle-schoolers swear in class?

Postby Owijad » Thu Dec 10, 2009 4:42 am UTC

I don't know, I think you could get some mileage out of, say, a social studies class that went through some swear words we've got, though maybe a little later into high school.

All, "here's a curse you all know and love. here's why it started being offensive, and here's why it's offensive now, and here's what you're saying when you use it."

I'd wager that'd make a good bit more difference in some lives than learning about ancient Mesopotamia or some shit.
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Re: Fight Censorship! Have the middle-schoolers swear in class?

Postby Kyrn » Thu Dec 10, 2009 4:57 am UTC

Owijad wrote:I don't know, I think you could get some mileage out of, say, a social studies class that went through some swear words we've got, though maybe a little later into high school.

All, "here's a curse you all know and love. here's why it started being offensive, and here's why it's offensive now, and here's what you're saying when you use it."

I'd wager that'd make a good bit more difference in some lives than learning about ancient Mesopotamia or some shit.


I believe that would be more akin to modern cultural studies.

Units would include vulgarity, income divide, modern politics (with an entire subsection on international politics), Internet culture (including an analysis on the dickward theory) and philosophy (in regards to cross-religion, politics, and money).
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Re: Fight Censorship! Have the middle-schoolers swear in class?

Postby gmalivuk » Thu Dec 10, 2009 5:03 am UTC

Owijad wrote:I don't know, I think you could get some mileage out of, say, a social studies class that went through some swear words we've got, though maybe a little later into high school.

Or a linguistics class.

I'd wager that'd make a good bit more difference in some lives than learning about ancient Mesopotamia or some shit.

You shut your damn pie hole. No namby pamby class about swear words is going to make more difference in their lives than the motherfuckers who invented beer.

Also, ancient Mesopotamia is awesome.
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Re: Fight Censorship! Have the middle-schoolers swear in class?

Postby Omegaton » Thu Dec 10, 2009 5:09 am UTC

gmalivuk wrote:You shut your damn pie hole. No namby pamby class about swear words is going to make more difference in their lives than the motherfuckers who invented beer.

That was a detail that wasn't included in my World History class... Good to know.

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Re: Fight Censorship! Have the middle-schoolers swear in class?

Postby gmalivuk » Thu Dec 10, 2009 5:13 am UTC

Probably the only reason anyone bothered going through with the agricultural revolution, really.
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Re: Fight Censorship! Have the middle-schoolers swear in class?

Postby H2SO4 » Thu Dec 10, 2009 7:17 am UTC

It's also worth noting that in this school district, minors have to get parental permission to watch an R-rated movie, even 17-year-old highschoolers.
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Re: Fight Censorship! Have the middle-schoolers swear in class?

Postby TaintedDeity » Thu Dec 10, 2009 7:51 am UTC

That would seem a legally wise plan. Isn't the age restriction for an R-rated movie 18 years old?
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Re: Fight Censorship! Have the middle-schoolers swear in class?

Postby Amnesiasoft » Thu Dec 10, 2009 7:59 am UTC

No, R is 17.

http://www.break.com/usercontent/2008/8 ... 60347.html
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Re: Fight Censorship! Have the middle-schoolers swear in class?

Postby H2SO4 » Thu Dec 10, 2009 8:23 am UTC

The point is with that not about the legal age for R-movies, but rather things that people can deem vulgar have to have parental permission no matter what age.
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Re: Fight Censorship! Have the middle-schoolers swear in class?

Postby Owijad » Thu Dec 10, 2009 8:37 am UTC

Cultural studies, sure, linguistics, yeah. But we're talking about secondary education here. We really haven't time for more than half a class of the fuck bitch ass curriculum any way you swing it, let alone a whole course.

Besides, giving the Mesopotamians credit for beer is silly. We're talking about the people who we credit with inventing the barter system. It's not like you had to go very far out of your way to be the first to do shit back then.
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Re: Fight Censorship! Have the middle-schoolers swear in class?

Postby gmalivuk » Thu Dec 10, 2009 4:45 pm UTC

Well sure, but there were still plenty of other folks around the world at the time, and none of *them* invented beer. The whole not having agriculture to begin with probably had something to do with that.
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Re: Fight Censorship! Have the middle-schoolers swear in class?

Postby Belial » Thu Dec 10, 2009 5:57 pm UTC

gmalivuk wrote:Well sure, but there were still plenty of other folks around the world at the time, and none of *them* invented beer. The whole not having agriculture to begin with probably had something to do with that.


But then, there's a good chance we developed agriculture in order to have a reliable source of beer...
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Re: Fight Censorship! Have the middle-schoolers swear in class?

Postby Princess Marzipan » Thu Dec 10, 2009 6:13 pm UTC

RTFT. =P

gmalivuk wrote:Probably the only reason anyone bothered going through with the agricultural revolution, really.
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Re: Fight Censorship! Have the middle-schoolers swear in class?

Postby Ixtellor » Thu Dec 10, 2009 6:16 pm UTC

gmalivuk wrote:Probably the only reason anyone bothered going through with the agricultural revolution, really.


Well that, plus the benefits of a stable food supply. Growing Corn > looking for wild corn.
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Re: Fight Censorship! Have the middle-schoolers swear in class?

Postby Belial » Thu Dec 10, 2009 6:17 pm UTC

I think I hit the part where he blamed everyone else not having beer on them not having agriculture, and my brain decided that only one of those comment could have actually existed, and deleted the other from my subjective reality to avoid the infinite loop.

In other words, I totally read that and then forgot it in record time. My bad.
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Re: Fight Censorship! Have the middle-schoolers swear in class?

Postby Qaanol » Thu Dec 10, 2009 7:30 pm UTC

Not to interrupt this fine discourse on the origin of brewing, but I'd like to point out that 'bastard' can refer to the teeth of a metal file, to a type of sword, and to a type of cannon.
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Re: Fight Censorship! Have the middle-schoolers swear in class?

Postby Kyrn » Fri Dec 11, 2009 12:48 am UTC

Relating to education, there's three subjects which I find is drastically lacking, two which I mentioned (modern culture, and sexual education).

The last I'd think is fairly important is personal economics. About sovereign tax laws, how to balance your own income, how to plan for long term (savings, endowment funds, insurance...), basics of supply and demand, the "common" sense of buy low, sell high, etc.

Also, I do not see any flaw of morals being taught, so long as it is varied and not assertive. Aka more of an analysis on morals than what morals should be.
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Re: Fight Censorship! Have the middle-schoolers swear in class?

Postby Internetmeme » Fri Dec 11, 2009 1:21 am UTC

Not sure if it's in response to this, but guess what they're taking out of the cirriculum? Any movies with swear words CANNOT be shown. Well, there goes every modern non-childrens' movie ever, even if it is relevant to the class.
There's also a rumor among teachers that books with swear words will be taken out of the cirriculum. Well, there goes the entire novel part of that. Just think about it:

Books with curse words that are read often here (considering "hell" a curse word):
-Huck Finn
-Tom Sawyer
-The Crucible
-The Red Badge of Courage
-Redwall
-A Streetcar Named Desire
-Most horror books
-The Bible

And to think, you can check out a copy of Mein Kempf, but you can't watch a movie with curse words... Which do you think would hurt the students more?(Seriously, the Hitler book is in our library in a public High School)
Also, anyone blind enough to his or her own students that can't see that they curse, and that a movie with the word "damn" in it is corrupting our youth even more than Mein Kempf would, needs to find a new job.
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Re: Fight Censorship! Have the middle-schoolers swear in class?

Postby Diadem » Fri Dec 11, 2009 1:32 am UTC

Internetmeme wrote:Mein Kempf

It's "Mein Kampf" from the German verb "Kampfen" which means to fight, to battle, to struggle. The common English translation is "My Struggle".

I'm all in favour of allowing Mein Kampf in high school, though it's probably wise to get the annotated version then. But allowing Mein Kampf and the bible while banning pretty much every literary classic - or at least the interesting ones - is just insane.

Swearing is an important part of the language. In many cases, a swearword is simply the most direct, most efficient and most accurate way of expressing an emotion. Only smallminded people think swearwords are bad.
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Re: Fight Censorship! Have the middle-schoolers swear in class?

Postby H2SO4 » Fri Dec 11, 2009 2:13 am UTC

The problem with the parents is not solely that the swearword was in class, but that the teacher asked students to repeat it back to him, thereby encouraging them to use the word, all without the prior consent of the parent or the administration.

In many cases, a swearword is simply the most direct, most efficient and most accurate way of expressing an emotion.

Really? I find there are other, equally (if not more) accurate ways of expressing emotion (which in this case, the only emotions I can think of that swear words express are anger, frustration, and dislike) that are also less offensive. Though this brings up an interesting topic: Why do you need to so "accurately" express anger, frustration and/or dislike? Isn't that just making your problem someone else's problem? I can understand the need for help to find a solution to a particular problem you're having and going to outside sources for it, but I feel you don't need to make a general, offensive broadcast to have outside sources come to you.
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Re: Fight Censorship! Have the middle-schoolers swear in class?

Postby TheGrammarBolshevik » Fri Dec 11, 2009 2:58 am UTC

H2SO4 wrote:Really? I find there are other, equally (if not more) accurate ways of expressing emotion ... that are also less offensive.

Sometimes offensiveness isn't a consideration, especially since a lot of people aren't offended by swear words. That takes offensiveness out of the equation for word choice, which really can't be generalized for all situations by a random guy on the Internet.

H2SO4 wrote:(which in this case, the only emotions I can think of that swear words express are anger, frustration, and dislike)

"Fuck yeah!"

H2SO4 wrote:Though this brings up an interesting topic: Why do you need to so "accurately" express anger, frustration and/or dislike? Isn't that just making your problem someone else's problem? I can understand the need for help to find a solution to a particular problem you're having and going to outside sources for it, but I feel you don't need to make a general, offensive broadcast to have outside sources come to you.

Again, you're assuming that everyone who hears a swear word is going to run away crying, so that I need to avoid swearing in order to improve my people skills. Trust me: I do not have a friend shortage. When I swear — and, yes, it is rather frequent — I do so only in the presence of people who aren't going to object. It is in no sense a "general, offensive broadcast."

Swearing can also be used to be deliberately offensive when it's used to express anger toward a specific person. Are you going to recommend inoffensive ways to do that?
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Re: Fight Censorship! Have the middle-schoolers swear in class?

Postby Prefanity » Fri Dec 11, 2009 3:06 am UTC

H2SO4 wrote:
In many cases, a swearword is simply the most direct, most efficient and most accurate way of expressing an emotion.

Really? I find there are other, equally (if not more) accurate ways of expressing emotion (which in this case, the only emotions I can think of that swear words express are anger, frustration, and dislike) that are also less offensive. Though this brings up an interesting topic: Why do you need to so "accurately" express anger, frustration and/or dislike? Isn't that just making your problem someone else's problem? I can understand the need for help to find a solution to a particular problem you're having and going to outside sources for it, but I feel you don't need to make a general, offensive broadcast to have outside sources come to you.


You can express amorousness by saying, "I want to fuck you", "Let's fuck", "Fuck me", etc. But even if one is using a curse word to express anger or frustration, so what? Are you here to tell me my own choices during communication aren't good enough? Now and again I use a curse word because it is absolutely the best word I can think of, and it's neat you apparently never do that, but you don't get to be the authority on my language.

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Re: Fight Censorship! Have the middle-schoolers swear in class?

Postby gmalivuk » Fri Dec 11, 2009 4:08 am UTC

Yeah, fuck this notion that I'm somehow obligated to remove all offensiveness from my language. Especially when there are times when the whole point is to say something that isn't all demure and polite and shit.

After all, it's not as if H2SO4 is any less offensive when voicing his own political views, simply because he doesn't use "bad" words when doing so...
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Re: Fight Censorship! Have the middle-schoolers swear in class?

Postby Kyrn » Fri Dec 11, 2009 4:48 am UTC

Although there is the justification that censoring via *bleep* (whether self-inflicted or otherwise) is often more humourous than outright swearing... not that it means much, since everyone knows you're swearing under those censor bars.
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Re: Fight Censorship! Have the middle-schoolers swear in class?

Postby gmalivuk » Fri Dec 11, 2009 5:13 am UTC

Kyrn wrote:since everyone knows you're swearing under those censor bars.

I **** the spiders on the wall, for example?
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Re: Fight Censorship! Have the middle-schoolers swear in class?

Postby Lewton » Fri Dec 11, 2009 7:13 am UTC

H2SO4 wrote:the only emotions I can think of that swear words express are anger, frustration, and dislike)


Disbelief, amazement
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"What the hell was that?"
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Re: Fight Censorship! Have the middle-schoolers swear in class?

Postby The Reaper » Fri Dec 11, 2009 7:18 am UTC

Lewton wrote:
H2SO4 wrote:the only emotions I can think of that swear words express are anger, frustration, and dislike)


Disbelief, amazement
"You gotta be fucking kidding me!"
"What the hell was that?"
"Jesus tittyfucking christ, that was godfucking amazing!"

Anti-censor consumerism.
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Re: Fight Censorship! Have the middle-schoolers swear in class?

Postby Diadem » Fri Dec 11, 2009 7:29 am UTC

Lewton wrote:
H2SO4 wrote:the only emotions I can think of that swear words express are anger, frustration, and dislike)


Disbelief, amazement
"You gotta be fucking kidding me!"
"What the hell was that?"
"Jesus tittyfucking christ, that was godfucking amazing!"

Rocco: Fuckin'- What the fuckin'. Fuck. Who the fuck fucked this fucking... How did you two fucking fucks... [shouts] Fuck!
Connor: Well, that certainly illustrates the diversity of the word.


And who can blame Rocco. Somehow saying 'gosh' when you walk into a room full of dead bodies doesn't carry the same weight.

Besides it's a mistake to think that you can remove swearwords from your vocabulary. You will always need words at the far end of the emotional spectrum. You can use different words, but then those words just become swears.
It's one of those irregular verbs, isn't it? I have an independent mind, you are an eccentric, he is round the twist
- Bernard Woolley in Yes, Prime Minister

Kyrn
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Location: The Internet

Re: Fight Censorship! Have the middle-schoolers swear in class?

Postby Kyrn » Fri Dec 11, 2009 7:34 am UTC

Also, there's Fucking, Austria.

(idly tries to make a "Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo." sentence using "Fuck"... Fucking Fucking fuckers fucking Fucking fuckers fucking fuck fucking fuck fucking Fucking fuckers.)

Diadem wrote:Besides it's a mistake to think that you can remove swearwords from your vocabulary. You will always need words at the far end of the emotional spectrum. You can use different words, but then those words just become swears.


I sometimes replace "fuck" with "fish" myself, which just sounds odd in retrospect. (then again, so would replacing "fish" with "fuck"..)
I am NOT a snake.

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