Israel/Palestine discussion

Seen something interesting in the news or on the intertubes? Discuss it here.

Moderators: Zamfir, Hawknc, Moderators General, Prelates

yoni45
Posts: 2123
Joined: Sun Jul 08, 2007 9:16 am UTC
Contact:

Re: Israel/Palestine discussion

Postby yoni45 » Sun May 22, 2011 3:00 pm UTC

yedidyak wrote:Considering Iraq, Jordan, Egypt, Syria and Lebanon fought Israel in 1948, and Algeria, Libya and various other countries have fought Israel in 67, as well as expelling their Jews, most of whom moved to Israel, they are involved.


Uh, no? They're still separate entities individually accountable.

Or, then we'd have even more reason to define this as an "Arab vs. the West" conflict, and accept Palestinian attacks on Israel as legitimate until Israel forces the US to get out of Iraq -- the US hugely supports and supported Israel in its war efforts, most notably in the '73 war.

sourmìlk wrote:You're reading too much into the placement of that quote in the article. If you look at what's directly after it, you'll see the article talk about Arab citizens in Israel. Abbas advocates for an apartheid state.


Lol. Talk about stretching the facts to line up with what you're looking for. The guy doesn't even mention Jews, but Israelis, and moreover talks in the context of an IDF presence in the West Bank -- and you somehow interpret this to mean he's advocating for an Apartheid state free of Jews because somewhere the article talks about Arab citizens of Israel.
I sell LSAT courses and LSAT course accessories. Admittedly, we're still working on the accessories.

User avatar
sourmìlk
If I can't complain, can I at least express my fear?
Posts: 6393
Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2008 10:53 pm UTC
Location: permanently in the wrong
Contact:

Re: Israel/Palestine discussion

Postby sourmìlk » Sun May 22, 2011 3:08 pm UTC

yoni45 wrote:
Lol. Talk about stretching the facts to line up with what you're looking for. The guy doesn't even mention Jews, but Israelis, and moreover talks in the context of an IDF presence in the West Bank

But he doesn't mention it in that context. You just think it does because of the particular (though irrelevant) arrangement of the article)
-- and you somehow interpret this to mean he's advocating for an Apartheid state free of Jews because somewhere the article talks about Arab citizens of Israel.

My point was that the article also appears to indicate that his statements are in the contexts of the rights of minorities in Israel and Palestine.
Terry Pratchett wrote:The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it.

yoni45
Posts: 2123
Joined: Sun Jul 08, 2007 9:16 am UTC
Contact:

Re: Israel/Palestine discussion

Postby yoni45 » Sun May 22, 2011 4:06 pm UTC

But he doesn't mention it in that context. You just think it does because of the particular (though irrelevant) arrangement of the article)


Yup, because a statement followed by "he was commenting on..." is so clearly a set of completely unrelated ideas...
I sell LSAT courses and LSAT course accessories. Admittedly, we're still working on the accessories.

User avatar
sourmìlk
If I can't complain, can I at least express my fear?
Posts: 6393
Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2008 10:53 pm UTC
Location: permanently in the wrong
Contact:

Re: Israel/Palestine discussion

Postby sourmìlk » Sun May 22, 2011 4:10 pm UTC

yoni45 wrote:
But he doesn't mention it in that context. You just think it does because of the particular (though irrelevant) arrangement of the article)


Yup, because a statement followed by "he was commenting on..." is so clearly a set of completely unrelated ideas...

Oh, you appear to be right. For whatever reason I was looking at another article where the connection wasn't as clear.
Terry Pratchett wrote:The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it.

User avatar
sourmìlk
If I can't complain, can I at least express my fear?
Posts: 6393
Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2008 10:53 pm UTC
Location: permanently in the wrong
Contact:

Re: Israel/Palestine discussion

Postby sourmìlk » Thu Jun 02, 2011 1:58 pm UTC

Egypt Closes Rafah Border Crossing

DEBKAFile wrote:Affter the much-heralded opening of the Rafah crossing between the Gaza Strip and Sinai to free passage, Cairo virtually shut it down Tuesday, May 31, by a series of tight bureaucratic restrictions on Palestinian exit and entry.

DEBKAfile's military and Washington sources disclose that Military Council Chairman Field Marshal Mohammed Tantawi personally signed the new orders in response to an insistent US demand based on the information that since the Rafah crossing opened to free passage Saturday, May 28, Palestinian and al Qaeda terrorists had swarmed through and were roaming at large across Sinai and laying the Suez Canal and its coastal cities open to attack.
Terry Pratchett wrote:The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it.

User avatar
Iulus Cofield
WINNING
Posts: 2917
Joined: Wed Apr 07, 2010 9:31 am UTC

Re: Israel/Palestine discussion

Postby Iulus Cofield » Fri Jun 03, 2011 12:13 pm UTC

Lebanon heads off planned Palestinian protest/march to Israeli border
Spoiler:
Palestinians in Lebanon will postpone a "Naksa Day" march to the border with Israel that had been planned for Sunday, after facing pressure from Lebanese authorities, the Lebanese newspaper The Daily Star reported on Friday.

"Naksa Day" marks the anniversary of the start of the 1967 Six Day War, during which Israel took control of East Jerusalem, the West Bank and the Gaza Strip.

An organizer of the planned march told The Daily Star that he was not concerned with the June 5 date.

“Our aim is to reach the borders, regardless of the date of the march," Yasser Azzam was quoted as saying. "We as Palestinian refugees in Lebanon are not concerned with June 5.”

On Thursday, the Lebanese Army declared the area around the country's border with Israel a closed military zone, a move aimed at preventing Palestinian protesters from demonstrating in the area over the weekend.

Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said on Thursday that Israel will be decisive in protecting its borders against infiltrating protesters, warning Syria and Lebanon ahead of upcoming Naksa Day border protests.

"Like any country in the world, Israel has the right and duty to guard and defend its borders," Netanyahu said. "Therefore my instructions are clear, to act with restraint, but with the necessary decisiveness to protect our borders, our communities and our citizens."

On May 15, Israeli forces killed 11 demonstrators when Palestinians marched to the Israel-Lebanon border.

The Palestinians had been participating in a rally in Maroun al-Ras commemorating what they call the Nakba, or disaster, the day when the Jewish state was established in 1948.

On Thursday, Netanyahu said that Iran, Syria, Hezbollah and Hamas were behind last month's deadly demonstrations, adding that "in the next few days those groups will retry to challenge Israel's sovereignty."


Netanyahu's statements once again do little to inspire confidence.

User avatar
sourmìlk
If I can't complain, can I at least express my fear?
Posts: 6393
Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2008 10:53 pm UTC
Location: permanently in the wrong
Contact:

Re: Israel/Palestine discussion

Postby sourmìlk » Fri Jun 03, 2011 1:11 pm UTC

Eh, I felt they were relatively innocuous, particularly after the last protest. What else was he supposed to say?

The fact that there are still Palestinians considered refugees, 63 years after the war, is really just sad. It's unprecedented in history how horribly the Palestinian refugees have been treated by their own people: refugees have pretty much always been able to settle in the countries they fled to (barring if they were surrounded by enemy countries, but that's not the case with the Palestinians), but the Palestinians have been kept in camps for decades. Germans after WWII would able to settle in the US, hundreds of thousands of Jews were allowed to settle in Israel, but there are still hundreds of thousands of Palestinian refugees kept in camps. The camps in Lebanon became slums because, despite the fact that the Lebanese were Arabs as well, they've denied rights to the Palestinians and the refugee camps have turned into slums.

Only in Syria and Jordan do Palestinian refugees have access to government services, but they're barred from owning land in Syria. The Casablanca Protocol states that Palestinian refugees shouldn't gain citizenship in Arab countries. Even Gaza, a Palestinian territory, has refused to let Palestinian refugees settle.

The hundreds of thousands of Jews that fled to Israel were able integrated out of the Ma'abarot in a few years, but despite the fact that the Palestinians spread to a significantly larger area than Israel, they are still in refugee camps: why have the countries that claim to be their allies refuse to integrate them?
Terry Pratchett wrote:The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it.

User avatar
aleflamedyud
wants your cookies
Posts: 3307
Joined: Tue Oct 09, 2007 7:50 pm UTC
Location: The Central Bureaucracy

Re: Israel/Palestine discussion

Postby aleflamedyud » Fri Jun 03, 2011 6:57 pm UTC

sourmìlk wrote:Eh, I felt they were relatively innocuous, particularly after the last protest. What else was he supposed to say?

The fact that there are still Palestinians considered refugees, 63 years after the war, is really just sad. It's unprecedented in history how horribly the Palestinian refugees have been treated by their own people: refugees have pretty much always been able to settle in the countries they fled to (barring if they were surrounded by enemy countries, but that's not the case with the Palestinians), but the Palestinians have been kept in camps for decades. Germans after WWII would able to settle in the US, hundreds of thousands of Jews were allowed to settle in Israel, but there are still hundreds of thousands of Palestinian refugees kept in camps. The camps in Lebanon became slums because, despite the fact that the Lebanese were Arabs as well, they've denied rights to the Palestinians and the refugee camps have turned into slums.

Only in Syria and Jordan do Palestinian refugees have access to government services, but they're barred from owning land in Syria. The Casablanca Protocol states that Palestinian refugees shouldn't gain citizenship in Arab countries. Even Gaza, a Palestinian territory, has refused to let Palestinian refugees settle.

The hundreds of thousands of Jews that fled to Israel were able integrated out of the Ma'abarot in a few years, but despite the fact that the Palestinians spread to a significantly larger area than Israel, they are still in refugee camps: why have the countries that claim to be their allies refuse to integrate them?

Because as long as the Palestinian refugees remain unintegrated, not into a surrounding Arab country and not into a Palestinian territory/state, they can demand the "right of return" to make Israel into their second Palestinian state.

"Peace will come when the Arabs love their children more than they hate us." -- Golda Meir
"With kindness comes naïveté. Courage becomes foolhardiness. And dedication has no reward. If you can't accept any of that, you are not fit to be a graduate student."

User avatar
Iulus Cofield
WINNING
Posts: 2917
Joined: Wed Apr 07, 2010 9:31 am UTC

Re: Israel/Palestine discussion

Postby Iulus Cofield » Fri Jun 03, 2011 8:11 pm UTC

For a refugee to integrate into another country, they generally have to abandon their claim to return to their country of origin, which most Palestinians are not willing to do. At this point it is an unworkable demand; it's been over 60 years since the displacement. For a long time, it was a reasonable demand which any unwilling refugee would want.
It is also worth noting that Jordan did integrate Palestinian refugees, specifically by annexing the West Bank after the '48 war, although this was only recognized by the US and UK, IIRC. The '67 war ended Jordan's attempt effectively and the Jordanian government officially renounced their claims and handed it over to the PLO in the 80's.

User avatar
sourmìlk
If I can't complain, can I at least express my fear?
Posts: 6393
Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2008 10:53 pm UTC
Location: permanently in the wrong
Contact:

Re: Israel/Palestine discussion

Postby sourmìlk » Fri Jun 03, 2011 8:38 pm UTC

Iulus Cofield wrote:For a refugee to integrate into another country, they generally have to abandon their claim to return to their country of origin, which most Palestinians are not willing to do. At this point it is an unworkable demand; it's been over 60 years since the displacement. For a long time, it was a reasonable demand which any unwilling refugee would want.

That's part of the problem, and the other part is that the Arab nations, with very few exceptions, won't let them integrate. Lebanon grants significantly less rights to Palestinian refugees than they do to other citizens, the Syrians deny Palestinians a few rights (like the ability to own farmland). There's also the problem that the UNRWA, which runs the education for Palestinian refugee camps, instills a very anti-Israel and somewhat anti-Semitic sentiment in its students, which just prolongs the problem.

It is also worth noting that Jordan did integrate Palestinian refugees, specifically by annexing the West Bank after the '48 war, although this was only recognized by the US and UK, IIRC. The '67 war ended Jordan's attempt effectively and the Jordanian government officially renounced their claims and handed it over to the PLO in the 80's.

Yeah, Jordan was one of the only countries to effectively integrate Palestinians mostly because Jordan is the original Palestinian state.
Terry Pratchett wrote:The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it.

User avatar
Dream
WINNING
Posts: 4338
Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2007 7:20 pm UTC
Location: The Hollow Scene Epic

Re: Israel/Palestine discussion

Postby Dream » Sat Jun 04, 2011 7:39 pm UTC

I'm currently imagining the level of outcry that would meet a suggestion that Jewish refugees just integrate into whatever place they end up after being turfed out of their homes. As I imagine it (and it's big, this outcry), I'm also envisaging the mewling that this is different (all Arabs being interchangeable) and shunting Palestinians from Galilee to Bekaa against their will just isn't a big deal.
I knew a woman once, but she died soon after.

User avatar
sourmìlk
If I can't complain, can I at least express my fear?
Posts: 6393
Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2008 10:53 pm UTC
Location: permanently in the wrong
Contact:

Re: Israel/Palestine discussion

Postby sourmìlk » Sat Jun 04, 2011 7:47 pm UTC

Dream wrote:I'm currently imagining the level of outcry that would meet a suggestion that Jewish refugees just integrate into whatever place they end up after being turfed out of their homes.

This is exactly what happened though. The Jews, after their expulsion from Arab lands, either settled and integrated in Israel or were killed. Hell, Baghdad was about a quarter Jewish before Israel declared independence, but you don't see many Jews demanding that they be accepted back into Iraq.
As I imagine it (and it's big, this outcry), I'm also envisaging the mewling that this is different (all Arabs being interchangeable) and shunting Palestinians from Galilee to Bekaa against their will just isn't a big deal.

It is different. The Jews are not a population that poses a threat to the Arab countries should they be reinstated to where they used to live. The Palestinians, on the other hand, rioted before voluntarily (in most cases) leaving, have since been educated in anti-Israel ideology by the UNRWA, and would eliminate Israel as a Jewish state if they were all to emigrate back.
Terry Pratchett wrote:The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it.

User avatar
Dream
WINNING
Posts: 4338
Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2007 7:20 pm UTC
Location: The Hollow Scene Epic

Re: Israel/Palestine discussion

Postby Dream » Sat Jun 04, 2011 7:50 pm UTC

sourmìlk wrote:have since been educated in anti-Israel ideology by the UNRWA

Incredible. It's a whole new level of paranoic conspiracy theorising for these threads, from either side.
I knew a woman once, but she died soon after.

User avatar
sourmìlk
If I can't complain, can I at least express my fear?
Posts: 6393
Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2008 10:53 pm UTC
Location: permanently in the wrong
Contact:

Re: Israel/Palestine discussion

Postby sourmìlk » Sat Jun 04, 2011 8:08 pm UTC

Dream wrote:
sourmìlk wrote:have since been educated in anti-Israel ideology by the UNRWA

Incredible. It's a whole new level of paranoic conspiracy theorising for these threads, from either side.


How about requesting evidence if you disagree with me instead of just insulting me?

First, I will point you to this wikipedia article, which gives examples of textbooks in the Palestinian territories containing anti-Semitic propaganda and statements. These textbooks say that Jews are inherently untrustworthy, they deny the holocaust, and they call the founding of Israel a disaster unprecedented in human history.

Specifically to the UNRWA, the UNRWA hires members of Hamas, which I will remind you is a terrorist group. In fact, many of the teachers in the UNRWA are part of terrorist groups, such as Hamas. The UNRWA also seeks to exacerbate the Palestinian refugee problem by providing a unique definition to "refugee". While the UNHCR defines a refugee as somebody who is outside his country due to fear of being persecuted, the UNRWA extends the refugee status to all descendants of those people. This creates a situation in which descendants of refugees are taught that they shouldn't give up their supposed "right" to return to Israel, despite the fact that no other refugee problem has been considered to have this right. The UNRWA also refuses to teach about the holocaust, though this obviously isn't about some fear of teaching about persecution in general. Also, it should probably be mentioned that the majority of the teachers in the UNRWA teacher's union in Gaza are members of Hamas.

An interesting thing about the UNRWA's definition of refugees: it considers descendants of refugees, such as those in Jordan who actually have Jordanian citizenship, to still be refugees and thus qualified for aid. By that definition, about 2/3rds of Israel's Jewish population should be eligible for UN aid.
Terry Pratchett wrote:The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it.

User avatar
Izawwlgood
WINNING
Posts: 18686
Joined: Mon Nov 19, 2007 3:55 pm UTC
Location: There may be lovelier lovelies...

Re: Israel/Palestine discussion

Postby Izawwlgood » Sat Jun 04, 2011 9:23 pm UTC

Dream wrote:I'm currently imagining the level of outcry that would meet a suggestion that Jewish refugees just integrate into whatever place they end up after being turfed out of their homes.


I mean, they sort of did. A handful of times, actually, throughout history.
... with gigantic melancholies and gigantic mirth, to tread the jeweled thrones of the Earth under his sandalled feet.

User avatar
Dream
WINNING
Posts: 4338
Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2007 7:20 pm UTC
Location: The Hollow Scene Epic

Re: Israel/Palestine discussion

Postby Dream » Sat Jun 04, 2011 10:06 pm UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:
Dream wrote:I'm currently imagining the level of outcry that would meet a suggestion that Jewish refugees just integrate into whatever place they end up after being turfed out of their homes.


I mean, they sort of did. A handful of times, actually, throughout history.

I know. But what if that were advocated as a solution to a refugee crisis of Jewish people, when the population concerned didn't want it? Basically, what if European Jews after 1945 were told to just knuckle down wherever they landed, and try to make themselves part of the population and culture there, because going home, or to Israel, was not something they were allowed to aspire to? If no-one cared about the holocaust, any pogroms or anti semitism, and especially didn't care about the damage to Jewish culture inherent in expecting them to forget who they were and where they came from in order to "integrate"?

I don't see it being possible to advocate for the establishment of the state of Israel without supporting the principles that led to its creation for all of humanity. In fact, Irish diplomats were intimately involved in securing Commonwealth support for the Balfour Declaration for exactly this reason, because the principle would apply to Irish aspirations to nationhood as well as to Jewish ones. In many ways, I'm only posting this from an independent nation because of the same principles and political process that led to the creation of Israel. To claim that a war or two in the last fifty years voids this right for Palestinians is a towering hypocrisy. Not one Palestinian should be expected to integrate when they know their own homeland and still aspire to reside there in peace. Even if they can't achieve that because of "political realities" or whatever Netanyahu call things, no one should be asking them to relinquish their national aspirations, least of all anyone who likes the idea of an Israeli state.
I knew a woman once, but she died soon after.

User avatar
Izawwlgood
WINNING
Posts: 18686
Joined: Mon Nov 19, 2007 3:55 pm UTC
Location: There may be lovelier lovelies...

Re: Israel/Palestine discussion

Postby Izawwlgood » Sat Jun 04, 2011 10:17 pm UTC

There are definite parallels, and I agree that Palestinians shouldn't be told 'tough shit, go make a new life elsewhere'. But A) I don't think integration or emigration results in a people forgetting who or what they are, and B) I think aside from the Jews who went to Israel, that's pretty much what happened in the 1940's. And believe you me, lots of Jews didn't go to Israel. Similarly, I wager a lot of Palestinians have left the Middle East and have settled down elsewhere.

My only point is that saying that there would be an outcry if Jews were told to 'just integrate' after an exodus (deliberate word choice) is simply incorrect; historically speaking, Jews have been told just that, and they have done just that.
... with gigantic melancholies and gigantic mirth, to tread the jeweled thrones of the Earth under his sandalled feet.

User avatar
sourmìlk
If I can't complain, can I at least express my fear?
Posts: 6393
Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2008 10:53 pm UTC
Location: permanently in the wrong
Contact:

Re: Israel/Palestine discussion

Postby sourmìlk » Sat Jun 04, 2011 10:30 pm UTC

Dream wrote:I know. But what if that were advocated as a solution to a refugee crisis of Jewish people, when the population concerned didn't want it? Basically, what if European Jews after 1945 were told to just knuckle down wherever they landed, and try to make themselves part of the population and culture there, because going home, or to Israel, was not something they were allowed to aspire to? If no-one cared about the holocaust, any pogroms or anti semitism, and especially didn't care about the damage to Jewish culture inherent in expecting them to forget who they were and where they came from in order to "integrate"?

This is exactly what happened. In fact, the Jewish Rebellion started mainly because the British refused to allow Jews to emigrate from the countries that they were being persecuted in back to Israel.

To claim that a war or two in the last fifty years voids this right for Palestinians is a towering hypocrisy.

Why do you maintain that the only rationalization for the creation of the state of Israel is that of the right of return for Jewish refugees? Nobody on this forum has ever argued that Israel has a right to exist because Jews lived there thousands of years ago. Israel has a right to exist because Jews have always lived there.

Not one Palestinian should be expected to integrate when they know their own homeland and still aspire to reside there in peace.

First: the Palestinians are Arabs. Their homelands stretches from from Oman to Morocco. Second, if you're referring to Palestine specifically: that doesn't exist. They'll be able to return there the moment that it exists, assuming that the PA allows them back in.
Terry Pratchett wrote:The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it.

yedidyak
Posts: 954
Joined: Mon Apr 12, 2010 10:24 pm UTC
Location: Israel

Re: Israel/Palestine discussion

Postby yedidyak » Sat Jun 04, 2011 10:43 pm UTC

The millions of ethnic German refugees integrated into Germany. The millions of Muslim / Hindu refugees after Partition integrated into India and Pakistan. There were no UN agencies specifically created to keep refugee camps open in any place except for Palestinians.

User avatar
Dream
WINNING
Posts: 4338
Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2007 7:20 pm UTC
Location: The Hollow Scene Epic

Re: Israel/Palestine discussion

Postby Dream » Sat Jun 04, 2011 11:16 pm UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:And believe you me, lots of Jews didn't go to Israel. Similarly, I wager a lot of Palestinians have left the Middle East and have settled down elsewhere.

And both, I'm sure you'll agree, are wrong as long as those outcomes were not the choice of those they happened to, but right where it was their free decision. I don't agree with the treatment of Palestinian refugees as political weapons any more than anyone else here, but wronging them further is not the solution. Similarly, postwar Jewish refugees could choose life elsewhere in the world, in Europe or in Israel and that choice should have been respected, even where, such as in parts of Eastern Europe, they were ousted. What I'm saying is that even if people in general are fucked enough to not kick up a fuss over a human rights crime against Jewish refugees, the point that they should be treated with dignity and respect for their origins regardless of their race still stands, just as it should for Palestinians. Now, I know you're not saying any different, but some people:
sourmìlk wrote:Palestinians are Arabs. Their homelands stretches from from Oman to Morocco.
Are. So my line of argument is sadly necessary.
I knew a woman once, but she died soon after.

User avatar
sourmìlk
If I can't complain, can I at least express my fear?
Posts: 6393
Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2008 10:53 pm UTC
Location: permanently in the wrong
Contact:

Re: Israel/Palestine discussion

Postby sourmìlk » Sat Jun 04, 2011 11:20 pm UTC

I support the creation of a Palestinian state, but not because the Palestinians are a separate ethnicity without a homeland. Palestinian is more of a nationality than a race.

Anyways, since when did I say that people should be afforded different rights based on their race? Also, I am not demanding that the Palestinians settle where they are: they should be able to live in any place that is able to accomodate them, just as is the case with any human. In theory, the creation of a Palestinian state should be to accomodate the Palestinian refugees.

Dream wrote:but wronging them further is not the solution.


who has proposed this?
Terry Pratchett wrote:The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it.

User avatar
Iulus Cofield
WINNING
Posts: 2917
Joined: Wed Apr 07, 2010 9:31 am UTC

Re: Israel/Palestine discussion

Postby Iulus Cofield » Sun Jun 05, 2011 12:28 am UTC

Some thoughts on the recent discussion:

The Palestinians homelands are Palestine. The Moroccans homeland is Morocco. Pretending for a second that Moroccans are Arab and not mostly of Berber ancestry, being Arab would not make your "homeland" be all the areas where Arabs live. I am an American, but I am a Portlander first. I currently live in Seattle, less than 200 miles away from Portland. I am not in my homeland even though Seattle is culturally, climatically, and ethnically very similar.

The lack of historical outcry at asking Jewish refugees to resettle is heavily influenced by two factors. One, history is pretty dickish and racist. It used to be acceptable to burn cities to the ground, enslave all the inhabitants of value, and resettle them wherever was convenient or profitable. We should celebrate that we no longer accept such barbarism rather than point to other barbarisms as justification for anything, whether it relates to the Palestinians or not. Two, the Jewish people, as a collective whole, have not had a single homeland in two thousand years. Jewish refugees in any era and any place should be resettled to where their families are from, be it Germany, Spain, or India. (Yes, I am aware that a small number of Jewish people have been living in what is now Israel for centuries if not millenia and for them Israel is their homeland.) It is tragic that Europe, where most Jewish people lived after the Roman expulsion, was such a racist and hostile place for them that they had to flee to Israel and the US. Had Jewish refugees been fleeing WWII for the sake of avoiding the horrors of war and not been fleeing the horrors of the Holocaust, they ideally would have gone back to their homes in their respective countries. As it was,

Lastly, I just want everyone to remember that Jewish children are taught that they are superior to all other nationalities and races. They are taught that they are the chosen people of God and all other people are inferior. They are taught that foreigners may be enslaved. They are taught that genocide is acceptable so long as it is for the greater good of the chosen people. They are taught Israel is the land promised to them by God and no one else may have it. They are taught it is not adultery to sleep with a foreign woman. They are taught to revere ancient Jewish terrorists as heroes. They are taught to mutilate their male children. ...are you getting my point, Sourmilk? I feel kind of sick for typing all that, because what I typed are words of profound hatred and intolerance and words I do not believe.

User avatar
Izawwlgood
WINNING
Posts: 18686
Joined: Mon Nov 19, 2007 3:55 pm UTC
Location: There may be lovelier lovelies...

Re: Israel/Palestine discussion

Postby Izawwlgood » Sun Jun 05, 2011 1:03 am UTC

Iulus Cofield wrote:Lastly, I just want everyone to remember that Jewish children are taught that they are superior to all other nationalities and races.

What the fuck is this drivel? I have no idea what you're trying to say here or what analogy you're trying to make.
... with gigantic melancholies and gigantic mirth, to tread the jeweled thrones of the Earth under his sandalled feet.

User avatar
Iulus Cofield
WINNING
Posts: 2917
Joined: Wed Apr 07, 2010 9:31 am UTC

Re: Israel/Palestine discussion

Postby Iulus Cofield » Sun Jun 05, 2011 1:04 am UTC

I take it you didn't finish the paragraph.

User avatar
Izawwlgood
WINNING
Posts: 18686
Joined: Mon Nov 19, 2007 3:55 pm UTC
Location: There may be lovelier lovelies...

Re: Israel/Palestine discussion

Postby Izawwlgood » Sun Jun 05, 2011 1:06 am UTC

No, your point is just lost under many layers of extremely poor analogy. Are you trying to suggest that Jews are brainwashed just as Palestinian terrorists are? Or that Jews are simply fighting for their own causes, just as Palestinians are?
... with gigantic melancholies and gigantic mirth, to tread the jeweled thrones of the Earth under his sandalled feet.

User avatar
Iulus Cofield
WINNING
Posts: 2917
Joined: Wed Apr 07, 2010 9:31 am UTC

Re: Israel/Palestine discussion

Postby Iulus Cofield » Sun Jun 05, 2011 1:15 am UTC

No.

No.

My point was that pointing out that at least some Palestinian textbooks or teachers are anti-Semitic then making the conclusion that the Palestinian people are hateful to Jews and want all the Jews in Israel to be removed or killed (Judenrein) is incredibly faulty. I was pointing out that Jewish children, if they are taught anything about their history, are told much, much worse things. Somehow most Jewish children do not grow up to demand the genocide of Palestinians or advocating slavery or racist.

It was rhetorical, not analogic.

User avatar
Izawwlgood
WINNING
Posts: 18686
Joined: Mon Nov 19, 2007 3:55 pm UTC
Location: There may be lovelier lovelies...

Re: Israel/Palestine discussion

Postby Izawwlgood » Sun Jun 05, 2011 1:33 am UTC

Iulus Cofield wrote: I was pointing out that Jewish children, if they are taught anything about their history, are told much, much worse things.

And I was pointing out that this claim is sort of silly, especially considering the bolded part. Tell me what makes you think Jews are taught 'much, much worse things'?

This is actually sort of humorous to me, given how horrible I felt the brainwashing was in my Hebrew School upbringing; as 'bad' as it was, it pales in comparison to footage of children training to kill the Jews, footage which has been linked to these discussions on numerous occasions.

I guess what I'm trying to say is there's a rather wide margin between 'our people are special and great and wonderful' and 'they're all evil and you must burn them with fire and bullets'. I'm not suggesting that all Palestinians under the latter motive, by any stretch, I just think it's quite odd that you'd claim that Jewish brainwashing is equivalent. At the very least, [Citation Needed]
... with gigantic melancholies and gigantic mirth, to tread the jeweled thrones of the Earth under his sandalled feet.

User avatar
Iulus Cofield
WINNING
Posts: 2917
Joined: Wed Apr 07, 2010 9:31 am UTC

Re: Israel/Palestine discussion

Postby Iulus Cofield » Sun Jun 05, 2011 1:44 am UTC

...have you read the Book of Joshua? Or Genesis? I'm not saying Jewish teachers tell their students "We should kill foreigners if they get in the way of the Chosen People", but Jewish scriptures are profoundly racist.

I was just trying to get Sourmilk to understand there isn't a correlation between some children being told terrible things and the entire ethnicity that children belong to being Nazi equivalents.

User avatar
Izawwlgood
WINNING
Posts: 18686
Joined: Mon Nov 19, 2007 3:55 pm UTC
Location: There may be lovelier lovelies...

Re: Israel/Palestine discussion

Postby Izawwlgood » Sun Jun 05, 2011 1:53 am UTC

I don't think sourmilk has ever pointed to religious scripture as evidence that the Palestinians are evil, just as I find you pointing to the Torah as evidence for such sort of ridiculous. Newsflash: religious texts are pretty violent, horrible, and full of racism!
... with gigantic melancholies and gigantic mirth, to tread the jeweled thrones of the Earth under his sandalled feet.

User avatar
Iulus Cofield
WINNING
Posts: 2917
Joined: Wed Apr 07, 2010 9:31 am UTC

Re: Israel/Palestine discussion

Postby Iulus Cofield » Sun Jun 05, 2011 1:59 am UTC

You are intentionally missing the point. I was not equivocating Jewish children learning Judaism and Hamas indoctrinating children. I was using rhetoric. Persuasive words which may not make perfect metaphors for the purpose of trying to snap Sourmilk out of his blatant racism because he consistently does not understand what he says is racist. To that end I made several blatantly racist conclusions about Jewish children that were vaguely similar to Sourmilk's claims. Then I said I did not believe them to make it absolutely clear I was being rhetorical, specifically to Sourmilk. You are not helping the goal of persuading someone to be less racist by this quibbling.

This page is so full of "WINNING".

User avatar
Izawwlgood
WINNING
Posts: 18686
Joined: Mon Nov 19, 2007 3:55 pm UTC
Location: There may be lovelier lovelies...

Re: Israel/Palestine discussion

Postby Izawwlgood » Sun Jun 05, 2011 2:04 am UTC

Stupid analogy is stupid. I'm trying to point out to you that your analogy was stupid because they aren't equivalents. It's well known that there's a large portion of Israeli's that are racist towards Palestinians, and that there's a large portion of Palestinians that are racist towards Jews (I think there's a curious distinction to be made there, but that's aside the point) but claiming that 'Jewish indoctrination of children is much much worse' isn't facilitating understanding of racism, it's just poorly muddying the conversation with a crappy analogy that isn't really relevant. And considering sourmilk hasn't made the claim that religious texts are to blame for racism, your mention of the Torah is all the more irrelevant.
... with gigantic melancholies and gigantic mirth, to tread the jeweled thrones of the Earth under his sandalled feet.

User avatar
sourmìlk
If I can't complain, can I at least express my fear?
Posts: 6393
Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2008 10:53 pm UTC
Location: permanently in the wrong
Contact:

Re: Israel/Palestine discussion

Postby sourmìlk » Sun Jun 05, 2011 4:29 am UTC

Iulus, I have backed up my statements with evidence. For God's sake, the teacher's union for the UNRWA which controls primary education of most Palestinians is populated mostly by terrorists. Furthermore, the statements "Jews are educated thusly" and "Palestinians are educated thusly" are totally different. The Jews are a diverse ethnicity spread out over the entire world: to say that the Jews are educated in one way would hint at some education inherent to the Jews, and would thus be racist. The Palestinians' education is controlled by a single organization: to say that that organization is corrupt, and I've presented evidence for that statement.

Not only that, but if you provided evidence that most Jews are taught those things, I would concede that my Jewish education was atypical. You don't get to call me racist for making relevant, evidence supported conclusions that you don't like.
Terry Pratchett wrote:The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it.

User avatar
Vaskafdt
Posts: 137
Joined: Fri Dec 25, 2009 8:56 am UTC
Location: Jerusalem

Re: Israel/Palestine discussion

Postby Vaskafdt » Sun Jun 05, 2011 4:58 am UTC

sourmìlk wrote:I would concede that my Jewish education was atypical.


I vaguely remember being taught those things. (I learned in secular schools in Jerusalem) tho as most people in the secular school systems... I didn't really pay attention or care.

I don't know what Jewish education is like outside of Israel, but this things are taught (even if ignored) in it.

I don't know what it's like in the various Israeli religious schools.. I assume it's disgustingly racist tho.

even so, teaching stories about thousands of years ago, and the politics of old days.. is not the same as indoctrinating people to hate a specific group.
My Art Blog: (Slightly NSFW)
Image

User avatar
LaserGuy
Posts: 4585
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2009 5:33 pm UTC

Re: Israel/Palestine discussion

Postby LaserGuy » Sun Jun 05, 2011 4:59 am UTC

sourmìlk wrote:Iulus, I have backed up my statements with evidence. For God's sake, the teacher's union for the UNRWA which controls primary education of most Palestinians is populated mostly by terrorists. Furthermore, the statements "Jews are educated thusly" and "Palestinians are educated thusly" are totally different. The Jews are a diverse ethnicity spread out over the entire world: to say that the Jews are educated in one way would hint at some education inherent to the Jews, and would thus be racist. The Palestinians' education is controlled by a single organization: to say that that organization is corrupt, and I've presented evidence for that statement.

Not only that, but if you provided evidence that most Jews are taught those things, I would concede that my Jewish education was atypical. You don't get to call me racist for making relevant, evidence supported conclusions that you don't like.


Did you happen to actually read that Wikipedia article that you linked earlier? Or did you just read the parts where organizations affliated with Israeli government made ridiculous claims about the Palestinian textbooks that were found to be unsupported by the independent studies on the very same Wikipedia page? And that some of those studies found that Israeli textbooks have very similar problems to those in Palestinian textbooks?

Did you miss the part where I pointed out the very article you were using as evidence claimed that
In a February 2004 interview [Professor Nathan] Brown stated that reports of Palestinian textbooks inciting violence can all be traced back to "the work of a single organization, the 'Center for Monitoring the Impact of Peace'" which he claims "rely on misleading and tendentious reports to support their claim of incitement".[23]

and that maybe trusting a source accused of bias, with ties to the government of Israel, producing work that has not been peer reviewed, might be inferior to sources that don't have these problems?

User avatar
sourmìlk
If I can't complain, can I at least express my fear?
Posts: 6393
Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2008 10:53 pm UTC
Location: permanently in the wrong
Contact:

Re: Israel/Palestine discussion

Postby sourmìlk » Sun Jun 05, 2011 5:01 am UTC

Vaskafdt wrote:
sourmìlk wrote:I would concede that my Jewish education was atypical.


I vaguely remember being taught those things. (I learned in secular schools in Jerusalem) tho as most people in the secular school systems... I didn't really pay attention or care.

I don't know what Jewish education is like outside of Israel, but this things are taught (even if ignored) in it.

You remember being taught that genocide is okay if it furthers the cause of Jews, or that foreigners may be enslaved?

I don't know what it's like in the various Israeli religious schools.. I assume it's disgustingly racist tho.

Oh yeah, well those people are total nutcases.

Iulus: most of the independent studies support the conclusion that the Palestinian textbooks are anti-Israel, and those that don't differ in their conclusion about what the overall message is that the textbooks convey, but don't actually refute the specific claims I made.
Terry Pratchett wrote:The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it.

User avatar
LaserGuy
Posts: 4585
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2009 5:33 pm UTC

Re: Israel/Palestine discussion

Postby LaserGuy » Sun Jun 05, 2011 5:35 am UTC

sourmìlk wrote:Iulus: most of the independent studies support the conclusion that the Palestinian textbooks are anti-Israel, and those that don't differ in their conclusion about what the overall message is that the textbooks convey, but don't actually refute the specific claims I made.


Except, you know, where they expressly refute those claims and state that they're exaggerations or outright fabrications...

User avatar
sourmìlk
If I can't complain, can I at least express my fear?
Posts: 6393
Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2008 10:53 pm UTC
Location: permanently in the wrong
Contact:

Re: Israel/Palestine discussion

Postby sourmìlk » Sun Jun 05, 2011 5:37 am UTC

LaserGuy wrote:
sourmìlk wrote:Iulus: most of the independent studies support the conclusion that the Palestinian textbooks are anti-Israel, and those that don't differ in their conclusion about what the overall message is that the textbooks convey, but don't actually refute the specific claims I made.


Except, you know, where they expressly refute those claims and state that they're exaggerations or outright fabrications...


That's what they say of the conclusions. They might, for example, saying that they books aren't anti-Israel, but then the books go on to claim that Israel is entirely occupied Palestinian territory. Which is it?
Terry Pratchett wrote:The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it.

User avatar
LaserGuy
Posts: 4585
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2009 5:33 pm UTC

Re: Israel/Palestine discussion

Postby LaserGuy » Sun Jun 05, 2011 5:47 am UTC

sourmìlk wrote:
LaserGuy wrote:
sourmìlk wrote:Iulus: most of the independent studies support the conclusion that the Palestinian textbooks are anti-Israel, and those that don't differ in their conclusion about what the overall message is that the textbooks convey, but don't actually refute the specific claims I made.


Except, you know, where they expressly refute those claims and state that they're exaggerations or outright fabrications...


That's what they say of the conclusions. They might, for example, saying that they books aren't anti-Israel, but then the books go on to claim that Israel is entirely occupied Palestinian territory. Which is it?


There's a big difference between saying Israel is entirely occupied Palestinian territory (if that's indeed what they're saying) and saying this:

sourmilk wrote:First, I will point you to this wikipedia article, which gives examples of textbooks in the Palestinian territories containing anti-Semitic propaganda and statements. These textbooks say that Jews are inherently untrustworthy, they deny the holocaust, and they call the founding of Israel a disaster unprecedented in human history.


They also found examples of Israeli textbooks claiming that all of Palestine is part of Israel, and make no reference to the Palestinians ever living there at all.

User avatar
sourmìlk
If I can't complain, can I at least express my fear?
Posts: 6393
Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2008 10:53 pm UTC
Location: permanently in the wrong
Contact:

Re: Israel/Palestine discussion

Postby sourmìlk » Sun Jun 05, 2011 5:50 am UTC

LaserGuy wrote:
There's a big difference between saying Israel is entirely occupied Palestinian territory (if that's indeed what they're saying) and saying this:

sourmilk wrote:First, I will point you to this wikipedia article, which gives examples of textbooks in the Palestinian territories containing anti-Semitic propaganda and statements. These textbooks say that Jews are inherently untrustworthy, they deny the holocaust, and they call the founding of Israel a disaster unprecedented in human history.


The textbooks also say those things.

They also found examples of Israeli textbooks claiming that all of Palestine is part of Israel, and make no reference to the Palestinians ever living there at all.


First: are these textbooks used at ultra-orthodox or secular schools? The education between them differs a lot. Second: that's bad, but I'm skeptical that the Palestinians are portrayed as inherently untrustworthy, or that the textbooks deny the Palestinian Exodus. (Those specific ones may not cover it though. Trust me, you don't need to convince me that the religious Israeli right is causing a lot of problems).
Terry Pratchett wrote:The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it.

User avatar
Izawwlgood
WINNING
Posts: 18686
Joined: Mon Nov 19, 2007 3:55 pm UTC
Location: There may be lovelier lovelies...

Re: Israel/Palestine discussion

Postby Izawwlgood » Sun Jun 05, 2011 5:57 am UTC

LaserGuy wrote:Except, you know, where they expressly refute those claims and state that they're exaggerations or outright fabrications...

Do you mean the single guy whose entry claims that the textbooks aren't anti-semitic? I mean, sorry, but if you actually read that wikipedia article you'll find numerous accounts describing the propaganda both Israeli's and Palestinians are privy to via their textbooks; pointing to a single counter claim or handful of counterclaims in the midst of all that as your affirmation of denial is simply dishonest, it's cherry picking. I would hardly call that wiki entry indicative of clear cut lack of bias or propaganda in Palestinian kids school textbooks.
... with gigantic melancholies and gigantic mirth, to tread the jeweled thrones of the Earth under his sandalled feet.


Return to “News & Articles”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: The Great Hippo and 16 guests