Israel/Palestine discussion

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Re: Israel/Palestine discussion

Postby Izawwlgood » Wed Jun 08, 2011 2:34 am UTC

I thought shiksa just meant non-Jewish girl?
Is there a temptress connotation?
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Re: Israel/Palestine discussion

Postby sourmìlk » Wed Jun 08, 2011 2:37 am UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:I thought shiksa just meant non-Jewish girl?
Is there a temptress connotation?


No, Shiksa is an extreme Yiddish term for something non-kosher. Much harsher than "treif". It derives from the hebrew "sheketz" meaning "abomination" or "impure." The male term in Yiddish is "shegetz".
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Re: Israel/Palestine discussion

Postby Iulus Cofield » Wed Jun 08, 2011 2:51 am UTC

I am sure black Americans agreed that "nigger" wasn't pejorative when white Americans told them it wasn't. :roll:

Forgive me for misreading your post. I hadn't realized the final sentence referred to your previous post (Jewish extremists), but thought it referred to the subjects (i.e., non-Jewish people) of the preceding sentences.
But is the Jewish population dwindling? I hear that may be true in the US, although I would remind you the US has a dwindling population if you don't count incoming immigrants, but that in Israel the Jewish population is going up, just not as fast as the Arabic population.

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Re: Israel/Palestine discussion

Postby Izawwlgood » Wed Jun 08, 2011 2:56 am UTC

Oh. That is news to me. Carry on!
Goyim is not a derogatory word insofar as I've ever heard it used.

Also, for what it's worth, the world Jewish population is tiny. Like, really tiny. Like, there are just a little less Native Americans in America than there are Jews in the world. Assimilation is an issue to people who care about the perpetuation of the culture. There are many, many, more practitioners of Islam than there are of Judaism, for whatever that's worth in terms of comparing the Jewish population to anything else.
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Re: Israel/Palestine discussion

Postby sourmìlk » Wed Jun 08, 2011 2:59 am UTC

Iulus Cofield wrote:I am sure black Americans agreed that "nigger" wasn't pejorative when white Americans told them it wasn't. :roll:

"Nigger" was intended to be pejorative. "Goy" is not. If you, specifically, take offense at a neutral word, that doesn't mean that word is offensive.

Forgive me for misreading your post. I hadn't realized the final sentence referred to your previous post (Jewish extremists), but thought it referred to the subjects (i.e., non-Jewish people) of the preceding sentences.
But is the Jewish population dwindling? I hear that may be true in the US, although I would remind you the US has a dwindling population if you don't count incoming immigrants, but that in Israel the Jewish population is going up, just not as fast as the Arabic population.


The Jewish population has stayed approximately the same in the past 60 years. It doesn't necessarily mean the Jewish population is going ti disappear or become negligible, but it indicates the possibility.
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Re: Israel/Palestine discussion

Postby Iulus Cofield » Wed Jun 08, 2011 3:25 am UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:Also, for what it's worth, the world Jewish population is tiny. Like, really tiny. Like, there are just a little less Native Americans in America than there are Jews in the world. Assimilation is an issue to people who care about the perpetuation of the culture. There are many, many, more practitioners of Islam than there are of Judaism, for whatever that's worth in terms of comparing the Jewish population to anything else.


That's not even true. There are 2.5 million Native Americans "of one race" in the US and 1.6 Native Americans of mixed race according to the last census. Even if you were right in your numbers, Native American is generally considered a race, meaning it is composed of hundreds of different ethnic groups, cultures, and languages. Many of which are actually facing imminent culture and language death. "Jewish" is one ethnic identity, albeit one often considered to be composed of several (about a dozen I think?) ethnic groups, that numbers over 12 million. I am really skeptical of the claim that the Jewish people are anywhere near dying out as a culture, especially given that they have managed to survive so far, when so many European and Near-Eastern ethnic groups have disappeared entirely in the last 3000 years.

sourmìlk wrote:The Jewish population has stayed approximately the same in the past 60 years. It doesn't necessarily mean the Jewish population is going ti disappear or become negligible, but it indicates the possibility.


As I pointed out, the Jewish population has increased nearly 20% since 1945. Even if you were right, population stability is only an indication of population stability.

Now to quote the OED:
OxfordDictionaries.com wrote:goy

noun (plural goyim /ˈgoi-im/ or goys)
informal , derogatory

a Jewish name for a non-Jew.


Bolding added. I am far from the only one to consider goyim a pejorative term. I'm not gonna call you a yid, don't call me a goy.

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Re: Israel/Palestine discussion

Postby Izawwlgood » Wed Jun 08, 2011 3:55 am UTC

According to the wikipedia entry on Native Americans:
Native Americans and Alaska Natives make up 2 percent of the population, with more than 6 million people identifying themselves as such, although only 1.8 million are recognized as registered tribal members.

There are approximately 13 million Jews in the world, with a bit less than 6 million in Israel. Maybe not as close as I thought, but as far as minorities go, Jews represent a very small number of people relative to some other demographics.
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Re: Israel/Palestine discussion

Postby sourmìlk » Wed Jun 08, 2011 4:04 am UTC

Iulus Cofield wrote:As I pointed out, the Jewish population has increased nearly 20% since 1945. Even if you were right, population stability is only an indication of population stability.

It's risen about 16%. When the rest of the world's population has risen well over 300%, I'm willing to say that the population has barely moved. And if it's barely moved while the population of the rest of the world has increased dramatically, does that really indicate stability?

Now to quote the OED:
OxfordDictionaries.com wrote:goy

noun (plural goyim /ˈgoi-im/ or goys)
informal , derogatory

a Jewish name for a non-Jew.


Bolding added. I am far from the only one to consider goyim a pejorative term. I'm not gonna call you a yid, don't call me a goy.


Two things: some research indicates that it is sometimes (though not necessarily) used as a pejorative term. I was not aware that it was ever used as a derogatory term, so I apologize, but I certainly did not intend it in a derogatory way, and it isn't necessarily derogatory. Yid, however, is necessarily derogatory, so I don't think the comparison can be drawn. I clearly did not use the term "goy" in a derogative context.

Basically, "Goy" can be used as derogatory (just as the word "Jew" can when used to indicate that somebody was swindled out of their money), but it would be erroneous to assume that the use of the word goy is necessarily derogatory. The literal translation of "goy" is simply "nation."
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Re: Israel/Palestine discussion

Postby Iulus Cofield » Wed Jun 08, 2011 4:24 am UTC

I meant population stability in the sense of "the population is not increasing or decreasing by significant amounts". Additionally, populations with a birth rate around 1.0 per person or a little below are strongly correlated to economic prosperity, so there's that.

Thank you for your apology. Some advice as an older man to a younger man: try not to explain yourself too much after an apology. If you go on too long, it can come across as not really being sorry or, worse, come across as a veiled way to say you think were right all along and still do.

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Re: Israel/Palestine discussion

Postby aleflamedyud » Thu Jun 09, 2011 7:32 pm UTC

sourmìlk wrote:
Izawwlgood wrote:I thought shiksa just meant non-Jewish girl?
Is there a temptress connotation?


No, Shiksa is an extreme Yiddish term for something non-kosher. Much harsher than "treif". It derives from the hebrew "sheketz" meaning "abomination" or "impure." The male term in Yiddish is "shegetz".

No, shiksa is an extremely derogatory way of referring to a non-Jewish girl, meaning "lizardess".

"Goy" is also offensive, and I'd recommend not using it. Just say "Gentile".

As I pointed out, the Jewish population has increased nearly 20% since 1945.

Anyone want to remind this guy what came just before that? You know, the drop by 33%?

As to my opinion on a "one-state solution", why do Americans and Europeans always seem so eager to throw self-determination out of the Big Book of Rights? The whole point of Israel is to be the state of the Jewish people, where the Jewish people make our own choices and determine our own destiny. The Arabs have an identical right to self-determination. Why throw those away?
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Re: Israel/Palestine discussion

Postby sourmìlk » Wed Jun 15, 2011 1:54 pm UTC

aleflamedyud wrote:No, shiksa is an extremely derogatory way of referring to a non-Jewish girl, meaning "lizardess".

That's how it's used. I suppose it's like how "lame" used to mean "unable to walk".

"Goy" is also offensive, and I'd recommend not using it. Just say "Gentile".


Sort of? My understanding is that the word "Goy" was never used offensively (unless somebody was insulting non-Jews anyways), but people, for whatever reason, started taking offense to it because they thought it was offensive.

Anyways: news.

Syrian Government Orchestrated Nakba-Day Border Crossing in the Golan Heights
The Telegraph wrote:A leaked document (below) which bears the Syrian Republic emblem, is dated May 14, 2011 and describes an “urgent meeting” of Major General Asef Shawkat, the Deputy Chief of Staff for the Armed Forces, and the chiefs of security and military intelligence branches in the province in Al-Qunaitera, which is located at the Syrian-Israeli border. The memorandum outlines how the regime ordered the dispatching of 20 buses, each one with a passenger capacity of 47, to cross the border into Majdal-Shamms in the Golan Heights in order to precipitate a confrontation between Palestinian refugees and Israeli soldiers and UN peacekeeping forces, thereby distracting international attention from the Syrian revolution.
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Re: Israel/Palestine discussion

Postby Iulus Cofield » Thu Jun 16, 2011 3:11 am UTC

Hmm, on the one hand this isn't unbelievable coming from Syria, on the other hand this is a (mostly respectable newspaper sponsored) blog which simply states that we should believe the unnamed source of the document. Skimming through his other blog posts for the Telegraph, he doesn't seem strongly biased towards Israel, although maybe slightly, and he has published many anti-Syria posts. I'm leaning towards this being probably reliable. But even if it is, we shouldn't take this as Palestinians being puppets of neighboring Arab nations. Syria couldn't have organized the protests in the West Bank and on the Lebanese border. It seems a fairly clear case of mutual self-interest.

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Re: Israel/Palestine discussion

Postby sourmìlk » Sat Jun 18, 2011 9:54 pm UTC

Yeah, I don't think anybody is going to claim that Syria caused all of the Nakba day protests, but the fact that pretty much the only Naksa day protests were on the Syrian border also suggests that this is Syria trying to distract from their human rights violations by, um, violating more human rights.
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Re: Israel/Palestine discussion

Postby Vaskafdt » Sun Jun 19, 2011 4:29 am UTC

the word Goy as I see it, started as the word nation. instead of saying the Jewish nation, you could say the Jewish goy. over time, the word goy mutated to mean the other nation, and then you could say the word Goy, to mean a person from the goys, and eventually as we know it now it means not Jewish. I think that if it comes from the mouth of a Jew who hates non Jewish people, it would surely be an insult. but for many Jews (such as myself) it just means Gentile, non Jewish.. with no bad connotation involved.

the word Jew itself is considered derogatory itself in some contexts.. someone could say "stop Jewing out about this",

tho it's just a shortening of the word Jewish, so what's the big deal about using it?

It's all context, semantics.

If people would stop taking offence at every turn of phrase and declaring holy wars over them.. we would all be better off.
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Re: Israel/Palestine discussion

Postby yedidyak » Thu Jun 23, 2011 11:01 pm UTC

Saturday will be five years since the abduction of Gilad Shalit. Today the Red Cross demanded that Hamas start to give him his rights under the Geneva Convention, starting with proof of life as the last sign was nearly two years ago. Hamas predictably dismissed the ICRC's demands. In Gaza the Red Cross HQ was pelted with eggs in response.

As a way of pressuring Hamas, Netenyahu announced that Hamas prisoners in Israel will from now have only the rights mandated by international law - "We will stop, among other things, the absurd practice in which terrorists who murdered innocent people enroll in academic studies. There will be no more 'doctors of terror' – the celebration is over."

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Re: Israel/Palestine discussion

Postby Iulus Cofield » Fri Jun 24, 2011 6:18 am UTC

Smells of backroom politics. It's a pity though. This would have been a great opportunity for Hamas to move in a more conciliatory direction without appearing to be directly concessive to Israel.

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Re: Israel/Palestine discussion

Postby Velict » Fri Jun 24, 2011 7:16 am UTC

yedidyak wrote:As a way of pressuring Hamas, Netenyahu announced that Hamas prisoners in Israel will from now have only the rights mandated by international law - "We will stop, among other things, the absurd practice in which terrorists who murdered innocent people enroll in academic studies. There will be no more 'doctors of terror' – the celebration is over."

I wonder - how often does something like that actually happen? It sounds like one of those absurd, half-true statements that's really just pandering to the conservatives in Israel (like most everything else Netanyahu says, come to think of it).

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Re: Israel/Palestine discussion

Postby yedidyak » Fri Jun 24, 2011 8:33 am UTC

Velict wrote:
yedidyak wrote:As a way of pressuring Hamas, Netenyahu announced that Hamas prisoners in Israel will from now have only the rights mandated by international law - "We will stop, among other things, the absurd practice in which terrorists who murdered innocent people enroll in academic studies. There will be no more 'doctors of terror' – the celebration is over."

I wonder - how often does something like that actually happen? It sounds like one of those absurd, half-true statements that's really just pandering to the conservatives in Israel (like most everything else Netanyahu says, come to think of it).


Samir Kuntar, a Lebanese terrorist arrested after murdering five Israelis including a baby, married an Israeli Arab whilst in prison who then got a monthly stipend from Israel for being the wife of a prisoner. He also completed a degree in Social and Political Science through the Open University.

A quick google search shows what conditions are like: http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340 ... 51,00.html.

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Re: Israel/Palestine discussion

Postby aleflamedyud » Fri Jun 24, 2011 6:53 pm UTC

I feel like this Jerusalem Post piece became more relevant after that "protest" at the ICRC in Gaza.

Stop the Spoiling wrote:In private conversations in recent days with visiting European statesmen, Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu has said that the Palestinians are being treated by some EU member-states as a “spoiled child.” He first used this phrase on Sunday in a meeting with Bulgarian Foreign Minister Nikolai Mladenov and he repeated it during a meeting on Wednesday with Dominican Republic President Leonel Fernandez. Netanyahu’s intention was to point out that many European countries are habituating the Palestinians to believe that they can gain concessions without giving anything in return.

This was precisely the message coming out of Europe this week as Mideast Quartet – US, EU, Russia and UN – envoys prepared to meet in Brussels. As one senior Israeli official put it, the EU hopes to avert a Palestinian statehood bid at the UN in September by “giving something” significant to the Palestinians. And the party expected to appease the “spoiled child” is Israel.

The hope among Europeans, according to this senior official, is that Israel will be pressured into agreeing to adopt US President Barack Obama’s formula of restarting negotiations using the 1949 Armistice lines as a baseline.

But the Palestinians will not be required to make any concessions to Israel – not even an elaboration of what sorts of security arrangement they are prepared to consent to under any future accord with Israel, let alone putting an end to incitement against Israel, recognizing Israel as the nation-state of the Jewish people, or abandoning the demand for a “right of return.”

In other words, the Palestinians would be rewarded for their protracted intransigence – including their refusal to so much as come to the negotiating table with Israel – and for their stubborn insistence on seeking unilateral support for statehood at the UN (in the face of opposition from the Obama administration and from many EU states, including Germany and Italy, all of which are significant donors to the Palestinian Authority). And Israel, which has consistently sought to hold direct negotiations with the Palestinians without preconditions, would be pressured into recognition of a Palestinian state along the 1949 Armistice lines before negotiations even begin.

In the absence of the required Israeli willingness for flexibility, argue the Europeans, it will be difficult for some EU member states to resist a Palestinian demand for support at the UN for a unilateral declaration of statehood. If he were just given something, this argument continues, PA head Mahmoud Abbas would be willing to drop this unilateral gambit.

The European approach seems deeply wrong-headed.

Experience has shown that efforts to appease the Palestinians – including the US-led demand for the 10-month settlement freeze accepted by the Netanyahu government last year – are liable to encourage not fresh readiness to compromise but, rather, still more intransigence, in order to secure yet more Israeli concessions. Rather than “spoiling” them, the best thing the international community could give the Palestinians is intelligent advice against seeking unilateral measures in the UN and in favor of genuine reconciliation with Israel.

If some European countries are warning that they may be compelled to vote in favor of a unilateral Palestinian state at the UN, let their bluff be called. Do they truly believe that a non-binding vote on a state, achieved without a comprehensive peace agreement reached through negotiations and dialogue with Israel, will advance Palestinian independence, meet Israel’s legitimate security needs and bring more stability to the region? To Israel’s dismay, but also to the abiding detriment of their own aspirations for viable statehood, the Palestinians’ own leadership has yet to demonstrate that it is reconciled to Israel as the legitimate homeland of the Jewish people. It has not prepared its people for peace with Israel.

Incitement against Israel’s very legitimacy has gone on unabated. And too many Palestinians, indulged by the international community, still harbor hopes that millions of refugee descendants will one day be allowed to overwhelm Israel demographically.

“Moderate” Fatah continues to negotiate the creation of a unity government with Hamas, an anti-Semitic terrorist group bent on the destruction of Israel. And there is a genuine danger that the same Hamas will someday repeat its Gaza takeover in the West Bank.

Would it be wise under these circumstances, when instability and Islamist fervor is sweeping the region, to create a 22nd Arab state that would likely only add to this instability? Instead of spoiling the Palestinians at the expense of Israel, the Europeans should demand that they fulfill the most minimum requirement for dialogue – recognition of the Jewish state’s right to exist peacefully and thrive here.

It is the self-same requirement that those who spoke for the Palestinians 63 years ago refused to meet. Had it been acknowledged then, the Palestinians would have had their state decades ago. If they acknowledge it today, the path to their statehood would be wide open.
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Re: Israel/Palestine discussion

Postby Iulus Cofield » Fri Jun 24, 2011 7:58 pm UTC

I take it back. This reeks of backdoor politics. Not that that's a bad thing.

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Re: Israel/Palestine discussion

Postby Dream » Sat Jun 25, 2011 12:25 am UTC

yedidyak wrote:Samir Kuntar, a Lebanese terrorist arrested after murdering five Israelis including a baby, married an Israeli Arab whilst in prison who then got a monthly stipend from Israel for being the wife of a prisoner. He also completed a degree in Social and Political Science through the Open University.

I think velict meant the statement, in that Netanyahu can pronounce things like this without fear of anyone actually investigating whether he's really treating prisoners differently. It's free political capital with hardliners, much like Obama's Guantanamo promises were with liberals.

But just reading about the prisoner you mention, I absolutely applaud that. If a prisoner is bettering themselves that is unalloyed good. The alternative is more and more hatred for his captors, and further radicalisation under the influence of other prisoners. Education, especially internationally recognised qualification is a wonderful thing for a person to leave prison with. Netanyahu is deliberately goading Hamas, asking for a tit-for-tat escalation of prisoner mistreatment. He had the moral high ground when Shalit was being held incommunicado for years while Palestinian prisoners were treated humanely. He's now consciously balancing treatment of his own prisoners with his enemies' treatment of theirs, on a downward spiral. We created the Geneva Convention specifically to avoid this situation. The only outcomes for this course of action are worse for everyone concerned. No Palestinian is going to worry too much about their relatives not getting degrees, but Hamas might well decide to remove some "privileges" from Shalit. Who wins there, other than Netanyahu at the polls?
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Re: Israel/Palestine discussion

Postby sourmìlk » Sat Jun 25, 2011 7:38 am UTC

Netanyahu has the moral high ground as long as Hamas decides to hold Gilad Shalit without letting the red cross visit etc. That said, reducing prisoner rights in Israel seems like the wrong way to go about this: I don't think Hamas is too concerned about whether or not their friends in jail have a degree in economics, I'm pretty sure they want them out so they can continue to assist in acts of terror.

But holy shit, Israel is offering 450 prisoners in exchange for just one and Hamas has the balls to ask for 550 more.

Also, yes, categorizing the term "goy" as offensive is a prescriptivist approach to language.
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Re: Israel/Palestine discussion

Postby PeterCai » Sat Jun 25, 2011 8:01 pm UTC

sourmìlk wrote:Also, yes, categorizing the term "goy" as offensive is a prescriptivist approach to language.


In non-jargon: "BAWWW Basic Human Decency BAWWW"

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Re: Israel/Palestine discussion

Postby sourmìlk » Sun Jun 26, 2011 6:14 am UTC

What's actually more politically incorrect: using a term arbitrarily deemed as offensive, or other people assigning offensive meaning to an innocent term? "Goy" wasn't used offensively (unless somebody was speaking in such a way that they regarded any non-Jew with contempt), and people who didn't actually use the word prescribed offensive meaning to it. The actual politically incorrect thing would be to say that somebody's cultural terms are offensive when they're not.
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Re: Israel/Palestine discussion

Postby sourmìlk » Fri Jul 01, 2011 4:59 pm UTC

Terry Pratchett wrote:The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it.

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Re: Israel/Palestine discussion

Postby Iulus Cofield » Mon Jul 04, 2011 10:01 pm UTC

Was linked to this elsewhere, not sure if true. Does anyone know about the reliability of IMEMC or heard about this from another source? I'm not going to believe something so blatantly outrageous without some confirmation.

On the other hand, I ran across this while looking into the other one:

Razing of Palestinian homes picking up speed

Spoiler:
The Independent wrote:Israel has stepped up demolitions of Palestinian homes in the Jordan Valley, the eastern part of the occupied West Bank, leaving more than 700 homeless since the beginning of the year, a rights body said yesterday.

Israeli bulldozers have razed 103 homes so far this year, said B'Tselem, a respected Israeli human rights organisation, marking a sharp increase from the 83 homes it said were demolished last year. The policy has drawn sharp condemnation from NGOs, which accuse Israel of deliberately displacing thousands of Palestinian rural communities in a strategic border area that the Jewish state considers critical to its security.

Tens of thousands of Palestinians, many of them nomadic Bedouin, live in the parched area that runs alongside the border with Jordan. A much smaller number of Jewish settlers also live in the valley illegally, under international law.

Israel has defended its demolitions policy on the grounds that homes were erected without building permits or within military firing zones, a reasoning derided by rights bodies, who say it is almost impossible for Palestinians to obtain permits in Area C, the Israeli-controlled parts of the West Bank that include the Jordan Valley.

"Israeli policy is intended as... a de facto annexation of the Jordan Valley," said Sarit Michaeli, B'Tselem's spokeswoman. "The Jordan Valley is an occupied area... [that is] perceived by the government and the vast majority of Israelis as part of Israel."

The Civil Administration in the West Bank called B'Tselem's figures "completely wrong". A spokesman said the government was drawing up zoning plans for Palestinian communities in the Jordan Valley that would ameliorate the situation. Many of the Bedouin lack land-ownership deeds.

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Re: Israel/Palestine discussion

Postby sourmìlk » Tue Jul 05, 2011 5:02 am UTC

I never understood why people get so outraged when a home is demolished, as it happens in every country for the same reasons. I'll admit that the zoning laws may be too strict, but if somebody's house is demolished because it violates building codes, why is this particularly newsworthy? Anyways, the article indicated that lines were being redrawn, which seems good.

The IMEMC seems to have a noticeable anti-Israel bias, but not to the degree that they'd just make shit up. However, I'm not exactly certain of it's statement that it's likely to pass. I'd imagine that whoever drafted it, if indeed the article is telling the truth, is at least as right-winged as Likud and that it wouldn't pass, but that's speculation based on an admittedly meager knowledge of Israeli politics.

I can't actually find any article on that subject by any legitimate news sites. There are some articles on opinion sites, but i'm inclined to distrust those.

Also, the IMEMC article mentions that some houses were destroyed punitively since 1967, and while that is technically true, it should probably be added that since then (I think at around the second intifada) that practice has stopped.
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Re: Israel/Palestine discussion

Postby Telchar » Tue Jul 05, 2011 5:12 am UTC

sourmìlk wrote:I never understood why people get so outraged when a home is demolished, as it happens in every country for the same reasons. I'll admit that the zoning laws may be too strict, but if somebody's house is demolished because it violates building codes, why is this particularly newsworthy? Anyways, the article indicated that lines were being redrawn, which seems good.


Mostly because if New York decides to demolish an Italians home in the Bronx it's probably not because of an ongoing war between Italy and New York and questioning the motives on that basis would make one out to be a conspiracy theorist.

Corruption is certainly an issue, but of course it's going to be news.
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Re: Israel/Palestine discussion

Postby sourmìlk » Tue Jul 05, 2011 5:14 am UTC

Telchar wrote:
sourmìlk wrote:I never understood why people get so outraged when a home is demolished, as it happens in every country for the same reasons. I'll admit that the zoning laws may be too strict, but if somebody's house is demolished because it violates building codes, why is this particularly newsworthy? Anyways, the article indicated that lines were being redrawn, which seems good.


Mostly because if New York decides to demolish an Italians home in the Bronx it's probably not because of an ongoing war between Italy and New York and questioning the motives on that basis would make one out to be a conspiracy theorist.

These demolitions aren't a part of an ongoing war either. That is, unless you're tracing it back to Israel's occupation of the West Bank, which is part of a war, but then all actions of Israel's there are newsworthy. The demolitions are part of Israel enforcing building codes and zoning restrictions.
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Re: Israel/Palestine discussion

Postby aleflamedyud » Wed Jul 06, 2011 4:18 am UTC

IMEMC is bending the truth. The proposed bill applies to Israeli civilian territory, not the occupied West Bank.
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Re: Israel/Palestine discussion

Postby sourmìlk » Wed Jul 06, 2011 4:21 am UTC

aleflamedyud wrote:IMEMC is bending the truth. The proposed bill applies to Israeli civilian territory, not the occupied West Bank.

So it would just mean that any person in Israel would have to pay to have their home demolished? That changes the bill from "near institutionalized racism" to "kind of dickish."
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Re: Israel/Palestine discussion

Postby Iulus Cofield » Wed Jul 06, 2011 4:45 pm UTC

Eh, at some level it is sensible. If I build a home illegally and it needs to be demolished, other taxpayers shouldn't be picking up the bill. On the other hand, I wouldn't expect illegal building in the US to result in demolition unless the building was dangerously unsafe and beyond repair. Usually here it is just a fine and being forced to go through the appropriate channels that were skipped.

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Re: Israel/Palestine discussion

Postby sourmìlk » Wed Jul 06, 2011 5:50 pm UTC

Yeah, but real estate law is understandably more strict in a country the size of New Jersey. They don't have a lot of room to fuck around.
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Re: Israel/Palestine discussion

Postby sourmìlk » Fri Jul 08, 2011 10:53 pm UTC

Soem News on the Gaza Flytilla

TL;DR: some activists attempting to protest Israel's blockade by flying into Israel and then marching into Gaza were, unsurprisingly, detained and sent back to their countries.
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Re: Israel/Palestine discussion

Postby aleflamedyud » Sun Jul 10, 2011 2:18 am UTC

sourmìlk wrote:Yeah, but real estate law is understandably more strict in a country the size of New Jersey. They don't have a lot of room to fuck around.

Well true, but I don't see why the Israeli government shouldn't have to justify each demolition by reference to exactly what makes the particular building categorically illegal. If it's just a matter of making people pay taxes/fees for building permits and keep things up to code rather than zoning or conservation, then why not just force retroactive bureaucratic correctness on the illegal builder?

Though yes, I admit this would cause a bit of a building boom in the Galilee and some other areas, if the penalties weren't harsh enough.
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Re: Israel/Palestine discussion

Postby Greyarcher » Tue Jul 12, 2011 2:51 pm UTC

Seen a bit of news recently on Israel's boycott law. Can't find the text of the law, but it sounds like a rather intriguing affair. Making it so people can be sued for civil damages if they call for certain types of boycotts or somesuch? Lots of remarks that it's basically targeting boycotts of West Bank settlements.
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Re: Israel/Palestine discussion

Postby sourmìlk » Tue Jul 12, 2011 4:21 pm UTC

Greyarcher wrote:Seen a bit of news recently on Israel's boycott law. Can't find the text of the law, but it sounds like a rather intriguing affair. Making it so people can be sued for civil damages if they call for certain types of boycotts or somesuch? Lots of remarks that it's basically targeting boycotts of West Bank settlements.


As stupid as a lot of those boycotts are (refusing to buy wine made in the West Bank hurts the Palestinians, it doesn't help them), I wouldn't support a law that makes boycotts an offense. I hope the court turns it over.
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Re: Israel/Palestine discussion

Postby Maurog » Wed Jul 13, 2011 7:14 am UTC

Boycott laws (or anti-boycott laws, really) have already passed. Hopefully they will be appealed in the high court and overturned, people should always have the right to vote with their money.
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Re: Israel/Palestine discussion

Postby sourmìlk » Wed Jul 13, 2011 7:31 am UTC

Well, to the extent that it isn't bribery.

Anyways, this line from the BBC struck me:

However the PA has yet to pass promised legislation making it illegal for Palestinian labourers to work in settlements.

This really is bafflingly idiotic of the PA. If Israel settlements and businesses in the West Bank provide Palestinians jobs (and they do), then the PA would be making a political statement at the expense of its citizens. But what else is new?
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Re: Israel/Palestine discussion

Postby Iulus Cofield » Wed Jul 13, 2011 8:24 am UTC

Well, I don't know how it has been in the last decade, but historically Israeli hiring of Palestinians was best described as very exploitive.


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