Israel/Palestine discussion

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Re: Israel/Palestine discussion

Postby yurell » Sat Jan 21, 2012 11:28 pm UTC

Let's kill the leader of the only country that supports us without question! He must've rubbed both his IQ points together to come up with that one.
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Re: Israel/Palestine discussion

Postby sourmìlk » Sun Jan 22, 2012 12:26 am UTC

/facepalm

I have no idea how a person writes something that idiotic. I'd criticize that idea, but I really don't think it's necessary.
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Re: Israel/Palestine discussion

Postby Dream » Sun Jan 22, 2012 2:08 pm UTC


You must have used the wrong link. That link goes to an article that says a nameless "moderator" referred to (presumed) jews as descendants of apes and pigs. It also says that the mufti read a religious verse about killing Jews. Genocide isn't mentioned. Neither is the mufti calling the Jews anything at all.
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Re: Israel/Palestine discussion

Postby Izawwlgood » Sun Jan 22, 2012 2:23 pm UTC

During an event celebrating the 47th anniversary of Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas' Fatah movement last week, Mufti Mohammed Hussein cited a hadith (saying attributed to the Prophet Muhammad) claiming that the Earth's end of days will not happen until Muslims kill Jews in a religious battle: "The Hour (of Resurrection) will not come until you fight the Jews. The Jew will hide behind stones or trees. Then the stones or trees will call: 'Oh Muslim, servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him.'"


The moderator who introduced the mufti at the Fatah event said, "Our war with the descendants of the apes and pigs (i.e., Jews) is a war of religion and faith."

Seems to be two separate statements. Saying that genocide isn't mentioned is somewhat disingenuous("Muslims kill Jews" probably isn't calling for a singular Muslim to kill a singular Jew), and saying that the moderator might not be referring to the Jews is also somewhat disingenuous.
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Re: Israel/Palestine discussion

Postby sourmìlk » Sun Jan 22, 2012 9:44 pm UTC

I can see why calling us descendants of pigs might be insulting, but descendants of apes? That's just basic science. Anyways, it's difficult to imagine a timely peaceful resolution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict when one side is still calling for genocide.
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Re: Israel/Palestine discussion

Postby pinkie pi » Fri Jan 27, 2012 1:51 am UTC

Israel has killed thousands of innocent Palestinians (including over a thousand children). They've carried out airstrikes on Gaza City that intentionally target civilians, and they're planning on using white phosphorus against the inhabitants of Gaza. They also arrest people without charge or trial (including several Palestinian MPs) and torture Palestinian prisoners. Despite all this, the US continues to unconditionally support the Israeli regime and its brutal massacres. Who is worse: the Palestinians, who just want an end to the fighting, or Israel and the US, who want genocide against the Palestinian people?

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Re: Israel/Palestine discussion

Postby yurell » Fri Jan 27, 2012 1:56 am UTC

Pinki Pi, how much of this thread have you read? I understand it's long, but I do advise reading the first and the last five or ten pages just to have an idea of how the conversation has evolved. Also, you may want to try and find a different source to The Palestine Chronicle ... even the name reeks of bias, especially when it comes to alleged 'plans' by Israel and analysis of their behaviour.
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Re: Israel/Palestine discussion

Postby sourmìlk » Fri Jan 27, 2012 2:12 am UTC

Pinkie pi, I could right an 80 page rebuttal to that argument. As it turns out, I already have. As Yurell recommended, read a bit of the thread, and if you still have questions, you can come back and we'll be happy to discuss this with you.
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Re: Israel/Palestine discussion

Postby pinkie pi » Fri Jan 27, 2012 3:32 am UTC

That doesn't change the fact that Israel has killed far more innocents than Palestine.

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Re: Israel/Palestine discussion

Postby sourmìlk » Fri Jan 27, 2012 3:40 am UTC

Come on man, did you even read a single sentence of this thread?
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Re: Israel/Palestine discussion

Postby pinkie pi » Fri Jan 27, 2012 3:43 am UTC

sourmìlk wrote:Come on man, did you even read a single sentence of this thread?


The page I just linked to gives statistics backing up everything in my post. They're also available on plenty of other websites. How isn't it relevant to point out Israel's blatantly racist policies?

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Re: Israel/Palestine discussion

Postby yurell » Fri Jan 27, 2012 3:47 am UTC

Pinky Pi wrote:That doesn't change the fact that Israel has killed far more innocents than Palestine.


And Germany's killed more innocents than both of them combined. Do you have an actual structured argument to make, or are you just throwing out general examples where Israel has behaved badly? What is your contention? Who are you trying to convince what? Sourmilk is quite pro-Israel, I'm quite anti-Israel, are you trying to convince him that Israel is bad? Then you're going to need reasoning to support your arguments. Or are you just trying to keep us up to date with current affairs? In which case, thank you for the information, but your presentation didn't look like that.

In short, what is the point of your posts?
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Re: Israel/Palestine discussion

Postby yoni45 » Fri Jan 27, 2012 3:49 am UTC

yurell wrote:And Germany's killed more innocents than both of them combined. Do you have an actual structured argument to make, or are you just throwing out general examples where Israel has behaved badly? What is your contention? Who are you trying to convince what? Sourmilk is quite pro-Israel, I'm quite anti-Israel, are you trying to convince him that Israel is bad? Then you're going to need reasoning to support your arguments. Or are you just trying to keep us up to date with current affairs? In which case, thank you for the information, but your presentation didn't look like that.

In short, what is the point of your posts?


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Re: Israel/Palestine discussion

Postby yurell » Fri Jan 27, 2012 3:51 am UTC

What do you mean?
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Re: Israel/Palestine discussion

Postby pinkie pi » Fri Jan 27, 2012 3:53 am UTC

The point is that Israel's past and continuing actions show a clear pattern of racial and religious bigotry against the Palestinian people. Because of the US's unconditional support (and generous military aid), Israel has been able to carry out massive attacks against civilians. As long as the US continues to support the Israeli regime, it's responsible for the thousands of innocents Israel has killed.

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Re: Israel/Palestine discussion

Postby yoni45 » Fri Jan 27, 2012 3:56 am UTC

yurell wrote:What do you mean?


I mean it's highly unlikely that any fruitful discussion is going to come out of this particular individual that clearly believes that "hey look, numbers with an obvious agenda" makes for anything close to a compelling argument.

Chances are, it'll be ever-so-marginally more useful than arguing with a deliberate troll.

(to be fair, I've been guilty of this myself -- but you know, the point is no less pertinent... ^_^)
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Re: Israel/Palestine discussion

Postby Izawwlgood » Fri Jan 27, 2012 3:57 am UTC

pinkie pi wrote:The point is that Israel's past and continuing actions show a clear pattern of racial and religious bigotry against the Palestinian people. Because of the US's unconditional support (and generous military aid), Israel has been able to carry out massive attacks against civilians. As long as the US continues to support the Israeli regime, it's responsible for the thousands of innocents Israel has killed.


I'm really curious; do you think the Palestinians, their elected officials, or other surrounding nations, might have 'clear patterns of racial and religious bigotry against the Israeli people'?

I have to admit, I'm terribly hesitant to afford you any attention or time, given your refusal to read the thread, or your predilection for linking pretty ridiculously biased information, but I'll bite. I strongly suggest you read the thread; it's obvious you don't know much about this topic.
Last edited by Izawwlgood on Fri Jan 27, 2012 4:06 am UTC, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Israel/Palestine discussion

Postby sourmìlk » Fri Jan 27, 2012 4:05 am UTC

As it turns out, Pinkie, I've already responded to all of those arguments. Would you care to respond to my rebuttals?
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Re: Israel/Palestine discussion

Postby yurell » Fri Jan 27, 2012 4:07 am UTC

yoni45 wrote:I mean it's highly unlikely that any fruitful discussion is going to come out of this particular individual that clearly believes that "hey look, numbers with an obvious agenda" makes for anything close to a compelling


I was once completely awful at debating, and it's only with the patience and guidance of others that I've grown to being half-way decent. It could be that Pinkie Pi has very little experience at this, and so encouragement can go a long way. Doesn't hurt to be friendly ^_^
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Re: Israel/Palestine discussion

Postby sourmìlk » Fri Jan 27, 2012 4:09 am UTC

Given that Pinkie has something like 8 posts, he is probably new here. Still Yurell, you're playing a dangerous game. He might turn out to be another sourmilk.
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Re: Israel/Palestine discussion

Postby Vanzetti » Fri Jan 27, 2012 10:17 am UTC

pinkie pi wrote:The point is that Israel's past and continuing actions show a clear pattern of racial and religious bigotry against the Palestinian people. Because of the US's unconditional support (and generous military aid), Israel has been able to carry out massive attacks against civilians. As long as the US continues to support the Israeli regime, it's responsible for the thousands of innocents Israel has killed.


US unconditional support...
Massive attacks against civilians...

I don't get it. Why Palestinians still exist? Are Israelis really that incompetent that despite the backing of a superpower and their own enormous military advantage they can't genocide a concentrated urban population? They even control the water supply. How hard would it be to add some cyanide? :lol:

/sarcasm off

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Re: Israel/Palestine discussion

Postby sourmìlk » Fri Jan 27, 2012 11:06 am UTC

Yeah, I've always said that if the Israelis actually wanted to commit genocide against the Gazans, they'd send over precisely two fully-loaded F-16s and be done in two minutes.
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Re: Israel/Palestine discussion

Postby Iulus Cofield » Fri Jan 27, 2012 11:34 am UTC

Kind of a wierd catchphrase, no?

Pinkamena, usually here we discuss current events in Israel and Palestine and use those a jumping off point from which to villify the opposition. Serious Business is a more appropriate venue for historical discussion, which is not to say past events are neber relevant here. Was there something in the news recemtly that inspired you to post?

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Re: Israel/Palestine discussion

Postby Vanzetti » Fri Jan 27, 2012 12:00 pm UTC

sourmìlk wrote:Yeah, I've always said that if the Israelis actually wanted to commit genocide against the Gazans, they'd send over precisely two fully-loaded F-16s and be done in two minutes.


Wait, how are you going to commit genocide with 2 F-16s? Even if you use WMD, it's just not enough...

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Re: Israel/Palestine discussion

Postby Chen » Fri Jan 27, 2012 2:22 pm UTC

Vanzetti wrote:
sourmìlk wrote:Yeah, I've always said that if the Israelis actually wanted to commit genocide against the Gazans, they'd send over precisely two fully-loaded F-16s and be done in two minutes.


Wait, how are you going to commit genocide with 2 F-16s? Even if you use WMD, it's just not enough...


A US B61 nuclear missile (which can be loaded on an F15) can have yield of up 340 kilotons. For reference the bomb dropped on Hiroshima had a 21 kilotons. Now while Israel may not have the exact equivalent to a B61 I imagine you could fit quite a few of their tactical nuclear weapons on a couple of F16s.

On a general note its pretty scary to see how powerful a supposedly "tactical" nuclear weapon can be.

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Re: Israel/Palestine discussion

Postby Vanzetti » Fri Jan 27, 2012 3:03 pm UTC

Chen wrote:A US B61 nuclear missile (which can be loaded on an F15) can have yield of up 340 kilotons. For reference the bomb dropped on Hiroshima had a 21 kilotons. Now while Israel may not have the exact equivalent to a B61 I imagine you could fit quite a few of their tactical nuclear weapons on a couple of F16s.

On a general note its pretty scary to see how powerful a supposedly "tactical" nuclear weapon can be.


You are not seriously proposing dropping a 340 kilotons nuke on Gaza or Ramallah as a way of commiting genocide, right? That would cover half Israel with radioactive shit...

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Re: Israel/Palestine discussion

Postby Chen » Fri Jan 27, 2012 3:22 pm UTC

Vanzetti wrote:You are not seriously proposing dropping a 340 kilotons nuke on Gaza or Ramallah as a way of commiting genocide, right? That would cover half Israel with radioactive shit...


The point was there are certainly sufficiently LARGE weapons capable of being put on an F16 to commit genocide with. I'm sure they could tone it down so that the fallout would be more minimal if that was the primary concern.

I don't think anyone is actually proposing that though. Just saying that Israel has the capability of wiping the Palestinians out with very little effort (e.g., the two F16s that were mentioned).

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Re: Israel/Palestine discussion

Postby LaserGuy » Fri Jan 27, 2012 3:51 pm UTC

Vanzetti wrote:I don't get it. Why Palestinians still exist? Are Israelis really that incompetent that despite the backing of a superpower and their own enormous military advantage they can't genocide a concentrated urban population? They even control the water supply. How hard would it be to add some cyanide? :lol:


In all seriousness, not all genocides historically have been the result of Nazi-style mass-executions. It was not an explicit policy of the Europeans to round up and murder all of the Native Americans, for example, but rather the genocide was a side-effect of their aggressive pursuit of the land and resources on the American continent (combined with the introduction of a number of extremely deadly diseases).

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Re: Israel/Palestine discussion

Postby Vanzetti » Fri Jan 27, 2012 5:38 pm UTC

LaserGuy wrote:In all seriousness, not all genocides historically have been the result of Nazi-style mass-executions. It was not an explicit policy of the Europeans to round up and murder all of the Native Americans, for example, but rather the genocide was a side-effect of their aggressive pursuit of the land and resources on the American continent (combined with the introduction of a number of extremely deadly diseases).


In all seriousness, it is a very lousy attempt at genocide if during it the population of the group that's being targeted just keeps on rising. One may even conclude that *GASP* no attempt at genocide is actually taking place.

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Re: Israel/Palestine discussion

Postby mmmcannibalism » Fri Jan 27, 2012 6:10 pm UTC

Chen wrote:
Vanzetti wrote:
sourmìlk wrote:Yeah, I've always said that if the Israelis actually wanted to commit genocide against the Gazans, they'd send over precisely two fully-loaded F-16s and be done in two minutes.


Wait, how are you going to commit genocide with 2 F-16s? Even if you use WMD, it's just not enough...


A US B61 nuclear missile (which can be loaded on an F15) can have yield of up 340 kilotons. For reference the bomb dropped on Hiroshima had a 21 kilotons. Now while Israel may not have the exact equivalent to a B61 I imagine you could fit quite a few of their tactical nuclear weapons on a couple of F16s.

On a general note its pretty scary to see how powerful a supposedly "tactical" nuclear weapon can be.


Personal opinion; the notion of tactical nuclear weapon is at least on its face entirely absurd. Wiping out a battlefied isn't tactical, its strategical.
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Re: Israel/Palestine discussion

Postby sourmìlk » Fri Jan 27, 2012 6:25 pm UTC

I'm going to agree: "tactical" is sort of euphemistic for "still fucking big, but not quite as fucking big as other nukes."
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Re: Israel/Palestine discussion

Postby Soralin » Sat Jan 28, 2012 1:42 am UTC

On that subject, there's http://meyerweb.com/eric/tools/gmap/hydesim.html You can see what the areas of effect of a nuclear weapon of a given yield would be, on a location on a map.

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Re: Israel/Palestine discussion

Postby yurell » Sat Jan 28, 2012 2:33 am UTC

Don't be too reliant on that, though, since it doesn't show important effect such as 3rd degree burn radius. It is a nice place to start, though, if you're just trying to level buildings.
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Re: Israel/Palestine discussion

Postby yoni45 » Sat Jan 28, 2012 3:02 am UTC

yurell wrote:Don't be too reliant on that, though, since it doesn't show important effect such as 3rd degree burn radius. It is a nice place to start, though, if you're just trying to level buildings.


More particularly, it refers to ground-level explosions -- I'm pretty sure that wastes much of the power of the device into the ground, and that nuclear bombs are most efficient with a detonation at a certain height above ground...?
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Re: Israel/Palestine discussion

Postby yurell » Sat Jan 28, 2012 3:08 am UTC

Oh, I didn't notice that. Yeah, a ground burst isn't very good for total damage radius, since most of the energy is reflected upwards, but it is good if you want the place to be radioactive afterwards, or you're setting it off on top of the thing you want gone. Optimum burst height is above the ground, with varying elevations depending on the yield and desired result.
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Re: Israel/Palestine discussion

Postby sourmìlk » Sat Jan 28, 2012 6:44 am UTC

In some actual news (sort of), Israel and Palestine continue to disagree after talks in Jordan

nytimes wrote:Israeli negotiators told their Palestinian counterparts this week that their guiding principle for drawing the borders of a future two-state solution would be for existing settlement blocks to become part of Israel, an approach that the Palestinians rejected as unacceptable.

The discussion, which occurred in Jordan on Wednesday night, was the first time the government of Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu formally told the Palestinian Authority how it would seek to handle the territorial part of their negotiations, although Mr. Netanyahu had made the point publicly to Congress in Washington in May.


The balls on the Palestinian negotiators, to act as though they have a right to displace 450,000 people because they deserve one specific plot of land rather than the adjacent one with as much (if not more) value. (The Old City doesn't factor into this: this is specifically about settlements.)

My favorite part was this:

A Palestinian official said ... "If you put it in perspective, it is as if the West Bank were not occupied, just disputed."

Why, now that I think of it, yes, it is exactly like that.
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Re: Israel/Palestine discussion

Postby LaserGuy » Sun Jan 29, 2012 2:30 am UTC

sourmìlk wrote:The balls on the Palestinian negotiators, to act as though they have a right to displace 450,000 people because they deserve one specific plot of land rather than the adjacent one with as much (if not more) value. (The Old City doesn't factor into this: this is specifically about settlements.)


That's exactly what Israel did in the 40s. The nerve of those Palestinians, trying to get back a tiny fraction of the land that was stolen from them. :roll:

sourmilk wrote:Why, now that I think of it, yes, it is exactly like that.


We've discussed this before. Everyone, including Israel itself, considers the West Bank occupied territory. I can dig up the cites from the Israeli High Court (again) if you really want.

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Re: Israel/Palestine discussion

Postby sourmìlk » Sun Jan 29, 2012 3:48 am UTC

LaserGuy wrote:That's exactly what Israel did in the 40s. The nerve of those Palestinians, trying to get back a tiny fraction of the land that was stolen from them. :roll:

The Palestinians in the 40s either a) left voluntarily (under the unfortunate delusion that they'd be able to return) or b) violently attacked the Israeli soldiers and were made to leave, and in neither case does that give them a right to any land West of the Jordan. The Palestinians as a people could never have land stolen from them because, as a people, they never had land to begin with.

But let's say that Israel maliciously and, without justification, pushed the Palestinians off of their land in '48 and '49. This would obviously be horrible, but it still would not justify a Palestinian state. It might justify a return for Palestinian refugees and their descendants (although, even then, no refugee population has ever been granted a "right" of return), but as the Palestinians as a people never held any sovereignty over any land and as they were never legally promised any land and as they rejected any non-legally-binding promises made to them, by no logic do they have a right to their own country.

We've discussed this before. Everyone, including Israel itself, considers the West Bank occupied territory. I can dig up the cites from the Israeli High Court (again) if you really want.

I've been doing some research into that and even Israel's opinion is sort of complicated. The MFA considers them disputed territories. From what I recall, the IHC ruled that the territories were being occupied by Israel but were not occupied territories per se. Now, it's a legitimate possibility that these two branches of government contradict each other, but it's also possible that there's some semantic crap confusing the official Israeli stance on the issue. I'm inclined to side with the MFA on this one (assuming the sides contradict) given that I find their arguments more compelling, and that there isn't (or may not be) a consensus even among the Israeli government as to what these territories constitute.

But, if for the moment, we assume that the territories are occupied territories, it still does not follow that the Palestinians have any right to the land. See the above reasons.

Part of the problem with this discussion is that I keep going no matter what, but other people get tired and take a break, so I think the matter is resolved, but it isn't. To my recollection nobody contested me the last time I stated that the Palestinians had no right to anything they were requesting, nobody contested me, but that probably wasn't out of agreement.
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