Students Kicked Off Campus for Wearing American Flag Tees

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The Reaper
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Students Kicked Off Campus for Wearing American Flag Tees

Postby The Reaper » Thu May 06, 2010 7:33 pm UTC

http://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local-be ... 45969.html
On any other day at Live Oak High School in Morgan Hill, Daniel Galli and his four friends would not even be noticed for wearing T-shirts with the American flag. But Cinco de Mayo is not any typical day especially on a campus with a large Mexican American student population.
Galli says he and his friends were sitting at a table during brunch break when the vice principal asked two of the boys to remove American flag bandannas that they wearing on their heads and for the others to turn their American flag T-shirts inside out. When they refused, the boys were ordered to go to the principal's office.
"They said we could wear it on any other day," Daniel Galli said, "but today is sensitive to Mexican-Americans because it's supposed to be their holiday so we were not allowed to wear it today."
The boys said the administrators called their T-shirts "incendiary" that would lead to fights on campus.
"They said if we tried to go back to class with our shirts not taken off, they said it was defiance and we would get suspended," Dominic Maciel, Galli's friend, said.
The boys really had no choice, and went home to avoid suspension. They say they're angry they were not allowed to express their American pride. Their parents are just as upset, calling what happened to their children, "total nonsense."
"I think it's absolutely ridiculous," Julie Fagerstrom, Maciel's mom, said. "All they were doing was displaying their patriotic nature. They're expressing their individuality."
But to many Mexican-American students at Live Oak, this was a big deal. They say they were offended by the five boys and others for wearing American colors on a Mexican holiday.
"I think they should apologize cause it is a Mexican Heritage Day," Annicia Nunez, a Live Oak High student, said. "We don't deserve to be get disrespected like that. We wouldn't do that on Fourth of July."
As for an apology, the boys and their families say, 'fat chance.'
"I'm not going to apologize. I did nothing wrong," Galli said. "I went along with my normal day. I might have worn an American flag, but I'm an American and I'm proud to be an American."
The five boys and their families met with a Morgan Hill Unified School District official Wednesday night. The district and the school dp not see eye-to-eye on the incident and released the following statement:
The district does not concur with the Live Oak High School administration's interpretation of either board or district policy related to these actions.

The boys will not be suspended and were allowed to return to school Thursday. We spotted one of them when he got to campus -- and, yes, he was sporting an American flag T-shirt.
Yea, that's a pretty fucked thing to do, sending American students wearing Old Navy t-shirts with American flags on them home because they "may offend" other students. I dearly hope the principal gets removed. ACLU should be all over this shit.

Also: The students at that school should remember what country they live in. Yes, they can celebrate Independence Day just like the rest of us did, but that doesn't mean EVERYONE there has to. Plenty of American's don't celebrate/respect the July 4th, I don't see why May 5th should be any different.

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Re: Students Kicked Off Campus for Wearing American Flag Tee

Postby BlackSails » Thu May 06, 2010 7:34 pm UTC

Sending american students in american high schools home for wearing shirts with the american flag?


There is something very wrong here.

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Re: Students Kicked Off Campus for Wearing American Flag Tee

Postby Ixtellor » Thu May 06, 2010 7:35 pm UTC

Agree.
I love Cinco de Mayo, but American students have the right to wear non-offensive materials to school. This is going to be insane fodder for Hannity and crew for weeks to come.

Stupid fucking decision of that school.
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Re: Students Kicked Off Campus for Wearing American Flag Tee

Postby mmmcannibalism » Thu May 06, 2010 8:12 pm UTC

I think they should apologize cause it is a Mexican Heritage Day," Annicia Nunez, a Live Oak High student, said. "We don't deserve to be get disrespected like that. We wouldn't do that on Fourth of July."


I Like how they followed the classic find the dumbest person around to quote

To be honest, I get the weird feeling this isn't the whole story; wouldn't be surprised if something more inflammatory then they were wearing american t shirts(such as a this is our country get out shirt with the flag on it) was going on.*

That being said, if the school actually sent kids home for wearing American flags, its pretty fucking disgusting.

*someone had to devil's advocate
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Re: Students Kicked Off Campus for Wearing American Flag Tee

Postby Lazar » Thu May 06, 2010 8:14 pm UTC

I'm not one for nationlistic resentment, but I think students should have the right to wear whatever (non-obscene) shirts they want, regardless of what holiday it is.
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Re: Students Kicked Off Campus for Wearing American Flag Tee

Postby Kayangelus » Thu May 06, 2010 8:16 pm UTC

But to many Mexican-American students at Live Oak, this was a big deal. They say they were offended by the five boys and others for wearing American colors on a Mexican holiday.
"I think they should apologize cause it is a Mexican Heritage Day," Annicia Nunez, a Live Oak High student, said. "We don't deserve to be get disrespected like that. We wouldn't do that on Fourth of July."


If you are offended by a person wearing a flag of their nation on their T-shirt, when living in that country, just because it happens to be a national holiday for you, you are in the wrong country.

Now I'm wondering if there is a news article somewhere that gives the same story, but from the opposite side.

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Re: Students Kicked Off Campus for Wearing American Flag Tee

Postby JayAr » Thu May 06, 2010 8:18 pm UTC

Why did any of the students wearing Italian colors not get turned away on that day? it is a lame attempt at a joke

This is highly messed up, and I don't know what to think.
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Re: Students Kicked Off Campus for Wearing American Flag Tee

Postby JBJ » Thu May 06, 2010 8:20 pm UTC

Uh... he and four of his friends coordinated their appearance. It's not like they just woke up that morning and said, "Hey, you know what, I think I'll wear my American stuff today" and by pure coincidence, they just all happened to have the same idea. They weren't expressing their individuality, they were trying to make a statement or provoke some kind of conflict. Why did they choose May 5th? Why not some other day? They were doing it for the lulz, and when they got called on it they claim they are just expressing their patriotism.
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Re: Students Kicked Off Campus for Wearing American Flag Tee

Postby BlackSails » Thu May 06, 2010 8:22 pm UTC

JBJ wrote:Uh... he and four of his friends coordinated their appearance. It's not like they just woke up that morning and said, "Hey, you know what, I think I'll wear my American stuff today" and by pure coincidence, they just all happened to have the same idea. They weren't expressing their individuality, they were trying to make a statement or provoke some kind of conflict. Why did they choose May 5th? Why not some other day? They were doing it for the lulz, and when they got called on it they claim they are just expressing their patriotism.


I dont care why the fuck they chose to do it. Other than the obvious issues with free speech and all that, its a fucking american flag in america. I dont care what day it is.

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Re: Students Kicked Off Campus for Wearing American Flag Tee

Postby Kayangelus » Thu May 06, 2010 8:26 pm UTC

JBJ wrote:Uh... he and four of his friends coordinated their appearance. It's not like they just woke up that morning and said, "Hey, you know what, I think I'll wear my American stuff today" and by pure coincidence, they just all happened to have the same idea. They weren't expressing their individuality, they were trying to make a statement or provoke some kind of conflict. Why did they choose May 5th? Why not some other day? They were doing it for the lulz, and when they got called on it they claim they are just expressing their patriotism.


Let me repeat myself. If people are upset at Americans wearing US flags in the US, they don't belong in the US.

It doesn't matter why these five kids wore the shirts. It doesn't matter if they were trying to provoke a conflict. If something like this can provoke a conflict, there is a fault with those who got upset, not the ones trying to provoke them.

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Re: Students Kicked Off Campus for Wearing American Flag Tee

Postby mmmcannibalism » Thu May 06, 2010 8:27 pm UTC

JBJ wrote:Uh... he and four of his friends coordinated their appearance. It's not like they just woke up that morning and said, "Hey, you know what, I think I'll wear my American stuff today" and by pure coincidence, they just all happened to have the same idea. They weren't expressing their individuality, they were trying to make a statement or provoke some kind of conflict. Why did they choose May 5th? Why not some other day? They were doing it for the lulz, and when they got called on it they claim they are just expressing their patriotism.


So? While I don't think cinco de mayo celebrations should be taken as an affront to patriotism*(which may be the case of these kids) if all they did was choose to wear flags to say "we are proud of this country" they have every right to do so. It is pretty screwed up if we are actually saying you can't take pride in America if another group of people called dibs.
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Re: Students Kicked Off Campus for Wearing American Flag Tee

Postby Lazar » Thu May 06, 2010 8:30 pm UTC

The other hypothetical example that comes to my mind (maybe a little less potent these days) would be if a bunch of people wore orange on St Patrick's Day. And likewise, I think even if they're being dicks and trying to aggravate people, they still have the right to wear it.
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Re: Students Kicked Off Campus for Wearing American Flag Tee

Postby Endless Mike » Thu May 06, 2010 8:31 pm UTC

I can already see the freerepublic responses to this. :(

(And no, I don't agree with the school's actions.)

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Re: Students Kicked Off Campus for Wearing American Flag Tee

Postby Garm » Thu May 06, 2010 8:36 pm UTC

Sending kids home for wearing non-offensive tee-shirts is stupid. Chances are no one celebrating Cinco De Mayo would have noticed.

On the other hand, wearing something with an American flag on it and then claiming you're a patriot means you deserve to get sent home...

• The flag should not be used as "wearing apparel, bedding, or drapery",[1] or for covering a speaker's desk, draping a platform, or for any decoration in general (exception for coffins). Bunting of blue, white and red stripes is available for these purposes. The blue stripe of the bunting should be on the top.
• The flag should never be used for any advertising purpose. It should not be embroidered, printed, or otherwise impressed on such articles as cushions, handkerchiefs, napkins, boxes, or anything intended to be discarded after temporary use. Advertising signs should not be attached to the staff or halyard.
• The flag should not be used as part of a costume or athletic uniform, except that a flag patch may be used on the uniform of military personnel, firefighters, police officers, and members of patriotic organizations.

Flag as part of a uniform is okay. Flag on a tee-shirt, not okay.
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Re: Students Kicked Off Campus for Wearing American Flag Tee

Postby JBJ » Thu May 06, 2010 8:38 pm UTC

I don't have a problem with them wearing American flag T-shirts, even on Cinco de Mayo. I have a problem with them being disingenuous.

If these kids really expect me to believe that they are that patriotic, I'll expect them to wear their American apparel on a regular basis. I am highly doubtful that they will. Otherwise, they chose a specific day to wear their stuff for a specific reason, and I don't believe it was just to express their individual patriotism.
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Re: Students Kicked Off Campus for Wearing American Flag Tee

Postby jakovasaur » Thu May 06, 2010 8:44 pm UTC

Garm wrote:Sending kids home for wearing non-offensive tee-shirts is stupid. Chances are no one celebrating Cinco De Mayo would have noticed.

On the other hand, wearing something with an American flag on it and then claiming you're a patriot means you deserve to get sent home...

• The flag should not be used as "wearing apparel, bedding, or drapery",[1] or for covering a speaker's desk, draping a platform, or for any decoration in general (exception for coffins). Bunting of blue, white and red stripes is available for these purposes. The blue stripe of the bunting should be on the top.
• The flag should never be used for any advertising purpose. It should not be embroidered, printed, or otherwise impressed on such articles as cushions, handkerchiefs, napkins, boxes, or anything intended to be discarded after temporary use. Advertising signs should not be attached to the staff or halyard.
• The flag should not be used as part of a costume or athletic uniform, except that a flag patch may be used on the uniform of military personnel, firefighters, police officers, and members of patriotic organizations.

Flag as part of a uniform is okay. Flag on a tee-shirt, not okay.

You're not really suggesting schools should enforce the flag code, in full, for all students, all the time, are you?

JBJ wrote:I don't have a problem with them wearing American flag T-shirts, even on Cinco de Mayo. I have a problem with them being disingenuous.

And you're not really suggesting schools should suspend kids for being disingenuous, are you?

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Re: Students Kicked Off Campus for Wearing American Flag Tee

Postby JBJ » Thu May 06, 2010 8:59 pm UTC

jakovasaur wrote:
JBJ wrote:I don't have a problem with them wearing American flag T-shirts, even on Cinco de Mayo. I have a problem with them being disingenuous.

And you're not really suggesting schools should suspend kids for being disingenuous, are you?

No, I think they're being dicks for being disingenuous. They were threatened with suspension for defiance.

The school has a right to maintain order on campus, and they have the right to punish students who, for lack of a better term, disturb the peace. Whether a student disturbs the peace through verbal statements, appearance, or any other medium doesn't matter. The administration saw their appearance as potentially causing a conflict and tried to nip it in the bud politely, and as far as I can tell, did not threaten any disciplinary action on their first request. The boys refused which, in addition to defiance, indicates that they would be in favor of creating a conflict, and for those reasons they could've been suspended.
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Re: Students Kicked Off Campus for Wearing American Flag Tee

Postby mmmcannibalism » Thu May 06, 2010 9:07 pm UTC

JBJ wrote:
jakovasaur wrote:
JBJ wrote:I don't have a problem with them wearing American flag T-shirts, even on Cinco de Mayo. I have a problem with them being disingenuous.

And you're not really suggesting schools should suspend kids for being disingenuous, are you?

No, I think they're being dicks for being disingenuous. They were threatened with suspension for defiance.

The school has a right to maintain order on campus, and they have the right to punish students who, for lack of a better term, disturb the peace. Whether a student disturbs the peace through verbal statements, appearance, or any other medium doesn't matter. The administration saw their appearance as potentially causing a conflict and tried to nip it in the bud politely, and as far as I can tell, did not threaten any disciplinary action on their first request. The boys refused which, in addition to defiance, indicates that they would be in favor of creating a conflict, and for those reasons they could've been suspended.


I know this is quaint, but I value the right to wear a perfectly respectable looking shirt over the right to force everyone to celebrate your holiday. Would you have been okay with the school sending home kids celebrating cinco de mayo since it might have caused a conflict?

edit--

I was told once through boy scouts the don't wear the flag as apparel means quite literally do not turn a flag into a shirt/dress.
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Re: Students Kicked Off Campus for Wearing American Flag Tee

Postby Kayangelus » Thu May 06, 2010 9:10 pm UTC

JBJ wrote:
jakovasaur wrote:
JBJ wrote:I don't have a problem with them wearing American flag T-shirts, even on Cinco de Mayo. I have a problem with them being disingenuous.

And you're not really suggesting schools should suspend kids for being disingenuous, are you?

No, I think they're being dicks for being disingenuous. They were threatened with suspension for defiance.

The school has a right to maintain order on campus, and they have the right to punish students who, for lack of a better term, disturb the peace. Whether a student disturbs the peace through verbal statements, appearance, or any other medium doesn't matter. The administration saw their appearance as potentially causing a conflict and tried to nip it in the bud politely, and as far as I can tell, did not threaten any disciplinary action on their first request. The boys refused which, in addition to defiance, indicates that they would be in favor of creating a conflict, and for those reasons they could've been suspended.


Sorry, but America is a free country. You can't be punished for defiance that is not breaking any rules.

Also, this is America. Wearing a flag of the nation is /not/ disturbing the peace. If people react violently to an American flag, then they are disturbing the peace. Not the people with the flag

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Re: Students Kicked Off Campus for Wearing American Flag Tee

Postby Spambot5546 » Thu May 06, 2010 9:15 pm UTC

mmmcannibalism wrote:I was told once through boy scouts the don't wear the flag as apparel means quite literally do not turn a flag into a shirt/dress.

It can be read either way, although yours is the way it was explained to me too. Either way it's a severely douchey thing to do, rather like going to a concert and wearing the performing band's t-shirt.
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Re: Students Kicked Off Campus for Wearing American Flag Tee

Postby JayAr » Thu May 06, 2010 9:20 pm UTC

Spambot5546 wrote:
mmmcannibalism wrote:I was told once through boy scouts the don't wear the flag as apparel means quite literally do not turn a flag into a shirt/dress.

It can be read either way, although yours is the way it was explained to me too. Either way it's a severely douchey thing to do, rather like going to a concert and wearing the performing band's t-shirt while playing another bands song.


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Re: Students Kicked Off Campus for Wearing American Flag Tee

Postby Texas_Ben » Thu May 06, 2010 9:26 pm UTC

JBJ wrote:The schoolgovernment has a right to maintain order on campus, and they have the right to punish studentscitizens who, for lack of a better term, disturb the peace. Whether a student disturbs the peace through verbal statements, appearance, or any other medium doesn't matter. The administrationgovernment saw their appearance as potentially causing a conflict and tried to nip it in the bud politely, and as far as I can tell, did not threaten any disciplinary action on their first request. The boys refused which, in addition to defiance, indicates that they would be in favor of creating a conflict intended to exercise their rights, and for those reasons they could've been suspendedarrested.

Sound good? I can't believe that you are actually endorsing forcibly shutting people up because they might offend someone.
I'm a little disappointed that the students folded and went home though. They should have stood their ground. That way when they get suspended they can sue the school and it's shitty principal for a fuckton of money, and the fascist shit responsible would get fired. Hopefully the fascist shit responsible still gets fired.

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Re: Students Kicked Off Campus for Wearing American Flag Tee

Postby mmmcannibalism » Thu May 06, 2010 9:42 pm UTC

Sound good? I can't believe that you are actually endorsing forcibly shutting people up because they might offend someone.
I'm a little disappointed that the students folded and went home though. They should have stood their ground.


I agree except for the lawsuit, the students should have stayed because it would have made a much stronger statement when they were arrested/suspended.
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Re: Students Kicked Off Campus for Wearing American Flag Tee

Postby JBJ » Thu May 06, 2010 9:44 pm UTC

Texas_Ben wrote:
JBJ wrote:The schoolgovernment has a right to maintain order on campus, and they have the right to punish studentscitizens who, for lack of a better term, disturb the peace. Whether a student disturbs the peace through verbal statements, appearance, or any other medium doesn't matter. The administrationgovernment saw their appearance as potentially causing a conflict and tried to nip it in the bud politely, and as far as I can tell, did not threaten any disciplinary action on their first request. The boys refused which, in addition to defiance, indicates that they would be in favor of creating a conflict intended to exercise their rights, and for those reasons they could've been suspendedarrested.

Sound good? I can't believe that you are actually endorsing forcibly shutting people up because they might offend someone.
I'm a little disappointed that the students folded and went home though. They should have stood their ground. That way when they get suspended they can sue the school and it's shitty principal for a fuckton of money, and the fascist shit responsible would get fired. Hopefully the fascist shit responsible still gets fired.

Oh hey, guess what? Schools are not 100% free speech zones. Speech is protected, and students don't lose all their rights the moment they step into the classroom, but it has been upheld that school administrators have the ability to restrict speech if they can show that it disrupts the school's educational mission (Tinker v Des Moines). I personally believe that these students were trying to cause a disruption.
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Re: Students Kicked Off Campus for Wearing American Flag Tee

Postby mmmcannibalism » Thu May 06, 2010 9:49 pm UTC

JBJ wrote:
Texas_Ben wrote:
JBJ wrote:The schoolgovernment has a right to maintain order on campus, and they have the right to punish studentscitizens who, for lack of a better term, disturb the peace. Whether a student disturbs the peace through verbal statements, appearance, or any other medium doesn't matter. The administrationgovernment saw their appearance as potentially causing a conflict and tried to nip it in the bud politely, and as far as I can tell, did not threaten any disciplinary action on their first request. The boys refused which, in addition to defiance, indicates that they would be in favor of creating a conflict intended to exercise their rights, and for those reasons they could've been suspendedarrested.

Sound good? I can't believe that you are actually endorsing forcibly shutting people up because they might offend someone.
I'm a little disappointed that the students folded and went home though. They should have stood their ground. That way when they get suspended they can sue the school and it's shitty principal for a fuckton of money, and the fascist shit responsible would get fired. Hopefully the fascist shit responsible still gets fired.

Oh hey, guess what? Schools are not 100% free speech zones. Speech is protected, and students don't lose all their rights the moment they step into the classroom, but it has been upheld that school administrators have the ability to restrict speech if they can show that it disrupts the school's educational mission (Tinker v Des Moines). I personally believe that these students were trying to cause a disruption.


Which in this case very readily implies the administrators can do anything they want; if an american flag is a disruption in the classroom everything is. We aren't talking about whether or not an administrator crossed the line with censoring a shirt that had profanity on it, or whether the message "fuck the government" would be reasonable to ban in school; in this case the administrator punished* students for displaying the american flag.

*by threat of suspension or other punishment
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Re: Students Kicked Off Campus for Wearing American Flag Tee

Postby toooskies » Thu May 06, 2010 9:53 pm UTC

I would think true patriots would be upset that these boys were using something patriotic (the American flag and image) as a weapon against something that in itself isn't unpatriotic: cultural heritage. They are specifically rallying against what makes America great in America's name.

When you use patriotism for any other reason than to express gratitude for being in America, you're doing a disservice to patriotism. You're cheapening it.
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Re: Students Kicked Off Campus for Wearing American Flag Tee

Postby TheGrammarBolshevik » Thu May 06, 2010 9:57 pm UTC

Oh my, lots of ridiculous shit in this thread.

There's nothing inherently good about waving an American flag around. If you're doing it to show how much more loyal you are than the people around you, then, yeah, that's somewhat hostile — not threatening, but socially a bit hostile. I can't tell from this article if that was even going on, but it's a possibility that can't be dismissed by yelling "This is America!" And a school does have the power to prevent you from doing things that "materially and substantially interfere with the requirements of appropriate discipline in the operation of the school¹," even if those things would fall under First Amendment protection elsewhere.

That being said, I doubt that their clothing was interfering with the operation of the school, even if it was (and we don't know that this is the case) a bit dickish. It wasn't right to force them to change — but because of the First Amendment, not because message carried by the flag are impeccable.

¹ Tinker v. Des Moines

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mmmcannibalism wrote:if an american flag is a disruption in the classroom everything is.

See, this is the claim that I'm not seeing justified. Clearly the American flag means lots of things to a lot of people, since they're getting so worked up about it here; why can't some of those meanings be disruptive in some contexts?
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Re: Students Kicked Off Campus for Wearing American Flag Tee

Postby skeptical scientist » Thu May 06, 2010 10:01 pm UTC

mmmcannibalism wrote:Which in this case very readily implies the administrators can do anything they want; if an american flag is a disruption in the classroom everything is.

We're not talking about "an American flag in the classroom". We're talking about a group of students deliberately choosing to display the implied message "I'm not Mexican and I'm proud of it" on Cinco de Mayo. Is it so hard to believe that such activity could be disruptive?

[I]n this case the administrator punished* students for displaying the american flag.

*by threat of suspension or other punishment

Since when is being asked to turn your shirt inside out an unreasonable punishment? And once the students refused a reasonable request from a school administrator, the issue is no longer simply what they chose to wear, but an unwillingness to accept reasonable requests from school officials. Students flagrantly disregarding authority is obviously a significant threat to the orderly function of the school, and suspending students for continued defiance is completely reasonable.
Last edited by skeptical scientist on Thu May 06, 2010 10:07 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Students Kicked Off Campus for Wearing American Flag Tee

Postby MikeBabaguh » Thu May 06, 2010 10:06 pm UTC

Somehow I doubt many Mexicans stop displaying the Mexican flag on the Fourth of July.

Glad to see these boys were vindicated.
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Re: Students Kicked Off Campus for Wearing American Flag Tee

Postby mmmcannibalism » Thu May 06, 2010 10:07 pm UTC

See, this is the claim that I'm not seeing justified. Clearly the American flag means lots of things to a lot of people, since they're getting so worked up about it here; why can't some of those meanings be disruptive in some contexts?


Are there times when a flag could be "disruptive"? Possibly, but if something as simple as a countries flag can be called disruptive, then it gives administrators the right to ban anything they feel like.

There's nothing inherently good about waving an American flag around. If you're doing it to show how much more loyal you are than the people around you, then, yeah, that's somewhat hostile — not threatening, but socially a bit hostile. I can't tell from this article if that was even going on, but it's a possibility that can't be dismissed by yelling "This is America!" And a school does have the power to prevent you from doing things that "materially and substantially interfere with the requirements of appropriate discipline in the operation of the school¹," even if those things would fall under First Amendment protection elsewhere.


I agree completely; if it comes out that this was the kids trying to say we are better then americans then you they are total asses. The problem is even if we assume they wore all american flag shirts as a group effort, there are plenty of perfectly reasonable messages it could be sending. As covered above, it seems logical that if a school administrator can call a flag disruptive because it offends someone, they can ban anything if they say it was potentially offensive.

edit--

We're not talking about "an American flag in the classroom". We're talking about a group of students deliberately choosing to display the implied message "I'm not Mexican and I'm proud of it" on Cinco de Mayo. Is it so hard to believe that such activity could be disruptive?


I'm glad you were able to jump to that conclusion; because clearly they were expressing dislike of mexicans and only dislike of mexicans.

Since when is being asked to turn your shirt inside out an unreasonable punishment? And once the students refused a reasonable request from a school administrator, the issue is no longer simply what they chose to wear, but an unwillingness to accept reasonable requests from school officials. Students flagrantly disregarding authority is obviously a significant threat to the orderly function of the school, and suspending students for continued defiance is completely reasonable.


So if someone in authority tell you to do something, they can punish you for disobeying even if the initial request was illegal?
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Re: Students Kicked Off Campus for Wearing American Flag Tee

Postby TheGrammarBolshevik » Thu May 06, 2010 10:16 pm UTC

mmmcannibalism wrote:The problem is even if we assume they wore all american flag shirts as a group effort, there are plenty of perfectly reasonable messages it could be sending.

The message is in the eye of the beholder; whether it's disruptive depends on whether it disrupted the school day, not on whether the people in the shirts intended it to. If this was the case, then asking them to turn their shirts inside-out is not unreasonable.

mmmcannibalism wrote:Are there times when a flag could be "disruptive"? Possibly, but if something as simple as a countries flag can be called disruptive, then it gives administrators the right to ban anything they feel like.

Yeah, I'm calling bullshit again, since you've barely rephrased what I was objecting to before. An American flag is not that simple; the message that it sends can be somewhat more complex; and whether it is complex or simple is a different question from whether it is disruptive.
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Re: Students Kicked Off Campus for Wearing American Flag Tee

Postby Texas_Ben » Thu May 06, 2010 10:18 pm UTC

mmmcannibalism wrote:I agree except for the lawsuit, the students should have stayed because it would have made a much stronger statement when they were arrested/suspended.

I was rather hoping for a lawsuit because then you have precedent, which stops ridiculous shit like this from happening in the future.

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Re: Students Kicked Off Campus for Wearing American Flag Tee

Postby Cynical Idealist » Thu May 06, 2010 10:23 pm UTC

MikeBabaguh wrote:Somehow I doubt many Mexicans stop displaying the Mexican flag on the Fourth of July.

Cinco de Mayo isn't even as important to Mexicans as the Fourth of July is to to citizens of the U.S.. Most people in Mexico don't really care about it*. It's a minor holiday there, and the only reason its so big in the States is that some beer companies thought it would be good to find a holiday to use to sell Mexican beers.

*Contrary to popular belief, May 5 is not even close to Mexican Independence Day, which is actually on September 16.
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Re: Students Kicked Off Campus for Wearing American Flag Tee

Postby mmmcannibalism » Thu May 06, 2010 10:28 pm UTC

The message is in the eye of the beholder; whether it's disruptive depends on whether it disrupted the school day, not on whether the people in the shirts intended it to. If this was the case, then asking them to turn their shirts inside-out is not unreasonable.


Which is a debate to have if we ever get clarification of whether or not there was a disruption and if its ever shown they ever had a message other then being patriotic. That being said, if wearing an american shirt was a disruptive message; the administrators should have also gone after the kids celebrating a holiday during school hours.

Yeah, I'm calling bullshit again, since you've barely rephrased what I was objecting to before. An American flag is not that simple; the message that it sends can be somewhat more complex; and whether it is complex or simple is a different question from whether it is disruptive.


I think your wearing of the colour purple marks a belief that you think you are royalty and believe you are my superior. Furthermore, I believe your wearing of black is causing a negative attitude that is disruptive to the school day.

Of course there is an understanding that there can be certain things that carry more then a pure physical message(like it being reasonable to ban wearing bandanas that are known as gang signs in an area). Unless it comes out that these kids were radically* anti mexican they were punished simply for wearing a flag

*and I mean beyond just being opposed to amnesty or something.
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Re: Students Kicked Off Campus for Wearing American Flag Tee

Postby Aetius » Thu May 06, 2010 10:39 pm UTC

Just this last year I saw a guy flying a confederate flag on July 4th. So yeah, you live in the United States where we afford all manner of assholes the right to express themselves, suck it up and deal.

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Re: Students Kicked Off Campus for Wearing American Flag Tee

Postby Ulc » Thu May 06, 2010 10:41 pm UTC

I really don't get half of this discussion.

Yes, we can all probably agree that school children should be allowed to wear whatever non-obscene t-shirt they want.

What they shouldn't be allowed to do is coordinated trolling. This has nothing whatsoever to do with patriotism or pride in their nation. This is one simple thing, five kids thinking "can we offend people" - and when they try they succeed, not because wearing the flag offends those having a holiday, but because the obvious attempt at "how can we troll these people?" is offensive in itself.

Look, if five different kids had chosen to wear american flag Tees, no one would have looked twice at them. But when five friends coordinate to have Tees and bandanas all of them, it has nothing to do with national pride, then it is simply trolling.

Do anyone here seriously believe that five friends randomly choose to wear that outfit on that day?
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Re: Students Kicked Off Campus for Wearing American Flag Tee

Postby TheGrammarBolshevik » Thu May 06, 2010 10:41 pm UTC

mmmcannibalism wrote:That being said, if wearing an american shirt was a disruptive message; the administrators should have also gone after the kids celebrating a holiday during school hours.

Why? Is celebrating a holiday necessarily disruptive? Why would the disruptiveness of the shirts be dependent on the disruptiveness of the celebration?

mmmcannibalism wrote:I think your wearing of the colour purple marks a belief that you think you are royalty and believe you are my superior. Furthermore, I believe your wearing of black is causing a negative attitude that is disruptive to the school day.

mmmcannibalism wrote:radically* anti mexican ... *and I mean beyond just being opposed to amnesty or something.

Since you apparently understand that patriotism can be tied to racist messages, I assume that you also understand that such a conclusion would be less arbitrary than those fictitious objections that you've created merely for the sake of argument.
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Re: Students Kicked Off Campus for Wearing American Flag Tee

Postby mmmcannibalism » Thu May 06, 2010 10:48 pm UTC

What they shouldn't be allowed to do is coordinated trolling. This has nothing whatsoever to do with patriotism or pride in their nation. This is one simple thing, five kids thinking "can we offend people" - and when they try they succeed, not because wearing the flag offends those having a holiday, but because the obvious attempt at "how can we troll these people?" is offensive in itself.

Look, if five different kids had chosen to wear american flag Tees, no one would have looked twice at them. But when five friends coordinate to have Tees and bandanas all of them, it has nothing to do with national pride, then it is simply trolling.

Do anyone here seriously believe that five friends randomly choose to wear that outfit on that day?


Right to speak is also the right to speak together. Surely you don't believe you can have an opinion as long as noone else shares it?

Why? Is celebrating a holiday necessarily disruptive? Why would the disruptiveness of the shirts be dependent on the disruptiveness of the celebration?


It seems to me if the administration believes banning flags was needed to protect the celebration, the celebration was probably more disruptive then a benign symbol on a shirt.

Since you apparently understand that patriotism can be tied to racist messages, I assume that you also understand that such a conclusion would be less arbitrary than those fictitious objections that you've created merely for the sake of argument.


I do, but I think we can both agree this is close(if not over) the point where we are empowering administration to ban anything they don't like. The point is that a symbol was banned because a small amount of people(if any besides the girl they quoted after asking her about it) found it offensive*. It is a bit scary that someone not liking your shirt is grounds to ban it.

*we aren't talking about a swastika here.
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Re: Students Kicked Off Campus for Wearing American Flag Tee

Postby jakovasaur » Thu May 06, 2010 10:55 pm UTC

In an unprecedented development, a thread in News & Articles does not include enough information to make a rational judgment!

It is conceivable, maybe even likely, that these kids were being douchebags, but there is no evidence in the article (a.k.a. the only evidence we have) to suggest that there was a significant disruption that warranted the school's actions.

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Re: Students Kicked Off Campus for Wearing American Flag Tee

Postby Texas_Ben » Thu May 06, 2010 10:56 pm UTC

Ulc wrote:What they shouldn't be allowed to do is coordinated trolling. This has nothing whatsoever to do with patriotism or pride in their nation. This is one simple thing, five kids thinking "can we offend people" - and when they try they succeed, not because wearing the flag offends those having a holiday, but because the obvious attempt at "how can we troll these people?" is offensive in itself.

You don't have the right to not be offended. These kids did absolutely nothing wrong.


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