North Korea threatens 'all-out war'

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BlackSails
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Re: North Korea threatens 'all-out war'

Postby BlackSails » Sat May 29, 2010 1:34 pm UTC

Zamfir wrote:
But why would the other generals, and industrial leaders and whoever else has power in North Korea allow that? Unless they had a very good certainty that they could keep their current positions of power?


Oh, his path to power would probably involve mass executions and something similar to the night of the long knives, but its better than a prolonged civil war.

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Re: North Korea threatens 'all-out war'

Postby Zamfir » Sat May 29, 2010 2:14 pm UTC

BlackSails wrote:
Zamfir wrote:
But why would the other generals, and industrial leaders and whoever else has power in North Korea allow that? Unless they had a very good certainty that they could keep their current positions of power?


Oh, his path to power would probably involve mass executions and something similar to the night of the long knives, but its better than a prolonged civil war.

But if you are aiming for a cleansing of the old guard, why is it good if the new system is a strong-arm figure again? The more power is concentrated in a small group, the more likely it is that the interests of that group differ from the country as a whole.

Why not aim at least for something like China or Vietnam, with an authoritarian but broad ruling party? In such system, the people in power have to show at least some results in improving the country as a whole.

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Re: North Korea threatens 'all-out war'

Postby Argency » Sat May 29, 2010 2:33 pm UTC

June 30, 2010 - A rag-tag band of desperados hailing from the online forum space "XCKD" caused an international stir last night when they arrived at the gates of Seoul's largest military installation with ruthless and unstable dictator Kim Jong Il in custody. It seems this dashing group of unlikely heroes concluded after vigorous debate that the only way to ensure continuing peace in Korea was to place KJ Il within the borders of Seoul itself (forestalling the posibility of a large-scale assault on the city) and with the international diplomatic community stymied, had chosen to take matters into their own hands. Whilst senior XKCD mods-cum-generals declined to comment, sources close to them have hinted that the commando force responsible for this daring kidnapping - whilst comprised mainly of devil-may-care internet humor aficionados - may have been complemented by a small and brutally efficient pack of raptors. No raptors were available for comment at the time this newspaper went to print.
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Re: North Korea threatens 'all-out war'

Postby Zamfir » Sat May 29, 2010 2:37 pm UTC

Argency wrote:June 30, 2010 - A rag-tag band of desperados hailing from the online forum space "XCKD" caused an international stir last night when they arrived at the gates of Seoul's largest military installation with ruthless and unstable dictator Kim Jong Il in custody. It seems this dashing group of unlikely heroes concluded after vigorous debate that the only way to ensure continuing peace in Korea was to place KJ Il within the borders of Seoul itself (forestalling the posibility of a large-scale assault on the city) and with the international diplomatic community stymied, had chosen to take matters into their own hands. Whilst senior XKCD mods-cum-generals declined to comment, sources close to them have hinted that the commando force responsible for this daring attack - whilst comprised mainly of devil-may-care internet humor aficionados - may have been complemented by a small and brutally efficient pack of raptors. No raptors were available for comment at the time this newspaper went to print.


Some 15 years ago, a group of Dutchmen was arrested in Serbia who were planning to kidnap Milosevic, put him in ski box on top of their car, and sell him to the highest bidder. "Planning" might be a big word here, their plan was to drive to Serbia with a ski box, and that part of the plan succeeded.

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Re: North Korea threatens 'all-out war'

Postby tastelikecoke » Sat May 29, 2010 2:57 pm UTC

god this sounds scary, they have a reach in range to us, though the source of korean series that we all loved, gone?

Seriously though. Would embargo work? Or is it activated already?

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Re: North Korea threatens 'all-out war'

Postby Argency » Sat May 29, 2010 3:19 pm UTC

Zamfir wrote:Some 15 years ago, a group of Dutchmen was arrested in Serbia who were planning to kidnap Milosevic, put him in ski box on top of their car, and sell him to the highest bidder. "Planning" might be a big word here, their plan was to drive to Serbia with a ski box, and that part of the plan succeeded.

Their mistake was a ground assault. I hear there's a company operating out of Germany that can give you a jetpack and teach you how to use it for $0.5 mil a pop. Effective travel radius, 50km. Give me 500000 beans, a rescue-harness and a parachute and I'll Dark Knight you a dictator.

All frivolity aside, though, Seoul is a bluff, surely? If KJ ever decides to go ahead and glass the place there'll be nothing to stop the rest of the world from coming down on him like a ton of bricks. So we can't invade while he has Seoul at his mercy, but he can't take action against Seoul if he wants to remain in power. Im almost certainly displaying my ignorance, but why can't we just block him from doing anything too crazy and ignore him the rest of the time?
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Re: North Korea threatens 'all-out war'

Postby Iv » Sat May 29, 2010 3:23 pm UTC

Hello all. Good to see this old subject coming back on the news again.
I found this sentence intriguing :
However, North Korea strongly denied responsibility for the attack, calling the investigation a "fabrication orchestrated by a group of traitors".

What is the probability that this, is not, actually, a lie ? That there could be a dissident group in NK's army that decided to sink the first south korean boat they could find ? After all, misinformed and misguided as north-koreans are, the possibility is strong that some military officials have a more "hawkish" position than KJIL and consider to disobey orders in order to attack the "weak and feeble southern army" by themselves. Why expect sanity in subordinate of an insane leader ?

I'd like to add a fistful of remarks to the discussion :
- Status of the conflict : NK and SK are officially still at war but have been for 50 years in a state of cease-fire. Sinking an enemy ship can be seen as a very clear violation of the cease fire and legitimize a counter strike by SK. There is not even need for a casus belli : there IS currently a state of war.
- UN and inability to declare war : UN cannot declare war as a belligerent but it can support one side of a war and send blue-helmets, equipements and funds like it did in the korea war (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nat ... olution_84). Calling that a declaration of war from the UN is just a matter of semantics. In fact, the Korea war was maybe the biggest war effort ever supported by the UN. An angry letter from them in this case is nothing to be ridiculed. In fact such a letter would mean that China has removed its support from NK which would be an incredibly strong signal.
- Nuking North Korea, ethical concern : this may be just an internet forum, but I am shocked that some people consider acceptable the preemptive nuking of a country in order to save a city from mostly material damage and propose such a huge difference in the values of north and south korean lives. Such a nuclear attack would kill millions and by all accounts would amount to a war crime.

- Nuking North Korea, technical concern : the artillery pieces that threaten Seoul are camouflaged and protected inside mountain tunnels. A nuke powerful enough to destroy such a sheltered artillery piece would have a hard time having a radius that does not damage Seoul as well.

- Nuclear menace of NK : analysis of the seismologic data suggest that their nukes are either very weak or that they have misfired. Their ballistic technology also looks quite random, with AEGIS deployed around, the nuclear threat posed by NK in a military conflict is pretty small. They have, however, a huge potential for terrorism. They have decent secret services (they sucessfully bombed a plane, they successfully killed 4 SK officials in an explosion...) and most western countries have barely enough counter-terrorism resources to prevent an amateurish Al-Quaeda attack, they would have close to no chance in front of a well organized secret service operation. I think that is currently the most major deterrent to attacking NK.

- Evacuating Seoul : That shouldn't be really difficult. After all, this is what happens every holiday or every rush hour. It could be done within a day. Also note that we are talking about artillery bombing, so subway stations can act as decent shelter for a big population in this case. Subway is prepared for that, there are racks of gas masks inside each station in case of attacks. Of course NK would now immediately about this. But that would have a tremendous cost to South Korea. Much higher than maintaining the status-quo. The outcome of the following war would be very uncertain and SK has no assurance that it will make any benefit in this operation. Even if it could be assured to get all NK territory afterwards, it may not be a profitable operation.

- About the size of NK's army : yes, it is said to be one of the biggest, if not the biggest, in the world. But that is just counting citizens officially reported as soldiers. Equipment is old, desertion rates are so high that people patrolling together have the order at shooting each other in case of suspicious behavior. This may be grossly exaggerated anecdotal evidences, but odds are high that in case of war, a lot of soldiers would have a very low motivation and would surrender easily to SK military.

- SK possibilities : As have been pointed out, an all-out war seems a pretty bad option for SK but that isn't the only one. They could engage in low intensity warfare, gradually raising in intensity but not justifying a bombardement of Seoul that would lead to an all-out war. I am not sure where they could go from there, anyway.

- KJIL's insanity : He may very well be crazy, but it is also remarkable that when you practice nuclear blackmail, it is mandatory to give the image of an insane fanatic crazy leaders to your enemies in order to be taken seriously. Nixon used it, and I suspect KJI and Ahaminajad know very well this trick too...

- Assassination of enemy leaders : yes it is insanely hypocritical that this is illegal. That would be the most useful loss of human life in a conflict...

All frivolity aside, though, Seoul is a bluff, surely?
It is mutually assured destruction. A bit different from a bluff as the guy has the ability to do what he claims and that he calls on the others to not give him a reason to do so.

Well, I know that I am just an armchair general, but let's pretend I like to procrastrinate about strategy...

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Re: North Korea threatens 'all-out war'

Postby Bluggo » Sat May 29, 2010 3:39 pm UTC

Iv wrote:- Assassination of enemy leaders : yes it is insanely hypocritical that this is illegal. That would be the most useful loss of human life in a conflict...
I agree with everything you said except for this part.

In the current situation, KJIL's assassination would be a terrible idea, as it would likely either plunge the country into anarchy (and, given NK's nuclear weaponry, that would be a Very Bad Thing) or pretty much force his successor to lead an all-out war of NK against "the West" - most likely, SK.
Sponsoring an internal coup could work better, but only if we'd be reasonably certain that the coup would be successful: again, the top priority is to avoid a "just like Somalia, but with nuclear weapons around" scenario.
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Re: North Korea threatens 'all-out war'

Postby Iv » Sat May 29, 2010 4:00 pm UTC

Bluggo wrote:In the current situation, KJIL's assassination would be a terrible idea
Maybe I wasn't very clear on this point. I don't know if KJI's death would be a good event or not but that considering war actions that will cost civilian lives cold-bloodedly while stating moral reasons prevents one from target-killing an enemy leader is very hypocritical. I am not sure killing KJI would result in anarchy, but if we had reasonnable odds of it disarming the whole situation, I think moral reasons would not hold.

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Re: North Korea threatens 'all-out war'

Postby Argency » Sat May 29, 2010 4:16 pm UTC

Well, yes I agree that its mutually assured destruction. Definitely not a bluff that he'll bomb Seoul if we attack him. What I mean is, KJ Il is bluffing if he uses Seoul as leverage for any other purpose. The only thing that the threat of destroying Seoul should deter is an outright invasion of NK, because if he plays his only ace before he gets invaded then he's going to be wallpaper.

Plus, Bluggo is right. We can't just top him, that'll only make the situation less stable.
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Re: North Korea threatens 'all-out war'

Postby BlackSails » Sat May 29, 2010 4:24 pm UTC

We could always use the tried and true method of assassinating him then supporting the faction most likely to be friendly to us. Its never bitten us in the ass before, why should it now? (Except Bin laden, Hussain and almost every other time we have tried that)

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Re: North Korea threatens 'all-out war'

Postby Shivari » Sat May 29, 2010 6:35 pm UTC

BlackSails wrote:
frezik wrote:North Korea threatens a lot of things. They're like a misbehaving 4-year-old at a grocery store who wants one of those knock-off Super Soakers they sell in the toy isle.

US Military sims show that N. Korea has enough artillery to craterize Seoul within the first 24 hours, and no amount of quick response from the US or allies would be able to stop it in time. N. Korea would, of course, would have all Anti Aircraft defenses leveled within a week, but that's not enough to stop the massive humanitarian disaster.


More than enough to craterize it, and it would take far less than 24 hours. I worked out the yield once (somewhere on this forum I think). It turns out that the first few hours of shelling would have a greater total yield than the NK nuclear arsenal, and since the North Korean artillery is camouflaged, well protected and distributed over a wide area the only way to get rid of it quickly would be nuclear weapons.

Also, all their weapons are certainly pre-ranged and targeted, so there would be no delay at all from the order to fire to the first salvo. And since they are a known position firing at a known target, they probably have everything pre-timed for time-on-target barrages, so everything hits at once and there isnt even any time to sound air-raid sirens and have people get to shelter.

If you want to fight North Korea, the entire northern part of south korea has to be evacuated while we scour the entire southern part of north korea with carpet bombing.

North Korea doesnt have the army to fight any major world power. What they have is 11 million people basically held hostage. (And a tiny nuke or two)


Isn't all of their artillery old as shit though? Would it really rape Seoul that much?

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Re: North Korea threatens 'all-out war'

Postby BlackSails » Sat May 29, 2010 7:15 pm UTC

Old artillery explodes things just as well as modern artillery.

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Re: North Korea threatens 'all-out war'

Postby Shivahn » Sat May 29, 2010 7:22 pm UTC

There's a question on whether the old stuff can reach, though.

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Re: North Korea threatens 'all-out war'

Postby PhoenixEnigma » Sat May 29, 2010 7:22 pm UTC

Shivari wrote:Isn't all of their artillery old as shit though? Would it really rape Seoul that much?

It doesn't take particularly advanced technology to get the job done. 60s-era multiple rocket systems like the BM-21 may not be very cutting edge, nor accurate, but they can throw a shit-tonne* of explosives 40km very quickly.

*Actually, closer to 0.8 tonne per launcher, but who's counting?
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Re: North Korea threatens 'all-out war'

Postby Iv » Sat May 29, 2010 7:57 pm UTC

About these questions here is a fascinating read :
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/sh ... %282009%29

tl;rd : yes, the artillery could indeed wreak havok.

I find it strange that they don't have more rocket-based designs though. Why artillery ? Is there any good reason for that ?

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Re: North Korea threatens 'all-out war'

Postby Vaniver » Sat May 29, 2010 8:21 pm UTC

Iv wrote:About these questions here is a fascinating read :
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/sh ... %282009%29

tl;rd : yes, the artillery could indeed wreak havok.

I find it strange that they don't have more rocket-based designs though. Why artillery ? Is there any good reason for that ?
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Re: North Korea threatens 'all-out war'

Postby Duban » Sat May 29, 2010 8:33 pm UTC

Iv wrote:- Nuking North Korea, ethical concern : this may be just an internet forum, but I am shocked that some people consider acceptable the preemptive nuking of a country in order to save a city from mostly material damage and propose such a huge difference in the values of north and south korean lives. Such a nuclear attack would kill millions and by all accounts would amount to a war crime.

I think the only reason this would be taken seriously is that a large portion of the North Korean population is cult-like in their dedication. I was under the impression that any attack on N Korea would require most of their population to be slaughtered anyways as many would fight to the death. The main idea is that any invasion of N Korea would end in mass genocide of the population either way. Honestly I don't want to see genocide, but in the case of "Would we rather have a mass genocide of our enemies, or an equally massive genocide of our enemies, AND our allies" I can see why people would take the nuclear option seriously.

Also I somehow doubt the damage would be "mostly material" as you say. Evacuating a large metropolitan area in 24 hours, while under a massive bombardment from artillery and the massive movement of military force in the immediate area. I'm not sure how you can think that's even plausible, never mind likely.
Last edited by Duban on Sat May 29, 2010 9:34 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: North Korea threatens 'all-out war'

Postby Iv » Sat May 29, 2010 9:18 pm UTC

Duban wrote:I think the only reason this would be taken seriously is that a large portion of the North Korean population is cult-like in their dedication. I was under the impression that any attack on N Korea would require most of their population to be slaughtered anyways as many would fight to the death.
The morale of NK forces and civilians is a huge unknown factor but the high desertion rate and the occasional revolts suggest that the support in the population might not be as extreme and homogeneous as you think.

I find the story of Kim Hyon Hui very enlightening in this respect. She was a NK agent who smuggled a bomb in the South Korean flight 858 in 1987, killing 115 people. She was captured and cured from the poison capsule she ingested. She was trained many years as a secret agent, she received her mission from the Dear Leader himself. She was probably more fanatical that the regular peasant. It took her just 8 days to realize all she was told about SK was a lie, to burst into tear and to call for forgiveness for her crime.
http://www.undemocracy.com/S-PV.2791/pa ... 7_945,1157

Currently, a strange thing is happening in NK : some people who managed to flee to China got converted by christians and went back in NK to convert their comrades (all of that completely in secret of course). Words of mouth begin to circulate about how life is outside. People who manage to flee speak about small anti-propaganda movements. Border guards regularly desert from their patrols.

In these conditions, declaring that a genocide is the only practical condition is really a strange way of thinking. All you'll have to do is to give food to your invasion army to distribute to the population and they will realize that they were just told lies about the bloodthirsty capitalists. Oh, and please don't bring Blackwater troops in this one please.

Duban wrote:Also I somehow doubt the damage would be "mostly material" as you say. Evacuating a large metropolitan in 24 hours, while under a massive bombardment from artillery and the massive movement of military force in the immediate area. I'm not sure how you can think that's even plausible, never mind likely.

I am suggesting to evacuate the city before the bombardment begins. On a regular holiday period, a large portion of the population lives the city in a few hours even without organizational help from the authorities. If 20% can leave in 5 hours, why couldn't 100% leave in 25 hours ?
By the way it wouldn't be much longer under a massive bombardment. Civilians can probably make 20-30 kilometers in one day by walking alone in case all major axis are cut off. I don't see why people think it is impossible to do quickly.
According to wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hurricane_Rita#Texas) it took 24 hours to evacuate 2.4 millions of people from Houston in preparation for the arrival of the hurricane Rita in 2005. Seoul is bigger but its infrastructures are bigger also. I don't think that a military-organized evacuation of Seoul in 24 hours is impossible.

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Re: North Korea threatens 'all-out war'

Postby Zamfir » Sat May 29, 2010 9:23 pm UTC

Duban wrote:
Iv wrote:- Nuking North Korea, ethical concern : this may be just an internet forum, but I am shocked that some people consider acceptable the preemptive nuking of a country in order to save a city from mostly material damage and propose such a huge difference in the values of north and south korean lives. Such a nuclear attack would kill millions and by all accounts would amount to a war crime.

I think the only reason this would be taken seriously is that a large portion of the North Korean population is cult-like in their dedication. I was under the impression that any attack on N Korea would require most of their population to be slaughtered anyways as many would fight to the death. The main idea is that any invasion of N Korea would end in mass genocide of the population either way. Honestly I don't want to see genocide, but in the case of "Would we rather have a mass genocide of our enemies, or an equally massive genocide of our enemies, AND our allies" I can see why people would take the nuclear option seriously.


But in the real world, the Koreas have been living next to each other for nearly 60 years now. Which seems a better situation than nuking millions.


It a bit strong to consider killing loads of people out of the blue, and then suggesting they are 'cult-like in their dedication'

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Re: North Korea threatens 'all-out war'

Postby Duban » Sat May 29, 2010 9:30 pm UTC

Zamfir wrote:But in the real world, the Koreas have been living next to each other for nearly 60 years now. Which seems a better situation than nuking millions.


It a bit strong to consider killing loads of people out of the blue, and then suggesting they are 'cult-like in their dedication'
X-/. Ok I can see how you guys misunderstood what I was saying. I wasn't saying we should just preemptively kill them all without even trying to avoid casualties, that's about as fanatical as it gets. I was just pointing out the reasons some people were taking it seriously and to actually better to discuss it rather then respond with a knee jerk reaction.

Also if you suddenly started moving the entire population out of seoul and the northern part of the country do you really think N Korea wouldn't notice?
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Re: North Korea threatens 'all-out war'

Postby Iv » Sat May 29, 2010 9:56 pm UTC

Duban wrote:Also if you suddenly started moving the entire population out of seoul and the northern part of the country do you really think N Korea wouldn't notice?

Why don't you want them to not notice ? What could they do ? Open fire because the city is being evacuated ? That will give them an hint that an attack will happen in the next 24 hours. So what ?

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Re: North Korea threatens 'all-out war'

Postby Apteryx » Sat May 29, 2010 10:25 pm UTC

Re the rules against assassinating heads of state.

International law is formulated by governments, governments are run by heads of state and people who aspire to be heads of state.

They got around to making a law about assassinating heads of state, looked at one another and said "Whoa, we gotta put that RIGHT out of contention". :lol:

The elite have always considered us peons as expendable in war, while insisting on rules that allowed THEM to be safe.

During the Battle of Waterloo* a major of the British artillery ( who was not from the elite, the upper classes ) rode up to General Wellington and said
"Sir, observe that ridge across the valley, Napoleon and his General Staff are collected there, permission to turn my guns on them and destroy them root and branch!" .

Wellington was reported to have looked scornfully at the officer and said " I kill armies, not Generals " and sent him away.

* The battle of Waterloo, when, not for the first time, nor the last time, the British fighting men saved Europe and the world from defeat by a dictator. In fact the score runs something like, Great Britain 6, Russia 1, everyone else in the world, zero. :P
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Re: North Korea threatens 'all-out war'

Postby Jesse » Sun May 30, 2010 10:59 am UTC

This is the real reason why we Brits hate the Americans, as they cheated during their revolution and shot officers.

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Re: North Korea threatens 'all-out war'

Postby Zamfir » Sun May 30, 2010 12:12 pm UTC

Apteryx wrote:* The battle of Waterloo, when, not for the first time, nor the last time, the British fighting men saved Europe and the world from defeat by a dictator. In fact the score runs something like, Great Britain 6, Russia 1, everyone else in the world, zero. :P


You realize that in the aftermath of Waterloo, Europe was divided between absolute monarchs? For people outside of the nobility, Napoleon was not a larger dictator than the guys who came after him.

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Re: North Korea threatens 'all-out war'

Postby Pez Dispens3r » Sun May 30, 2010 3:27 pm UTC

Iv wrote:Why expect sanity in subordinate of an insane leader ?

[ . . . ]

- KJIL's insanity : He may very well be crazy, but it is also remarkable that when you practice nuclear blackmail, it is mandatory to give the image of an insane fanatic crazy leaders to your enemies in order to be taken seriously. Nixon used it, and I suspect KJI and Ahaminajad know very well this trick too...

Kim is not insane. Dictatorships are unstable structures, requiring constant upkeep. A dictator must constantly keep their supporters buttered up, and must act to appease them, or else they will conspire to introduce a new dictator. Kim wants a better treaty with South Korea, Japan, and the United States, but has only one bargaining chip: the threat of devastating force. Appearing to back down is not the way to appeal to the generals and bureaucrats that keep Kim in power. This is the mechanism which keeps Kim throwing around threats and making aggressive displays, but it will always fall short of war, because Kim is not irrational.
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Re: North Korea threatens 'all-out war'

Postby TheKrikkitWars » Sun May 30, 2010 5:19 pm UTC

Zamfir wrote:
Apteryx wrote:* The battle of Waterloo, when, not for the first time, nor the last time, the British fighting men saved Europe and the world from defeat by a dictator. In fact the score runs something like, Great Britain 6, Russia 1, everyone else in the world, zero. :P


You realize that in the aftermath of Waterloo, Europe was divided between absolute monarchs? For people outside of the nobility, Napoleon was not a larger dictator than the guys who came after him.


Though as there was only one democracy at the time Great Britain (and even then, it wouldn't have held up to today's standards), it wasn't exactly an issue like it is today.

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Re: North Korea threatens 'all-out war'

Postby Nomic » Sun May 30, 2010 5:22 pm UTC

As long as NK has all their artillery pointed at Sheoul and ready to reduce the city into a smoking crater, we can't luanch an attack there. As long as we have the cabability to reduce the entire country into a glass parking lot, they won't start anything serious (unless Kim Jong Ill goes completely off his rocker and decides blowing up Sheoul is worth getting his own country destroyed). It's best to just wait untill the man dies or the regime toples into it own impossibility, which is bound to happen sooner or later.

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Re: North Korea threatens 'all-out war'

Postby Gears » Sun May 30, 2010 9:25 pm UTC

Time to park some USN ships in North Korean waters to remind them who's boss.
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Re: North Korea threatens 'all-out war'

Postby Diadem » Sun May 30, 2010 9:57 pm UTC

Gears wrote:Time to park some USN ships in North Korean waters to remind them who's boss.

And that's why so many people around the world hate America.

There's only one boss. America's jurisdiction ends at their borders. Anywhere else in the world, they fall somewhere between esteemed guests and hated tresspassers. But boss they are nowhere.
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Re: North Korea threatens 'all-out war'

Postby Gears » Sun May 30, 2010 11:08 pm UTC

Being the sole super power affords you that right. Try sinking an American naval vessel and see what happens.
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Re: North Korea threatens 'all-out war'

Postby Iv » Sun May 30, 2010 11:09 pm UTC

Gears wrote:Time to park some USN ships in North Korean waters to remind them who's boss.

Well, if you follow the trail of news, that is exactly what happened and NK is showing US and SK who is the boss, indeed.

There has been joint naval exercise with US and SK navy in waters that are claimed by NK but that are internationally recognized as SK waters. During this exercise, one SK ship was sank, despite the proximity of USN ship. "Showing who's boss" ? Well, duh...

Also, I am on the same advice as the War Nerd about navies : big ships are a thing of the past, they are really too easy to sink in a serious conflict today. Submarines and small missile ships that can be lost without too mush cost are what is needed.

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Re: North Korea threatens 'all-out war'

Postby Gears » Sun May 30, 2010 11:10 pm UTC

Troop ships full of Marines are more intimidating than a submarine. Big ships are for intimidation. Sure they sunk an SK ship, they would never dare to sink an American ship.
EDIT: Not saying we should fake a landing. Just show them we have the most powerful military on Earth.
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Re: North Korea threatens 'all-out war'

Postby Shivahn » Sun May 30, 2010 11:20 pm UTC

Gears wrote:Troop ships full of Marines are more intimidating than a submarine. Big ships are for intimidation. Sure they sunk an SK ship, they would never dare to sink an American ship.
EDIT: Not saying we should fake a landing. Just show them we have the most powerful military on Earth.

It would be downright stupid of them to sink an American ship.

Much better to just keep it as a museum.

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Re: North Korea threatens 'all-out war'

Postby Pez Dispens3r » Sun May 30, 2010 11:34 pm UTC

Nomic wrote: (unless Kim Jong Ill goes completely off his rocker and decides blowing up Sheoul is worth getting his own country destroyed).
How many times? This is not going to happen. Kim is not insane. It's this bullshit fucking Western elitism that everything done differently to our way is absurd, and therefore insane. It's Obelix-ignorance: "these North Koreans/Iranians/Iraqis/Saudis/Argies/Turks are fucking crazy" *toc* *toc* *toc*. Fucks sake.

Gears wrote:Troop ships full of Marines are more intimidating than a submarine. Big ships are for intimidation. Sure they sunk an SK ship, they would never dare to sink an American ship.
EDIT: Not saying we should fake a landing. Just show them we have the most powerful military on Earth.
They could sink an American ship, and America wouldn't do dick about it. Why? They care more about Seoul and the thousands of troops they have stationed at the DMZ than they do about a ship full of Marines. But let's put them there anyway, because escalation is exactly what this situation requires, you giant berk.
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Re: North Korea threatens 'all-out war'

Postby Iv » Sun May 30, 2010 11:43 pm UTC

Gears wrote:Troop ships full of Marines are more intimidating than a submarine.
That would be one hell of a tempting target. Just bring them in NK's waters and they will sink it and it will be lawful to do so. They will just sink it, make 100 dead marines. Then what ? Seoul is still at reach. I think they would really call such a bluff.

Gears wrote:Big ships are for intimidation.

And for easy kills. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Zealous_%28R39%29
They are too vulnerable to be considered a serious threat anymore. It takes a shoulder-mounted weapon to make a hit and 4 or 6 hits to sink a ship. They are as intimidating as an elephant charge in WWII.

Gears wrote:EDIT: Not saying we should fake a landing. Just show them we have the most powerful military on Earth.


Eh, typical... You may have thousands of high tech missiles (second only to Russian models) ready to strike Pyongyang and every NK military base, yet a smart strategist is stopping you to use them just by placing outdated artillery guns at a good place. You are the most powerful military on earth, yet when NK kills 50 soldiers of your ally's army, you can't do anything in retaliation. You said you would not accept them to have nukes and now they have. You really have a powerful army, yet something seems to be missing...

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Re: North Korea threatens 'all-out war'

Postby Le1bn1z » Mon May 31, 2010 12:08 am UTC

In military excersises and war games, American Carrier groups are 50/50 against lone, ageing deisel submarines used by NATO allies, and possessed in droves by the N Koreans.

A D/E sub can go three days absolutely silent, and fire six torpedos in one spread, enough to kill a carrier with firepower to spare. That's 6000 dead Americans, in one fell swoop.

And lets not forget USS Cole. American super-ships are remarkably vulnerable. Modern ships are not armoured... not really. They're jackhammers in an egg-shell.

America could win the war, but it would take years, it would take trillions of dollars (which is doesn't have) and cost hundreds of thousands of allied military lives, to say nothing of civilian casualties.

It would make Iraq look like a peaceful vacation.
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Re: North Korea threatens 'all-out war'

Postby Cmebeh » Mon May 31, 2010 3:55 am UTC

All north korea does is do stuff to piss the world off, then they get paid by the UN (aka the united state's money) to not do it again. The government keeps the money for itself, so its people are suffering, so they get even more aid. By constantly misbehaving, the keep the grounds that we have to pay them to not misbehave. Well i say we kill the bastards for taking our money then sign a new nuclear treaty that says any new country not approved by the united states that develops a nuclear weapon automatically gets the location of their government nuked and we get to take all of their weapons.

Then on the side we could sell these weapons to those stupid middle east and African countries till they make a nuke and then we can do the process all over again. At some point these people will just give up on war or completely wipe themselves out from all the war or submit to an acceptable amount of American philosophy of individual freedoms, right to private property, freedom of religion, freedom of speech, and the pursuit of scientific knowledge.

Vote me for president.
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Re: North Korea threatens 'all-out war'

Postby mmmcannibalism » Mon May 31, 2010 4:58 am UTC

Cmebeh wrote:All north korea does is do stuff to piss the world off, then they get paid by the UN (aka the united state's money) to not do it again. The government keeps the money for itself, so its people are suffering, so they get even more aid. By constantly misbehaving, the keep the grounds that we have to pay them to not misbehave. Well i say we kill the bastards for taking our money then sign a new nuclear treaty that says any new country not approved by the united states that develops a nuclear weapon automatically gets the location of their government nuked and we get to take all of their weapons.

Then on the side we could sell these weapons to those stupid middle east and African countries till they make a nuke and then we can do the process all over again. At some point these people will just give up on war or completely wipe themselves out from all the war or submit to an acceptable amount of American philosophy of individual freedoms, right to private property, freedom of religion, freedom of speech, and the pursuit of scientific knowledge.

Vote me for president.


Either this is some sub par satire or you really need to get some help.
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Re: North Korea threatens 'all-out war'

Postby Gears » Mon May 31, 2010 5:07 am UTC

While your diplomacy is doing dick all to resolve this situation, I would support removing the North Korean threat right now instead of when they can strike not only Seoul, but Tokyo or even Los Angeles. You are correct in that we don't care about SK sailors. We do care about a troopship full of Marines. We do have the most powerful military on Earth. The only thing lacking is a politician with balls. And when in the fuck did the United States care about international law? Diplomacy works every time doesn't it?.
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