Tight pants ban takes effect in Indonesia's Aceh

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Tight pants ban takes effect in Indonesia's Aceh

Postby The Reaper » Fri May 28, 2010 9:27 pm UTC

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20100527/D9FV6HC80.html
Authorities in a devoutly Islamic district of Indonesia's Aceh province have distributed 20,000 long skirts and prohibited shops from selling tight dresses as a regulation banning Muslim women from wearing revealing clothing took effect Thursday.
The long skirts are to be given to Muslim women caught violating the dress code during a two-month campaign to enforce the regulation, said Ramli Mansur, head of West Aceh district.
Islamic police will determine whether a woman's clothing violates the dress code, he said.
During raids Thursday, Islamic police caught 18 women traveling on motorbikes who were wearing traditional headscarves but were also dressed in jeans. Each woman was given a long skirt and her pants were confiscated. They were released from police custody after giving their identities and receiving advice from Islamic preachers.
"I am not wearing sexy outfits, but they caught me like a terrorist only because of my jeans," said Imma, a 40-year-old housewife who uses only one name. She argued that wearing jeans is more comfortable when she travels by motorbike.
Motorbikes are commonly used by both men and women in Indonesia.
"The rule applies only to Muslim residents in West Aceh," Mansur told The Associated Press. "We don't enforce it for non-Muslims, but are asking them to respect us."
He said any shopkeepers caught violating restrictions on selling short skirts and jeans would face a revocation of their business licenses.
No merchants have been seen displaying jeans or tight clothing in stores in West Aceh district in recent weeks.
The regulation is the latest effort to promote strict moral values in the world's most populous Muslim-majority nation, where most of the roughly 200 million Muslims practice a moderate form of the faith.
It does not set out a specific punishment for violators, but says "moral sanctions" will be imposed by local leaders.
Mansur said women caught violating the ban more than three times could face two weeks in detention.
Rights groups say the regulation violates international treaties and the Indonesian constitution.
Aceh, a semiautonomous region, made news last year when its provincial parliament passed an Islamic, or Shariah, law making adultery punishable by stoning to death. It also has imposed prison sentences and public lashings for homosexuals and pedophiles.
Islamic law is not enforced across the vast island nation. But bans on drinking alcohol, gambling and kissing in public, among other activities, have been enforced by some more conservative local governments in recent years.
Opinion polls show that a majority of Indonesians oppose the restrictions on dress and behavior, which are being pushed by hard-liners in the secular democracy.

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Re: Tight pants ban takes effect in Indonesia's Aceh

Postby Texas_Ben » Fri May 28, 2010 9:43 pm UTC

Islamic police...secular democracy.

Can someone rectify this for me? If it's a secular democracy why does it have a religious police force?

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Re: Tight pants ban takes effect in Indonesia's Aceh

Postby TheKrikkitWars » Fri May 28, 2010 10:32 pm UTC

Texas_Ben wrote:
Islamic police...secular democracy.

Can someone rectify this for me? If it's a secular democracy why does it have a religious police force?


Also in the article:
Aceh, a semiautonomous region, made news last year when its provincial parliament passed an Islamic, or Shariah, law

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Re: Tight pants ban takes effect in Indonesia's Aceh

Postby Izawwlgood » Fri May 28, 2010 11:08 pm UTC

The Reaper wrote:Each woman was given a long skirt and her pants were confiscated.


Well, sadly I won't be able to use that excuse anymore whenever I show up without them.
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Re: Tight pants ban takes effect in Indonesia's Aceh

Postby el_loco_avs » Sat May 29, 2010 8:07 am UTC

Should be tight pants ban for both sexes!
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Re: Tight pants ban takes effect in Indonesia's Aceh

Postby The Reaper » Sat May 29, 2010 9:21 am UTC

el_loco_avs wrote:Should be tight pants ban for both sexes!

When I first happened upon that article, that's what I had hoped. I was like "yes! they finally banned tight pants!" but then upon closer inspection, temporarily lost faith in humanity again. :\

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Re: Tight pants ban takes effect in Indonesia's Aceh

Postby yoni45 » Sat May 29, 2010 2:48 pm UTC

I uh... Don't necessarily know that this is all that bad... They're being somewhat reasonable about this, and if they find that in their culture tight pants on a woman constitutes indecent exposure, then so be it. Their behavior regarding the matter seems far from draconian, so as long as the process is reasonable, then I can't say I see much wrong with it.

(And as far as the equality bs, I don't see anyone complaining over the fact that we have a similar double standard regarding toplessness in the West...)
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Re: Tight pants ban takes effect in Indonesia's Aceh

Postby Zamfir » Sat May 29, 2010 3:02 pm UTC

yoni45 wrote:I uh... Don't necessarily know that this is all that bad... They're being somewhat reasonable about this, and if they find that in their culture tight pants on a woman constitutes indecent exposure, then so be it. Their behavior regarding the matter seems far from draconian, so as long as the process is reasonable, then I can't say I see much wrong with it.

(And as far as the equality bs, I don't see anyone complaining over the fact that we have a similar double standard regarding toplessness in the West...)


In think you are right that we should be careful before judging other cultures, but there are a few differences.

In the first place, not wearing pants can very restrictive. Look at the original article: the women being arrested were driving motor cycles, in a country where motor cycles and scooters are importants means to get around. Wearing a top does not have a similar level of restriction.

Also, women walking topless is not a crime in many countries, even when those countries frown upon the practice.

And a last point: people worry about this (in Indonesia too), because it is part of a broader trend. If you combine enough reasonbly enacted bans, the result can still be very oppressive.

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Re: Tight pants ban takes effect in Indonesia's Aceh

Postby Gellert1984 » Sat May 29, 2010 3:11 pm UTC

This story makes me think of Annette Kellerman
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Re: Tight pants ban takes effect in Indonesia's Aceh

Postby yoni45 » Sat May 29, 2010 3:37 pm UTC

Zamfir wrote:In the first place, not wearing pants can very restrictive. Look at the original article: the women being arrested were driving motor cycles, in a country where motor cycles and scooters are importants means to get around. Wearing a top does not have a similar level of restriction.


Seems like a bit of a cop-out to me -- I'm pretty sure you can drive a motorcycle or a scooter without much difficulty wearing loose fitting pants.

Zamfir wrote:Also, women walking topless is not a crime in many countries, even when those countries frown upon the practice.


I'm talking about the ones that do, then... =)

Zamfir wrote:And a last point: people worry about this (in Indonesia too), because it is part of a broader trend. If you combine enough reasonbly enacted bans, the result can still be very oppressive.


That's fine -- they're allowed to be worried. Plenty of people worry about laws enacted in Western states. Perhaps this worry will lead to a repeal of the law, perhaps it won't -- that's a normal part of the functioning of a state...
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Re: Tight pants ban takes effect in Indonesia's Aceh

Postby Vaniver » Sat May 29, 2010 4:21 pm UTC

yoni45 wrote:(And as far as the equality bs, I don't see anyone complaining over the fact that we have a similar double standard regarding toplessness in the West...)
Many places in the West do not have a double standard regarding toplessness, specifically because it represents a double standard.

The West: Acts on its principles more than you think.
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Re: Tight pants ban takes effect in Indonesia's Aceh

Postby yoni45 » Sat May 29, 2010 4:40 pm UTC

Vaniver wrote:Many places in the West do not have a double standard regarding toplessness, specifically because it represents a double standard.

The West: Acts on its principles more than you think.


Er, I *just* addressed that in the post right above yours -- the fact that "many" places in the west might not have that double standard has absolutely no bearing on the argument on rests on the fact that "many" do.
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Re: Tight pants ban takes effect in Indonesia's Aceh

Postby Zamfir » Sat May 29, 2010 5:08 pm UTC

yoni45 wrote:
Zamfir wrote:In the first place, not wearing pants can very restrictive. Look at the original article: the women being arrested were driving motor cycles, in a country where motor cycles and scooters are importants means to get around. Wearing a top does not have a similar level of restriction.


Seems like a bit of a cop-out to me -- I'm pretty sure you can drive a motorcycle or a scooter without much difficulty wearing loose fitting pants.


As far as I can tell, the 'tight' part was an addition by The Reaper. The article mentions pants and tight dresses. What's allowed are loose skirts

Assuming you live in western country: look around you and notice how few women never wear pants. Very conservative, devotely religious women who wouldn't dream of showing their legs in public still wear pants. Once wearing pants in public became an acceptable thing to do, pretty much everyone jumped to the opportunity. That should give you an idea that wearing a skirt all the time had serious drawbacks.

yoni45 wrote:
Vaniver wrote:Many places in the West do not have a double standard regarding toplessness, specifically because it represents a double standard.

The West: Acts on its principles more than you think.


Er, I *just* addressed that in the post right above yours -- the fact that "many" places in the west might not have that double standard has absolutely no bearing on the argument on rests on the fact that "many" do.


Do you know a place where they arrest bare-chested women in locations where bare-chested men are not arrested?

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Re: Tight pants ban takes effect in Indonesia's Aceh

Postby Gellert1984 » Sat May 29, 2010 5:22 pm UTC

Zamfir wrote:Do you know a place where they arrest bare-chested women in locations where bare-chested men are not arrested?


Anywhere in the UK thats not:

A: a private residence
B: a nudist beach?
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Re: Tight pants ban takes effect in Indonesia's Aceh

Postby BlackSails » Sat May 29, 2010 6:31 pm UTC

Gellert1984 wrote:
Zamfir wrote:Do you know a place where they arrest bare-chested women in locations where bare-chested men are not arrested?


Anywhere in the UK thats not:

A: a private residence
B: a nudist beach?


Or a strip club.

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Re: Tight pants ban takes effect in Indonesia's Aceh

Postby Ryom » Sat May 29, 2010 8:37 pm UTC

I believe this image is relevant for illustrative purposes:

Spoiler:
Image
Last edited by Ryom on Sun May 30, 2010 1:32 am UTC, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Tight pants ban takes effect in Indonesia's Aceh

Postby Mostly_Harmless » Sat May 29, 2010 10:05 pm UTC

Ryom wrote:I believe this image is relevant for illustrative purposes:

Without that gif I would have had no idea what tight jeans are. Thank you.

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Re: Tight pants ban takes effect in Indonesia's Aceh

Postby Xeio » Sat May 29, 2010 11:27 pm UTC

Ok, that should really be spoilered, hope nobody is reading from work...

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Re: Tight pants ban takes effect in Indonesia's Aceh

Postby Gellert1984 » Sun May 30, 2010 12:00 am UTC

BlackSails wrote:
Or a strip club.


that's arguable I'm not sure stripclub employees neccessarily react well to their patrons stripping off although I admit I lack experience in this department
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Re: Tight pants ban takes effect in Indonesia's Aceh

Postby Steax » Sun May 30, 2010 4:15 am UTC

Aceh is pretty much under their own rule, as Indonesia is trying to give it's regions more autonomy now. I can't really comment on this, as it boggles my mind too. Aceh just has a different level of religious rule in it's traditions.
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Re: Tight pants ban takes effect in Indonesia's Aceh

Postby yoni45 » Sun May 30, 2010 4:25 pm UTC

Zamfir wrote:As far as I can tell, the 'tight' part was an addition by The Reaper. The article mentions pants and tight dresses. What's allowed are loose skirts...


I don't see that it mentions any pants in general -- only jeans specifically (which are generally tight).

Zamfir wrote:Do you know a place where they arrest bare-chested women in locations where bare-chested men are not arrested?


http://news.google.ca/archivesearch?q=i ... lnav=hist7
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Re: Tight pants ban takes effect in Indonesia's Aceh

Postby T-Form » Sun May 30, 2010 11:50 pm UTC

yoni45 wrote:Seems like a bit of a cop-out to me -- I'm pretty sure you can drive a motorcycle or a scooter without much difficulty wearing loose fitting pants.

You can, but loose clothes are more dangerous, especially if you fall.

Zamfir wrote:Also, women walking topless is not a crime in many countries, even when those countries frown upon the practice.


I'm talking about the ones that do, then... =)

All that would show is that some Western countries also have sexist laws. That doesn't make it acceptable.

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Re: Tight pants ban takes effect in Indonesia's Aceh

Postby yoni45 » Mon May 31, 2010 12:58 am UTC

T-Form wrote:You can, but loose clothes are more dangerous, especially if you fall.


Er, that may be an issue with motorcycles, I don't know that it's such an issue with scooters...

(and if really need be, jeans under loose pants/skirt?)

T-form wrote:All that would show is that some Western countries also have sexist laws. That doesn't make it acceptable.


My original statement: "...I don't see anyone complaining over the fact that...".

If you actually take issue with indecent exposure laws in the west on the basis of them being "sexist", I guess your position would be consistent albeit quite silly.

Either way, I'm going by the presumption that we're not actually taking issue with such laws.
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Re: Tight pants ban takes effect in Indonesia's Aceh

Postby 4=5 » Mon May 31, 2010 1:36 am UTC

yoni45 wrote:Either way, I'm going by the presumption that we're not actually taking issue with such laws.

I do take issue with those laws, I know people who got arrested from protesting sexist indecent exposure laws.

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Re: Tight pants ban takes effect in Indonesia's Aceh

Postby Steax » Mon May 31, 2010 1:52 am UTC

yoni45 wrote:
T-Form wrote:You can, but loose clothes are more dangerous, especially if you fall.


Er, that may be an issue with motorcycles, I don't know that it's such an issue with scooters...

(and if really need be, jeans under loose pants/skirt?)


That's the "accepted" solution for most people in Indonesia; some people are bounded by their families to wear long skirts, so many wear jeans under them so they can still do whatever they want comfortably. (Or, if necessary, it takes 30 seconds in a bathroom to take off/put on the skirts.)
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Re: Tight pants ban takes effect in Indonesia's Aceh

Postby yoni45 » Mon May 31, 2010 3:05 am UTC

4=5 wrote:I do take issue with those laws, I know people who got arrested from protesting sexist indecent exposure laws.


That's... nice? I mean, my previous statement stands -- in that case, your position is consistent, albeit one I would consider quite silly.

As far as the people you know -- I'm guessing part of their protest happened to include said indecent exposure, so it sort of makes sense that they'd get arrested (if that's not the case, then your friends' arrests are completely irrelevant to the issue at hand).
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Re: Tight pants ban takes effect in Indonesia's Aceh

Postby T-Form » Mon May 31, 2010 6:56 am UTC

yoni45 wrote:
T-Form wrote:You can, but loose clothes are more dangerous, especially if you fall.


Er, that may be an issue with motorcycles, I don't know that it's such an issue with scooters...

(and if really need be, jeans under loose pants/skirt?)

The safety issue isn't just the durability of the material itself; a loose outer layer is more likely to grip the road, causing you to roll rather than slide. If you slide, it's basically one impact, and after that the clothes (if they're sufficiently tough) get the worst of it. If you roll, it's effectively a series of impacts that, depending on speed, could break bones and probably do nasty things to joints. I'm not certain, but I think you'd also slow down substantially earlier while sliding, so there'd be less danger of a collision. There's also the potential for loose clothes to flap around and create a noisy and/or visual distraction.
T-form wrote:All that would show is that some Western countries also have sexist laws. That doesn't make it acceptable.


My original statement: "...I don't see anyone complaining over the fact that...".

If you actually take issue with indecent exposure laws in the west on the basis of them being "sexist", I guess your position would be consistent albeit quite silly.

Either way, I'm going by the presumption that we're not actually taking issue with such laws.

Well, you've now seen multiple people complaining over precisely that, so you can't make that presumption from a position of honesty. As for silliness, it's pretty clear that these various laws arise from and reinforce a social context in which women and/or female bodies are interpreted as sex objects first and people second (or third, or...), which can be much more harmful than you seem to realise. It's also pretty nasty for anyone who doesn't fit into whatever binary notions of sex/gender the laws are based upon.

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Re: Tight pants ban takes effect in Indonesia's Aceh

Postby Spen » Mon May 31, 2010 8:00 am UTC

And I was hoping this was banning blokes from wearing Skinny Jeans in the UK, no such luck! (That said if you wear skinny jeans you deserve to be clipped round the ear for stupidity!).

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Re: Tight pants ban takes effect in Indonesia's Aceh

Postby Sharlos » Mon May 31, 2010 10:59 am UTC

Spen wrote:And I was hoping this was banning blokes from wearing Skinny Jeans in the UK, no such luck! (That said if you wear skinny jeans you deserve to be clipped round the ear for stupidity!).

Why? I've seen plenty of guys that look cute/hot in skinny jeans.

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Re: Tight pants ban takes effect in Indonesia's Aceh

Postby Hawknc » Mon May 31, 2010 11:07 am UTC

Captain Tightpants is particularly devastated about this news.

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Re: Tight pants ban takes effect in Indonesia's Aceh

Postby Pez Dispens3r » Mon May 31, 2010 11:41 am UTC

Hawknc wrote:Captain Tightpants is particularly devastated about this news.

Wow, never noticed he wore Space-Breeches!TM
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Re: Tight pants ban takes effect in Indonesia's Aceh

Postby GraphiteGirl » Mon May 31, 2010 1:34 pm UTC

yoni45 wrote:Their behavior regarding the matter seems far from draconian

The Reaper, via the article wrote:Each woman was given a long skirt and her pants were confiscated.
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Re: Tight pants ban takes effect in Indonesia's Aceh

Postby Spen » Mon May 31, 2010 4:42 pm UTC

Sharlos wrote:
Spen wrote:And I was hoping this was banning blokes from wearing Skinny Jeans in the UK, no such luck! (That said if you wear skinny jeans you deserve to be clipped round the ear for stupidity!).

Why? I've seen plenty of guys that look cute/hot in skinny jeans.

There are some guys who should NOT wear them though, you must agree on that? One of my friends has a pair of jeans he claims are skinny jeans, they're in fact just too small, I think we're planning to burn them and give him a pair that'll actually fit (he's the sort of guy who goes on 3 or 4 mile runs twice a week and spends free periods in the gym, he's just not the shape for them, not that any of my other friends are either).

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Re: Tight pants ban takes effect in Indonesia's Aceh

Postby yoni45 » Mon May 31, 2010 7:32 pm UTC

T-Form wrote:The safety issue isn't just the durability of the material itself; a loose outer layer is more likely to grip the road, causing you to roll rather than slide...


Citation?

T-Form wrote:Well, you've now seen multiple people complaining over precisely that, so you can't make that presumption from a position of honesty. As for silliness, it's pretty clear that these various laws arise from and reinforce a social context in which women and/or female bodies are interpreted as sex objects first and people second (or third, or...), which can be much more harmful than you seem to realise. It's also pretty nasty for anyone who doesn't fit into whatever binary notions of sex/gender the laws are based upon.


Or, you know, just maybe, it could be a result of the fact that the female body is actually different than that of the male and is seen differently by society. Specific parts of which are considered to be indecent to publicly expose.

A difference the denial of which is, for lack of a better word, silly.

(and fortunately, the issue here isn't dealing with individuals who don't fit into said binary sex/gender roles)
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Re: Tight pants ban takes effect in Indonesia's Aceh

Postby GhostWolfe » Mon May 31, 2010 9:57 pm UTC

Spen wrote:There are some guys who should NOT wear them though, you must agree on that?
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Re: Tight pants ban takes effect in Indonesia's Aceh

Postby roydesoto » Mon May 31, 2010 11:14 pm UTC

. . .
Aceh, a semiautonomous region, made news last year when its provincial parliament passed an Islamic, or Shariah, law making adultery punishable by stoning to death. It also has imposed prison sentences and public lashings for homosexuals . . .
. . .


I am not sure that pants versus dresses is the most important issue here.

If anyone is deluded enough to think that the Indonesians gives a whit about motorbike safety, you haven't seen a family of five all riding on one motor-scooter. Doesn't even ask about helmets.

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Re: Tight pants ban takes effect in Indonesia's Aceh

Postby Steax » Tue Jun 01, 2010 2:49 am UTC

roydesoto wrote:
. . .
Aceh, a semiautonomous region, made news last year when its provincial parliament passed an Islamic, or Shariah, law making adultery punishable by stoning to death. It also has imposed prison sentences and public lashings for homosexuals . . .
. . .


I am not sure that pants versus dresses is the most important issue here.

If anyone is deluded enough to think that the Indonesians gives a whit about motorbike safety, you haven't seen a family of five all riding on one motor-scooter. Doesn't even ask about helmets.


That one kind of depends on where you check. Most big cities have people with proper safety equipment (partially thanks to the government's effort to socialize it, and partly due to the police doing more checks on people), but it is certainly a different situation and villages and the like. You have to see a family of five all riding on one bike while carrying all their belongings with them, making it look more like a bizarre tank on two wheels skidding towards you at 100mph.

On the other hand, people at Aceh don't seem to refute the Shariah laws. And if someone doesn't like it, there's nothing at all stopping them from moving to another province. In Indonesia being otherized by the community is a painful experience. The community means a lot here. If people don't it in, they usually go out and find somewhere they can fit better.
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Re: Tight pants ban takes effect in Indonesia's Aceh

Postby Cmebeh » Tue Jun 01, 2010 3:45 am UTC

We see you trollin'. We hatin'.
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Re: Tight pants ban takes effect in Indonesia's Aceh

Postby achan1058 » Tue Jun 01, 2010 4:52 am UTC

yoni45 wrote:
T-Form wrote:The safety issue isn't just the durability of the material itself; a loose outer layer is more likely to grip the road, causing you to roll rather than slide...


Citation?
Do you really need a citation on this one......? I mean, this is obvious, if you just look at how all metal work, wood work, etc labs ban very loose clothing and articles. (and non tied back long hairs)

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Re: Tight pants ban takes effect in Indonesia's Aceh

Postby Rinsaikeru » Tue Jun 01, 2010 5:12 am UTC

yoni45 wrote:
T-Form wrote:The safety issue isn't just the durability of the material itself; a loose outer layer is more likely to grip the road, causing you to roll rather than slide...


Citation?

T-Form wrote:Well, you've now seen multiple people complaining over precisely that, so you can't make that presumption from a position of honesty. As for silliness, it's pretty clear that these various laws arise from and reinforce a social context in which women and/or female bodies are interpreted as sex objects first and people second (or third, or...), which can be much more harmful than you seem to realise. It's also pretty nasty for anyone who doesn't fit into whatever binary notions of sex/gender the laws are based upon.


Or, you know, just maybe, it could be a result of the fact that the female body is actually different than that of the male and is seen differently by society. Specific parts of which are considered to be indecent to publicly expose.

A difference the denial of which is, for lack of a better word, silly.

(and fortunately, the issue here isn't dealing with individuals who don't fit into said binary sex/gender roles)



What precisely is different about male and female legs? ....Legs are pretty standard. I'd say social obsession with covering/uncovering/deciding what should and should not be covered on the female body is what is silly. Just because there is a social precedent and expectation doesn't mean that that expectation isn't silly/sexist/stupid/wrong/worth being disgusted about.

Riding a bike or motorcycle in a skirt is pretty tricky stuff what with chains/motors etc...or..it is if you'd be scolded for hiking the skirt up....which I presume would happen.
Rice Puddin.


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