Israelian raid on Gaza-bound aid ship kills 10+ people

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Re: Israelian raid on Gaza-bound aid ship kills 10+ people

Postby Diadem » Thu Jun 03, 2010 5:15 pm UTC

aleflamedyud wrote:
Diadem wrote:But by the same logic, Hebron was resettled in 1967 and it's now 2010. That's 43 years. Palestinian claims to the area are void by now.

Well wait a damn second, come on! There are still plenty of Arabs living in Hebron, who have been there since 1929.

Sorry, sorry, that came out wrong. I meant 'Palestinian claims to the areas the jews recolonized in 1967 are void by now'. There's actually very few Jews in Hebron now. But there's plenty (well, a few anyway) of areas of the West-Bank that are almost entirely Jew and have been for a generation. I'm saying that while those areas may have been settled illegally in 1967, that's so long ago by now that deporting the inhabitants is not really a fair solution anymore.
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Re: Israelian raid on Gaza-bound aid ship kills 10+ people

Postby iop » Thu Jun 03, 2010 5:26 pm UTC

Diadem wrote: And colonizing occupied territories is both against international law and wrong.

Since Jordan has ceded the West Bank, it is no longer occupied. Instead, it is 'administred' by Israel. Thus, it's not against international law to build colonies.

nowfocus wrote:If only surrounding Arab nations, which had much larger relative populations and massive amounts of support from the UN, were willing to give Palestinians citizenship we wouldn't be in this mess.

Yep. So Israel can revoke the residency permits of the Palestinians (which it tends to do for those who get citizenship elsewhere) and finally annex the territories.

aleflamedyud wrote:I think that the actual solution to this issue needs to involve both the surrounding Arab states taking some humanitarian responsibility for the Palestinian Arabs and an agreement whereby Israel and newborn Palestine can renegotiate their borders after a requisite period of nonviolence. It's lunacy to suggest that anyone is going to arrive at a "final status" agreement on borders at this point, so the important thing is to "pull a Ben-Gurion" by getting a Palestinian running, taking care of its people, and policing terrorism.

Yes. Or "pull a Rabin", though unfortunately, there is no one on the Palestinian side who has both credibility and influence.

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Re: Israelian raid on Gaza-bound aid ship kills 10+ people

Postby Greyarcher » Thu Jun 03, 2010 5:31 pm UTC

aleflamedyud wrote:As Diadem said, this is Israel we're talking about. They have every incentive to tell the truth simply because every single politico around the world is watching them for the slightest evidence of a lie. Telling the truth is in their self-interest, so the only reason to suppose that they're outright lying is... a belief that the Israeli government are, due to be being either a government or Israeli, congenital liars.
I disagree--the reason I first thought of is that they're covering for a screw up by their soldiers. But I find this implausible for a number of reasons. The two that immediately come to mind are:
1. The level of damage. I can't imagine the soldiers--no matter how stupid--screwing up badly enough to cause the injuries/deaths reported unless the passengers of the ship were, in fact, behaving quite violently themselves.
2. The practicality of lying. Would the government--or military--make up a large amount of BS for a high profile incident like this just to cover for a few soldiers who must have screwed up really, really badly? Seems doubtful. There isn't a strong enough motive to go to such lengths.
(For instance, the PR motive doesn't really work. Israel already gets tons of flak--it wouldn't get significantly worse by declaring that a couple of their soldiers screwed up big time and used excessive force in a situation that didn't warrant it.)

It's far simpler to be suspicious of the passengers of a ship. Their flotilla had a declared intent to break the blockade. Would it really be any surprise if one ship had passengers who were on the extreme/violent end of the spectrum?
Last edited by Greyarcher on Thu Jun 03, 2010 5:39 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Israelian raid on Gaza-bound aid ship kills 10+ people

Postby nowfocus » Thu Jun 03, 2010 5:32 pm UTC

iop wrote:Yep. So Israel can revoke the residency permits of the Palestinians (which it tends to do for those who get citizenship elsewhere) and finally annex the territories.


Basically - just as massive amount of Jewish property was nationalized by Arab countries.

Anyways, more video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qG0EfG8mnAo
It briefly has an angle from above the ship. The naval officer doesn't seem to have a better way to carry out the operation.
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Re: Israelian raid on Gaza-bound aid ship kills 10+ people

Postby Maurog » Thu Jun 03, 2010 5:40 pm UTC

Arete wrote:"Paint ball guns". Am I the only one to find this highly bizarre? Rubber bullets yes; paintball guns? I've seen first hand someone shot at a range of about 2 metres with an entire clip from a paintball gun (not even avoiding 'delicate areas') and the person was still standing & perfectly capable of retaliating.

A Scottish activist from Glasgow confirms paintball guns:
Hasan Nowarah wrote:"On our ship we could hear 'tick, tick, tick, tick' around the body of the ship, but they were not real bullets, it turns out it was paintballing guns they were shooting at us."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/scotland/10210982.stm

The crowd control versions of paintball gun probably have better stopping power than recreational ones somehow, either by shooting the balls at higher velocity or maybe using special balls? I think there are also pepper balls which have the effect of pepper spray when they hit.
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Re: Israelian raid on Gaza-bound aid ship kills 10+ people

Postby scikidus » Thu Jun 03, 2010 5:56 pm UTC

Side note: close-range rubber bullets aren't much less deadly than normal bullets. The soldiers descended onto the deck apparently thinking that they would only need paintball guns as deterrants, with handguns in case of emergency.
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Re: Israelian raid on Gaza-bound aid ship kills 10+ people

Postby aleflamedyud » Thu Jun 03, 2010 6:51 pm UTC

iop wrote:
Diadem wrote: And colonizing occupied territories is both against international law and wrong.

Since Jordan has ceded the West Bank, it is no longer occupied. Instead, it is 'administred' by Israel. Thus, it's not against international law to build colonies.

nowfocus wrote:If only surrounding Arab nations, which had much larger relative populations and massive amounts of support from the UN, were willing to give Palestinians citizenship we wouldn't be in this mess.

Yep. So Israel can revoke the residency permits of the Palestinians (which it tends to do for those who get citizenship elsewhere) and finally annex the territories.

You can call it "occupied" or "administered" or whatever the hell you like. The fundamental fact, however, is that the Arab residents of the West Bank do not have any kind of political self-determination while Israel administers that territory and can scarcely be said to have certain basic civil freedoms such as the freedom of movement.

In an ideal world, the Jordan solution would work. Yes, Jordan's people are majority Palestinian and yes, technically Jordan sits on 76% of the old Mandate of Palestine. So, yes, the Israeli right are correct to say that Jordan == Palestine. However, actually making Jordan accept the Palestinian Arabs from the West Bank and Gaza, or even a fraction thereof sufficient to enable Israel to assimilate the remainder without destroying its Jewish majority, has so far been politically impossible -- particularly without bitching, moaning, and blaming about "ethnic cleansing", never mind that this "ethnic cleansing" would in fact improve everyone's security and living conditions.

So yes, in an ideal universe, the Arab countries would take responsibility for their own people instead of using the Palestinian Arabs as a stick with which to hit Israel. In this world, the only way that would happen is by a forced movement of people, also known as yes, ethnic cleansing. If you've got some way it can be done without such a deed, please let us all know.
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Re: Israelian raid on Gaza-bound aid ship kills 10+ people

Postby Aetius » Thu Jun 03, 2010 7:00 pm UTC

Arete wrote:"Paint ball guns". Am I the only one to find this highly bizarre? Rubber bullets yes; paintball guns? I've seen first hand someone shot at a range of about 2 metres with an entire clip from a paintball gun (not even avoiding 'delicate areas') and the person was still standing & perfectly capable of retaliating. Bruised, but hardly incapacitated. At the very least we'd expect these to be 'militarised' with a little more punch?


Paintball guns aren't designed or intended to incapacitate like a taser would. Their use in crowd control is analogous to a bullwhip. You give someone a very acute pain to back them off. I doubt the Israelis were expecting the level of resistance they encountered.

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Re: Israelian raid on Gaza-bound aid ship kills 10+ people

Postby yoni45 » Thu Jun 03, 2010 7:59 pm UTC

Dream wrote:Not Israeli, IDF...


A nice distinction, but one that does nothing to make your position any less silly. Raw footage is indeed hard data, believe it or not, even if cut.

The fact that you wouldn't consider such hard data to be evidence just because it was released by the idf says more than enough about how rational your outlook on this happens to be.

----

For those doubting the IDF's footage -- when exactly was the last time the IDF released doctored or staged videos or photos? I can think of numerous cases of anti-israeli bodies fabricating events via specifically these means, but none by the IDF...
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Re: Israelian raid on Gaza-bound aid ship kills 10+ people

Postby aleflamedyud » Thu Jun 03, 2010 8:09 pm UTC

yoni45 wrote:
Dream wrote:Not Israeli, IDF...


A nice distinction, but one that does nothing to make your position any less silly. Raw footage is indeed hard data, believe it or not, even if cut.

The fact that you wouldn't consider such hard data to be evidence just because it was released by the idf says more than enough about how rational your outlook on this happens to be.

----

For those doubting the IDF's footage -- when exactly was the last time the IDF released doctored or staged videos or photos? I can think of numerous cases of anti-israeli bodies fabricating events via specifically these means, but none by the IDF...

Speaking of doctored footage, any word out on the lulzy fake-injury photos or videos that were taken in full daylight? I'd like to see whether or not this is just Zionazi propaganda, you know?
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Re: Israelian raid on Gaza-bound aid ship kills 10+ people

Postby JonScholar » Thu Jun 03, 2010 8:10 pm UTC

yoni45 wrote: Raw footage is indeed hard data, believe it or not, even if cut.


You are unbelievable. Even if it is hard data, without context all of these clips are meaningless. We don't know what the precursors to the events in these videos were. We're given some heavily cut videos, and an unverifiable story that loosely correlates with them and we're expected to believe it without question?

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Re: Israelian raid on Gaza-bound aid ship kills 10+ people

Postby BlackSails » Thu Jun 03, 2010 8:11 pm UTC

aleflamedyud wrote:
In an ideal world, the Jordan solution would work. Yes, Jordan's people are majority Palestinian and yes, technically Jordan sits on 76% of the old Mandate of Palestine. So, yes, the Israeli right are correct to say that Jordan == Palestine. However, actually making Jordan accept the Palestinian Arabs from the West Bank and Gaza, or even a fraction thereof sufficient to enable Israel to assimilate the remainder without destroying its Jewish majority, has so far been politically impossible -- particularly without bitching, moaning, and blaming about "ethnic cleansing", never mind that this "ethnic cleansing" would in fact improve everyone's security and living conditions.


Most of the arab world despises Palestinians. They dont want them.

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Re: Israelian raid on Gaza-bound aid ship kills 10+ people

Postby aleflamedyud » Thu Jun 03, 2010 8:21 pm UTC

BlackSails wrote:
aleflamedyud wrote:
In an ideal world, the Jordan solution would work. Yes, Jordan's people are majority Palestinian and yes, technically Jordan sits on 76% of the old Mandate of Palestine. So, yes, the Israeli right are correct to say that Jordan == Palestine. However, actually making Jordan accept the Palestinian Arabs from the West Bank and Gaza, or even a fraction thereof sufficient to enable Israel to assimilate the remainder without destroying its Jewish majority, has so far been politically impossible -- particularly without bitching, moaning, and blaming about "ethnic cleansing", never mind that this "ethnic cleansing" would in fact improve everyone's security and living conditions.


Most of the arab world despises Palestinians. They dont want them.

Most of the Arab world also despises Jews, and somehow that never stopped us.
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Re: Israelian raid on Gaza-bound aid ship kills 10+ people

Postby Dream » Thu Jun 03, 2010 8:26 pm UTC

yoni45 wrote:For those doubting the IDF's footage -- when exactly was the last time the IDF released doctored or staged videos or photos? I can think of numerous cases of anti-israeli bodies fabricating events via specifically these means, but none by the IDF...

What the fuck? When did I allege doctoring of footage? I hate calling out fallacies (even typing that word is hard...) but that is a fucking strawman. I said the footage was brief and edited enough that it didn't prove anything. Doctoring of footage is something you made up yourself. If the IDF has no track record of fabricating video, that doesn't have anything at all to do with a scant few minutes of footage of an operation that by IDF accounts lasted half an hour being selective enough to be useless.
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Re: Israelian raid on Gaza-bound aid ship kills 10+ people

Postby BlackSails » Thu Jun 03, 2010 8:26 pm UTC

aleflamedyud wrote:
BlackSails wrote:
aleflamedyud wrote:
In an ideal world, the Jordan solution would work. Yes, Jordan's people are majority Palestinian and yes, technically Jordan sits on 76% of the old Mandate of Palestine. So, yes, the Israeli right are correct to say that Jordan == Palestine. However, actually making Jordan accept the Palestinian Arabs from the West Bank and Gaza, or even a fraction thereof sufficient to enable Israel to assimilate the remainder without destroying its Jewish majority, has so far been politically impossible -- particularly without bitching, moaning, and blaming about "ethnic cleansing", never mind that this "ethnic cleansing" would in fact improve everyone's security and living conditions.


Most of the arab world despises Palestinians. They dont want them.

Most of the Arab world also despises Jews, and somehow that never stopped us.


Nobody is suggesting the arab world take the jews in.

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Re: Israelian raid on Gaza-bound aid ship kills 10+ people

Postby aleflamedyud » Thu Jun 03, 2010 8:30 pm UTC

BlackSails wrote:
aleflamedyud wrote:
BlackSails wrote:
aleflamedyud wrote:
In an ideal world, the Jordan solution would work. Yes, Jordan's people are majority Palestinian and yes, technically Jordan sits on 76% of the old Mandate of Palestine. So, yes, the Israeli right are correct to say that Jordan == Palestine. However, actually making Jordan accept the Palestinian Arabs from the West Bank and Gaza, or even a fraction thereof sufficient to enable Israel to assimilate the remainder without destroying its Jewish majority, has so far been politically impossible -- particularly without bitching, moaning, and blaming about "ethnic cleansing", never mind that this "ethnic cleansing" would in fact improve everyone's security and living conditions.


Most of the arab world despises Palestinians. They dont want them.

Most of the Arab world also despises Jews, and somehow that never stopped us.


Nobody is suggesting the arab world take the jews in.

Well yeah, but we're suggesting that the Arab world take in some Arabs.
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Re: Israelian raid on Gaza-bound aid ship kills 10+ people

Postby sourmìlk » Thu Jun 03, 2010 9:12 pm UTC

The activists were making a political statement. They never tried to hide this, so stop trying to pretend they did. The whole point of the flotilla, was to draw international attention to Gaza, and to make a political statement through civil disobedience. So yes, they were in fact interested in aiding Gaza. They were doing so by drawing international attention to Israel's draconian blockade on Gaza.


Except that they didn't use civil disobedience. They used outright violence. When the Israelis boarded their ship, they responded with extreme violence. The Israelis told them they would board the ship, and came on with riot gear, not even lethal weapons except emergency handguns. The flotilla's response is in no way civil disobedience.
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Re: Israelian raid on Gaza-bound aid ship kills 10+ people

Postby yoni45 » Thu Jun 03, 2010 9:17 pm UTC

Dream wrote:What the fuck? When did I allege doctoring of footage? I hate calling out fallacies...


Good -- I'll save you the trouble then. That part clearly wasn't denoted for you, both by virtue of the fact that I separated it from my response to you, and by virtue of the fact that it started with "for those of you...".
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Re: Israelian raid on Gaza-bound aid ship kills 10+ people

Postby Dream » Thu Jun 03, 2010 9:35 pm UTC

yoni45 wrote:
Dream wrote:What the fuck? When did I allege doctoring of footage? I hate calling out fallacies...


Good -- I'll save you the trouble then. That part clearly wasn't denoted for you, both by virtue of the fact that I separated it from my response to you, and by virtue of the fact that it started with "for those of you...".

I'm one of those doubting the IDF's footage. It seems you think I shouldn't because they haven't outright faked footage in the past, but that makes no sense. I can doubt it, as I do, because it is edited so heavily. Your post is still a strawman, because it introduces a version of the position of your opponents that they never advanced, and by demonstrating it to be faulty seeks to prove that those opponents are incorrect.
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Re: Israelian raid on Gaza-bound aid ship kills 10+ people

Postby sourmìlk » Thu Jun 03, 2010 10:11 pm UTC

Dream wrote:
yoni45 wrote:
Dream wrote:What the fuck? When did I allege doctoring of footage? I hate calling out fallacies...


Good -- I'll save you the trouble then. That part clearly wasn't denoted for you, both by virtue of the fact that I separated it from my response to you, and by virtue of the fact that it started with "for those of you...".

I'm one of those doubting the IDF's footage. It seems you think I shouldn't because they haven't outright faked footage in the past, but that makes no sense. I can doubt it, as I do, because it is edited so heavily. Your post is still a strawman, because it introduces a version of the position of your opponents that they never advanced, and by demonstrating it to be faulty seeks to prove that those opponents are incorrect.


No cuts were made in any of the footage. Your assumption that it's doctored is unreasonable, both based on past events and logical analysis of the current videos.
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Re: Israelian raid on Gaza-bound aid ship kills 10+ people

Postby Dream » Thu Jun 03, 2010 10:17 pm UTC

sourmìlk wrote:No cuts were made in any of the footage. Your assumption that it's doctored

Please, somebody tell me I'm not the only one who finds this baffling...
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Re: Israelian raid on Gaza-bound aid ship kills 10+ people

Postby da_monkey » Thu Jun 03, 2010 10:22 pm UTC

there are far more effective way to remove ships you don't want with out creating as much political kick back.
also far more effective than sending people onto ships full of aggressive hostile people who happen to be very pissed of with your country in heavy riot gear and paint bull guns as weapons.

personally i believe Israel did what they had to do.
a terrorist organization regularly conducts bombings and attacks on Israel.
this organization has ties with the government and is heavily rooted in the population. in order to remove the threat Israel cant rely in on the Palestine authorities. in order to prevent explosives and weapons from reaching this group searching several ships which have relaxed regulations as to there cargo and people on board is perfectly acceptable.(when was the last time you joined an aid organization and had a background cheek done)
As long as that's all it is.
unfortunately this incident can not reflect on Israel since there was clearly violence carried out against the Israeli troops that
boarded those ships and one thrown over board if you know any thing about serch and rescue at sea you would be willing to shot people to stop that hapening.
since nether party will be trusted as a hole (the protesters because they need to learn what self control is and the IDF because there Israeli. I hate to put it like this but that's the way it is they have been reliable sources in the past yes a bit of spin doctoring but who doesn't do that and yet for some reason there not trust worthy) we can not draw conclusions as to who instigated the violence.
as such any country that takes actions against Israel will only serve to increase the violence against Israel rather than solve the problem which is two groups have been wronged by each other and as such there defensive actions are perfectly valid yet only serve to inflame the situation.
so rather than pointing the finger at one of the country as soon as something goes wrong and saying oohhh how bad they are. because I'm sure you did the same to Palestine when they conducted week long rocket attacks on Israel. look at the facts israel has been around for coming up to 100 years and for the entire time Palestine has been a major security risk and the current government has probably had friends or family killed in these attacks. the same is true for Palestine. now one country uses an official unit clearly supported by the government while the other resorts to a terrorist organization. political pressure can make the IDF stop but no amount of pull form the Palestine government can stop Hezbollah which are heavily rooted in there society.
stopping this organization is a feat that will require co-operation from all parties involved this include Britain and America.
yet the only action from these two country's has been to lay the blame on one of the two country's whos entire populous has grown up with this conflict.
stop pointing the finger at people trying to save there fellow country men and ask what can be done to make it so they don't have to.(damn this sounds very pro israel i cant find a way to word it so that its not basically both party's have a point but due to the nature of people its gone down hill fast and nether party has the power to stop it now. and should not be expected to turn the other cheek to indiscriminate attacks or incursion of authority)
(sorry about length started replying and got put into rant mode)

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Re: Israelian raid on Gaza-bound aid ship kills 10+ people

Postby aleflamedyud » Thu Jun 03, 2010 10:50 pm UTC

sourmìlk wrote:
The activists were making a political statement. They never tried to hide this, so stop trying to pretend they did. The whole point of the flotilla, was to draw international attention to Gaza, and to make a political statement through civil disobedience. So yes, they were in fact interested in aiding Gaza. They were doing so by drawing international attention to Israel's draconian blockade on Gaza.


Except that they didn't use civil disobedience. They used outright violence. When the Israelis boarded their ship, they responded with extreme violence. The Israelis told them they would board the ship, and came on with riot gear, not even lethal weapons except emergency handguns. The flotilla's response is in no way civil disobedience.

Reminder: even if you think that the people on that boat had a right to defend themselves, doing so with violence still violates the principles of civil disobedience on which modern civilian activism is founded. Once you get violent, you go from civilian activists to "rioters" at best, "wannabe revolutionaries" if you actually had a coherent plan for the use of violence, and "terrorists" if the media doesn't like you.
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Re: Israelian raid on Gaza-bound aid ship kills 10+ people

Postby Adamah » Thu Jun 03, 2010 11:29 pm UTC

Iv wrote:
Adamah wrote:So Israel sees this, and it thinks - will we become one of these atrocities that the world turns a blind eye to? If the armies of the Arab world coming marching through our borders 50 years from now, as they've done multiple times already, will the UN condemn us again and watch Tel-Aviv burn? In Israel's view, the only safety it can rely on is the safety it can give itself. That's why it holds onto the territories still - because it is afraid to let go. If you lived in a country 15 kilometers wide, where a sniper across the border could shoot anyone walking around the streets of the capital (and where quite a few Palestinians would happily try to), where your neighbors sing songs about how they will conquer your land, and where they've actually tried to several times in the recent past, you'd be scared too. Many on the far right in Israel see this whole conflict as one long war that started in 1948, and handing over the territories as the equivalent of a retreat.
Then here is a question about a thing I don't get. Why don't you just conquer or at least occupy these lands ? Why don't you offer Palestinians the Israeli nationality and have your own police force, your own laws and you own militaries on these territories ? What most people suspect without really saying it is that you look like you want these territories, but that it would be more convenient for you if all the people currently living on them just died.

Because there are 2 million Arabs in the West Bank, another 1.5 million in the Gaza Strip, and another 1.5 million in Israel compared to 6 million Jews. Plus, the Arabs have a much higher birth rate, especially in Gaza, where they have possibly the highest population growth rate in the world. Israel need only look over the border at Lebanon to see how dysfunctional a binational state can be. Idealism aside, a one-state solution would lead to civil war and probably genocide. To put it another way - imagine trying to absorb 40 million radical Muslims into France.

Yes, Israel would like the territories if there weren't Arabs in them, but that doesn't mean they are going to kill them or drive them out. As I explained before, Israel is quite happy with what it has - a prosperous self-ruled state in control of Jerusalem - and would gladly give up the territories for peace.

Iv wrote:
Adamah wrote:Any Muslim leader looking for a boost in popularity need only attack Israel and they'll be cheered. And anyone who thinks this is because of the occupation is naive. It is because of Israel itself, a Jewish state where Muslims once had control.
This is an opinion I simply disagree with. Were this true, Spain would be a target similar to Israel.

And some radicals speak of one day reconquering Spain. But Spain is on the periphery of the Islamic world, Israel is wedged in the middle dividing it. Spain was controlled by Muslims 800 years ago, Israel only 60 years ago (or 100 depending on what you consider control). Spain is strong, large, has a big population, and is well integrated into Europe. Israel is tiny, has a small population, and is pretty isolated. Another way to think about it - imagine if a bunch of radical Muslims migrated to Luxembourg and established an Islamist state there. How do you think most Europeans would feel about that?

Iv wrote:
Adamah wrote:But they look across the aisle and see Palestinians who want them dead. These are the people they should lift a blockade on? The ones who just a couple years ago launched thousands of rockets at us, and have said they will do it again?
And that is the root of your problem : Israelian look at Palestinian and they only see the extremists who build rockets, they don't see the many civilians who just want peace. And when Palestinians look at Israel they only see settlers and fanatics as well and war criminal. They dismiss the idea that rockets can hit children and civilians.
No, they are quite happy to hit children and civilians. To them, children will grow up and become soldiers. To them, civilians just support the Israeli economy, produce more tanks, and give birth to more children who become soldiers. There are no innocents in Israel to them, except maybe Israeli Arabs. That's why terrorists like Samir Kuntar, who killed a 4-year-old Israeli child, among others, by smashing his head into a rock, receive applause from many in the Muslim world. Indeed, he was greeted as a hero after Israel's prisoner exchange deal with Lebanon set him free. That's definitely one thing the West doesn't understand - to groups like Hamas and Hezbollah, there are no civilians.

Iv wrote:
Adamah wrote:If you want to see progress toward peace, start giving Israel the guarantee of security that it needs in order to make the tough decisions that will lead to peace. Stop the calls for boycott and divestment.
No government did that.
No Western government. But anyway, plenty of Europeans have still called for boycotts and divestment and, possibly even worse, academic exclusion: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Academic_b ... _of_Israel

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Re: Israelian raid on Gaza-bound aid ship kills 10+ people

Postby sourmìlk » Thu Jun 03, 2010 11:50 pm UTC

And that is the root of your problem : Israelian look at Palestinian and they only see the extremists who build rockets, they don't see the many civilians who just want peace. And when Palestinians look at Israel they only see settlers and fanatics as well and war criminal. They dismiss the idea that rockets can hit children and civilians.


You're wrong. Hamas aims the rockets specifically at schools and hospitals and things like that. Israel takes extreme care when going after Hamas. If they didn't care who they killed, all of Gaza would be wiped out by now. Israel is obviously showing restraint: if they weren't, a couple F-15's could get rid of Hamas without a problem.
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Re: Israelian raid on Gaza-bound aid ship kills 10+ people

Postby BlackSails » Fri Jun 04, 2010 12:33 am UTC

In case anyone is wondering THIS is what civil disobediance looks like. Notice the lack of return fire, the mob beatings of the british army and the hurling of british soldiers over 30 ft ledges.

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Re: Israelian raid on Gaza-bound aid ship kills 10+ people

Postby Silas » Fri Jun 04, 2010 12:35 am UTC

sourmìlk wrote:Hamas aims the rockets specifically at schools and hospitals and things like that.

Hamas doesn't have (more than a couple) rockets that can be aimed with anything close to that level of precision (what few they may have, they're holding in reserve). I don't see how you can meaningfully say that rockets that typically fall in the desert are aimed at anything smaller than a country.
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Re: Israelian raid on Gaza-bound aid ship kills 10+ people

Postby BlackSails » Fri Jun 04, 2010 12:43 am UTC

Silas wrote:
sourmìlk wrote:Hamas aims the rockets specifically at schools and hospitals and things like that.

Hamas doesn't have (more than a couple) rockets that can be aimed with anything close to that level of precision (what few they may have, they're holding in reserve).


That just is not true.

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Re: Israelian raid on Gaza-bound aid ship kills 10+ people

Postby aleflamedyud » Fri Jun 04, 2010 2:25 am UTC

BlackSails wrote:
Silas wrote:
sourmìlk wrote:Hamas aims the rockets specifically at schools and hospitals and things like that.

Hamas doesn't have (more than a couple) rockets that can be aimed with anything close to that level of precision (what few they may have, they're holding in reserve).


That just is not true.

To elaborate, Hamas was at the "can't aim" state of arms when they began the rocket attacks against Israel in 2006-2007-ish. By the time of the 2009 Gaza War, they had rockets that could accurately hit Ashdod and Ashqelon, many kilometers away from Gaza. From what I've heard, they may by now have rockets that can do to Tel-Aviv and Jerusalem what they did before to Ashdod and Ashqelon.
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Re: Israelian raid on Gaza-bound aid ship kills 10+ people

Postby Silas » Fri Jun 04, 2010 4:10 am UTC

Right, but we're still talking about targets the size of "Ashkelon" not "Ben Gurion High School." I'll admit that the bit about "no target smaller than a country" was hyperbole, but the Katyusha-type rockets Hamas has been able to acquire still aren't precision weapons, especially when they're fired from the man-portable launchers Hamas can deploy.

Also like I said, the relatively few such rockets they do have, they're holding in reserve for times like Cast Lead.
Last edited by Silas on Fri Jun 04, 2010 4:22 am UTC, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Israelian raid on Gaza-bound aid ship kills 10+ people

Postby sourmìlk » Fri Jun 04, 2010 4:22 am UTC

Silas wrote:Right, but we're still talking about targets the size of "Ashkelon and its vicinity" not "Ben Gurion High School." I'll admit that the bit about "no target smaller than a country" was hyperbole, but the Katyusha-type rockets Hamas has been able to acquire still aren't precision weapons, especially when they're fired from the man-portable launchers Hamas has.

Also like I said, the relatively few such rockets they do have, they're holding in reserve for times like Cast Lead.


And again this isn't true. Or maybe it's just coincidence that out of all the area in the cities they aim at they keep hitting things like hospitals and schools.

It's no secret that Hamas has malicious intent when firing rockets: they aren't doing it because they want freedom, they might get that if they stopped firing rockets.

I think they share the same mindset as the leader of Hezbollah, who said approximately this: "I wish all the Jews would move to Israel so that I didn't have to hunt down each one."
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Re: Israelian raid on Gaza-bound aid ship kills 10+ people

Postby yoni45 » Fri Jun 04, 2010 4:27 am UTC

Dream wrote:I'm one of those doubting the IDF's footage. It seems you think I shouldn't because they haven't outright faked footage in the past, but that makes no sense...


It does if you understand what it means to 'doubt the footage', which is that you question the truth of what the footage actually portrays.

Dream wrote:Your post is still a strawman, because it introduces a version of the position of your opponents that they never advanced...


Try reading the thread a bit more closely (ie, Arete's posts on page 6).
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Re: Israelian raid on Gaza-bound aid ship kills 10+ people

Postby sourmìlk » Fri Jun 04, 2010 4:29 am UTC

yoni45 wrote:
Dream wrote:I'm one of those doubting the IDF's footage. It seems you think I shouldn't because they haven't outright faked footage in the past, but that makes no sense...


It does if you understand what it means to 'doubt the footage', which is that you question the truth of what the footage actually portrays.

Dream wrote:Your post is still a strawman, because it introduces a version of the position of your opponents that they never advanced...


Try reading the thread a bit more closely (ie, Arete's posts on page 6).


To Dream: Not having faked footage in the past seems like a reasonably good reason to believe them: you have to go on what their actions have been, otherwise anything could happen.

To Yoni: I think that the person though that the attack was directed at specifically him, and not all people on one side of the debate. That is to say the person thought he was being attacked specifically.
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Re: Israelian raid on Gaza-bound aid ship kills 10+ people

Postby yoni45 » Fri Jun 04, 2010 4:34 am UTC

Silas wrote:Right, but we're still talking about targets the size of "Ashkelon" not "Ben Gurion High School." I'll admit that the bit about "no target smaller than a country" was hyperbole, but the Katyusha-type rockets Hamas has been able to acquire still aren't precision weapons, especially when they're fired from the man-portable launchers Hamas can deploy.


That's definitely true -- it is worth noting, though, that attack times generally seem to be during civilian rush hours.
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Re: Israelian raid on Gaza-bound aid ship kills 10+ people

Postby sourmìlk » Fri Jun 04, 2010 4:51 am UTC

yoni45 wrote:
Silas wrote:Right, but we're still talking about targets the size of "Ashkelon" not "Ben Gurion High School." I'll admit that the bit about "no target smaller than a country" was hyperbole, but the Katyusha-type rockets Hamas has been able to acquire still aren't precision weapons, especially when they're fired from the man-portable launchers Hamas can deploy.


That's definitely true -- it is worth noting, though, that attack times generally seem to be during civilian rush hours.


Like I said, it's no secret that the intention of Hamas is to kill as many Jews as possible.

let me back that up with a quote

Hamas communiqué, October 5, 1988, translated and distributed in the U.S. by the Islamic Association for Palestine wrote:"The Jews: killed the prophets…slaughtered the innocent…imprisoned our pious... NO PEACE WITH THE MURDERERS."
Terry Pratchett wrote:The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it.

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Re: Israelian raid on Gaza-bound aid ship kills 10+ people

Postby RockoTDF » Fri Jun 04, 2010 5:20 am UTC

sourmìlk wrote:
And that is the root of your problem : Israelian look at Palestinian and they only see the extremists who build rockets, they don't see the many civilians who just want peace. And when Palestinians look at Israel they only see settlers and fanatics as well and war criminal. They dismiss the idea that rockets can hit children and civilians.


You're wrong. Hamas aims the rockets specifically at schools and hospitals and things like that. Israel takes extreme care when going after Hamas. If they didn't care who they killed, all of Gaza would be wiped out by now. Israel is obviously showing restraint: if they weren't, a couple F-15's could get rid of Hamas without a problem.


I'll echo the sentiment that most rockets can't hit a target as precise as a hospital miles away. And I'll also add that the types of F-15s flown by the IDF (F-15A/C) are air superiority fighters and not fighter bombers (F-15E), and therefore wouldn't be the ones to do such a thing. But that is just my inner air force brat being pendantic and isn't really relevant to the conversation. Just a bit of useful trivia.

sourmìlk wrote:
Like I said, it's no secret that the intention of Hamas is to kill as many Jews as possible.

let me back that up with a quote

Hamas communiqué, October 5, 1988, translated and distributed in the U.S. by the Islamic Association for Palestine wrote:"The Jews: killed the prophets…slaughtered the innocent…imprisoned our pious... NO PEACE WITH THE MURDERERS."


I'm sure that many other terrorist groups in the past said similar things about their enemies and then later sorted things out peacefully, or at least tried to. Quoting a 20+ year old communique (albeit one that is probably still agreed upon by Hamas) isn't really going to help.

Dream wrote:
sourmìlk wrote:No cuts were made in any of the footage. Your assumption that it's doctored

Please, somebody tell me I'm not the only one who finds this baffling...


I find it baffling too, provided that you two are talking about the same thing and there isn't some kind of misunderstanding or language barrier since this is a very international forum. I think sourmilk is trying to say that the video isn't fake footage (which it probably isn't) and Dream is trying to say that because the video is incomplete and only shows what Israel wants us to see that it is unreliable.

To play the Devil's advocate, if the IDF released everything they had (including stuff shot by the protesters) on Youtube and to the news media I think it would answer a lot of questions about what happened. It is possible they won't do this because of possible criminal actions or because it might generate more sympathy for the activists. I'm really curious as to how one protester wound up with four bullets in the head and one in the chest - something that seems very fishy to me, much more so than four in the chest and one in the head.
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Re: Israelian raid on Gaza-bound aid ship kills 10+ people

Postby sourmìlk » Fri Jun 04, 2010 5:34 am UTC

RockoTDF wrote:
sourmìlk wrote:
And that is the root of your problem : Israelian look at Palestinian and they only see the extremists who build rockets, they don't see the many civilians who just want peace. And when Palestinians look at Israel they only see settlers and fanatics as well and war criminal. They dismiss the idea that rockets can hit children and civilians.


You're wrong. Hamas aims the rockets specifically at schools and hospitals and things like that. Israel takes extreme care when going after Hamas. If they didn't care who they killed, all of Gaza would be wiped out by now. Israel is obviously showing restraint: if they weren't, a couple F-15's could get rid of Hamas without a problem.


I'll echo the sentiment that most rockets can't hit a target as precise as a hospital miles away. And I'll also add that the types of F-15s flown by the IDF (F-15A/C) are air superiority fighters and not fighter bombers (F-15E), and therefore wouldn't be the ones to do such a thing. But that is just my inner air force brat being pendantic and isn't really relevant to the conversation. Just a bit of useful trivia.

sourmìlk wrote:
Like I said, it's no secret that the intention of Hamas is to kill as many Jews as possible.

let me back that up with a quote

Hamas communiqué, October 5, 1988, translated and distributed in the U.S. by the Islamic Association for Palestine wrote:"The Jews: killed the prophets…slaughtered the innocent…imprisoned our pious... NO PEACE WITH THE MURDERERS."


I'm sure that many other terrorist groups in the past said similar things about their enemies and then later sorted things out peacefully, or at least tried to. Quoting a 20+ year old communique (albeit one that is probably still agreed upon by Hamas) isn't really going to help.

Dream wrote:
sourmìlk wrote:No cuts were made in any of the footage. Your assumption that it's doctored

Please, somebody tell me I'm not the only one who finds this baffling...


I find it baffling too, provided that you two are talking about the same thing and there isn't some kind of misunderstanding or language barrier since this is a very international forum. I think sourmilk is trying to say that the video isn't fake footage (which it probably isn't) and Dream is trying to say that because the video is incomplete and only shows what Israel wants us to see that it is unreliable.



Yeah, I was trying to deal with two similar arguments at once, it came out weird.

Also, let me get a newer quote.

"...the Jewish faith does not wish for peace nor stability, since it is a faith that is based on murder: 'I kill, therefore I am'... Israel is based only on blood and murder in order to exist, and it will disappear, with Allah's will, through blood and Shahids [martyrs]."
(Dr. Yussuf Al-Sharafi, Hamas representative, April 12, 2007; as reported by Palestinian Media Watch, April 23, 2007)
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Re: Israelian raid on Gaza-bound aid ship kills 10+ people

Postby aleflamedyud » Fri Jun 04, 2010 6:03 am UTC

Great, so Hamas are genocidal, fascist bastards, who also don't hold to their agreements (since the will of God is more important than what you said to some Jew). Everyone knows that. The question is what can be done about them.
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Re: Israelian raid on Gaza-bound aid ship kills 10+ people

Postby Jahoclave » Fri Jun 04, 2010 7:02 am UTC

BlackSails wrote:In case anyone is wondering THIS is what civil disobediance looks like. Notice the lack of return fire, the mob beatings of the british army and the hurling of british soldiers over 30 ft ledges.

Well that's just because Gandhi was a pussy. Real civil disobedience involves dumping tea and then fighting a huge war against the dominate super-power of the day and then maintaining that your shit don't stink for the next few hundred years.

As far as I can tell, the big problem is that the Israeli's neglected to inform the flotilla that they were going to be having a huge open water paintball match. Ergo, the activists didn't know that once they got shot they were out and subsequently didn't have the proper equipment to play.

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Re: Israelian raid on Gaza-bound aid ship kills 10+ people

Postby Arete » Fri Jun 04, 2010 8:00 am UTC

aleflamedyud wrote:I can't judge if the raw, uncut footage shows a camel. I haven't seen it. I've seen what's been released, same as you.



Oops.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0LulDJh4fWI

This is the "raw footage" released by the IDF / IFM: watch it carefully: at 1:01 - 1:05 a CAMEL RUNS PAST A SOLDIER WIELDING A PAINTBALL GUN.... ON A BOAT 80+ NAUTICAL MILES FROM SHORE. You'll also noticed at 1:05 a very poorly done jump-cut that deletes said camel from the action.


I ask again. Given the materials this ship were carrying were "construction", does this include camels?




aleflamedyud wrote: However, here's the thing: the IDF doesn't have to be independent or unbiased to release video footage, just not outright Elders-of-Zion-style liars. They could well have edited bits out, such as one with a camel, but that wouldn't affect the veracity of what they do release.


Well, I'm with Occam on this one. The likelihood of a stray roaming CAMEL on board a ship I find very hard to swallow. Occam's razor suggests that, perhaps, this footage has been composed somewhere. Cut / Paste.

Of course, I could be wrong. There could have been live camels lose on deck during the assault. Probably not though.


aleflamedyud wrote:But tell me, if the IDF has a professional and dedicated unit for faking video footage, why are they terminally incompetent at performing any other kind of PR task? This is sounding like simple anti-Israel, or at least anti-government, prejudice. Israel released footage, from both their cameras and the boat's cameras, that corroborates their story. You say that their story remains uncorroborated because the Israeli government are congenital liars who just make things up. Great.



You're very good at strawmen, you know that?

Simple question - please find me a rational reason and / or cargo manifest that lists CAMELS as part of the aid cargo, and I might think that this hasn't been in any way doctored. Until then, you've a "smoking camel" to contend with. Diverting this conversation into "potted history of a miserable place on earth that people fight over" is a smoke screen. I want answers about the camel: you've claimed that the IDF footage shows a true account of what happened, so I'd like to know where / when / why this camel got involved in the fight.


p.s. I'm not the only one who has noticed the camel.


It is also a matter of record that Israeli forces were more than likely involved in sabotaging boats before they even left port:
Matan Vilnai, the deputy defence minister, was asked on Israel Radio whether there had not been a smarter alternative to direct assault. He answered that "all possibilities had been considered," adding: "The fact is that there were less than the 10 ships that were due to participate in the flotilla.The comments appeared to dovetail with reports that two of the vessels malfunctioned at the same time and in the same way. Challenger I and Challenger II, carrying 36 activists, were forced into port in Cyprus on Friday evening when steering systems on both ships broke down on the passage from Heraklion in Crete, a campaign spokeswoman said. Challenger II also started taking on water after the bilge pump suddenly stopped working and an inspection yesterday revealed "very suspicious" faults, according to Greta Berlin, a spokeswoman for Free Gaza."
.


This means two things:

a) Covert OPs
b) Covert Operatives within activists (given sabotage happened at sea)

Hardly edifying, is it?


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