Israelian raid on Gaza-bound aid ship kills 10+ people

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Re: Israelian raid on Gaza-bound aid ship kills 10+ people

Postby Izawwlgood » Fri Jun 04, 2010 8:58 am UTC

Can you be very specific where you are seeing this camel? I've watched the video a few times and have not seen what you are claiming.

Jahoclave wrote:As far as I can tell, the big problem is that the Israeli's neglected to inform the flotilla that they were going to be having a huge open water paintball match. Ergo, the activists didn't know that once they got shot they were out and subsequently didn't have the proper equipment to play.

They were warned.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qKOmLP4yHb4

And activists didn't know... Why did the other 5 boat boardings go along peacefully?
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Re: Israelian raid on Gaza-bound aid ship kills 10+ people

Postby Dream » Fri Jun 04, 2010 9:41 am UTC

There were far fewer people on the other boats, like more than ten times fewer. They weren't a crowd control situation, they didn't have as much chance of having hot headed fools on board, and presumably sufficient IDF forces were deployed to control the situation. Each of these contributed in a significant way to the Mavi Marmara debacle.
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Re: Israelian raid on Gaza-bound aid ship kills 10+ people

Postby el_loco_avs » Fri Jun 04, 2010 10:33 am UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:Can you be very specific where you are seeing this camel? I've watched the video a few times and have not seen what you are claiming.


Took me a while to see it. But it's there.

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Re: Israelian raid on Gaza-bound aid ship kills 10+ people

Postby yedidyak » Fri Jun 04, 2010 10:38 am UTC

There is no way that that is a camel. This video was taken with a military thermal camera, set to black heat. Ive used these, and know how they work. A camel would show up as dark black, not white. Unless you are suggesting its a cold blooded camel with a body temperature matching the night sky? And dont say its a reflection of something white, thats not how these cameras work.

What this object is Im not sure, but it must be a non-organic object sen from a strange angle.

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Re: Israelian raid on Gaza-bound aid ship kills 10+ people

Postby Diadem » Fri Jun 04, 2010 12:28 pm UTC

Arete wrote:You're very good at strawmen, you know that?

Funny how you accuse someone of strawmanning while you've been going on about that camel for a few pages now.

You can clearly see someone violently throw back about 2 seconds before this 'camel' (at 1.01). Someone wearing something white (ie: cold). You then see him get up, he disappears behind someone and immidiately reappears as a camel. This is all in the same shot. Unless he shapeshifted, I'm going to go with the 'weird camera angle' theory.
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Re: Israelian raid on Gaza-bound aid ship kills 10+ people

Postby BlackSails » Fri Jun 04, 2010 1:17 pm UTC

Its a mossad robot camel, obviously. They used it to sneak israeli commandos on board to stage a riot.


Anyway, when the turkish navy escorts the ships (as they are claiming they will do), they do realize that it is a clear and obvious act of war for turkish naval vessels to enter the territorial waters of Israel, right?

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Re: Israelian raid on Gaza-bound aid ship kills 10+ people

Postby Maurog » Fri Jun 04, 2010 1:20 pm UTC

It's not a camel, it's a guy wearing the whatever thing the other activists wear. If you notice, their heads show as bold black while their clothes show as grey.
Watching the footage very carefully, there is a guy right on the left to the paintball gun soldier who moves to the right.
Image

Then moves left again.
Image

And as he passes the soldier he turns into a "camel". Which is really a guy holding a stick. He is almost fully grey because his arms are near-completely obscuring his head. The little part of the head visible is black, as is the stick.
Image

I hope Occam's razor agrees that it's likely there have been a guy with a stick somewhere on that ship, eh.
Last edited by Maurog on Fri Jun 04, 2010 1:30 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Israelian raid on Gaza-bound aid ship kills 10+ people

Postby zombie_monkey » Fri Jun 04, 2010 1:29 pm UTC

Things are really going south in Turkey... The lawyer that represents the family of Hrant Dink, ethnic Armenian Turkish journalist who was killed by ultranationalists, has also been found murdered.

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Re: Israelian raid on Gaza-bound aid ship kills 10+ people

Postby Arete » Fri Jun 04, 2010 2:24 pm UTC

Diadem wrote:Funny how you accuse someone of strawmanning while you've been going on about that camel for a few pages now.

You can clearly see someone violently throw back about 2 seconds before this 'camel' (at 1.01). Someone wearing something white (ie: cold). You then see him get up, he disappears behind someone and immidiately reappears as a camel. This is all in the same shot. Unless he shapeshifted, I'm going to go with the 'weird camera angle' theory.


Arguing that suggesting IDF / IFM sources are not objective = this means "zionist liars" "zionazis" is a strawman argument.

Genuinely thinking you've seen a camel in grainy night vision footage and then asking about it, receiving a convincing counter-argument (most likely - the guy throwing a life jacket off / at the soldiers having been thrown on the ground), then accepting that there's no camel = how critical functions work. Taking grainy video from an non-objective source as Truth = non-critical thought.

Thesis: There's a camel!! Explain this!!
Antithesis: Its not a camel, for these reasons.
Synthesis: Ahh, Its not a camel, however it sure looks like one if you don't know about reverse heat infrared cameras!

For the record - there's already a few websites out there a) pointing out the camel and b) the more radical ones (aka people who do use the words "Zionazi" seriously) are suggesting it is faked. Kinda why I brought the whole camel thing in, really. Meta-debate *shrug*. I was making a point about sources, and so forth. More damagingly, some serious outlets are suggesting that at least one of the videos has been faked.

More information:

1) http://www.bernama.com/bernama/v5/newsworld.php?id=502990 : Journalist reports she was tasered. Not just paintball guns?
2) http://warincontext.org/2010/05/28/israels-botched-propaganda-on-life-in-gaza/ Yes, the IDF / IFM do produce bad propoganda and fake stuff! (shock, horror)
3) http://seminal.firedoglake.com/diary/52394 Internet sensationalist claims Israel's weapons-on-board pictures are doctored, since disproved, but this is all part of the muddied' water. For the record, the "weapons" aren't particularly military, and the "bulletproof vests" do indeed seem to be for the Red Crescent, who do get fired upon by Israel forces (citations can be provided for this). However, this is not to say the opposite doesn't happen - http://www.zombietime.com/fraud/ambulance/ for a site outlining what it thinks are anti-Israeli media manipulations in the past.
4) http://rawstory.com/rs/2010/0531/raw-video-reporter-claims-israelis-fired-activists-boarding-ship/
“We are being hit by tear gas, stun grenades, we have navy ships on either side, helicopters overhead,” he said. “We are being attacked from every single side. This is in international waters, not Israeli waters, not in the 68-mile exclusion zone. We are being attacked in international waters completely illegally.”

“The organizers are telling me now, they are raising a white flag — they are raising a white flag to the Israeli army,” the Al Jazeera reporter said. “This is after one person has been killed; a civilian has been killed by munition. That number could be more … Despite the white flag being raised, despite the white flag being raised, the Israeli army is still shooting, still firing live munitions.”
. Obviously, the very name "Al Jazeera" to some suggests bias and non-objective reporting. However, the raw video seems to be reportage at the time, and it'd be an odd one to claim such things if the backing track was all quiet.


To make a non-strawman argument, as I did in my first post:
Stupidity from both sides, however I've a feeling the situation isn't as black and white as is being portrayed here by some posters.



Back to the topic - I'd really like to see the whole video log. And a bit more suspicion of both sides: we're living in a media age, aren't we?

(As a personal note - I'd really like the entire geopolitical zone to stop acting like solipsistic children all vying for the 'worst victim' status while throwing tantrums, and sort it out. The Middle East is one permanent blotch on the idea of Human Progress and mixes in the worst attributes of humanity to boot. As a personal note, I wouldn't view it as a major loss to humanity if the entire area was turned into a nature reserve and all sides got told to go away. That won't happen, but that's my level of horrified ennui / distaste for all sides in the region. That includes pumping waste treatment facilities into the major rivers over borders (Israel, Syria, both guilty as charged) and causing the worst oil spill in an environmentally protected zone in the area (Israel bombing oil refineries in last conflict) or brainwashing your kids into religious unthinking zealots (all sides) or placing politics over food (Hamas) and so on. The entire spectacle is one running sore.)
Last edited by Arete on Fri Jun 04, 2010 2:41 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Israelian raid on Gaza-bound aid ship kills 10+ people

Postby yedidyak » Fri Jun 04, 2010 2:31 pm UTC

This Al-Jazeera quote is funny in a way. The reporter is clearly not seeing whats going on he/she says "The organisers are telling me they are raising the white flag". So what this really is is hearsay being reported as an eyewitness on the scene account, and then accepted as such.

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Re: Israelian raid on Gaza-bound aid ship kills 10+ people

Postby Arete » Fri Jun 04, 2010 2:42 pm UTC

yedidyak wrote:This Al-Jazeera quote is funny in a way. The reporter is clearly not seeing whats going on he/she says "The organisers are telling me they are raising the white flag". So what this really is is hearsay being reported as an eyewitness on the scene account, and then accepted as such.


And the person already dead?

Way to make a mature point scoring post!

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Re: Israelian raid on Gaza-bound aid ship kills 10+ people

Postby yedidyak » Fri Jun 04, 2010 2:51 pm UTC

Arete wrote:
yedidyak wrote:This Al-Jazeera quote is funny in a way. The reporter is clearly not seeing whats going on he/she says "The organisers are telling me they are raising the white flag". So what this really is is hearsay being reported as an eyewitness on the scene account, and then accepted as such.


And the person already dead?

Way to make a mature point scoring post!


Maybe 'funny' was the wrong word, but it doesnt mean the point is less valid. The report may have been live from the ship, but the reporter had no clue what was actually going on, and was just repeating what they were being told by the 'organisers'.

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Re: Israelian raid on Gaza-bound aid ship kills 10+ people

Postby yoni45 » Fri Jun 04, 2010 2:52 pm UTC

Arete wrote:More information:

1) http://www.bernama.com/bernama/v5/newsworld.php?id=502990 : Journalist reports she was tasered. Not just paintball guns?


Okay? Great?

Arete wrote:2) http://warincontext.org/2010/05/28/israels-botched-propaganda-on-life-in-gaza/ Yes, the IDF / IFM do produce bad propoganda and fake stuff! (shock, horror)


Three points:

i) There's nothing actually showing the IDF officially releasing that video. I'll give them the benefit of the doubt in terms of the IDF actually showing the footage to them, but there's no Israeli preface stating this was actually in the past three years.

This is relevant because even if the footage was from a while back (and could have been presented as such), it doesn't change the fact that:

ii) The restaurant in question is still serving their full menu, as admitted by the restaurant itself when it stated the food came from across the border.

Arete wrote:3) http://seminal.firedoglake.com/diary/52394 Internet sensationalist claims Israel's weapons-on-board pictures are doctored, since disproved, but this is all part of the muddied' water...


Er, well, no. There is no 'but'. This is you trying to muddy the waters. If it's been disproven, there's nothing muddy about it.

Arete wrote:However, this is not to say the opposite doesn't happen - http://www.zombietime.com/fraud/ambulance/ for a site outlining what it thinks are anti-Israeli media manipulations in the past.


There's the ambulance fraud, the reuters photoshop fraud, the rachel corrie photo doctoring, the al-dura fraud, and numerous others. The illicit media manipulation by anti-Israeli bodies is pretty much a matter of course.


Arete wrote:4) http://rawstory.com/rs/2010/0531/raw-video-reporter-claims-israelis-fired-activists-boarding-ship/
“We are being hit by tear gas, stun grenades, we have navy ships on either side, helicopters overhead,” he said. “We are being attacked from every single side. This is in international waters, not Israeli waters, not in the 68-mile exclusion zone. We are being attacked in international waters completely illegally.”

“The organizers are telling me now, they are raising a white flag — they are raising a white flag to the Israeli army,” the Al Jazeera reporter said. “This is after one person has been killed; a civilian has been killed by munition. That number could be more … Despite the white flag being raised, despite the white flag being raised, the Israeli army is still shooting, still firing live munitions.”
. Obviously, the very name "Al Jazeera" to some suggests bias and non-objective reporting. However, the raw video seems to be reportage at the time, and it'd be an odd one to claim such things if the backing track was all quiet.


See, like that, for example. The videos released clearly show the Israelis did not go in with tear gas nor stun grenades.

Furthermore, you've got a reporter making a legal claim s/he is clearly not qualified to make.

That is why Al-Jazeera suggests bias and non-objective reporting; not the other way around.
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Re: Israelian raid on Gaza-bound aid ship kills 10+ people

Postby Chen » Fri Jun 04, 2010 2:56 pm UTC

Arete wrote:4) http://rawstory.com/rs/2010/0531/raw-video-reporter-claims-israelis-fired-activists-boarding-ship/
“We are being hit by tear gas, stun grenades, we have navy ships on either side, helicopters overhead,” he said. “We are being attacked from every single side. This is in international waters, not Israeli waters, not in the 68-mile exclusion zone. We are being attacked in international waters completely illegally.”

“The organizers are telling me now, they are raising a white flag — they are raising a white flag to the Israeli army,” the Al Jazeera reporter said. “This is after one person has been killed; a civilian has been killed by munition. That number could be more … Despite the white flag being raised, despite the white flag being raised, the Israeli army is still shooting, still firing live munitions.”
. Obviously, the very name "Al Jazeera" to some suggests bias and non-objective reporting. However, the raw video seems to be reportage at the time, and it'd be an odd one to claim such things if the backing track was all quiet.


Aside from the whole legal aspect which is FAR from clear-cut, the thing that bothers me about that link is the following paragraph

the article wrote:Portions of the raw video were featured by Al Jazeera and AFP, although the beginning segment and the most clear allegations that Israel opened fire before boarding were not included in their entirety.


How can you state "we have evidence the IDF shot at us first" but instead show us other video recordings that do not include that KEY part? From what I'm reading there, it implies there is raw video SOMEWHERE that shows the IDF shooting before boarding (ostensibly raw video from Al-Jazeera). Has anyone seen that? Is it available anywhere? I haven't been able to find anything that shows the "start" of the encounter.

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Re: Israelian raid on Gaza-bound aid ship kills 10+ people

Postby Dream » Fri Jun 04, 2010 3:05 pm UTC

yedidyak wrote:This Al-Jazeera quote is funny in a way. The reporter is clearly not seeing whats going on he/she says "The organisers are telling me they are raising the white flag". So what this really is is hearsay being reported as an eyewitness on the scene account, and then accepted as such.

You look really, really stupid when in accusing a person of exaggerating the amount they can infer from the information available to them, you do exactly the same thing. The present tense can imply future action: "I'm going to the shop, do you want anything while I'm there?" so the reporter could very easily be telling the complete truth when they say: They're raising a white flag. (they're on their way to do it, not "I can see it for myself" ELLIPSIS They're still firing now that the flag is up. (after the journalist has ascertained that the flag is indeed flying.)

I'm not going to get into an argument about unprovable speculation on what exact information was available to the journalist, I'm just pointing out that you look stupid. Really stupid.

yoni45 wrote:See, like that, for example. The videos released clearly show the Israelis did not go in with tear gas nor stun grenades.

No it doesn't. It shows that those Israelis in the picture didn't. An activist from Glasgow told The Independent that the seaborne raid took place first, before the helicopter, and was preceded by stun grenades and rubber bullets. That is eyewitness testimony, and is not disproven by anything I have seen so far. You cannot keep claiming special precedence for these videos as evidence, not until much longer, more complete versions are seen. At the moment, they prove nothing beyond that the IDF met with violent resistance, which no one is disputing.

Also, Arete pointed out themselves that the Al Jazeera footage is dodgy as evidence, something you might do well to do yourself when citing IDF footage.
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Re: Israelian raid on Gaza-bound aid ship kills 10+ people

Postby Arete » Fri Jun 04, 2010 3:07 pm UTC

yoni45 wrote:Okay? Great?


Not great. Repeatedly we've been told that the soldiers were armed with paintball guns and hand guns for 'backup'. This suggests that they were also carrying other crowd control weaponry.


yoni45 wrote:Three points:

i) There's nothing actually showing the IDF officially releasing that video. I'll give them the benefit of the doubt in terms of the IDF actually showing the footage to them, but there's no Israeli preface stating this was actually in the past three years.


Actually, there is: it is available from the IFM website.

yoni45 wrote:This is relevant because even if the footage was from a while back (and could have been presented as such), it doesn't change the fact that:

ii) The restaurant in question is still serving their full menu, as admitted by the restaurant itself when it stated the food came from across the border.


Actually, the reporter stated that the restaurant's owner stated that 70% of their ingredients were illegally smuggled in via underground tunnel. Now, this suggests that these tunnels are a problem for a 'closed border', but it does not support the IDF's stance that Gaza is getting enough food aid.

yoni45 wrote:Er, well, no. There is no 'but'. This is you trying to muddy the waters. If it's been disproven, there's nothing muddy about it.


Actually, no. I was highlighting the online debate over veracity going on: obviously, some people do not accept that the photos are genuine, and continue to do so. They are more than likely incorrect. This isn't me muddying the waters, merely reporting the ongoing attempts by both sides to manipulate reality.


yoni45 wrote:There's the ambulance fraud, the reuters photoshop fraud, the rachel corrie photo doctoring, the al-dura fraud, and numerous others. The illicit media manipulation by anti-Israeli bodies is pretty much a matter of course.


More than likely: I didn't dispute such going's on, and I even linked to them. Suggests I'm being objective, no?

yoni45 wrote:
See, like that, for example. The videos released clearly show the Israelis did not go in with tear gas nor stun grenades.

Furthermore, you've got a reporter making a legal claim s/he is clearly not qualified to make.

That is why Al-Jazeera suggests bias and non-objective reporting; not the other way around.



Videos which are missing the critical points in this siege. I get the feeling you're making a circular argument there, conveniently ignoring the elephant - I'll spell it out.

The IDF seized all documentary evidence of the night in question, and has maintained 100% control over evidence so far. They're also in the business of massive PR efforts during this flotilla to put forward their stance, as evidenced by posting videos of full gaza restaurants with out-of-date video evidence.


See the issue yet?

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Re: Israelian raid on Gaza-bound aid ship kills 10+ people

Postby Vaniver » Fri Jun 04, 2010 3:25 pm UTC

So, the Washington Post has been running all sorts of editorials about this event, and the two major ones today struck me as an interesting contrast.

Krauthammer, a conservative Jew, writes that the attempt to delegitimize the blockade is the next in a series of steps that, rather quickly, ends with Israel having no defenses left.
Ignatius, who as far as I can tell doesn't have significant partisan associations, writes that an Obama administration official says Israel has an image problem, and laments Obama's diplomatic failures.

This is, in a nutshell, the problem with Gaza. There is no credible reason to believe there will be peace in Gaza unless all the Jews are driven out of Israel or all the Gazans are driven out of Gaza. The international community, which primarily wants an end to war rather than the best post-war scenario, keeps pushing short-term changes which have no lasting reduction of war (except inasmuch as they increase the existential threat to Israel); the U.S. and Israel, which primarily want Israel thriving, are unwilling to make the long-term changes which will be a final solution, and are much easier to convince to make concessions than the enemies of Israel. As long as people can be convinced that Israel's problem is image, not people sworn to destroy them, then I don't see much hope for Israel long term.
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Re: Israelian raid on Gaza-bound aid ship kills 10+ people

Postby aleflamedyud » Fri Jun 04, 2010 4:02 pm UTC

Vaniver wrote:So, the Washington Post has been running all sorts of editorials about this event, and the two major ones today struck me as an interesting contrast.

Krauthammer, a conservative Jew, writes that the attempt to delegitimize the blockade is the next in a series of steps that, rather quickly, ends with Israel having no defenses left.
Ignatius, who as far as I can tell doesn't have significant partisan associations, writes that an Obama administration official says Israel has an image problem, and laments Obama's diplomatic failures.

This is, in a nutshell, the problem with Gaza. There is no credible reason to believe there will be peace in Gaza unless all the Jews are driven out of Israel or all the Gazans are driven out of Gaza. The international community, which primarily wants an end to war rather than the best post-war scenario, keeps pushing short-term changes which have no lasting reduction of war (except inasmuch as they increase the existential threat to Israel); the U.S. and Israel, which primarily want Israel thriving, are unwilling to make the long-term changes which will be a final solution, and are much easier to convince to make concessions than the enemies of Israel. As long as people can be convinced that Israel's problem is image, not people sworn to destroy them, then I don't see much hope for Israel long term.

On the upside, there are in fact Westerners smart enough to spot an opportunist propaganda campaign when they see one.

Highlights include:
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Re: Israelian raid on Gaza-bound aid ship kills 10+ people

Postby yoni45 » Fri Jun 04, 2010 4:05 pm UTC

Dream wrote:
yoni45 wrote:See, like that, for example. The videos released clearly show the Israelis did not go in with tear gas nor stun grenades.

No it doesn't. It shows that those Israelis in the picture didn't...


Yes, yes, we know. It's totally possible that other Israelis boarded the ship prior with shotguns loaded with depleted uranium and that they teleported out right before the video shown.

In fact, even if we had hours worth of footage, this obviously wouldn't prove that the 'activists' in the video weren't actually Israeli agents undercover trying to make the activists look bad.

In fact, none of this would prove that the Israelis didn't use a mind control device to force the activists to be violent.

Or, you know, until further evidence shows otherwise, we could reasonably assume that given that the soldiers shown in the video seem to be the only Israeli soldiers ones on the boat, and given that all activist attention is drawn to them, that there weren't "other" soldiers on the boat from prior. And by the fact that none of the activists looks to be suffering from tear gas or stun grenades nor running for cover, until further evidence shows otherwise, we can reasonably assume that they weren't hit with tear gas, nor stun grenades, nor shot at prior to the footage.

Although I guess the whole mind control thing works too.
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Re: Israelian raid on Gaza-bound aid ship kills 10+ people

Postby Dream » Fri Jun 04, 2010 4:14 pm UTC

yoni45 wrote:we could reasonably assume that given that the soldiers shown in the video seem to be the only Israeli soldiers ones on the boat, and given that all activist attention is drawn to them, that there weren't "other" soldiers on the boat from prior.

You don't know either of those things. In fact, the videos don't show anything at all about the situations before they begin, nor whether there are soldiers on any other part of the ship. Though, for the record, I didn't say the boat assault team made it on to the ship, just that they fired stun grenades and rubber bullets, which was the witness testimony. That testimony went on to say the raiding boat was repelled (temporarily, it succeeded later) by water cannon.

But it seems you just flat out won't entertain anything until you hear it from the IDF, so I actually think there is no hope for you in terms of understanding the situation.
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Re: Israelian raid on Gaza-bound aid ship kills 10+ people

Postby yoni45 » Fri Jun 04, 2010 4:18 pm UTC

Arete wrote:Not great. Repeatedly we've been told that the soldiers were armed with paintball guns and hand guns for 'backup'. This suggests that they were also carrying other crowd control weaponry.


With which, there's nothing wrong. In fact, given that the IDF would have no reason to cover up use of tazers, this seems to imply that's largely a lie, if anything.


Arete wrote:Actually, there is: it is available from the IFM website.


Okay -- link?

yoni45 wrote:This is relevant because even if the footage was from a while back (and could have been presented as such), it doesn't change the fact that:

ii) The restaurant in question is still serving their full menu, as admitted by the restaurant itself when it stated the food came from across the border.


Arete wrote:Actually, the reporter stated that the restaurant's owner stated that 70% of their ingredients were illegally smuggled in via underground tunnel...


Which again, doesn't affect Israel's point that they are still serving their menu, regardless of whether the footage was from a while back or not.

Whether or not you think this supports the stance that they're getting enough food aid is a different story altogether -- it doesn't affect the veracity of the fact that said restaurant is serving said food.

Arete wrote:This isn't me muddying the waters, merely reporting the ongoing attempts by both sides to manipulate reality...


The two are not mutually exclusive. Highlighting things that you yourself claim to be disproven is pretty much, by definition, muddying the waters. If you admit they're disproven, they have no place in discourse regarding the veracity of the Israeli account.

Arete wrote:More than likely: I didn't dispute such going's on, and I even linked to them. Suggests I'm being objective, no?


Yes, it does -- in that regard anyway. My point was simply that there is an extensive track record on the anti-Israeli side of illicitly manipulating the media.

yoni45 wrote:Videos which are missing the critical points in this siege...


The relevant critical point is the initial Israeli boarding of the boat. That footage *has* been released and the footage provided, by any reasonable doubt, is of Israel's initial boarding, with no real evidence provided to show otherwise nor any serious reason to doubt that fact.
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Re: Israelian raid on Gaza-bound aid ship kills 10+ people

Postby aleflamedyud » Fri Jun 04, 2010 4:23 pm UTC

yoni45 wrote:
Dream wrote:
yoni45 wrote:See, like that, for example. The videos released clearly show the Israelis did not go in with tear gas nor stun grenades.

No it doesn't. It shows that those Israelis in the picture didn't...


Yes, yes, we know. It's totally possible that other Israelis boarded the ship prior with shotguns loaded with depleted uranium and that they teleported out right before the video shown.

In fact, even if we had hours worth of footage, this obviously wouldn't prove that the 'activists' in the video weren't actually Israeli agents undercover trying to make the activists look bad.

In fact, none of this would prove that the Israelis didn't use a mind control device to force the activists to be violent.

Or, you know, until further evidence shows otherwise, we could reasonably assume that given that the soldiers shown in the video seem to be the only Israeli soldiers ones on the boat, and given that all activist attention is drawn to them, that there weren't "other" soldiers on the boat from prior. And by the fact that none of the activists looks to be suffering from tear gas or stun grenades nor running for cover, until further evidence shows otherwise, we can reasonably assume that they weren't hit with tear gas, nor stun grenades, nor shot at prior to the footage.

Although I guess the whole mind control thing works too.

Personally, I've just gone ahead and assumed that Hamas, Hizballah, Free Gaza, and the whole Palestine Lobby of the West are passing an Apple of Eden back-and-forth. It's really the only thing that explains their ability to convince most of the Western world of their story without the slightest bit of examination or deeper probing. It also explains their desperation to smuggle around the ban on weapons: they need to hand off the Apple without the Israelis getting their hands on it ;-).

To demonstrate, how much the coverage of the Free Gaza Flotilla raid has had anything to say or examine about the goals and ideologies of the Israeli coalition currently in power, Hamas, or the Free Gaza organization, and what they were all trying to accomplish long-term? On the pro-Israel side, a regrettably small amount. On the pro-Flotilla and pro-Arab sides, damn near nothing because humanitarian oh dearism and the short-term demand for immediate unilateral concessions from Israel have made a nice, heady substitute for long-term planning about peace in the Middle East.
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Re: Israelian raid on Gaza-bound aid ship kills 10+ people

Postby yoni45 » Fri Jun 04, 2010 4:24 pm UTC

Dream wrote:You don't know either of those things. In fact, the videos don't show anything at all about the situations before they begin, nor whether there are soldiers on any other part of the ship. Though, for the record, I didn't say the boat assault team made it on to the ship, just that they fired stun grenades and rubber bullets, which was the witness testimony. That testimony went on to say the raiding boat was repelled (temporarily, it succeeded later) by water cannon.

But it seems you just flat out won't entertain anything until you hear it from the IDF, so I actually think there is no hope for you in terms of understanding the situation.


Reading fail.

Yoni Said:

"Or, you know, until further evidence shows otherwise, we could reasonably assume that given that the soldiers shown in the video seem to be the only Israeli soldiers ones on the boat, and given that all activist attention is drawn to them, that there weren't "other" soldiers on the boat from prior. And by the fact that none of the activists looks to be suffering from tear gas or stun grenades nor running for cover, until further evidence shows otherwise, we can reasonably assume that they weren't hit with tear gas, nor stun grenades, nor shot at prior to the footage."

We get it -- lots of stuff could have "possibly" happened, and it totally wouldn't surprise me if given complete 3-dimensional footage of every moment of that assault, you claimed that this didn't prove that every single person on the ship wasn't actually an Israeli agent.

And you'd still be just as silly.
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Re: Israelian raid on Gaza-bound aid ship kills 10+ people

Postby Arete » Fri Jun 04, 2010 4:29 pm UTC

Vaniver wrote:
Krauthammer, a conservative Jew, writes that the attempt to delegitimize the blockade is the next in a series of steps that, rather quickly, ends with Israel having no defenses left.


His use of "active defense" is somewhat puzzling, given he cites the Golan Heights (and indirectly 7 day war):

The Israel Defense Forces (IDF) attacked the diversion works in Syria in March, May, and August 1965, perpetuating a prolonged chain of border violence that linked directly to the events leading to war.
Koboril and Glantz, 1998, pp. 129–131 (further investigation needed to see their bias). So a pre-emptive strike to protect 11% of Israel's water supplies lead to a "active defense".

So we're back to history again, a time before most of those serving in the IDF, or filling the ranks of Hamas were born. Joy. He also plays the Nazi card, which is fairly specious.

[tangent]
Can we please drop entirely this myth that Israel is somehow going to cease to exist soon? It has one of the most technologically advanced armies in the world, their military aid budget from the USA counts in the billions of dollars per annum and it has a huge high tech industry base (meaning that allies will step in to aid it, in terms of geopolitical importance to Corporate assets) and so on and so forth. This 'little me' paranoia fuels both sides, and is part & parcel of the 'solipsistic childishness' I cited before. Yes, a small portion of neighbours want to wipe it out, but this doesn't mean that it is in anyway close to reality. England, France, most of Europe lived under this for most of the last 20th C [specifically - Puritan / Catholic wars] and it neither happened nor affects them now, barring slight xenophobic tasteless jokes.

Why not hope that in 50 / 100 years the middle east is at this point, hmm?


Back on track:

...because they represent, fundamentally, the existential anti-Israel outlook that has manifested itself in the West in recent years. There is no nation on Earth that would not be at least concerned about the arrival of an intervention-demanding force near its shores.


While I like Spiked, the author is using the flotilla for his own ends - slaying the chattering classes. It is also hyperbolic and semantically laded with tripe: "force" denotes something more than 10 (8?) tiny ships with about 100 people on board them. The reasons behind protests against Israel largely focus on Human Rights, not "Antisemitism". They're big in the Democratic Propaganda department, apparently; this isn't to say that certain blinkers of naivety or indifference aren't used when looking at the 'poor oppressed' people of Gaza, specifically in their Religious / Political reasoning, but saying that there's simply no issue (which, in fact, the IDF / IFM tried to do, as cited earlier over restaurants) is in itself a greater lie.


The most depressing thing is both of the commentators get paid for what they've written. Ugh.

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Re: Israelian raid on Gaza-bound aid ship kills 10+ people

Postby yoni45 » Fri Jun 04, 2010 4:43 pm UTC

Arete wrote:...but saying that there's simply no issue (which, in fact, the IDF / IFM tried to do, as cited earlier over restaurants) is in itself a greater lie...


I've been trying to do the number crunching myself over the last day or two but got derailed... The CIC seems to have an interesting data set though (for the record, Gaza's populace is about 1.5 million)... thoughts?

http://www.cicweb.ca/scene/2010/06/israel_aid_to_gaza/

CIC wrote:In the first quarter of 2010 alone (January-March), Israel delivered 94,500 tons of supplies to Gaza. It’s very easy to miss what that actually means for the people of Gaza. The breakdown includes:

  • 40,000 tons of wheat – which is equal to 53 million loaves of bread;
  • 2,760 tons of rice – which equals 69 million servings;
  • 1,987 tons of clothes and footwear – the equivalent weight of 3.6 million pairs of jeans; and
  • 553 tons of milk powder and baby food – equivalent to over 3.1 million days of formula for an average six-month-old baby.
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Re: Israelian raid on Gaza-bound aid ship kills 10+ people

Postby aleflamedyud » Fri Jun 04, 2010 5:05 pm UTC

Arete wrote:
...because they represent, fundamentally, the existential anti-Israel outlook that has manifested itself in the West in recent years. There is no nation on Earth that would not be at least concerned about the arrival of an intervention-demanding force near its shores.


While I like Spiked, the author is using the flotilla for his own ends - slaying the chattering classes. It is also hyperbolic and semantically laded with tripe: "force" denotes something more than 10 (8?) tiny ships with about 100 people on board them. The reasons behind protests against Israel largely focus on Human Rights, not "Antisemitism". They're big in the Democratic Propaganda department, apparently; this isn't to say that certain blinkers of naivety or indifference aren't used when looking at the 'poor oppressed' people of Gaza, specifically in their Religious / Political reasoning

He's definitely writing to his own ends, but this is one of those times when the stopped clock is right. "Humanitarian", short-term, and completely de-politicized anti-Zionism and "pro-Palestine" activism has become a fad among the Western left-wing, used to recover a sense of moral authority after the ideological collapse of hard-core socialism. Spiked notices this kind of thing because its writers refuse to give up their hard-core socialism, so they notice when the Left does something aimless or stupid.

I mean seriously, proposing that the US, UK, France, China, and Russia - the greatest imperialists and colonialists of modern history - should sanction or invade Israel for "war crimes" or "imperialism" (read: claiming to be natives of land where someone else lives) is hypocritical and pointless. The actual political plan favored by the anti-Zionist movement is a one-state plan, the exact thing rejected by the majority of both the Israeli Jews and the Palestinian Arabs. It's trying to impose a fable onto world history by sanctions and arms rather than pushing the solution that the people themselves want.

And I don't think anyone other than, perhaps, the Israeli Foreign Ministry has claimed that there is no problem for the people of Gaza. Their economy is wrecked and there's no telling whether the aid that goes in is enough, let alone whether the people actually receive it. What I, personally, object to in the Gaza Pity Party is the refusal to consider political factors, such as Hamas's using the Strip as a missile silo or the Iron Dome rocket-interception technology that Israel was supposed to have had by now.
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Re: Israelian raid on Gaza-bound aid ship kills 10+ people

Postby RockoTDF » Fri Jun 04, 2010 9:04 pm UTC

yoni45 wrote:I've been trying to do the number crunching myself over the last day or two but got derailed... The CIC seems to have an interesting data set though (for the record, Gaza's populace is about 1.5 million)... thoughts?

http://www.cicweb.ca/scene/2010/06/israel_aid_to_gaza/

CIC wrote:In the first quarter of 2010 alone (January-March), Israel delivered 94,500 tons of supplies to Gaza. It’s very easy to miss what that actually means for the people of Gaza. The breakdown includes:

  • 40,000 tons of wheat – which is equal to 53 million loaves of bread;
  • 2,760 tons of rice – which equals 69 million servings;
  • 1,987 tons of clothes and footwear – the equivalent weight of 3.6 million pairs of jeans; and
  • 553 tons of milk powder and baby food – equivalent to over 3.1 million days of formula for an average six-month-old baby.


I don't think too many people are starving to death in Gaza, and I don't think anyone has claimed that specifically. I think that the problem with aid are other things, building materials, water purification systems medical supplies (such as surgical equipment, a BBC podcast I listened to talked about problems in a large hospital beyond basic medicine), and so on. It is great being clothed and fed, but living with inadequate drinkable water with a shelter shortage is probably rather unpleasant, to say the least.

53 million loaves of bread seems like a lot of bread....same thing with 69 million servings of rice. How many trucks full of wheat is that?
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Re: Israelian raid on Gaza-bound aid ship kills 10+ people

Postby aleflamedyud » Fri Jun 04, 2010 9:05 pm UTC

Actually, isn't "starving to death" precisely what people mean when they say 61% of Gazans are "food insecure"? I'm not quite up on my politically-convenient euphemisms.
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Re: Israelian raid on Gaza-bound aid ship kills 10+ people

Postby RockoTDF » Fri Jun 04, 2010 10:09 pm UTC

aleflamedyud wrote:Actually, isn't "starving to death" precisely what people mean when they say 61% of Gazans are "food insecure"? I'm not quite up on my politically-convenient euphemisms.


In all seriousness, I hadn't actually read anything to indicate that there was a food problem in gaza at the moment. This may have to do with the fact that world is still going "...uhh, cement and wheelchairs are illegal?" and that the boats in question were carrying those items. Not all humanitarian crises are about food.

But yes, "food insecure" probably means hungry, but not famine-in-Africa starving. In which case Israel has some serious explaining to do (as if they didn't already).
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Re: Israelian raid on Gaza-bound aid ship kills 10+ people

Postby BlackSails » Fri Jun 04, 2010 10:23 pm UTC

Arete wrote:Can we please drop entirely this myth that Israel is somehow going to cease to exist soon? It has one of the most technologically advanced armies in the world, their military aid budget from the USA counts in the billions of dollars per annum and it has a huge high tech industry base (meaning that allies will step in to aid it, in terms of geopolitical importance to Corporate assets) and so on and so forth. This 'little me' paranoia fuels both sides, and is part & parcel of the 'solipsistic childishness' I cited before. Yes, a small portion of neighbours want to wipe it out, but this doesn't mean that it is in anyway close to reality. England, France, most of Europe lived under this for most of the last 20th C [specifically - Puritan / Catholic wars] and it neither happened nor affects them now, barring slight xenophobic tasteless jokes.



All of this was true during the Yom Kippur war, and Israel very nearly lost that.

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Re: Israelian raid on Gaza-bound aid ship kills 10+ people

Postby sourmìlk » Fri Jun 04, 2010 10:26 pm UTC

RockoTDF wrote:
yoni45 wrote:I've been trying to do the number crunching myself over the last day or two but got derailed... The CIC seems to have an interesting data set though (for the record, Gaza's populace is about 1.5 million)... thoughts?

http://www.cicweb.ca/scene/2010/06/israel_aid_to_gaza/

CIC wrote:In the first quarter of 2010 alone (January-March), Israel delivered 94,500 tons of supplies to Gaza. It’s very easy to miss what that actually means for the people of Gaza. The breakdown includes:

  • 40,000 tons of wheat – which is equal to 53 million loaves of bread;
  • 2,760 tons of rice – which equals 69 million servings;
  • 1,987 tons of clothes and footwear – the equivalent weight of 3.6 million pairs of jeans; and
  • 553 tons of milk powder and baby food – equivalent to over 3.1 million days of formula for an average six-month-old baby.


I don't think too many people are starving to death in Gaza, and I don't think anyone has claimed that specifically. I think that the problem with aid are other things, building materials, water purification systems medical supplies (such as surgical equipment, a BBC podcast I listened to talked about problems in a large hospital beyond basic medicine), and so on. It is great being clothed and fed, but living with inadequate drinkable water with a shelter shortage is probably rather unpleasant, to say the least.

53 million loaves of bread seems like a lot of bread....same thing with 69 million servings of rice. How many trucks full of wheat is that?


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Re: Israelian raid on Gaza-bound aid ship kills 10+ people

Postby aleflamedyud » Fri Jun 04, 2010 10:30 pm UTC

BlackSails wrote:
Arete wrote:Can we please drop entirely this myth that Israel is somehow going to cease to exist soon? It has one of the most technologically advanced armies in the world, their military aid budget from the USA counts in the billions of dollars per annum and it has a huge high tech industry base (meaning that allies will step in to aid it, in terms of geopolitical importance to Corporate assets) and so on and so forth. This 'little me' paranoia fuels both sides, and is part & parcel of the 'solipsistic childishness' I cited before. Yes, a small portion of neighbours want to wipe it out, but this doesn't mean that it is in anyway close to reality. England, France, most of Europe lived under this for most of the last 20th C [specifically - Puritan / Catholic wars] and it neither happened nor affects them now, barring slight xenophobic tasteless jokes.



All of this was true during the Yom Kippur war, and Israel very nearly lost that.

To clarify, Israel is an extremely small country. Its arsenal is indeed one of the most technologically advanced in the world, but as, for example, the United States has learned recently, that doesn't necessarily help. Low-tech weapons available with relative ease to terrorist groups like Hizballah (and Hamas when its shipping was free) remain quite effective at the short distances involved.
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Re: Israelian raid on Gaza-bound aid ship kills 10+ people

Postby sourmìlk » Fri Jun 04, 2010 10:31 pm UTC

aleflamedyud wrote:
BlackSails wrote:
Arete wrote:Can we please drop entirely this myth that Israel is somehow going to cease to exist soon? It has one of the most technologically advanced armies in the world, their military aid budget from the USA counts in the billions of dollars per annum and it has a huge high tech industry base (meaning that allies will step in to aid it, in terms of geopolitical importance to Corporate assets) and so on and so forth. This 'little me' paranoia fuels both sides, and is part & parcel of the 'solipsistic childishness' I cited before. Yes, a small portion of neighbours want to wipe it out, but this doesn't mean that it is in anyway close to reality. England, France, most of Europe lived under this for most of the last 20th C [specifically - Puritan / Catholic wars] and it neither happened nor affects them now, barring slight xenophobic tasteless jokes.



All of this was true during the Yom Kippur war, and Israel very nearly lost that.

To clarify, Israel is an extremely small country. Its arsenal is indeed one of the most technologically advanced in the world, but as, for example, the United States has learned recently, that doesn't necessarily help. Low-tech weapons available with relative ease to terrorist groups like Hizballah (and Hamas when its shipping was free) remain quite effective at the short distances involved.


Not to mention if Iran ever developed an H-Bomb, it would only take one to hit all of Israel.
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Re: Israelian raid on Gaza-bound aid ship kills 10+ people

Postby scikidus » Fri Jun 04, 2010 11:23 pm UTC

sourmìlk wrote:Not to mention if Iran ever developed an H-Bomb, it would only take one to hit all of Israel.
Not to mention completely irradiate much of the Middle East. Radioactive fallout doesn't obey political boundaries.
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Re: Israelian raid on Gaza-bound aid ship kills 10+ people

Postby yoni45 » Sat Jun 05, 2010 12:08 am UTC

RockoTDF wrote:I don't think too many people are starving to death in Gaza, and I don't think anyone has claimed that specifically.


Pg. 2, JonScholar:

"You know what? I'm ok with this. The Gaza people need aid. They need building supplies. They need food."

Past that, though...

RockoTDF wrote:I think that the problem with aid are other things, building materials, water purification systems medical supplies (such as surgical equipment, a BBC podcast I listened to talked about problems in a large hospital beyond basic medicine), and so on. It is great being clothed and fed, but living with inadequate drinkable water with a shelter shortage is probably rather unpleasant, to say the least.


The site actually goes on with:

CIC wrote:This reflects a long-term effort on the part of Israel to deliver a massive and comprehensive supply of aid to Gaza’s civilians, while restricting the ability of Hamas to import missiles that have been launched at the cities of southern Israel. In 2009 alone:

  • During the Muslim holy days of Ramadan and Eid al-Adha, Israel shipped some 11,000 head of cattle into Gaza – enough to provide 8.8 million meals of beef;
  • More than 3,000 tons of hypochlorite were delivered by Israel to Gaza for water purification purposes – that’s 60 billion gallons of purified water; and
  • Israel brought some 4,883 tons of medical equipment and medicine into Gaza – a weight equivalent to over 360,000 260-piece mobile trauma first aid kits.


So it looks like Israel does address even medical equipment. The sufficiency of that one is a bit harder to quantify without outside expertise though.

All this said though, Israel is under no obligation to provide Gazans with a comfortable life -- this is a state with which Israel is at war. And not by their choice either -- Hamas has explicitly stated that it is not interested in peace with Israel under any circumstances and that it is interested solely in Israel's destruction.

So, as long as Israel is avoiding a humanitarian disaster, Israel is hardly obligated to provide a comfortable life to the citizens of a state that is trying to destroy it with no compromise.

RockoTDF wrote:53 million loaves of bread seems like a lot of bread....same thing with 69 million servings of rice. How many trucks full of wheat is that?


No clue -- is this actually pertinent?
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Re: Israelian raid on Gaza-bound aid ship kills 10+ people

Postby Arete » Sat Jun 05, 2010 12:13 am UTC

Some points, not necessarily in order:

1) An "H-Bomb" would not irradiate the 'entire of Israel'. At best, an Iranian H-bomb (which is vastly out of date, but let us not digress) would irradiate a city the size of, let's say, Nagasaki or Jerusalem. Whilst I might personally think that turning Jerusalem into a plain of glass so no-one (Jewish, Christian, Muslim) could fight over it would be a poetic end to 2k years of strife, Iranian policy (aka Religion) suggests they wouldn't nuke one of the most holy cities to the Muslim faith.

So let's stop being silly on both these counts.

A) No, you can't nuke the entire of Israel's territory with a single weapon (even the largest Soviet ones)
B) No, nuking "THE EVIL ZIONAZIS" when it is also your holy site /city doesn't parse even to religious fundamentalist nutcases

2) "Israel almost lost the Yom Kippur war".

The Soviets quickly detected the increased American defense condition, and were astonished and bewildered at the response. "Who could have imagined the Americans would be so easily frightened," said Nikolai Podgorny. "It is not reasonable to become engaged in a war with the United States because of Egypt and Syria," said Premier Alexei Kosygin, while KGB chief Yuri Andropov added that "We shall not unleash the Third World War."[190] The letter from the American cabinet arrived during the meeting. Brezhnev decided that the Americans were too nervous, and that the best course of action would be to wait to reply.[191] The next morning, the Egyptians agreed to the American suggestion, and dropped their request for assistance from the Soviets, bringing the crisis to an end.


No, they didn't. Surprise attack (on Religious holiday) quickly repelled, all sides acting as proxies to the Cold War jostling going on. Egypt & Syria relied heavily on Soviet tech for their initial gains, which was quickly negated, and both sides were looking to greater super-powers for how it was going to end. Even if Israel had started to lose, you can invert the above statement (i.e. America threatening USSR when Israel started to lose) and get the same result. Again, we're pretending that the Middle East wasn't just a proxy play ground at this time. Sorry kids, but from the time of the Suez issues through Yom Kippur to the modern day, the middle east is nothing but a proxy playground for larger, more important, geopolitical jostling. Gosh.


3) Humanitarian status of Gaza. The UN has already stated that both Israel & Hamas were guilty of war crimes in previous spats, and that life ain't great there. http://www2.ohchr.org/english/bodies/hrcouncil/specialsession/9/FactFindingMission.htm

Then again, if you know anything about UN politics, UNHRC has no power.

Take it as read: life wasn't amazing; life got a whole lot worse when the entire infrastructure, economy, health system and so forth got destroyed as a punishment for democratically electing a bunch of anti-Semitic people who hated Israel, and whose #3 policy was eradicating the said State of Israel. Still. Its a democratic election: people tend to vote with their basest emotions, and if Israel was popular for supplying the area with aid, happiness, economic freedom and entertainment, I'm guessing they wouldn't have voted that way. Just a thought.

Small note: punishing civilian populations for exercising their democratic rights is, well, illegal under international law.



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Re: Israelian raid on Gaza-bound aid ship kills 10+ people

Postby Izawwlgood » Sat Jun 05, 2010 12:20 am UTC

Arete wrote:Whilst I might personally think that turning Jerusalem into a plain of glass so no-one (Jewish, Christian, Muslim) could fight over it would be a poetic end to 2k years of strife

I actually agree this would be kind of a solution. Maybe we can convince an entirely unaffiliated party to do so, unite the major religions under a mutual banner of hatred?
However, lets be honest; nuclear threat from Iran isn't 'threat of losing Jerusalem'. It's like saying the US has nothing to fear from nukes because New York is home to everyone; there are a lot of other cities that wouldn't fare well.
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Re: Israelian raid on Gaza-bound aid ship kills 10+ people

Postby yoni45 » Sat Jun 05, 2010 12:23 am UTC

Arete wrote:Small note: punishing civilian populations for exercising their democratic rights is, well, illegal under international law.


Fortunately, blockading a state with which you're at war is not.
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Re: Israelian raid on Gaza-bound aid ship kills 10+ people

Postby Arete » Sat Jun 05, 2010 12:27 am UTC

yoni45 wrote:
Arete wrote:Small note: punishing civilian populations for exercising their democratic rights is, well, illegal under international law.


Fortunately, blockading a state with which you're at war is not.




Sorry, I missed the UN declaration that Palestine was actually a state now, and Israel recognising Palestine as a Nation State. I naively thought that part of all of this was the issue of self-determination.


In 1993, in the Oslo Accords, Israel acknowledged the PLO negotiating team as "representing the Palestinian people", in return for the PLO recognizing Israel's right to exist in peace, acceptance of UN Security Council resolutions 242 and 338, and its rejection of "violence and terrorism".[12] No reference is made in the Accords to the 1988 declaration of a State of Palestine. The Palestinian National Authority (PNA or PA), established as a result of the Oslo Accords is an interim administrative body that exercises some governmental functions in parts of the West Bank and the Gaza Strip. The current President of Palestine is Mahmoud Abbas, serving in his capacity as Chairman of the Palestine Liberation Organization.

An analysis outlining the relationship between the PLO, the PNA (or PA), Palestine and Israel in light of the interim arrangements set out in the Oslo Accords begins by stating that, "Palestine may best be described as a transitional association between the PA and the PLO." It goes on to explain that this transitional association accords the PA responsibility for local government and the PLO responsibility for representation of the Palestinian people in the international arena, while prohibiting it from concluding international agreements that affect the status of the occupied territories. This situation is said to be accepted by the Palestinian population insofar as it is viewed as a temporary arrangement.[68]




Ok, we've found out you're either ignorant or dishonest now. Proceed!


In case you're missing out on your national politics:

The District Court of Israel ruled that the Palestinian Authority satisfied the criteria to be legally treated as a sovereign state[109] The ruling was appealed to the Supreme Court of Israel which ruled that the Palestinian Authority cannot be defined as a foreign state, since recognizing states is an exclusive authority of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs. The Supreme Court held that the Palestinian Authority can be granted state immunity on an ad hoc basis when it is warranted by the circumstances[110]. The Knesset responded to the willingness of the judges to engage in examination of the notion of ‘statehood for the purpose of state immunity’ by adopting a measure that makes it possible to grant sovereign immunity to a ‘political entity that is not a state’ as part of the 2008 Foreign States Immunity Law, Art. 20


So, it is not a state, according to the Knesset.


Oops. I guess you just admitted to an illegal act on behalf of your country?


(And no, I don't care - but the very fact that wikipedia proves you incorrect places you into the internet hall of /b/ of discussion)
Last edited by Arete on Sat Jun 05, 2010 12:35 am UTC, edited 1 time in total.

yoni45
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Re: Israelian raid on Gaza-bound aid ship kills 10+ people

Postby yoni45 » Sat Jun 05, 2010 12:35 am UTC

Arete wrote:Sorry, I missed the UN declaration that Palestine was actually a state now, and Israel recognising Palestine as a Nation State. I naively thought that part of all of this was the issue of self-determination.


Fortunately again, you're wrong. The relevant laws aren't concerned with whether the UN officially declares anything to be a state.

Arete wrote:The District Court of Israel ruled that the Palestinian Authority satisfied the criteria to be legally treated as a sovereign state...


Whoops, wrong party. Smooth.

As far as the definition, at least a few of these should work:

http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&sourc ... =&gs_rfai=
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