Meat should not eat meat.

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Wnderer
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Meat should not eat meat.

Postby Wnderer » Sat Jun 26, 2010 11:07 am UTC

In Arizona they're serving Lion burgers.
http://money.cnn.com/2010/06/23/smallbu ... /index.htm

This is just wrong. Meat should not eat meat. No dog, cats, lions, or tigers. Eat herbivores.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herbivore
Herbivores form an important link in the food chain as they consume plants in order to receive the carbohydrates produced by a plant from photosynthesis. Carnivores in turn consume herbivores for the same reason, while omnivores can obtain their nutrients from either plants or herbivores. Due to an herbivore's ability to survive solely on tough and fibrous plant matter, they are termed the primary consumers in the food cycle(chain).


Respect the food chain.

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Re: Meat should not eat meat.

Postby TaintedDeity » Sat Jun 26, 2010 11:19 am UTC

You'd be raising a good point of the animals you're basing human behavior on so much as followed the rules you're suggesting humans should follow.
Carnivores eat carnivores.
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Re: Meat should not eat meat.

Postby Gelsamel » Sat Jun 26, 2010 11:21 am UTC

Man, after reading that article I feel like a lion burger. I guess I'll have to settle for Kangaroo instead.
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Re: Meat should not eat meat.

Postby Maurog » Sat Jun 26, 2010 11:33 am UTC

Chickens eat meat in form of worms and other insects, does that mean eating chickens goes against the "natural order"?

As an omnivore, I will eat whatever I please, thank you very much.
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Re: Meat should not eat meat.

Postby ian » Sat Jun 26, 2010 11:49 am UTC

How is a cow not 'meat'?

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Re: Meat should not eat meat.

Postby Godskalken » Sat Jun 26, 2010 11:58 am UTC

The "meat should not eat meat" tag is completely off target. I agree that this is a disgusting practice, but for the reason that noone should ever engage in activities that encourage poaching.

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Re: Meat should not eat meat.

Postby TheKrikkitWars » Sat Jun 26, 2010 12:19 pm UTC

Meat should not eat the same meat is a valid point though, using Meat and Bone Meal as feed for ruminant animals was disasterous (scrapie from sheep became BSE in cows, which unlike scrapie can become v-CJD in humans).

Eating the meat of a carnivore or omnivore which has been consuming meat naturally is safe, as is eating an omnivore (normally a pig) which has been eating category 3 material; eating a herbivore that hase been fed meat or an animal which has eaten category 2 or especially catagory 1 material, is unsafe (in the case of animals consuming catagory 1 material, it's extremely unsafe).
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Re: Meat should not eat meat.

Postby Wnderer » Sat Jun 26, 2010 12:42 pm UTC

TheKrikkitWars wrote:Eating the meat of a carnivore or omnivore which has been consuming meat naturally is safe./quote]

Bio accumulation means meat has more toxins the higher you go in the food chain.

http://www.answers.com/topic/food-web

Note, incidentally, the similarity of the relationships between this "pyramid of poison" and the ecological pyramid, whereby energy, which is beneficial, passes between trophic levels. The higher the trophic level, the smaller the amounts of energy that the organism extracts from its food—but the higher the amount of toxic content. By the time the toxins have passed on to a few more levels in the food web, they might be appearing in concentrations as great as 10,000 times their original amount.

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Re: Meat should not eat meat.

Postby frezik » Sat Jun 26, 2010 12:55 pm UTC

Godskalken wrote:The "meat should not eat meat" tag is completely off target. I agree that this is a disgusting practice, but for the reason that noone should ever engage in activities that encourage poaching.


FTA:

Is it legal to eat lions? Yes, according to the FDA's communications team. The African lion isn't currently a federally protected endangered species and it qualifies as a game meat, FDA spokesman Michael Herndon said in an e-mail.

While the African lion is not considered endangered by U.S. regulators, it is classified as "threatened" by the Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species, an international protection agreement.

As for Czimer, his shop is officially registered with the FDA and has been inspected by state regulators, Heardon said.


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Re: Meat should not eat meat.

Postby Bright Shadows » Sat Jun 26, 2010 1:01 pm UTC

That only works with 'toxins' that don't degrade in the animal. Mercury is a problem, for instance, so eating tuna isn't the greatest way to get your fish fix. Eating carnivores in general is not the same as eating tuna though. I really cannot think of an undegrading toxic substance that pigs would come in contact with that isn't regulated.
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Re: Meat should not eat meat.

Postby Vaniver » Sat Jun 26, 2010 5:15 pm UTC

frezik wrote:Everything is legal here.
Except that we have no clue who Czimer gets the meat from. Someone selling farmed lions would probably not be that shady about it.
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Re: Meat should not eat meat.

Postby Glmclain » Sat Jun 26, 2010 5:27 pm UTC

Being totally honest here, I would eat the shit out of a Lion Burger.
Last edited by Glmclain on Sat Jun 26, 2010 6:10 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Meat should not eat meat.

Postby Xenks » Sat Jun 26, 2010 5:33 pm UTC

I'm confused here. Carnivores shouldn't eat carnivores? Has anyone notified the sharks and bears? Or is it humans shouldn't eat lion, because you find that disturbing? Because if it's the latter, I'll have to disagree, because they're not endangered, and are edible. If this man is obtaining his lion meat illegally, sure he should be punished, but if it's legal I see no issue here.

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Re: Meat should not eat meat.

Postby Glmclain » Sat Jun 26, 2010 6:09 pm UTC

I actually agree with Xenks, as long as he obtained it legally he can do whatever the hell he wants with it. I mean it's kinda hypocritical to say "you can eat this one, but not this one" if both of them have been obtained legally.

It's more of a cultural thing than anything methinks.
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Re: Meat should not eat meat.

Postby cjmcjmcjmcjm » Sat Jun 26, 2010 6:29 pm UTC

Emphasis mine:
Wnderer wrote:This is just wrong. Meat should not eat meat. No dog, cats, lions, or tigers. Eat herbivores.

Never been to China, eh?
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Re: Meat should not eat meat.

Postby The Reaper » Sat Jun 26, 2010 6:38 pm UTC

I, too, would like a lion burger.

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Re: Meat should not eat meat.

Postby mmmcannibalism » Sat Jun 26, 2010 7:12 pm UTC

Why does a lion burger sound so damn appetizing?
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Re: Meat should not eat meat.

Postby Glass Fractal » Sat Jun 26, 2010 7:27 pm UTC

I don't get the title. It sounds like an call for vegetarianism but is apparently about how carnivores shouldn't eat carnivores because it's unnatural? I'm pretty sure sharks do that.

But humans aren't carnivores anyway, we're omnivores aren't we?

mmmcannibalism wrote:Why does a lion burger sound so damn appetizing?


Because it sounds awesome. Somehow I don't think it really would be, probably sort of stringy.

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Re: Meat should not eat meat.

Postby General_Norris » Sat Jun 26, 2010 8:01 pm UTC

mmmcannibalism wrote:Why does a lion burger sound so damn appetizing?

Because it sounds awesome. Somehow I don't think it really would be, probably sort of stringy.[/quote]

I agree. Our normal hamburguers don't sound cool enough. I also think it may be a bit too stringy but I have not tried it so...

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Re: Meat should not eat meat.

Postby thc » Sat Jun 26, 2010 8:54 pm UTC

Bright Shadows wrote:That only works with 'toxins' that don't degrade in the animal. Mercury is a problem, for instance, so eating tuna isn't the greatest way to get your fish fix. Eating carnivores in general is not the same as eating tuna though. I really cannot think of an undegrading toxic substance that pigs would come in contact with that isn't regulated.

PCBs?.

Furthermore, you're assuming that all biomagnified toxins are man made, which is not the case. Eating herbivore-meat is already associated with increased cancer and health risks. Is it really worth increasing that risk by an order of magnitude? There are many downsides to eating lion meat, and I see little reason in favor of it. Perhaps someone can explain the appeal to me.

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Re: Meat should not eat meat.

Postby TaintedDeity » Sat Jun 26, 2010 9:05 pm UTC

thc wrote:
Bright Shadows wrote:That only works with 'toxins' that don't degrade in the animal. Mercury is a problem, for instance, so eating tuna isn't the greatest way to get your fish fix. Eating carnivores in general is not the same as eating tuna though. I really cannot think of an undegrading toxic substance that pigs would come in contact with that isn't regulated.

PCBs?.

Furthermore, you're assuming that all biomagnified toxins are man made, which is not the case. Eating herbivore-meat is already associated with increased cancer and health risks. Is it really worth increasing that risk by an order of magnitude? There are many downsides to eating lion meat, and I see little reason in favor of it. Perhaps someone can explain the appeal to me.
The same reason alcohol or smoking or eating fatty foods has, I imagine. It's enjoyable. You're eating a shitting lion. It's yummy. It's food.
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Re: Meat should not eat meat.

Postby thc » Sat Jun 26, 2010 9:09 pm UTC

TaintedDeity wrote:
thc wrote:
Bright Shadows wrote:That only works with 'toxins' that don't degrade in the animal. Mercury is a problem, for instance, so eating tuna isn't the greatest way to get your fish fix. Eating carnivores in general is not the same as eating tuna though. I really cannot think of an undegrading toxic substance that pigs would come in contact with that isn't regulated.

PCBs?.

Furthermore, you're assuming that all biomagnified toxins are man made, which is not the case. Eating herbivore-meat is already associated with increased cancer and health risks. Is it really worth increasing that risk by an order of magnitude? There are many downsides to eating lion meat, and I see little reason in favor of it. Perhaps someone can explain the appeal to me.
The same reason alcohol or smoking or eating fatty foods has, I imagine. It's enjoyable. You're eating a shitting lion. It's yummy. It's food.
I meant, why would someone eat lion meat rather than beef, which, according to a completely accurate non-anecdotal article I read, tastes about the same, if not better?

I'm not asking why people eat yummy food.

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Re: Meat should not eat meat.

Postby TaintedDeity » Sat Jun 26, 2010 9:12 pm UTC

Why do you need a different reason?
Also: "You're eating a shitting lion."
Variety is the spice of life and, in this case, the dish it's used as an ingredient in is an Awesome pie. Or something.
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Re: Meat should not eat meat.

Postby thc » Sat Jun 26, 2010 9:41 pm UTC

You know, he could just use ground beef, add in some weird flavors and CALL it lion meat, and no one would be the wiser. I feel that the "variety" and "novelty" arguments fail pretty hard, but that's probably just me.

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Re: Meat should not eat meat.

Postby Kizyr » Sat Jun 26, 2010 9:45 pm UTC

Generally... carnivores don't taste all that great compared to herbivores. I'm more of a seafood guy, but, say, shark doesn't taste anywhere near as good as most other types of fish. I'd imagine if I ate dolphin (not really willing to, but let's say I was) I'd have the same reaction.

When I used to eat more meat, I recall the same thing. Animals that were mostly herbivores tasted better. ...as for a moral argument, it's really tough to come up with one that'd specifically exclude carnivores but not herbivores. KF
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Re: Meat should not eat meat.

Postby G.v.K » Sat Jun 26, 2010 9:53 pm UTC

I can see the symbolic importance of this for the 'back to nature' types. the hubris of man strikes again.

for those of you that want a lion burger, i'd like to see you go and make one yourself. no guns allowed. just you and the lion. let's see who ends up as dinner :)

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Re: Meat should not eat meat.

Postby thc » Sat Jun 26, 2010 9:57 pm UTC

Kizyr wrote:When I used to eat more meat, I recall the same thing. Animals that were mostly herbivores tasted better. ...as for a moral argument, it's really tough to come up with one that'd specifically exclude carnivores but not herbivores. KF

To some extent, it's a matter of degree. Eating carnivores is everything wrong with eating herbivores multiplied 10 fold, since it's one step up the food chain. But I also think there are qualitative differences; the amount one should feel bad for an animal is not directly proportional to it's intelligence. Dolphins may only be 4 times more intelligent than cows, but that allows them to form families and highly sophisticated social networks. So when you kill a dolphin for food, you're also actually killing love :(

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Re: Meat should not eat meat.

Postby TaintedDeity » Sat Jun 26, 2010 10:03 pm UTC

thc wrote:You know, he could just use ground beef, add in some weird flavors and CALL it lion meat, and no one would be the wiser. I feel that the "variety" and "novelty" arguments fail pretty hard, but that's probably just me.
Yeah, that is just you and that is the important bit.
You're not the one who's eating it so why are you questioning other's motivations for eating it?
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Re: Meat should not eat meat.

Postby Mighty Jalapeno » Sat Jun 26, 2010 10:22 pm UTC

TaintedDeity wrote:
thc wrote:You know, he could just use ground beef, add in some weird flavors and CALL it lion meat, and no one would be the wiser. I feel that the "variety" and "novelty" arguments fail pretty hard, but that's probably just me.
Yeah, that is just you and that is the important bit.
You're not the one who's eating it so why are you questioning other's motivations for eating it?

I feel like you're probably an ocelot, and I feel like I want to eat you. Feeling is fun!

My cousin-in-law has resolved to eat 52 Meats in 52 Weeks, and he's already had most of the ocean, most of the game available in Canada (including squirrels) as well as whale and kangaroo and some other things. But he's got a long way to go. DON'T STEAL HIS LION!

Or at least teach it to eat tofu...

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Re: Meat should not eat meat.

Postby thc » Sat Jun 26, 2010 10:38 pm UTC

TaintedDeity wrote:You're not the one who's eating it so why are you questioning other's motivations for eating it?
What is the appeal?

You responded that it's not the lion meat per se, but the variety. If it's variety you want, you hardly need to eat lion meat to get it, especially when it hardly tastes any different than beef. There are a ton of amazing quality restaurants out there that should sate 99% of people's requirement for variety. There must be some other reason.

I care because of moral concerns, and as someone stated, this whole thing stinks of hubris. "Look at me feast upon this mighty predator! I am powerful ruler of animals! Rawr!" I suspect this is the true reasons this has been any bit successful, not some "variety" BS.

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Re: Meat should not eat meat.

Postby Glmclain » Sat Jun 26, 2010 10:42 pm UTC

It shouldn't matter what my motivation is, just like it doesn't matter what my "motivation" for eating beef is.

Even if it's for dicky, novelty reasons, I should have the legal right to eat it.

The fact a lot of you guys feel it "symbolically" is worse than eating beef doesn't matter, it's obtained legally, it's not endangered, so let me eat it.
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Re: Meat should not eat meat.

Postby TaintedDeity » Sat Jun 26, 2010 10:46 pm UTC

Hey, I'd eat a lion burger for variety. I know that a lion could fuck my shit up.
In my original post I even said that people are probably doing this because it's awesome. It's a life experience. Lions are badass and eating a lion burger is badass.
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Re: Meat should not eat meat.

Postby Glmclain » Sat Jun 26, 2010 10:50 pm UTC

That would be my reasoning too.

Just like hunting Hippo. In private game reserves you can do that. I'd want to do it on a raft with huge javelin spears.

Why? Because how cool would it be to kill a fucking giant ass hippo with a spear!?

Sometimes the novelty of things makes it all worth it.

Is it a dicky reason? Yes.

Should we be able to do it anyways? Yes.
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Re: Meat should not eat meat.

Postby Bakemaster » Sat Jun 26, 2010 10:53 pm UTC

thc wrote:There are many downsides to eating lion meat, and I see little reason in favor of it. Perhaps someone can explain the appeal to me.

Perhaps you can provide some credible citations for the assertions you've made that:
- Eating "herbivore-meat" is associated with increased cancer and health risks (compared to what, exactly?)
- Cancer and health risks increase by an order of magnitude above the former level when consuming meat of carnivores
- Eating food one step higher in the food chain increases all associated risks by a constant multiple

In any case, several different sources of appeal have been explained to you. Rather than state your objection as, "I don't think you should be allowed to choose your food based on your personal opinions," you seem to be saying that you don't think it's possible to want variety or novelty.
thc wrote:according to a completely accurate non-anecdotal article I read

Oh man, that's genius! I have to start doing this. Your ethos is impeccable.
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Re: Meat should not eat meat.

Postby thc » Sat Jun 26, 2010 11:02 pm UTC

Glmclain wrote:It shouldn't matter what my motivation is, just like it doesn't matter what my "motivation" for eating beef is.

Even if it's for dicky, novelty reasons, I should have the legal right to eat it.

The fact a lot of you guys feel it "symbolically" is worse than eating beef doesn't matter, it's obtained legally, it's not endangered, so let me eat it.

First, let me remind you that legal <> moral. It's pretty irrelevant to this discussion what the law says right now.

You do not have the right to eat whatever you want. You do not have the right to eat other humans, for example, yes, even though humans are not endangered. Most people would call that immoral as well. The qualms being raised are just an extension of this train of thought. Lions are highly intelligent beings that experience much of the same feelings, emotions, exhibit the same playfulness and social organization that humans do and should be protected. (As well as dolphins and whales).

On the other hand, if you don't find killing intelligent beings morally reprehensible, then go to a country where you can find human meat, and report back on how it tastes. At least then the argument would be consistent.

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Re: Meat should not eat meat.

Postby thc » Sat Jun 26, 2010 11:14 pm UTC

Bakemaster wrote:
thc wrote:There are many downsides to eating lion meat, and I see little reason in favor of it. Perhaps someone can explain the appeal to me.

Perhaps you can provide some credible citations for the assertions you've made that:
- Eating "herbivore-meat" is associated with increased cancer and health risks (compared to what, exactly?)

Google it. "Meat cancer risks" produced 20,000,000 results. I assumed this was a well known fact.
- Cancer and health risks increase by an order of magnitude above the former level when consuming meat of carnivores
- Eating food one step higher in the food chain increases all associated risks by a constant multiple

I meant that any toxin bio-magnified is magnified by an additional order of magnitude one step of the food chain. And so the effects of bio-magnified toxins are an additional order of magnitude. I didn't mean to imply as a fact that the total cancer risk is an order of magnitude greater. Although who knows? It very well might be.

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Re: Meat should not eat meat.

Postby Glmclain » Sat Jun 26, 2010 11:16 pm UTC

thc wrote: It's pretty irrelevant to this discussion what the law says right now.


Yes, it is. We're talking about "should he be able to do this?" which means we're debating the legality of it

thc wrote: You do not have the right to eat whatever you want. You do not have the right to eat other humans, for example, yes, even though humans are not endangered.


You're forgetting the most important part of this argument: Lions are not people and they never will be. The life of a single animal will never be more important than the life of a human precisely because we are human.


thc wrote: On the other hand, if you don't find killing intelligent beings morally reprehensible, then go to a country where you can find human meat, and report back on how it tastes. At least then the argument would be consistent.


Now you're using a very obvious strawman and putting words in my mouth. Don't do that. It's cheap and lessens your already weak argument
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Re: Meat should not eat meat.

Postby Glmclain » Sat Jun 26, 2010 11:19 pm UTC

thc wrote:
- Cancer and health risks increase by an order of magnitude above the former level when consuming meat of carnivores
- Eating food one step higher in the food chain increases all associated risks by a constant multiple

I meant that any toxin bio-magnified is magnified by an additional order of magnitude one step of the food chain. And so the effects of bio-magnified toxins are an additional order of magnitude. I didn't mean to imply as a fact that the total cancer risk is an order of magnitude greater. Although who knows? It very well might be.


So what? Shellfish and raw seafood is dangerous and we still eat it. Just because you don't personally like the idea of doing something doesn't mean nobody else should either.
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Re: Meat should not eat meat.

Postby thc » Sat Jun 26, 2010 11:21 pm UTC

Glmclain wrote:
thc wrote: It's pretty irrelevant to this discussion what the law says right now.


Yes, it is. We're talking about "should he be able to do this?" which means we're debating the legality of it

thc wrote: You do not have the right to eat whatever you want. You do not have the right to eat other humans, for example, yes, even though humans are not endangered.


You're forgetting the most important part of this argument: Lions are not people and they never will be. The life of a single animal will never be more important than the life of a human precisely because we are human.


thc wrote: On the other hand, if you don't find killing intelligent beings morally reprehensible, then go to a country where you can find human meat, and report back on how it tastes. At least then the argument would be consistent.


Now you're using a very obvious strawman and putting words in my mouth. Don't do that.

I am not putting words into your mouth, by any measure, and I also don't believe it's a strawman. I'm not forgetting the fact that lions are not humans. But if you feel that killing one intelligent being is okay, but not another just because it is human, you need to explain why. If you can't, your point of view is inconsistent.

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Re: Meat should not eat meat.

Postby Mighty Jalapeno » Sat Jun 26, 2010 11:24 pm UTC

Alcohol and tobacco kill, either directly or indirectly, more people than meat ever will. However, since humans have the ability to learn, control it's environment and make choices, these are accepted risks.

Also, a risk is not a guarantee. Eskimo / Inuuvik / other Arctic peoples are very, VERY carnivorous, and report substantially lower rates of cancer than their vegetarian-eating counterparts to the south. Just because something is a 'risk' doesn't mean you've got the LionBurgerAssCancer Death Sentence.

thc, define 'intelligent' before we go any further. I really, REALLY want to see where you're going with this.


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