Male field hockey player.

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Male field hockey player.

Postby Oregonaut » Wed Nov 17, 2010 4:00 pm UTC

Bull. Fucking. Shit.

According to this, there is a debate about the "fairness" of allowing a male to play on a field hockey team for his school. This is only an issue because he's a "he". All of these "feel good" stories about female kickers doing great in HS football get rave reviews, but flip the switch and suddenly people get their knickers in a knot. I call bullshit.
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Re: Male field hockey player.

Postby Izawwlgood » Wed Nov 17, 2010 4:07 pm UTC

Hahahahahahahaha...

To be fair, if you're going to have a coed league, you should have some rulings about an equal number of male/female players.
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Re: Male field hockey player.

Postby Lostdreams » Wed Nov 17, 2010 4:13 pm UTC

It's ok as long as he's effeminate.

Seriously though, today definitely seems like a "shoe's on the other foot" kind of day.
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Re: Male field hockey player.

Postby Oregonaut » Wed Nov 17, 2010 4:14 pm UTC

Or, you could be like the players seem to be and accept that you're going to have to plan ahead and try your hardest to stop a really good player. But calling it unfair is bunk. Saying "he's too athletic" is just pathetic.
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Re: Male field hockey player.

Postby Rackum » Wed Nov 17, 2010 4:25 pm UTC

The man likes field hockey; can't fault him for that. If there were a men's league/guy's team/whatever I'm sure he would be there, but there isn't so he is.

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Re: Male field hockey player.

Postby The Reaper » Wed Nov 17, 2010 4:30 pm UTC

Why don't people like a competition at a non-professional level again? If anything, he's making everyone have a new step on the rung to go after.

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Re: Male field hockey player.

Postby Oregonaut » Wed Nov 17, 2010 4:34 pm UTC

I don't see why we can't do this more often. Have co-ed stuff. I fought against women in CQC training many times, and they had definite advantages that I had to be careful while working around. My HS had two female wrestlers that just dominated their competiton. Let women try out, if they're athletic enough they'll do good. But don't hold men back when there is no equivalent sport for them. I couldn't swim one year in HS because I was the ONLY male to try out. I couldn't swim against the girls, because it was "unfair". Same story with soccer. I wanted to play, but there was no male team. It was bunk.
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Re: Male field hockey player.

Postby Diadem » Wed Nov 17, 2010 4:54 pm UTC

Ehm, since when is hockey a women's only sport? Here in The Netherlands we just have male and female hockey leagues, like we have in almost every sport. I thought America usually had male and female competitions as well?

Anyway, if there is only one competition everybody should be allowed to play in it. Anything else does not make sense.
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Re: Male field hockey player.

Postby Izawwlgood » Wed Nov 17, 2010 4:57 pm UTC

Nah, in America, field hockey is a female sport. At least I've never seen a male league over here. Even a coed one for that matter.
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Re: Male field hockey player.

Postby Роберт » Wed Nov 17, 2010 5:11 pm UTC

At least they're allowing him to play. It's unfortunate that you were not even allowed to participate in soccer or swimming, Oregonaut.
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Re: Male field hockey player.

Postby LaserGuy » Wed Nov 17, 2010 5:13 pm UTC

I generally disagree with the idea that sports teams at these levels should be segregating based on sex. While I might be willing to accept that at the very highest levels of sport, where all of the athletes are in peak physical condition and training, that you do see a sizable enough gender gap that it might be necessary to segregate for some sports to allow for equal competition (eg. in the 2008 Olympics, every single male sprinter in the finals, semi-finals, and most of the quarter-finals beat the women's world record by almost half a second); however, at the school level, most of the time these physical differences will be dwarfed by differences in skill and training. The idea of having men's and women's teams for sports seems really more of a historical artifact than something based on any sensible policy.

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Re: Male field hockey player.

Postby TheKrikkitWars » Wed Nov 17, 2010 5:45 pm UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:Nah, in America, field hockey is a female sport. At least I've never seen a male league over here. Even a coed one for that matter.

Similar in the UK, Boys play hockey in PE lessons, and men's leagues compete upto university level, but it's considered to be a female dominated sport, and the girls have a reputation for being far more brutal.
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Re: Male field hockey player.

Postby Oregonaut » Wed Nov 17, 2010 6:00 pm UTC

I'd play pick up games against the girls (soccer) during HS, and they'd lay it all out there against me. I was stronger, and I was quicker, but they'd give me some fairly vicious tackles. Nothing card worthy, just good hard soccer. The mid-fielders wished they could have me on the team, from what they said, because they lacked size and got pushed around a lot by Beaverton.
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Re: Male field hockey player.

Postby jakovasaur » Wed Nov 17, 2010 6:17 pm UTC

LaserGuy wrote:I generally disagree with the idea that sports teams at these levels should be segregating based on sex. While I might be willing to accept that at the very highest levels of sport, where all of the athletes are in peak physical condition and training, that you do see a sizable enough gender gap that it might be necessary to segregate for some sports to allow for equal competition (eg. in the 2008 Olympics, every single male sprinter in the finals, semi-finals, and most of the quarter-finals beat the women's world record by almost half a second); however, at the school level, most of the time these physical differences will be dwarfed by differences in skill and training. The idea of having men's and women's teams for sports seems really more of a historical artifact than something based on any sensible policy.

I think you are really underestimating the discrepancy between athletic ability in men and women. The high school level definitely needs to be segregated. If, for example, a high school had just one soccer team or one basketball team, I doubt any girls would make the team at all. Even at that level, boys are just too big and fast.

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Re: Male field hockey player.

Postby Oregonaut » Wed Nov 17, 2010 6:25 pm UTC

Yes, there needs to be segregation, but if it is co-ed, or there is only one team, then it needs to allow anyone who wants to, to play.
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Re: Male field hockey player.

Postby Izawwlgood » Wed Nov 17, 2010 6:27 pm UTC

This thread is going to RAPIDLY fill up with anecdotes about highschool experiences; so, to get the ball rolling:
I played water polo in high school, and tore both rotater cuffs, on separate occasions, because of incredibly tough female athletes. I recall being faced off against dudes who out weighed me by 75 lbs and being able to out skill them, but the vast majority of my experience playing against the varsity womens team for just practices made me terrified of most of those gals.

So, sure, whatever. If it's a coed team, they should ensure that there are fairly equal males:females.
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Re: Male field hockey player.

Postby jakovasaur » Wed Nov 17, 2010 6:37 pm UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:So, sure, whatever. If it's a coed team, they should ensure that there are fairly equal males:females.

But if you have that sort of quota system, then you can't field the best team. Sport is supposed to be a meritocracy, and the only way to make sure that the best players get to play, and girls get to play too, is to have gender-segregated teams.

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Re: Male field hockey player.

Postby Oregonaut » Wed Nov 17, 2010 6:40 pm UTC

Why? You wouldn't be able to field a team in many cases at that point. How many males want to play field hockey? How many women want to play field hockey? You don't want situations where there is a "token chick", but at the same time, you don't want to prevent a team from forming simply because the men can't be assed.

Jako, that won't work either. It sucked ass to not be able to play two sports I loved because I couldn't go to another HS, and my HS didn't have any interest in those sports. I was able to play basketball and football, but couldn't play soccer or swimming. I missed out on great team building, and a chance to interact with women on an equal footing, because of a black and white rule.
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Re: Male field hockey player.

Postby Lostdreams » Wed Nov 17, 2010 6:43 pm UTC

When I was in high school I was on the..... wait.... that's right... I didn't play sports. I played video games. They were co-ed! :D
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Re: Male field hockey player.

Postby jakovasaur » Wed Nov 17, 2010 6:49 pm UTC

.
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Re: Male field hockey player.

Postby Oregonaut » Wed Nov 17, 2010 7:23 pm UTC

And I'm not ok with taking away opportunities for anyone simply because people are getting beat. That's the wrong lesson to take from things like this. It is one player, one player has a big impact, but is not the entire team.
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Re: Male field hockey player.

Postby Azrael » Wed Nov 17, 2010 7:39 pm UTC

Oregonaut wrote:According to this, there is a debate about the "fairness" of allowing a male to play on a field hockey team for his school. This is only an issue because he's a "he". All of these "feel good" stories about female kickers doing great in HS football get rave reviews, but flip the switch and suddenly people get their knickers in a knot. I call bullshit.

Gender segregation is only bullshit if you believe men and women have equitable athletic ability. Most indicators do not hold that to be true.

While you can put a 6th grader in the 8th grade spelling bee and be proud of an unusually good performance, placing a normally performing 8th grader in the 6th grade spelling bee is just ... cheating.

In the case of a non-gender segregated league, there's nothing the administrations can or should do. But the players and parents have every right to state their (factually supported) opinion that the lone male player provides an unequal advantage -- just like having a female college athlete compete at the high school level would. The easiest 'solution' to the situation is a double edged sword: recruiting more men will necessarily displace female participants. And fairly often (in the US), women's field hockey teams are the Title IX opportunity balance for the all-men's football team, providing the (legally required) equal number of opportunities to compete amongst peers of comparable ability.

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Re: Male field hockey player.

Postby Роберт » Wed Nov 17, 2010 7:48 pm UTC

Azrael wrote:
Oregonaut wrote:According to this, there is a debate about the "fairness" of allowing a male to play on a field hockey team for his school. This is only an issue because he's a "he". All of these "feel good" stories about female kickers doing great in HS football get rave reviews, but flip the switch and suddenly people get their knickers in a knot. I call bullshit.

Gender segregation is only bullshit if you believe men and women have equitable athletic ability. Most indicators do not hold that to be true.

I remember having this argument before... again, just because the top 10 runners are black doesn't mean that we should segregate high school teams.

And it DEFINITELY doesn't mean that blacks should be barred from playing at all if there is no black-only team available.
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Re: Male field hockey player.

Postby Azrael » Wed Nov 17, 2010 7:55 pm UTC

Yeah, it's not a new disagreement. High performing competitive teams will naturally trend towards being comprised of the best available participants. In high school athletics those best available participants will be men at a higher ratio than the male:female ratio of the applicant pool.

The debate comes down to whether society wants to provide equal performance-level opportunity for women.

The comparison to color is the flip scenario: The traditionally marginalized group is excelling and is over-represented. Plus as far as I know, the dominance is less directly tied to the physical strength / kinematic differences [socio-economics is often pointed to as a large factor, especially in basketball] and is far less rigorously (scientifically) linked to race.

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Re: Male field hockey player.

Postby Oregonaut » Wed Nov 17, 2010 8:10 pm UTC

Fixing the post. Now I'm confused.

So because they're poor, they're good at basketball?
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Re: Male field hockey player.

Postby 22/7 » Wed Nov 17, 2010 8:22 pm UTC

I'm not all that familiar with the sport, but having men and women competing on the same field in any sport where size and speed present an advantage is going to cause increasing levels of advantage to the men on the field as level of play increases. From what my girlfriend tells me about her high school games, I would expect that an athletically built male would be unfairly advantaged. I guess it's unfortunate that he doesn't have a male league to play in but that kind of thing happens all the time. I would have liked to have had lacrosse at my school and that wasn't available. Dunno, seems like a bit of a non-issue to me.
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Re: Male field hockey player.

Postby Aetius » Wed Nov 17, 2010 8:33 pm UTC

Oregonaut wrote:Fixing the post. Now I'm confused.

So because they're poor, they're good at basketball?


Not sure how true the argument is, but I believe the argument goes something like: Because they're poor, they're more likely to gamble on a future in athletics. There is less opportunity cost to do so as compared to someone who can coast into a middle class life just by getting their homework done and focusing on getting into a decent college.

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Re: Male field hockey player.

Postby Oregonaut » Wed Nov 17, 2010 8:39 pm UTC

Yeah, I'm likely going to need stats here.
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Re: Male field hockey player.

Postby Роберт » Wed Nov 17, 2010 8:53 pm UTC

Azrael wrote:...and is far less rigorously (scientifically) linked to race.

I certainly agree... is race even a scientific thing at all? And you are right, it is different to a degree because of the reversal.

I still don't think it's a good situation for someone to not be allowed to participate in a sport at all just because of their sex or gender. I'm okay with segregating into men's and women's teams if there is enough interest. I dislike the idea of having something "men only" or "women only" without a counterpart available, though.
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Re: Male field hockey player.

Postby Azrael » Wed Nov 17, 2010 9:03 pm UTC

Prior to Роберт, people have missed my point:

The disparity in proportion of black men in basketball and football is widely debated, and is yet lacking a solid scientific link to racial differences. In absence of a single readily attributable factor, other things become part of the equation. Culture, economics, etc etc typically find their way into the discussion -- there are whole books on the discussion, and the specifics of that debate are pretty tangential here. Conversely, it's comparatively easy to scientifically tie the difference between men and women's performance at the same sport to gender-based differences in stature, musculature etc. Difference between men and women in sports; pretty easily explainable. Difference between white and blacks; not so simple. Thus, comparison of this situation to a racial counterpart is tenuous.

So again, a single 6th grader competing with the 8th graders vs a single 8th grader competing with the 6th graders.

Роберт wrote:I still don't think it's a good situation for someone to not be allowed to participate in a sport at all just because of their sex or gender. I'm okay with segregating into men's and women's teams if there is enough interest. I dislike the idea of having something "men only" or "women only" without a counterpart available, though.
Sounds good to me.

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Re: Male field hockey player.

Postby Oregonaut » Wed Nov 17, 2010 9:09 pm UTC

I think I'm just thinking to hard about Ayn Rand here.

I feel they're punishing success, and treating the women like they should be "protected" from serious competition in a co-ed league.
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Re: Male field hockey player.

Postby Azrael » Wed Nov 17, 2010 9:14 pm UTC

I'll quote 22/7 so I don't have to quote myself:
22/7 wrote:... having men and women competing on the same field in any sport where size and speed present an advantage is going to cause increasing levels of advantage to the men on the field as level of play increases.

And it is widely considered to be a problem if you drum all of the women out of sports. Of course, you may disagree with that opinion.

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Re: Male field hockey player.

Postby emceng » Wed Nov 17, 2010 9:17 pm UTC

My problem with this is the unintended consequences - namely what will happen when the Title 9 people get hold of this. All of a sudden field hockey will be a co-ed sport, so the college will have to axe a male sport to keep the numbers balanced. Gah, Title 9 is one of those things that just induces rage. It may have the laudable goal of encouraging women's sports, but it was horribly implemented. Good intentions do not make good public policy.
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Re: Male field hockey player.

Postby ++$_ » Wed Nov 17, 2010 9:19 pm UTC

I think there's something to be said for everyone playing in a league of the appropriate skill level. That's one reason we have different levels of sports. If you are an 18-year-old baseball player, you don't play in the Little League. You play on your college team.

But in this case, the college field hockey team is the highest level of play available for Mr. Tietze. I think it's entirely appropriate that he be allowed to play there. I don't think it's fair to kick someone out of a league for being too good at the sport, unless there is another league you can transfer them to.

As for Title IX, I don't see why women's football teams are so rare in this country. I mean, there are lots of female rugby teams.

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Re: Male field hockey player.

Postby Oregonaut » Wed Nov 17, 2010 9:19 pm UTC

But if the league has stated it is co-ed...Az, I'm saying the league has ok'd this guy to play, now because he is suddenly playing well they want to pull him, that's not cool. Should we yank this lady off of the wrestling team one of the kids on my street is on, because she is flat kicking ass. It's co-ed. That's what everyone signed up for. How is that fair to suddenly punish success?
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Re: Male field hockey player.

Postby Azrael » Wed Nov 17, 2010 9:21 pm UTC

++$_ wrote:As for Title IX, I don't see why women's football teams are so rare in this country. I mean, there are lots of female rugby teams.
Expense? Even at lower levels, college football programs cost a shit-ton of money. As for intramural, I don't know -- perhaps the only people interested have already taken up rugby?

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Re: Male field hockey player.

Postby Dauric » Wed Nov 17, 2010 9:22 pm UTC

And the discussion at this point reflects why so many colleges and high-schools are constantly in violation of Title IX as it is applied to sports programs. High-school and college level athletics are too competitive (and often with financial considerations) to allow for serious physiological differences in team members, and there's no guarantee that there will be enough interest by <gender> in <sporting program> to be able to have both male and female teams, so there's weird metrics that have come out of various litigation (some legislation, but mostly litigation) to say that so many <sport A> programs are equivalent to participation in <sport B> so a school can remain in compliance, but none of these are really 'equal'..... Ad infinitum.

emceng wrote:My problem with this is the unintended consequences - namely what will happen when the Title 9 people get hold of this. All of a sudden field hockey will be a co-ed sport, so the college will have to axe a male sport to keep the numbers balanced. Gah, Title 9 is one of those things that just induces rage. It may have the laudable goal of encouraging women's sports, but it was horribly implemented. Good intentions do not make good public policy.


Actually Title IX does not specifically state anything about sports, it's formal name is "Title IX of the Education Amendments of 1972" which states:

United States Code Section 20 wrote:No person in the United States shall, on the basis of sex, be excluded from participation in, be denied the benefits of, or be subjected to discrimination under any education program or activity receiving Federal financial assistance...


So this includes college classes, federal scholarships, federal grants, etc., etc., etc.

The problem is that it's one of those eloquently short pieces of legislation that in it's brevity fails to deal with certain details, like athletics, that make a headache for everyone trying to figure out how to apply it.
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Re: Male field hockey player.

Postby ++$_ » Wed Nov 17, 2010 9:27 pm UTC

Azrael wrote:
++$_ wrote:As for Title IX, I don't see why women's football teams are so rare in this country. I mean, there are lots of female rugby teams.
Expense? Even at lower levels, college football programs cost a shit-ton of money. As for intramural, I don't know -- perhaps the only people interested have already taken up rugby?
Yeah, I guess that makes sense.

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Re: Male field hockey player.

Postby *bird » Wed Nov 17, 2010 9:27 pm UTC

Oregonaut wrote:Fixing the post. Now I'm confused.

So because they're poor, they're good at basketball?


No. The argument is because they're poor, they're likely to pick sports that require the least amount of equipment to play (soccer and basketball). More people in a sport would translate into more athletes in that sport.

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Re: Male field hockey player.

Postby Azrael » Wed Nov 17, 2010 9:36 pm UTC

Oregonaut wrote:How is that fair to suddenly punish success?
No one is? The parents have expressed that they think it's an unfair advantage -- akin to having (for example) someone several years older play. They think it's cheating.

They're not wrong about it being an advantage. They are wrong that it's unfair, assuming that it's a co-ed league. Just like I said earlier, they have every right to complain and the current complete lack of action by any administration or official regarding that complaint is perfectly proper.
Last edited by Azrael on Wed Nov 17, 2010 9:39 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.


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