Next wikileaks release to be about 7X as large as Iraq Logs

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Next wikileaks release to be about 7X as large as Iraq Logs

Postby Syntax » Thu Nov 25, 2010 7:46 pm UTC

And our government is promptly shitting their pants:http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2010/11/24/wikileaks-ottawa.html



U.S. officials say the documents may contain accounts of compromising conversations with political dissidents and friendly politicians and could result in the expulsion of U.S. diplomats from foreign postings.



http://twitter.com/wikileaks/status/6581472060252160

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Re: Next wikileaks release to be about 7X as large as Iraq L

Postby Greyarcher » Thu Nov 25, 2010 9:05 pm UTC

Ugh, 7x? I imagine the majority of it will be quite dull, but I'm curious what interesting bits people will manage to ferret out of it.
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Re: Next wikileaks release to be about 7X as large as Iraq L

Postby Jessica » Thu Nov 25, 2010 9:14 pm UTC

I wonder how big a hit in foreign relations this will be. I wonder if we (Canadians) will care in the end.
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Re: Next wikileaks release to be about 7X as large as Iraq L

Postby Syntax » Thu Nov 25, 2010 9:26 pm UTC

Jessica wrote:I wonder how big a hit in foreign relations this will be. I wonder if we (Canadians) will care in the end.



I can just see it now...

"According to classified Pentagon documents released Tuesday by Wikileaks, the whistleblower website founded by the controversial Julian Assange, Canadian beer sucks. War has been unanimously declared and casualties are inordinate..."

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Re: Next wikileaks release to be about 7X as large as Iraq L

Postby Jessica » Thu Nov 25, 2010 9:33 pm UTC

*picks up a rifle and aims it at syntax*
Take that back!
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Re: Next wikileaks release to be about 7X as large as Iraq L

Postby Qaanol » Thu Nov 25, 2010 9:58 pm UTC

The problem I have is that my government is engaging in actions which, when they become public knowledge, are damaging to relations with allied countries.

Dear United States government, on behalf of myself, being one of the citizens you represent, please stop doing this shit.

It’s one thing if leaked documents enable some dictator to identify pro-democracy activists, resulting in their being jailed or executed. But if the problem is just that the leaked information will cause embarrassment and make the United States look bad then seriously, stop doing things that will make us look bad. And when something happens that would make us look bad should it become public, please do us all a favor, show some responsibility, demonstrate respect for our allies, and make it public right away, voluntarily.

“National Security” is not an excuse to avoid getting caught in a bad light. It is a valid concern, whose validity is tarnished and made a mockery of when it is used as an excuse to hide things that are not, in fact, vital to the security of the nation.

I say all government documents should automatically become public 6 months after they are written, with very few exceptions which would have to be ruled as such on an individual basis by a court of law. And even then I think a limit of 5 years should be the max on keeping any government document secret.
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Re: Next wikileaks release to be about 7X as large as Iraq L

Postby Triangle_Man » Thu Nov 25, 2010 10:01 pm UTC

I wonder what the contents of those documents are? From the sounds of it, they contain some pretty signifigant information...
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Re: Next wikileaks release to be about 7X as large as Iraq L

Postby nitePhyyre » Thu Nov 25, 2010 10:03 pm UTC

The way I read the article is that it isn't the content of the leaks that will damage relations with allies, just the fact that secret stuff that shouldn't be leaked is getting leaked.

So we are talking about what? 700,000 documents leaked? It seems like wikileaks should just release the juicy tidbits.
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Re: Next wikileaks release to be about 7X as large as Iraq L

Postby Syntax » Fri Nov 26, 2010 2:29 am UTC

Triangle_Man wrote:I wonder what the contents of those documents are? From the sounds of it, they contain some pretty signifigant information...



Well wikileaks seems to be down right now. Interestingly, THIS LINK was tweeted from wikileaks' account. It appears to be an encytped file. I think the point is we're all supposed to download it just in case something bad goes down, whereupon a key will be given.

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Re: Next wikileaks release to be about 7X as large as Iraq L

Postby PeterCai » Fri Nov 26, 2010 3:12 am UTC

In politic, you don't stop doing shit just because it might look bad, especially in the international stage. So yeah.

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Re: Next wikileaks release to be about 7X as large as Iraq L

Postby SlyReaper » Fri Nov 26, 2010 10:47 am UTC

nitePhyyre wrote:So we are talking about what? 700,000 documents leaked? It seems like wikileaks should just release the juicy tidbits.

Then they would be rightly accused of cherry picking facts out of context.
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Re: Next wikileaks release to be about 7X as large as Iraq L

Postby Solt » Fri Nov 26, 2010 1:09 pm UTC

Qaanol wrote:The problem I have is that my government is engaging in actions which, when they become public knowledge, are damaging to relations with allied countries.

Dear United States government, on behalf of myself, being one of the citizens you represent, please stop doing this shit.

It’s one thing if leaked documents enable some dictator to identify pro-democracy activists, resulting in their being jailed or executed. But if the problem is just that the leaked information will cause embarrassment and make the United States look bad then seriously, stop doing things that will make us look bad. And when something happens that would make us look bad should it become public, please do us all a favor, show some responsibility, demonstrate respect for our allies, and make it public right away, voluntarily.

“National Security” is not an excuse to avoid getting caught in a bad light. It is a valid concern, whose validity is tarnished and made a mockery of when it is used as an excuse to hide things that are not, in fact, vital to the security of the nation.

I say all government documents should automatically become public 6 months after they are written, with very few exceptions which would have to be ruled as such on an individual basis by a court of law. And even then I think a limit of 5 years should be the max on keeping any government document secret.



Didn't your mother ever tell you that it's ok to not care about what other people think of you?

I think it can apply to international diplomacy too.
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Re: Next wikileaks release to be about 7X as large as Iraq L

Postby Gellert1984 » Fri Nov 26, 2010 1:41 pm UTC

Solt wrote:
Didn't your mother ever tell you that it's ok to not care about what other people think of you?

I think it can apply to international diplomacy too.


If that were true governments wouldn't bitch when all there dirty little secrets get leaked.
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Re: Next wikileaks release to be about 7X as large as Iraq L

Postby Le1bn1z » Fri Nov 26, 2010 7:48 pm UTC

Some sample headlines coming up:

"MIDDLE RANKING MANAGERS FIND MAKING FUN OF OTHERS IN SAME BUSINESS TO BE FUNNY"
"REPUBLICAN OFFICE HOLDERS DON'T LIKE PUBLIC HEALTHCARE; CONFUSE NATIONAL SERVICES WITH "COMMUNISM""
"AMERICANS WISH OTHERS WOULD HAVE LARGER MILITARIES; RESENT BEARING BRUNT OF NATO DEFENSE"
"ORGANISATION OF THOUSANDS HAS GUYS WHO MAKE OFF COLOUR JOKES, COMMENTS -- BUTT OF JOKE OFFENDED."
"REPUBLICANS WANT TO INCREASE BORDER SECURITY, BECAUSE CANADA HAS LESS BORDER SECURITY"
"CLANDESTINE SERVICES RESPONSIBLE FOR OTHER COUNTRIES ACTED CLANDESTINELY IN OTHER COUNTRIES"
"SECRET SERVICES KEPT SECRETS FROM PEOPLE NOT IN SERVICE"

The Onion should be the only organisation allowed to report on the impending release.

If there is anything at all surprising, novel or shocking from these releases, I'll pay a sparkling new penny to the person who shows it to me.

Mostly, it will be stuff everyone already knows, but doesn't talk about. "SHOCK! Diplomats acted duplicitously in trade negotiations." Oh boy. Hold the presses.
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Re: Next wikileaks release to be about 7X as large as Iraq L

Postby Qaanol » Fri Nov 26, 2010 10:11 pm UTC

Indeed, I’ll be surprised if someone can find even a single piece of information in this or either of the previous two large US leaks through WikiLeaks, that can be shown to have caused civilian death, dissident incarceration, soldiers to be ambushed, or enabled Osama Bin Laden to escape from our troops.

In other words, I’ll be shocked if there’s anything at all that shouldn’t have been public long ago.
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Re: Next wikileaks release to be about 7X as large as Iraq L

Postby Dark567 » Fri Nov 26, 2010 10:12 pm UTC

Le1bn1z wrote:"MIDDLE RANKING MANAGERS FIND MAKING FUN OF OTHERS IN SAME BUSINESS TO BE FUNNY"...
...
Mostly, it will be stuff everyone already knows, but doesn't talk about. "SHOCK! Diplomats acted duplicitously in trade negotiations." Oh boy. Hold the presses.
This is basically what I read from it right away. How many times have a few graduate students made fun of another PI's students. When I work with other companies, if they are incompetent, I send emails to other people in my company letting them know. If that other company found out, will they like it? No, probably not. But they probably do the same thing internally. This is really the same thing that goes on with any interactions between two large bureaucratic organizations, just on a larger level.
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Re: Next wikileaks release to be about 7X as large as Iraq L

Postby Qaanol » Sat Nov 27, 2010 2:10 am UTC

Dark567 wrote:This is basically what I read from it right away. How many times have a few graduate students made fun of another PI's students. When I work with other companies, if they are incompetent, I send emails to other people in my company letting them know. If that other company found out, will they like it? No, probably not. But they probably do the same thing internally. This is really the same thing that goes on with any interactions between two large bureaucratic organizations, just on a larger level.

Right. The difference is, when the “company” is the United States Government, any documents produced in an official capacity should not be kept secret from the people who are represented by said government, unless lives are put serious danger by that document becoming public.
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Re: Next wikileaks release to be about 7X as large as Iraq L

Postby Arete » Sat Nov 27, 2010 2:27 am UTC

Right.


You're all working in some kind of bizzarro land where this was all news? Where wikileaks is like "shocking" and "Oh me yarm new"?

Like.. WMDs existed?
Or.. the CIA didn't train Osama Bin Ladin?
Or the US government didn't fly the current Iraqi leader in from exile?
Or the US government didn't manufacture all those "tearing down the statues of Saddam" films?
Or.. The CIA didn't sponsor Opium trade in Afghanistan in return for stability?
Or.. Private Mercs were running hit squads in Afghanistan under the funding of the CIA?
Or.. Assassination style missions against mid-level targets weren't being run every day?
[and so on]

Most of those with a clue knew about them... before, or about 10 seconds after they happened.



Seriously. I could go on, but if Wiki-leaks is shocking to you, you need to wake the fuck up. Wikileaks is about as forefront as The Washington Post.



I'd laugh, but its tragic an "intelligent" forum is so lacking in.. basic knowledge.

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Re: Next wikileaks release to be about 7X as large as Iraq L

Postby Qaanol » Sat Nov 27, 2010 2:34 am UTC

Arete wrote:Or the US government didn't manufacture all those "tearing down the statues of Saddam" films?

This is news to me. When you say “manufacture” do you mean “owned and operated the cameras” or “gave out goodies so people would be smiling and cheering” or “brought in fake statues that weren’t there before, set them up, and filmed themselves tearing them down” or something else? Also, source?
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Re: Next wikileaks release to be about 7X as large as Iraq L

Postby Arete » Sat Nov 27, 2010 2:44 am UTC

Qaanol wrote:
Arete wrote:Or the US government didn't manufacture all those "tearing down the statues of Saddam" films?

This is news to me. When you say “manufacture” do you mean “owned and operated the cameras” or “gave out goodies so people would be smiling and cheering” or “brought in fake statues that weren’t there before, set them up, and filmed themselves tearing them down” or something else? Also, source?



How fucking ignorant are you?

Here
Here


Its been common knowledge since it happened...


Gee. Wizz.

Want me to get the actual Division OPLAN for it?


Oh, and if you're worried about my 10 second google link to a well known story, do your own damn research and find the other 10,000 links to it being proved.


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Re: Next wikileaks release to be about 7X as large as Iraq L

Postby The Reaper » Sat Nov 27, 2010 3:39 am UTC

Arete wrote:stuff

Angry much?

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Re: Next wikileaks release to be about 7X as large as Iraq L

Postby Qaanol » Sat Nov 27, 2010 7:45 am UTC

So what you’re saying is, the US government did not, in fact, “manufacture” any of those “tearing down the statues of Saddam” films in any sense of the word. The films were accurately recorded by independent media organizations.

What the US government did was plan and organize the event, locate a number of Iraqi civilians willing to participate, inform the independent media organizations of what as going to take place, and sealed off a perimeter around the statue while it occurred.

I’m not sure why you included this event among the others. Well, this, and flying the current Iraqi leader in from exile. I don’t really see a problem with either of those things. The Iraqi elections may have been heavily influenced by foreign campaigning, but the votes were still cast freely by Iraqi citizens and to my knowledge were counted fairly.

The other items on your list are indeed sources of embarrassment for the US, and they are exactly the sorts of things I prefer my government cease to carry out, and publicly admit to shortly after the fact.
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Re: Next wikileaks release to be about 7X as large as Iraq L

Postby Arancaytar » Sat Nov 27, 2010 11:37 am UTC

Arete wrote:Seriously. I could go on, but if Wiki-leaks is shocking to you, you need to wake the fuck up. Wikileaks is about as forefront as The Washington Post.


So the information published by Wikileaks is not new information, and should be known to everyone already, but publishing it threatens national security, is morally reprehensible and causes the United States top diplomats to scurry around in panic.
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Re: Next wikileaks release to be about 7X as large as Iraq L

Postby Gellert1984 » Sat Nov 27, 2010 12:34 pm UTC

Arancaytar wrote:
Arete wrote:Seriously. I could go on, but if Wiki-leaks is shocking to you, you need to wake the fuck up. Wikileaks is about as forefront as The Washington Post.


So the information published by Wikileaks is not new information, and should be known to everyone already, but publishing it threatens national security, is morally reprehensible and causes the United States top diplomats to scurry around in panic.


There is, it should be noted, a difference between knowing Soylent Green is people and having proof Soylent Green is people.
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Re: Next wikileaks release to be about 7X as large as Iraq L

Postby Le1bn1z » Sat Nov 27, 2010 7:34 pm UTC

Qaanol wrote:
Dark567 wrote:This is basically what I read from it right away. How many times have a few graduate students made fun of another PI's students. When I work with other companies, if they are incompetent, I send emails to other people in my company letting them know. If that other company found out, will they like it? No, probably not. But they probably do the same thing internally. This is really the same thing that goes on with any interactions between two large bureaucratic organizations, just on a larger level.

Right. The difference is, when the “company” is the United States Government, any documents produced in an official capacity should not be kept secret from the people who are represented by said government, unless lives are put serious danger by that document becoming public.


There are different reasons for why things are kept private, many of them quite banal and human.

For example, protecting American/Canadian/Paupa New Guinean interests require 1.) That diplomats/soldiers/civil servants be able to give honest opinions to superiors 2.) that the same maintain a public front to the audience of foreign countries and 3.) That people realise that they're human beings.

If a diplomat believes Canadian Minister of Industry Tony Clement is a flake, and needs special handling, then the State Department should know that. However, it really doesn't help Canada-US relations for State Department Officials to start shoulding around Washington, Ottawa and Luxembourg that Clement is a flake. So, they keep that sort of thing private. Its not fascism, its not conspiracy; its diplomacy.

I'd be willing to bet that 98% of what's about to be released is run of the miss diplomacy, the embarassment of which could easily be replecated if this stunt was pulled on any country in the world.

All that this accomplishes is making the American State Department even less able to do its job. The basic ability of the President, Congress or anyone else to make informed decisions in the interest of Americans becomes severely diminished if diplomats are unable to count upon an environment of basic professional discretion.

Moreover, as human beings, I think that diplomats should have the right to vent with colleagues without it being taken out of context and causing a major international incident.

As it is, Wikileaks will need to release somethign durastic to retain credibility with me. The shocking revelation that members of the American State Department had a low view of Paul Martin will not go a long way to convincing Canadians that they and America are not close friends.
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Re: Next wikileaks release to be about 7X as large as Iraq L

Postby Arancaytar » Sun Nov 28, 2010 9:06 am UTC

Gellert1984 wrote:
Arancaytar wrote:
Arete wrote:Seriously. I could go on, but if Wiki-leaks is shocking to you, you need to wake the fuck up. Wikileaks is about as forefront as The Washington Post.


So the information published by Wikileaks is not new information, and should be known to everyone already, but publishing it threatens national security, is morally reprehensible and causes the United States top diplomats to scurry around in panic.


There is, it should be noted, a difference between knowing Soylent Green is people and having proof Soylent Green is people.


Knowing it without having proof seems a bit like "knowing" the government did 9/11.
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Re: Next wikileaks release to be about 7X as large as Iraq L

Postby yedidyak » Sun Nov 28, 2010 7:07 pm UTC

And its started.

With major revelations such as:
The Guardian wrote:At the start of a series of daily extracts from the US embassy cables - many of which are designated "secret" – the Guardian can disclose that Arab leaders are privately urging an air strike on Iran and that US officials have been instructed to spy on the UN's leadership.

These two revelations alone would be likely to reverberate around the world. But the secret dispatches which were obtained by WikiLeaks, the whistlebowers' website, also reveal Washington's evaluation of many other highly sensitive international issues.

These include a major shift in relations between China and North Korea, Pakistan's growing instability and details of clandestine US efforts to combat al-Qaida in Yemen.

Among scores of other disclosures that are likely to cause uproar, the cables detail:

• Grave fears in Washington and London over the security of Pakistan's nuclear weapons programme

• Alleged links between the Russian government and organised crime.

• Devastating criticism of the UK's military operations in Afghanistan.

• Claims of inappropriate behaviour by a member of the British royal family.
source

I personally dont think that anything will be gained by posting the vast majority of these documents. So what if a US diplomat in London doesnt like Cameron? The only thing that comes out of that being publicised is that the relationship between the UK and US is damaged. If I text a friend saying that my partner annoys me, it wouldnt be right in any way for anybody to intercept that text and show it to my partner.

It seems to me that its naive to expect governments to have no secrets. The main result of this will be that foreign governments will have to be much more careful when speaking to US representatives, for example the Gulf States who cannot state their fears of Iran publicly now wont trust the US to be able to intervene without inadvertently leaking their fears to their publics.

Of course there will be a few of these, maybe the ones linking the Putin/Medvedev government to organised crime that should be published, but again, by leaking it from US embassy sources it damages the US more than the real criminals.

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Re: Next wikileaks release to be about 7X as large as Iraq L

Postby G.v.K » Sun Nov 28, 2010 10:38 pm UTC

good on Wikileaks. the practical effect of this is to show the diplomatic 'industry' for what it is - a bunch of snivelling, conniving arse-lickers trading in the sort of petty gossip you might see among the old women at the local lawn bowls club. if these people absolutely must exist, then i think it's healthy to have a nice chuckle at their expense every now and again.

as for them not talking to the US in the future - this is politics. if I'm a good little politician, I tell the US what I want to the US to hear. the fact that it might end up on wikileaks a couple of years later is highly unlikely to factor into my considerations.

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Re: Next wikileaks release to be about 7X as large as Iraq L

Postby iop » Sun Nov 28, 2010 11:10 pm UTC

I hope they get their hands on Russian and Chinese data soon.

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Re: Next wikileaks release to be about 7X as large as Iraq L

Postby yedidyak » Sun Nov 28, 2010 11:18 pm UTC

iop wrote:I hope they get their hands on Russian and Chinese data soon.


Not as trendy. Plus, I wouldn't sell life insurance to anyone who leaks it.

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Re: Next wikileaks release to be about 7X as large as Iraq L

Postby The Reaper » Sun Nov 28, 2010 11:32 pm UTC

iop wrote:I hope they get their hands on Russian and Chinese data soon.

That would probably be a gold mine of fun facts.

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Re: Next wikileaks release to be about 7X as large as Iraq L

Postby CorruptUser » Mon Nov 29, 2010 3:09 am UTC

So... does Wikileaks report data from countries other than the US?

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Re: Next wikileaks release to be about 7X as large as Iraq L

Postby BlackSails » Mon Nov 29, 2010 3:13 am UTC

yedidyak wrote:
iop wrote:I hope they get their hands on Russian and Chinese data soon.


Not as trendy. Plus, I wouldn't sell life insurance to anyone who leaks it.


Seriously. If they tried that, I would be rather surprised if wikileaks and its founder were around a few months later. Sort of hard to publish leaks when you are dying from radiation poisoning or something like that.

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Re: Next wikileaks release to be about 7X as large as Iraq L

Postby Solt » Mon Nov 29, 2010 3:37 am UTC

Yea I've changed my mind.

I mean, revealing massacres by the military is one thing and is totally cool with me.

But this is actually going to jeopardize our national security. And for what? To let the world know that Arab leaders want to bomb Iran? WHO IS THAT POSSIBLY GOING TO HELP. And in my opinion it would be pretty irresponsible if we weren't spying on UN leaders and their cadre. I mean these people have diplomatic immunity and the ability to enter and exit the United States at will. It would be pretty irresponsible for us to allow someone with ties to terrorists or organized crime to carry about their business right under our noses.

And the thing that really pisses me off is that they're picking on the US because we're the biggest kids on the block, and the target everyone would actually care about AND the ones least likely to assassinate someone like Assange. The fucking Russians, they do whatever they want but we have to be the good guys and WE get picked on, not them.

Of course this isn't directly Wikileaks' fault. I can't really blame them. The real fault lies with the American security apparatus itself. I mean how the hell do you have such a gapingly huge digital hole at such high levels of government. That's the real scandal here.
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Re: Next wikileaks release to be about 7X as large as Iraq L

Postby Gelsamel » Mon Nov 29, 2010 3:43 am UTC

BlackSails wrote:Sort of hard to publish leaks when you are dying from radiation poisoning or something like that.


Har har.




Anyway if we know the Arab leaders want to bomb Iran doesn't that help... Iran? Also all us people who like to know the truth.
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Re: Next wikileaks release to be about 7X as large as Iraq L

Postby Hawknc » Mon Nov 29, 2010 3:50 am UTC

Fun fact: Australian webmasters can now be fined up to $11,000 per day for linking to Wikileaks after it was added to the banned sites list. That means, should the web filter be implemented, Wikileaks won't be accessible from inside the country. Apparently someone high up took offence to what was in that information.

Edit: the article is actually a year old, so it wasn't triggered by recent events, but that...doesn't exactly make it better.

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Re: Next wikileaks release to be about 7X as large as Iraq L

Postby Gelsamel » Mon Nov 29, 2010 3:52 am UTC

I remember an article mentioning a call from Hillary Clinton to Rudd, I wonder if that was related...
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Re: Next wikileaks release to be about 7X as large as Iraq L

Postby Solt » Mon Nov 29, 2010 3:59 am UTC

Gelsamel wrote:Anyway if we know the Arab leaders want to bomb Iran doesn't that help... Iran? Also all us people who like to know the truth.


I would love to know the details of every top secret CIA and DoD program. It would probably be some of the most entertaining stuff you could possibly know, better than every James Bond and Tom Clancy novel/movie combined.

Doesn't mean it's a good idea for me to actually find out, however.
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Re: Next wikileaks release to be about 7X as large as Iraq L

Postby Internetmeme » Mon Nov 29, 2010 4:58 am UTC

Solt wrote:
Gelsamel wrote:Anyway if we know the Arab leaders want to bomb Iran doesn't that help... Iran? Also all us people who like to know the truth.


I would love to know the details of every top secret CIA and DoD program. It would probably be some of the most entertaining stuff you could possibly know, better than every James Bond and Tom Clancy novel/movie combined.

Doesn't mean it's a good idea for me to actually find out, however.


Eh, just wait about fifty years. It'll get declassified eventually.
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Re: Next wikileaks release to be about 7X as large as Iraq L

Postby Greyarcher » Mon Nov 29, 2010 5:40 am UTC

Hmm. Somehow, the releases feel a bit like someone recorded telephone calls a celebrity made for a few years and then published them all just because. Which is to say, it seems gratuitous, indiscrete, and of rather dubious ethicality.

But that's just my impression from browsing a quite minute fraction of the material. Perhaps I will later see something which might make this breach of others' confidence seem sensible to me.
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