Next wikileaks release to be about 7X as large as Iraq Logs

Seen something interesting in the news or on the intertubes? Discuss it here.

Moderators: Zamfir, Hawknc, Moderators General, Prelates

User avatar
Oregonaut
Posts: 6511
Joined: Wed Jun 02, 2010 9:58 pm UTC
Location: Oregon

Re: Next wikileaks release to be about 7X as large as Iraq L

Postby Oregonaut » Tue Nov 30, 2010 8:51 pm UTC

Wow, a "U.S. Bank"? Not a Swiss bank, or a German bank, or an Italian bank. No, a U.S. bank.

I'm still unimpressed.
- Ochigo the Earth-Stomper

The EGE wrote:
Mumpy wrote:And to this day, librarians revile Oregonaut as the Antichrist.

False! We sacrifice our card catalogues to him in the name of Job Security!

User avatar
SummerGlauFan
Posts: 1746
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2009 8:27 pm UTC
Location: KS

Re: Next wikileaks release to be about 7X as large as Iraq L

Postby SummerGlauFan » Tue Nov 30, 2010 8:53 pm UTC

Oregonaut wrote:Wow, a "U.S. Bank"? Not a Swiss bank, or a German bank, or an Italian bank. No, a U.S. bank.

I'm still unimpressed.


You'd think there would be more juicy info from German or Greek banks.

I'm with you, that it seems suspicious that they put so much effort into just U.S. stuff.
glasnt wrote:"As she raised her rifle against the creature, her hair fluttered beneath the red florescent lighting of the locked down building.

I knew from that moment that she was something special"


Outbreak, a tale of love and zombies.

In stores now.

User avatar
Oregonaut
Posts: 6511
Joined: Wed Jun 02, 2010 9:58 pm UTC
Location: Oregon

Re: Next wikileaks release to be about 7X as large as Iraq L

Postby Oregonaut » Tue Nov 30, 2010 8:58 pm UTC

It isn't suspicious at all. Take a long look around the internet. Everyone* hates the fucking US. Everyone*! Who do people want to tear down more than any other country in the world? I mean, for the love of Luna, people support Iran more than the US, and comparing the two in terms of human rights is about as laughable an activity as I can find. This guy is basically what happens when an ITG gets a shiny new toy, and is tired of the neighborhood "bully".

*Yes, I know not everyone. I had to say that to make myself feel better.
- Ochigo the Earth-Stomper

The EGE wrote:
Mumpy wrote:And to this day, librarians revile Oregonaut as the Antichrist.

False! We sacrifice our card catalogues to him in the name of Job Security!

yedidyak
Posts: 954
Joined: Mon Apr 12, 2010 10:24 pm UTC
Location: Israel

Re: Next wikileaks release to be about 7X as large as Iraq L

Postby yedidyak » Tue Nov 30, 2010 9:04 pm UTC

Oregonaut wrote:It isn't suspicious at all. Take a long look around the internet. Everyone* hates the fucking US. Everyone*! Who do people want to tear down more than any other country in the world? I mean, for the love of Luna, people support Iran more than the US, and comparing the two in terms of human rights is about as laughable an activity as I can find. This guy is basically what happens when an ITG gets a shiny new toy, and is tired of the neighborhood "bully".

*Yes, I know not everyone. I had to say that to make myself feel better.


Theres a great book called 'Whats Left?' by British left-leaning journalist Nick Cohen that charts how the extreme and lately even moderate left has ended up siding with fascist dictators over the democratic West, especially the US. Interesting for sure.

User avatar
Jesse
Vocal Terrorist
Posts: 8635
Joined: Mon Jul 03, 2006 6:33 pm UTC
Location: Basingstoke, England.
Contact:

Re: Next wikileaks release to be about 7X as large as Iraq L

Postby Jesse » Tue Nov 30, 2010 9:09 pm UTC

The WikiLeaks owners publish what is given to them, they don't go stealing government secrets themselves. Since it is more widely known in the US then it is far more likely that people in the US will leak information specifically to them.

Spider Jerusalem wrote:The truth. No matter what.

User avatar
Thirty-one
Posts: 342
Joined: Mon Nov 22, 2010 1:13 pm UTC

Re: Next wikileaks release to be about 7X as large as Iraq L

Postby Thirty-one » Tue Nov 30, 2010 9:09 pm UTC

*shrug*

Unless you guys are claiming that Wikileaks is getting material from other countries, but doesn't bother posting it, I'm not too concerned.
Could it simply be that people in the US are better at whistle-blowing in general? The material has to come from somewhere.

*Edit* Curses, Jesse beat me to the point.
Annoyed, getting worked up or bored by the post above? Help is here.

User avatar
Oregonaut
Posts: 6511
Joined: Wed Jun 02, 2010 9:58 pm UTC
Location: Oregon

Re: Next wikileaks release to be about 7X as large as Iraq L

Postby Oregonaut » Tue Nov 30, 2010 9:12 pm UTC

Thirty-one wrote:*shrug*

Unless you guys are claiming that Wikileaks is getting material from other countries, but doesn't bother posting it, I'm not too concerned.
Could it simply be that people in the US are better at whistle-blowing in general? The material has to come from somewhere.

*Edit* Curses, Jesse beat me to the point.


Read the thread, it has been claimed. Wikileaks says it can't find anyone to host the information from other countries.
- Ochigo the Earth-Stomper

The EGE wrote:
Mumpy wrote:And to this day, librarians revile Oregonaut as the Antichrist.

False! We sacrifice our card catalogues to him in the name of Job Security!

User avatar
Dauric
Posts: 3988
Joined: Wed Aug 05, 2009 6:58 pm UTC
Location: In midair, traversing laterally over a container of sharks. No water, just sharks, with lasers.

Re: Next wikileaks release to be about 7X as large as Iraq L

Postby Dauric » Tue Nov 30, 2010 9:42 pm UTC

Oregonaut wrote:
Thirty-one wrote:*shrug*

Unless you guys are claiming that Wikileaks is getting material from other countries, but doesn't bother posting it, I'm not too concerned.
Could it simply be that people in the US are better at whistle-blowing in general? The material has to come from somewhere.

*Edit* Curses, Jesse beat me to the point.


Read the thread, it has been claimed. Wikileaks says it can't find anyone to host the information from other countries.


Well, let's be clear here. I referenced the Wikipedia article on Wikileaks that although wikileaks has done a number of other articles based on information from other countries, there's no way to see those or any other archived info at the moment, again from the wikipedia article, they claim to not have the money to host their archives, and as such there's no link to anything but the last three U.S. leaks on their site (two of the links are broken).

IMO: I find the inability to host their archives somewhat dubious as text files just aren't that large, and if their document images are like the county records I work with they could be reduced from print resolution (300 to 600 DPI) down to screen/web resolution (approx 72 DPI) to save on disk space, at which point modestly priced server hosting (my company has an on-line county-records archive that we host for around $150 a month at an off-site hosting company, not including the purchase of our web-server, but that's a one-time cost), mirror sites, volunteer hosting, etc. should have been able to let them host their archives where they could be easily found.

This of course assumes a certain level of web savvy and willingness to bargain shop, as well as a certain degree of familiarity with batch image processing, that I'd find odd if they didn't have, but the world could be stranger than advertised.
We're in the traffic-chopper over the XKCD boards where there's been a thread-derailment. A Liquified Godwin spill has evacuated threads in a fourty-post radius of the accident, Lolcats and TVTropes have broken free of their containers. It is believed that the Point has perished.

User avatar
jestingrabbit
Factoids are just Datas that haven't grown up yet
Posts: 5967
Joined: Tue Nov 28, 2006 9:50 pm UTC
Location: Sydney

Re: Next wikileaks release to be about 7X as large as Iraq L

Postby jestingrabbit » Tue Nov 30, 2010 9:46 pm UTC

The only reason that anyone would think that wikileaks is all about leaking about america and only america is because that's what they want to believe. It suits a story you want to tell, about how this is just anti american and indulgent.

To give you some idea of the leaks regarding other countries you need to go only as far as wikipedia to find that they have made available stuff about a whole lot of places. Here's an archive with links to stuff about a UK bank, the Stasi, Kenya, Bermuda, Japan and Thailand. It is a fantasy that it is solely about the US. Its not hosted by wikileaks, they don't have to host, its already been done.
ameretrifle wrote:Magic space feudalism is therefore a viable idea.

User avatar
Dauric
Posts: 3988
Joined: Wed Aug 05, 2009 6:58 pm UTC
Location: In midair, traversing laterally over a container of sharks. No water, just sharks, with lasers.

Re: Next wikileaks release to be about 7X as large as Iraq L

Postby Dauric » Tue Nov 30, 2010 9:55 pm UTC

jestingrabbit wrote:The only reason that anyone would think that wikileaks is all about leaking about america and only america is because that's what they want to believe. It suits a story you want to tell, about how this is just anti american and indulgent.

To give you some idea of the leaks regarding other countries you need to go only as far as wikipedia to find that they make available stuff about a whole lot of places. Here's an archive with links to stuff about a UK bank, the Stasi, Kenya, Bermuda, Japan and Thailand. It is a fantasy that it is solely about the US. Its not hosted by wikileaks, they don't have to host, its already been done.


But they don't link the archive on their own site, or if they do it's so buried that it's not easily findable.

Right now, on their homepage are links to 'Cable Gate', two links to "Iraq War Logs", Support Us, About Wikileaks, Submissions

Main text areas have links to cable-gate, supporting wikileaks, Youtube video of Democracy Now talking about a pentagon whistleblower, and two repeat links to the Iraq War Logs identical to the links in the navigation area. To the right margin are two links to bittorrets of the cable-gate files.

It's great that someone's archiving their previous stuff, although web.archive.org archives -everybody's- stuff so it's not like they're really supporting wikileaks there, and since it's not a wikileaks-dedicated archive it just means it's that much more important that wikileaks actually links to the archive of their own pages.
We're in the traffic-chopper over the XKCD boards where there's been a thread-derailment. A Liquified Godwin spill has evacuated threads in a fourty-post radius of the accident, Lolcats and TVTropes have broken free of their containers. It is believed that the Point has perished.

User avatar
Thirty-one
Posts: 342
Joined: Mon Nov 22, 2010 1:13 pm UTC

Re: Next wikileaks release to be about 7X as large as Iraq L

Postby Thirty-one » Tue Nov 30, 2010 9:58 pm UTC

While they may not host it currently, if they did in the past for long enough for interested parties to have a look and archive what they want, I'd say their massive anti-US bias is made up.
Annoyed, getting worked up or bored by the post above? Help is here.

User avatar
Oregonaut
Posts: 6511
Joined: Wed Jun 02, 2010 9:58 pm UTC
Location: Oregon

Re: Next wikileaks release to be about 7X as large as Iraq L

Postby Oregonaut » Tue Nov 30, 2010 10:02 pm UTC

Well. No, not going to argue angry. I'm not angry about this, I'm angry about something else, and I won't make any damn sense if I start in on this.
- Ochigo the Earth-Stomper

The EGE wrote:
Mumpy wrote:And to this day, librarians revile Oregonaut as the Antichrist.

False! We sacrifice our card catalogues to him in the name of Job Security!

User avatar
SummerGlauFan
Posts: 1746
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2009 8:27 pm UTC
Location: KS

Re: Next wikileaks release to be about 7X as large as Iraq L

Postby SummerGlauFan » Tue Nov 30, 2010 10:14 pm UTC

Dauric wrote:
Oregonaut wrote:
Thirty-one wrote:*shrug*

Unless you guys are claiming that Wikileaks is getting material from other countries, but doesn't bother posting it, I'm not too concerned.
Could it simply be that people in the US are better at whistle-blowing in general? The material has to come from somewhere.

*Edit* Curses, Jesse beat me to the point.


Read the thread, it has been claimed. Wikileaks says it can't find anyone to host the information from other countries.


Well, let's be clear here. I referenced the Wikipedia article on Wikileaks that although wikileaks has done a number of other articles based on information from other countries, there's no way to see those or any other archived info at the moment, again from the wikipedia article, they claim to not have the money to host their archives, and as such there's no link to anything but the last three U.S. leaks on their site (two of the links are broken).

IMO: I find the inability to host their archives somewhat dubious as text files just aren't that large, and if their document images are like the county records I work with they could be reduced from print resolution (300 to 600 DPI) down to screen/web resolution (approx 72 DPI) to save on disk space, at which point modestly priced server hosting (my company has an on-line county-records archive that we host for around $150 a month at an off-site hosting company, not including the purchase of our web-server, but that's a one-time cost), mirror sites, volunteer hosting, etc. should have been able to let them host their archives where they could be easily found.

This of course assumes a certain level of web savvy and willingness to bargain shop, as well as a certain degree of familiarity with batch image processing, that I'd find odd if they didn't have, but the world could be stranger than advertised.


They don't have the room to host articles from other countries, but they can host hundreds of thousands of articles from the U.S.? Color me skeptical.

Then again, as I said, they are basically just professional trolls.
glasnt wrote:"As she raised her rifle against the creature, her hair fluttered beneath the red florescent lighting of the locked down building.

I knew from that moment that she was something special"


Outbreak, a tale of love and zombies.

In stores now.

User avatar
jestingrabbit
Factoids are just Datas that haven't grown up yet
Posts: 5967
Joined: Tue Nov 28, 2006 9:50 pm UTC
Location: Sydney

Re: Next wikileaks release to be about 7X as large as Iraq L

Postby jestingrabbit » Tue Nov 30, 2010 10:15 pm UTC

Dauric wrote:But they don't link the archive on their own site, or if they do it's so buried that it's not easily findable.


They don't link it.

Dauric wrote:It's great that someone's archiving their previous stuff, although web.archive.org archives -everybody's- stuff so it's not like they're really supporting wikileaks there, and since it's not a wikileaks-dedicated archive it just means it's that much more important that wikileaks actually links to the archive of their own pages.


Yes, webarchive archives everyone. I was not claiming they support wikileaks. It was easy enough to find for me, or anyone else who wants to.

Assange said recently (long video, 20mins, talks about a lot of stuff, 7:15 - why they would release diplomatic cables, 13:25 - discusses re-engineering and bottlenecks) that they are undergoing a pretty severe re-engineering of their site and their processes. Their hosting needs to be in Sweden because they use the legal protections that provides, and they favour hosts that don't keep logs, which makes it harder to track the people who provide information, and harder to get the hosting they want or need.
ameretrifle wrote:Magic space feudalism is therefore a viable idea.

yedidyak
Posts: 954
Joined: Mon Apr 12, 2010 10:24 pm UTC
Location: Israel

Re: Next wikileaks release to be about 7X as large as Iraq L

Postby yedidyak » Tue Nov 30, 2010 10:21 pm UTC

Of course, as has been mentioned earlier, whisteblowers from the US have a far longer life-expectancy than you would expect those from Russia and China to have. So maybe there arent leaks on this scale from other major countries.

EDIT

Was just randomly browsing the documents published so far, and came across this one, ID 06JEDDAH700-
Spoiler:
S E C R E T JEDDAH 000700

SIPDIS

SIPDIS

EO 12958 DECL: 11/08/2016
TAGS PGOV, PINR, SCUL
SUBJECT: TALES OF A PRINCE: CG MEETS WITH GOVERNOR OF
ASIR’S FIXER

Classified By: Consul General Tatiana Gfoeller,for reasons 1.4 (b) and (d).

¶1. (S) On November 7 the CG met with a prominent Western businessman who is close to the Governor of Asir, Prince Khalid bin Faisal. The businessman is known as a “fixer” for Prince Khalid. During their conversation, he recounted to the CG a number of his interactions with the Prince.

¶2. (S) Their first encounter was at the prince’s majlis in Abha, the capital of Asir Province. The businessman described the majlis to the CG and spoke of its largesse, its lavish decor, and its eclectic makeup of people: tribesmen, mutawa, and others. During the proceedings, a waiter approached with coffee and tea. XXXXXXXXXXXX the businessman recalled, he knew that he and Prince Khalid would get along well.

¶3. (S) The businessman’s second encounter with the prince was not actually with the prince. He had been invited to the prince’s home to meet with his family. He recalled how surprised he had been at such a gesture. XXXXXXXXXXXX

¶4. (S) The businessman’s third encounter with Prince Khalid coincided with the visit of Prince Charles of the United Kingdom. He informed the CG that Prince Khalid and Prince Charles share a love of painting. Khalid opened a “painters village” in Abha, the capital of Asir, called Al Muftah. People, including faces, as well as objects are painted by Al Muftah artists, just as Khalid does in his own works of art. (Note: This is very interesting since painting is frowned upon by many conservative Saudis, and painting people and faces is forbidden according to the Wahabi interpretation of Islam. End note.) The businessman told the CG about a call that he received from a nervous Prince Khalid because of the party that he had offered to host for Prince Charles. During that time Prince Khalid, who has since built a new palace, was living in his father, the deceased King Faisal’s old palace. His mother, Queen Effet, lived upstairs on the second floor of the palace, but the first floor needed attention. The palace was described as aged and in dire need of renovation. The businessman recounted how he was called and asked by the Prince, to take care of renovating the ground floor of the palace for a party that would take place in three weeks from the time of the phone call. The businessman asked whether he had a choice, and when told an emphatic “no,” then agreed to do it.

¶5. (S) According to the businessman, the first thing that he did was cut off all electricity so that no one would be able to turn on the lights and see what was taking place. Secondly, he inserted styrofoam into the holes in the walls. Thirdly, he set up projectors to project colors and designs onto the walls. On the evening of the party candles were the only source of lighting throughout the house. The plan was successful as the Prince of Wales commented on how luxurious and beautiful the palace was, despite the fact that it was not. Prince Khalid was very happy and the relationship between the businessman and the prince was cemented. (Note: The prince’s old palace has since become a university. End note.)

¶6. (S) The next day Prince Khalid phoned this businessman and invited him to meet the Prince of Wales. What the prince did not know was that while the businessman had sacrificed three weeks to renovate the palace, his sister had been visiting from out of the country and he had other obligations, which he disregarded. The businessman ultimately declined the invitation to meet with the two princes. When he received a phone call and a summons, the next day, from Prince Khalid, he was frightened. He did not know what to expect and he feared the worst.

¶6. (S) When the businessman arrived to meet Prince Khalid he was pleasantly surprised to receive a painting by each of the princes, as gifts. He was also shocked to receive, what Prince Khalid called, a “tip,” in the amount of SR50,000 ($13,333). He confided to the CG that Prince Khalid is “known for being extremely cheap.” The businessman concluded by reiterating how close his relationship is to Prince Khalid and sharing more fond memories of the “phony dinner” at the prince’s palace.
GFOELLER]


First of all, what possible reason could there be for publishing this? But more importantly this seems to me to endanger the life of an easily identifiable person.

User avatar
jestingrabbit
Factoids are just Datas that haven't grown up yet
Posts: 5967
Joined: Tue Nov 28, 2006 9:50 pm UTC
Location: Sydney

Re: Next wikileaks release to be about 7X as large as Iraq L

Postby jestingrabbit » Tue Nov 30, 2010 11:03 pm UTC

yedidyak wrote:First of all, what possible reason could there be for publishing this? But more importantly this seems to me to endanger the life of an easily identifiable person.


It would be of some value to someone writing about the Saud Royal family, for understanding who, in power in Saudi Arabia, is and isn't a fundamentalist, who is and isn't cashed up. It would also be of specific interest to people who wanted to do business in Saudi Arabia. Regarding endangering his life, Al Quaeda decided they were against the house of saud a long time ago. I doubt that this further endangers Prince Khalid in any significant way.

Essentially, it is of interest to the public at large for the same reason that it is of interest to the US government. It allows a greater understanding of members of the ruling elite in Saudi Arabia, and a better understanding of what the truth is in that country and whose policies are more likely to be successful based on that truth.
ameretrifle wrote:Magic space feudalism is therefore a viable idea.

yedidyak
Posts: 954
Joined: Mon Apr 12, 2010 10:24 pm UTC
Location: Israel

Re: Next wikileaks release to be about 7X as large as Iraq L

Postby yedidyak » Tue Nov 30, 2010 11:12 pm UTC

jestingrabbit wrote:Regarding endangering his life, Al Quaeda decided they were against the house of saud a long time ago. I doubt that this further endangers Prince Khalid in any significant way.


I wasnt really thinking of the Prince, for the same reasons, plus its fairly well known that most Saudi Princes arent exactly paragons of Islamic law. I was more thinking of his friend/employee who told the Prince's secrets to US intelligence.

User avatar
jestingrabbit
Factoids are just Datas that haven't grown up yet
Posts: 5967
Joined: Tue Nov 28, 2006 9:50 pm UTC
Location: Sydney

Re: Next wikileaks release to be about 7X as large as Iraq L

Postby jestingrabbit » Tue Nov 30, 2010 11:37 pm UTC

I doubt that the Saudi's are going to start killing business men because they talk about their experiences with embassy staff. They might be pissed off at them, but its a stretch for me to believe that this guy will now be pursued by hit men.
ameretrifle wrote:Magic space feudalism is therefore a viable idea.

Nordic Einar
Posts: 783
Joined: Sun Nov 30, 2008 7:21 am UTC

Re: Next wikileaks release to be about 7X as large as Iraq L

Postby Nordic Einar » Wed Dec 01, 2010 12:44 am UTC

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2010/11/30 ... n-assange/

If he's guilty, I hope he gets whats coming to him. But I can't help but wonder about the timing :/

User avatar
Belial
A terrible sound heard from a distance
Posts: 30450
Joined: Sat Apr 15, 2006 4:04 am UTC
Contact:

Re: Next wikileaks release to be about 7X as large as Iraq L

Postby Belial » Wed Dec 01, 2010 1:02 am UTC

Nordic Einar wrote:If he's guilty, I hope he gets whats coming to him. But I can't help but wonder about the timing :/


This case does seem to pick up every time a new pile of files drops.
addams wrote:A drunk neighbor is better than a sober Belial.


They/them

User avatar
Rippy
Posts: 2101
Joined: Sun Jul 22, 2007 11:27 pm UTC
Location: Ontario, Can o' Duh

Re: Next wikileaks release to be about 7X as large as Iraq L

Postby Rippy » Wed Dec 01, 2010 2:33 am UTC

Nordic Einar wrote:http://www.foxnews.com/world/2010/11/30/interpol-issues-arrest-warrant-wikileaks-founder-julian-assange/

If he's guilty, I hope he gets whats coming to him. But I can't help but wonder about the timing :/

What a farce. Even the Fox article admits that the alleged rape victims do claim (or did for a while, I forget the details) that the relations were consensual. Everything I've read about it points to it being a very poor attempt at defaming him. That said, *maybe* it's true, but I doubt it. Highly.

SummerGlauFan wrote:These guys are basically professional trolls. For example, while watching the news today, I heard a report that wikileaks had info on a "big U.S. bank" that would "turn the bank inside-out."

This article has some info about it.

Honestly, I don't think they are releasing info in an attempt at justice or goodness, but just because they like to see people panic.

Don't confuse what Julian Assange has said with how the media are reporting what he said.

The interview which most of this comes from (I believe).

Page two has most of the bank-relevant exchange. Some quotes of his arrogant fear-mongering:

"Yes, but maybe not as high impact…I mean, it could take down a bank or two."
"All I can say is it’s clear there were unethical practices, but it’s too early to suggest there’s criminality."

I do believe he said something involving "upside-down" or "inside-out", but I can't exactly where (annoying since I read it this morning...). But partly, I think he expects people to care more than they do. Did you read the tone of that CNN article? It was basically saying "how can the banks be any more corrupt than they are now? What more is there to be revealed?" They say that dismissively, like Wikileaks is a disappointment for not being able to reveal anything even more corrupt. How is that not alarming in and of itself?

Kougari
Posts: 3
Joined: Sat Apr 03, 2010 11:47 am UTC

Re: Next wikileaks release to be about 7X as large as Iraq L

Postby Kougari » Wed Dec 01, 2010 3:17 am UTC

1) Wikileaks has released a number of confidential UN reports, in addition to the Australian Government's internet filter blacklist. I for one am very happy that they leaked some of my (Aus) government's info as we had a right to know. They don't just attack America.
2) If America didn't act as the self-appointed world police maybe people wouldn't care as much about corruption and conspiracy within its government. America brought this upon itself by proclaiming for years that it was the "leader of the free world" and the world's greatest democracy while keeping all this shit secret. The hypocrisy is amazing.
3) Why shouldn't we want to know about the inside dealings of a US bank? If you hadn't noticed the US banks just caused a massive global recession that put millions out of work.

True democracy can't exist while the government hides information from its populace. Democracy requires transparency, secrecy breeds corruption.

User avatar
SummerGlauFan
Posts: 1746
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2009 8:27 pm UTC
Location: KS

Re: Next wikileaks release to be about 7X as large as Iraq L

Postby SummerGlauFan » Wed Dec 01, 2010 5:58 am UTC

yedidyak wrote:
jestingrabbit wrote:Regarding endangering his life, Al Quaeda decided they were against the house of saud a long time ago. I doubt that this further endangers Prince Khalid in any significant way.


I wasnt really thinking of the Prince, for the same reasons, plus its fairly well known that most Saudi Princes arent exactly paragons of Islamic law. I was more thinking of his friend/employee who told the Prince's secrets to US intelligence.


It doesn't sound like he said anything that would merit killing him. He was invited to a party and did some rather impressive slight of hand to hide some visual flaws. How, exactly, would that endanger him?

Rippy wrote:
SummerGlauFan wrote:These guys are basically professional trolls. For example, while watching the news today, I heard a report that wikileaks had info on a "big U.S. bank" that would "turn the bank inside-out."

This article has some info about it.

Honestly, I don't think they are releasing info in an attempt at justice or goodness, but just because they like to see people panic.

Don't confuse what Julian Assange has said with how the media are reporting what he said.

The interview which most of this comes from (I believe).

Page two has most of the bank-relevant exchange. Some quotes of his arrogant fear-mongering:

"Yes, but maybe not as high impact…I mean, it could take down a bank or two."
"All I can say is it’s clear there were unethical practices, but it’s too early to suggest there’s criminality."

I do believe he said something involving "upside-down" or "inside-out", but I can't exactly where (annoying since I read it this morning...). But partly, I think he expects people to care more than they do. Did you read the tone of that CNN article? It was basically saying "how can the banks be any more corrupt than they are now? What more is there to be revealed?" They say that dismissively, like Wikileaks is a disappointment for not being able to reveal anything even more corrupt. How is that not alarming in and of itself?


First off, I don't have a high opinion of CNN at all, so the tone hardly surprises me. ;)

Second, the attitude of this guy seems to be more "neener neener neeener, look at the dirt I have on you!" than any intent to do good. Especially given the fact that they have knowingly published documents that would put lives in danger.
glasnt wrote:"As she raised her rifle against the creature, her hair fluttered beneath the red florescent lighting of the locked down building.

I knew from that moment that she was something special"


Outbreak, a tale of love and zombies.

In stores now.

User avatar
jestingrabbit
Factoids are just Datas that haven't grown up yet
Posts: 5967
Joined: Tue Nov 28, 2006 9:50 pm UTC
Location: Sydney

Re: Next wikileaks release to be about 7X as large as Iraq L

Postby jestingrabbit » Wed Dec 01, 2010 7:09 am UTC

SummerGlauFan wrote:Especially given the fact that they have knowingly published documents that would put lives in danger.


What specifically are you talking about here? The US defense taskforce that looked into the afghanistan files concluded that there weren't any sensitive sources or methods revealed.

http://edition.cnn.com/2010/US/10/16/wikileaks.assessment/ wrote:The online leak of thousands of secret military documents from the war in Afghanistan by the website WikiLeaks did not disclose any sensitive intelligence sources or methods, the Department of Defense concluded.

Secretary of Defense Robert Gates said there is still concern Afghans named in the published documents could be retaliated against by the Taliban, though a NATO official said there has been no indication that this has happened.

The assessment, revealed in a letter from Gates to the Chairman of the Senate Armed Services Committee, Sen. Carl Levin (D-Michigan), comes after a thorough Pentagon review of the more than 70,000 documents posted to the controversial whistle-blower site in July.


It was a concern that that had occured, but there's no evidence of any reprisals based on wikileaks' releases. They do make efforts to reduce the harm done by their releases.
ameretrifle wrote:Magic space feudalism is therefore a viable idea.

User avatar
SummerGlauFan
Posts: 1746
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2009 8:27 pm UTC
Location: KS

Re: Next wikileaks release to be about 7X as large as Iraq L

Postby SummerGlauFan » Wed Dec 01, 2010 8:09 am UTC

jestingrabbit wrote:
SummerGlauFan wrote:Especially given the fact that they have knowingly published documents that would put lives in danger.


What specifically are you talking about here? The US defense taskforce that looked into the afghanistan files concluded that there weren't any sensitive sources or methods revealed.

http://edition.cnn.com/2010/US/10/16/wikileaks.assessment/ wrote:The online leak of thousands of secret military documents from the war in Afghanistan by the website WikiLeaks did not disclose any sensitive intelligence sources or methods, the Department of Defense concluded.

Secretary of Defense Robert Gates said there is still concern Afghans named in the published documents could be retaliated against by the Taliban, though a NATO official said there has been no indication that this has happened.

The assessment, revealed in a letter from Gates to the Chairman of the Senate Armed Services Committee, Sen. Carl Levin (D-Michigan), comes after a thorough Pentagon review of the more than 70,000 documents posted to the controversial whistle-blower site in July.


It was a concern that that had occured, but there's no evidence of any reprisals based on wikileaks' releases. They do make efforts to reduce the harm done by their releases.

Contacts mentioned in the Afghan briefs (and IIRC the Iraq files) were potentially in danger. Remember that "was not retaliated on" != "not endangered." These are still names of people helping the U.S. in a country controlled by people who want our absolute destruction.
glasnt wrote:"As she raised her rifle against the creature, her hair fluttered beneath the red florescent lighting of the locked down building.

I knew from that moment that she was something special"


Outbreak, a tale of love and zombies.

In stores now.

User avatar
Zamfir
I built a novelty castle, the irony was lost on some.
Posts: 7588
Joined: Wed Aug 27, 2008 2:43 pm UTC
Location: Nederland

Re: Next wikileaks release to be about 7X as large as Iraq L

Postby Zamfir » Wed Dec 01, 2010 8:34 am UTC

SummerGlauFan wrote:Contacts mentioned in the Afghan briefs (and IIRC the Iraq files) were potentially in danger. Remember that "was not retaliated on" != "not endangered." These are still names of people helping the U.S. in a country controlled by people who want our absolute destruction.

That's working from the assumption that Wikileaks should not act against the interest of the US people.

dic_penderyn
Posts: 35
Joined: Mon Apr 14, 2008 9:29 am UTC
Location: Merthyr Tydfil, Wales

Re: Next wikileaks release to be about 7X as large as Iraq L

Postby dic_penderyn » Wed Dec 01, 2010 11:33 am UTC

Some good points, some a little confusing.

Wikileaks have existed for a while now. I understand that it seems they only target US leaks, but there are literally thousands of leaks before the Diaries and cablegate releases. Most of these were not from the US at all. There is no anti US feeling at Wikileaks. There is just anti corruption, take from that, what you will.

Regarding the Troll comments. Assange gave a talk quite some time ago about being the very very public face/target for wikileaks. This was agreed by the other people at Wikileaks, notice that all critisism seems to be directed at him personally. It was always meant to be that way. He has the hard job, it's not a job I would like .

Meanwhile the rest of the Wikileaks team can get on with thier work, while Assange is dragged through the papers with abuse and trumped up charges.

Anyway, the whole discussion is focusing on the wrong side of the story. Instead of shouting at wikileaks for "daring to leak US secrets", we should be discussing the content of those leaks and what it means.

Nuclear warheads in the Netherlands? I cant believe that one past most agencies by, The UK Prince being rude ,makes such a better story :roll:

User avatar
Zamfir
I built a novelty castle, the irony was lost on some.
Posts: 7588
Joined: Wed Aug 27, 2008 2:43 pm UTC
Location: Nederland

Re: Next wikileaks release to be about 7X as large as Iraq L

Postby Zamfir » Wed Dec 01, 2010 12:21 pm UTC

dic_penderyn wrote:Nuclear warheads in the Netherlands? I cant believe that one past most agencies by, The UK Prince being rude ,makes such a better story :roll:

The nuclear warheads in Volkel are basically a non-secret. Everyone knows they are there, in which bunkers they lie, and roughly how many and what type.

Takes this article: http://www.nrc.nl/binnenland/article2356073.ece/Officieel_zijn_de_kernwapens_op_Volkel_er_niet. It even includes a picture of a US general inspecting the storage facility.

The whole point of those weapons is symbolic, they don't have any military function. The US wants, quite reasonably, that countries under its nuclear umbrella commit themselves to dropping a few nuclear bombs if that is ever needed. So the Netherlands basically promised that if the Russians would ever attack, we wouldn't pretend to be neutral but clearly choose a side, by sending a few nuclear-armed F-16s into the fight.

Of course, this only makes sense if it is not really a secret. It would be a worthless promise if people could just say "what, nuclear bombs? We didn't know about that!"

User avatar
EdgarJPublius
Official Propagandi.... Nifty Poster Guy
Posts: 3712
Joined: Tue Oct 09, 2007 4:56 am UTC
Location: where the wind takes me

Re: Next wikileaks release to be about 7X as large as Iraq L

Postby EdgarJPublius » Wed Dec 01, 2010 4:40 pm UTC

Since 9/11 and possibly earlier, since the end of the cold war, new security ideas like 'inter-agency fusion' have done a lot of damage to old security practices such as 'need to know'. With SipDis especially, documents that might have been circulated to only a few tens or at most hundreds of people are now available for thousands to browse on the theory that the information contained could be useful in unexpected ways. That's essentially a good idea, but no real effort has been made to respond to the new security realities that making information which was once intended for limited viewing more widely available.

Before SipDis, a minor analyst like Manning would have only had access to a fraction of these documents that were directly related to his specialty and assignment. This limited the effectiveness of such analysis certainly, as useful information not directly related to the current assignment would be locked behind walls of 'need to know' and similar make. But it also means that no one person could leak such a large number of documents with such varied subject matters.

That's why manning was able to create such a large leak, and why the U.S. is such an easy target. Our new methods for handling large volumes of our secure documents are leaky.
Roosevelt wrote:
I wrote:Does Space Teddy Roosevelt wrestle Space Bears and fight the Space Spanish-American War with his band of Space-volunteers the Space Rough Riders?

Yes.

-still unaware of the origin and meaning of his own user-title

User avatar
SummerGlauFan
Posts: 1746
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2009 8:27 pm UTC
Location: KS

Re: Next wikileaks release to be about 7X as large as Iraq L

Postby SummerGlauFan » Wed Dec 01, 2010 5:50 pm UTC

Zamfir wrote:
SummerGlauFan wrote:Contacts mentioned in the Afghan briefs (and IIRC the Iraq files) were potentially in danger. Remember that "was not retaliated on" != "not endangered." These are still names of people helping the U.S. in a country controlled by people who want our absolute destruction.

That's working from the assumption that Wikileaks should not act against the interest of the US people.


I'm operating under the assumption that wikileaks shouldn't release information that risks the lives of people, including foreign informants.

Also, note that "U.S. government" is not the same as "U.S. people." Even if someone is against a government, it's a whole other ball game if you're against the people of that nation.
glasnt wrote:"As she raised her rifle against the creature, her hair fluttered beneath the red florescent lighting of the locked down building.

I knew from that moment that she was something special"


Outbreak, a tale of love and zombies.

In stores now.

User avatar
Oregonaut
Posts: 6511
Joined: Wed Jun 02, 2010 9:58 pm UTC
Location: Oregon

Re: Next wikileaks release to be about 7X as large as Iraq L

Postby Oregonaut » Wed Dec 01, 2010 5:52 pm UTC

You also have to remember that Wikileaks is not the sole arbitor of what is good for the US People.
- Ochigo the Earth-Stomper

The EGE wrote:
Mumpy wrote:And to this day, librarians revile Oregonaut as the Antichrist.

False! We sacrifice our card catalogues to him in the name of Job Security!

User avatar
Zamfir
I built a novelty castle, the irony was lost on some.
Posts: 7588
Joined: Wed Aug 27, 2008 2:43 pm UTC
Location: Nederland

Re: Next wikileaks release to be about 7X as large as Iraq L

Postby Zamfir » Wed Dec 01, 2010 6:16 pm UTC

SummerGlauFan wrote:
Zamfir wrote:
SummerGlauFan wrote:Contacts mentioned in the Afghan briefs (and IIRC the Iraq files) were potentially in danger. Remember that "was not retaliated on" != "not endangered." These are still names of people helping the U.S. in a country controlled by people who want our absolute destruction.

That's working from the assumption that Wikileaks should not act against the interest of the US people.


I'm operating under the assumption that wikileaks shouldn't release information that risks the lives of people, including foreign informants.

Also, note that "U.S. government" is not the same as "U.S. people." Even if someone is against a government, it's a whole other ball game if you're against the people of that nation.

Yes, I made that distinction on purpose. A lot of the discussion above was on whether wikileaks might be good for the American people, by giving them more grip on the US government at the cost of a less effective government. The result of that trade-off might be good for Americans or bad for Americans.

But there is a similar but distinct question on whether the result is good for the world. The rest of the world has a lot less to lose, if people stop trusting the US with secrets. Sometimes the US might use those secrets for purposes that benefit non-US citizens too. At the other times, it uses that information in ways that are beneficial to US citizens, but neutral or negative for foreigners.

Also, seen from the US wikileaks might have been endangering its informers by publishing secrets, but seen from outside of the US those informers have been mostly endangering themselves by ratting to the US. Telling secrets to US embassy workers is not in itself a particularly laudable thing.

User avatar
SummerGlauFan
Posts: 1746
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2009 8:27 pm UTC
Location: KS

Re: Next wikileaks release to be about 7X as large as Iraq L

Postby SummerGlauFan » Wed Dec 01, 2010 6:21 pm UTC

Zamfir wrote:
SummerGlauFan wrote:
Zamfir wrote:
SummerGlauFan wrote:Contacts mentioned in the Afghan briefs (and IIRC the Iraq files) were potentially in danger. Remember that "was not retaliated on" != "not endangered." These are still names of people helping the U.S. in a country controlled by people who want our absolute destruction.

That's working from the assumption that Wikileaks should not act against the interest of the US people.


I'm operating under the assumption that wikileaks shouldn't release information that risks the lives of people, including foreign informants.

Also, note that "U.S. government" is not the same as "U.S. people." Even if someone is against a government, it's a whole other ball game if you're against the people of that nation.

Yes, I made that distinction on purpose. A lot of the discussion above was on whether wikileaks might be good for the American people, by giving them more grip on the US government at the cost of a less effective government. The result of that trade-off might be good for Americans or bad for Americans.

But there is a similar but distinct question on whether the result is good for the world. The rest of the world has a lot less to lose, if people stop trusting the US with secrets. Sometimes the US might use those secrets for purposes that benefit non-US citizens too. At the other times, it uses that information in ways that are beneficial to US citizens, but neutral or negative for foreigners.

Also, seen from the US wikileaks might have been endangering its informers by publishing secrets, but seen from outside of the US those informers have been mostly endangering themselves by ratting to the US. Telling secrets to US embassy workers is not in itself a particularly laudable thing.


How could an Afghan informer giving the U.S. intel on Al Quaeda and the Taliban possibly be frowned upon by the greater world? Unless the world just has such a deep-seated hatred to the U.S. that terrorist groups are preferable to them?
glasnt wrote:"As she raised her rifle against the creature, her hair fluttered beneath the red florescent lighting of the locked down building.

I knew from that moment that she was something special"


Outbreak, a tale of love and zombies.

In stores now.

User avatar
Belial
A terrible sound heard from a distance
Posts: 30450
Joined: Sat Apr 15, 2006 4:04 am UTC
Contact:

Re: Next wikileaks release to be about 7X as large as Iraq L

Postby Belial » Wed Dec 01, 2010 6:28 pm UTC

Oregonaut wrote:You also have to remember that Wikileaks is not the sole arbitor of what is good for the US People.


That's why they don't arbitrate. If you leak to them, they make sure it's not going to get someone immediately killed, maybe submit it to the relevant governments to ask if they want to redact anything sensitive, and then publish it. No arbitration on whether it's "good" for one group or another involved.
addams wrote:A drunk neighbor is better than a sober Belial.


They/them

User avatar
Zamfir
I built a novelty castle, the irony was lost on some.
Posts: 7588
Joined: Wed Aug 27, 2008 2:43 pm UTC
Location: Nederland

Re: Next wikileaks release to be about 7X as large as Iraq L

Postby Zamfir » Wed Dec 01, 2010 6:48 pm UTC

SummerGlauFan wrote:How could an Afghan informer giving the U.S. intel on Al Quaeda and the Taliban possibly be frowned upon by the greater world? Unless the world just has such a deep-seated hatred to the U.S. that terrorist groups are preferable to them?

Well, for one thing there are the people whose lives were put at risk by informing on them. I'd say his fellow Taliban have every reason to treat informers as traitors, just as you would with people who give US secrets to the Taliban. I don't have much sympathy for the Taliban, but at least we can see them as opponents in a war. There is nothing honorable about informing on fellow soldiers, not even when you are a Taliban.

Also, the current leaks seem to have little to do with Afghani war secrets, and everything with diplomatic missions in regular countries. A businessman who sells or gives his opinion on a Saudi prince isn't doing a particularly bad thing, but it is not a good thing either. If he loses business contracts or so because of these leaks, it's mainly his own fault.

Just to be clear, if the Taliban or Saudi princes or anyone kill outsiders for talking to the US, they are performing a murder and should be blamed for it. But the blame for murder lies on the killers, not on anyone else. The blame for endangering the outsider lies with themselves, the US and wikileaks, and not primarily with wikileaks.


A final thing: I sounded more anti-American than I intended. Replace US with some other country, or the Taliban, and I think the same roughly applies.
Last edited by Zamfir on Wed Dec 01, 2010 7:09 pm UTC, edited 2 times in total.

User avatar
jestingrabbit
Factoids are just Datas that haven't grown up yet
Posts: 5967
Joined: Tue Nov 28, 2006 9:50 pm UTC
Location: Sydney

Re: Next wikileaks release to be about 7X as large as Iraq L

Postby jestingrabbit » Wed Dec 01, 2010 7:04 pm UTC

SummerGlauFan wrote:Contacts mentioned in the Afghan briefs (and IIRC the Iraq files) were potentially in danger. Remember that "was not retaliated on" != "not endangered." These are still names of people helping the U.S. in a country controlled by people who want our absolute destruction.


I think there are a few reasons why endangering these people in this way is excusable.

Firstly, its not a large increase in the amount of danger that they are already in.

Secondly, the actions of the US troops in the country are endangering the lives of Afghans who have no military or terrorist goals or aspirations at all. Revealing that truth, that the rules of engangement are such that civilian casualties are pretty much a certainty, on the order of thousands a year, is, in my estimation, worth a slight increase in risk to a small group of people who have already put themselves at some risk. On balance, I consider that exposing the conduct of the war to this level of scrutiny is likely to reduce the overall civilian deaths.

I also think that zamfir is right that you're coming at this from a perspective that prioritises American interests over anyone elses. You're certainly free to do that, and to criticise the leaks from that perspective, but its unreasonable to require everyone else to make that same prioritisation.
ameretrifle wrote:Magic space feudalism is therefore a viable idea.

Eyat
Posts: 129
Joined: Tue Jan 05, 2010 3:48 pm UTC

Re: Next wikileaks release to be about 7X as large as Iraq L

Postby Eyat » Wed Dec 01, 2010 7:09 pm UTC

On a different note, when they can threaten to release company data and it has a noticeable effect on the stock market despite not naming anything that is way too much power. What if the bank leak information is as benign and pointless as 'cable-gate' ? People could lose their jobs if companies lose money because these ass hats want to tease their next score. They should just release it if they are going to release it and stop trolling.

User avatar
EdgarJPublius
Official Propagandi.... Nifty Poster Guy
Posts: 3712
Joined: Tue Oct 09, 2007 4:56 am UTC
Location: where the wind takes me

Re: Next wikileaks release to be about 7X as large as Iraq L

Postby EdgarJPublius » Wed Dec 01, 2010 8:18 pm UTC

SummerGlauFan wrote:
Zamfir wrote:
SummerGlauFan wrote:Contacts mentioned in the Afghan briefs (and IIRC the Iraq files) were potentially in danger. Remember that "was not retaliated on" != "not endangered." These are still names of people helping the U.S. in a country controlled by people who want our absolute destruction.

That's working from the assumption that Wikileaks should not act against the interest of the US people.


I'm operating under the assumption that wikileaks shouldn't release information that risks the lives of people, including foreign informants.


To be fair, the U.S. Department of State was asked to indicate whether any of the documents about to be released would put anyone at risk so that they could be redacted/held back as necessary, but the DoS refused to cooperate.
Roosevelt wrote:
I wrote:Does Space Teddy Roosevelt wrestle Space Bears and fight the Space Spanish-American War with his band of Space-volunteers the Space Rough Riders?

Yes.

-still unaware of the origin and meaning of his own user-title

yedidyak
Posts: 954
Joined: Mon Apr 12, 2010 10:24 pm UTC
Location: Israel

Re: Next wikileaks release to be about 7X as large as Iraq L

Postby yedidyak » Wed Dec 01, 2010 9:41 pm UTC

Zamfir wrote:Well, for one thing there are the people whose lives were put at risk by informing on them. I'd say his fellow Taliban have every reason to treat informers as traitors, just as you would with people who give US secrets to the Taliban. I don't have much sympathy for the Taliban, but at least we can see them as opponents in a war. There is nothing honorable about informing on fellow soldiers, not even when you are a Taliban.


Ah, the moral equivalence thing. Even with all the various shades of grey, there is still a wrong and a right. By and large the Taliban are for oppressing women, non believers, gays etc. By and large the US is for democracy and human rights. 'Ratting out' Taliban to the US is in no way morally equivalent to 'ratting out' those informers.

PeterCai
Posts: 865
Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2009 1:09 pm UTC

Re: Next wikileaks release to be about 7X as large as Iraq L

Postby PeterCai » Thu Dec 02, 2010 3:37 am UTC

Why didn't I see you complaining when wikileak was leaking other countries' stuff? This anti-wikileak sentiment is nationalistic and you know it. Stop trying to justify it with bullcrap excuses


Return to “News & Articles”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 11 guests