Libya's Protests and Civil War

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PeterCai
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Re: Libya's Protests and Civil War

Postby PeterCai » Thu Mar 24, 2011 9:20 pm UTC

Jessica wrote:What you forget is that, everything IS obama's fault. He could be making a puppy orphanage for sick children, and he'd still be evil.


He is making sick children living in dog houses? Yeah he is evil.

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Re: Libya's Protests and Civil War

Postby Dauric » Thu Mar 24, 2011 9:29 pm UTC

Heisenberg wrote:Obviously he doesn't have a legal obligation to tell me why he's blowing stuff up.


Oh, so -YOU- are the final word on it? You could have said "Us" or "The public", but no. -You- want -Personal Face Time- with the person in one of the busiest offices in the world. I'm sure he'll pencil you in.

Secondly we have a -representative- democracy* because 1) The masses acting as a mass of people are idiots that will light cars on fire and do millions in property damage when their local sportsball team -wins- a national championship, and 2) Insisting on direct democracy and votes of the people for every fucking thing is inefficient, and by the time we got around to approving supporting a U.N. intervention Gaddafi would have slaughtered half his nation.

*So maybe you should be demanding personal face-time with your congressperson, Y'know the ones that as Oregonaut pointed out gave the go-ahead to President Obama.
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Re: Libya's Protests and Civil War

Postby Jessica » Thu Mar 24, 2011 9:44 pm UTC

PeterCai wrote:
Jessica wrote:What you forget is that, everything IS obama's fault. He could be making a puppy orphanage for sick children, and he'd still be evil.
He is making sick children living in dog houses? Yeah he is evil.
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Re: Libya's Protests and Civil War

Postby Oregonaut » Thu Mar 24, 2011 9:46 pm UTC

Am I evil? Yes, I am.
Am I evil? I am man. Yes, I am.
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Re: Libya's Protests and Civil War

Postby folkhero » Thu Mar 24, 2011 9:51 pm UTC

Dauric wrote:*So maybe you should be demanding personal face-time with your congressperson, Y'know the ones that as Oregonaut pointed out gave the go-ahead to President Obama.

All the congress people from my state the gave the president that power all died before I was born.
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Re: Libya's Protests and Civil War

Postby Oregonaut » Thu Mar 24, 2011 9:52 pm UTC

folkhero wrote:
Dauric wrote:*So maybe you should be demanding personal face-time with your congressperson, Y'know the ones that as Oregonaut pointed out gave the go-ahead to President Obama.

All the congress people from my state the gave the president that power all died before I was born.

We have this system that allows laws to pass from Congress to Congress. If you don't like that, again, with the new law making.
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Re: Libya's Protests and Civil War

Postby Dauric » Thu Mar 24, 2011 9:53 pm UTC

folkhero wrote:
Dauric wrote:*So maybe you should be demanding personal face-time with your congressperson, Y'know the ones that as Oregonaut pointed out gave the go-ahead to President Obama.

All the congress people from my state the gave the president that power all died before I was born.

*facepalm*

No, our current congress voted to support he UNSC decision as to what to do in regards to Gadaffi's attacks on civilian populations.
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Re: Libya's Protests and Civil War

Postby Роберт » Thu Mar 24, 2011 9:56 pm UTC

Dauric wrote:
folkhero wrote:
Dauric wrote:*So maybe you should be demanding personal face-time with your congressperson, Y'know the ones that as Oregonaut pointed out gave the go-ahead to President Obama.

All the congress people from my state the gave the president that power all died before I was born.

*facepalm*

No, our current congress voted to support he UNSC decision as to what to do in regards to Gadaffi's attacks on civilian populations.

Yes. And they all died before folkhero was born. You didn't realize that our congress is made up of the undead?
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Re: Libya's Protests and Civil War

Postby Oregonaut » Thu Mar 24, 2011 9:56 pm UTC

Роберт wrote:
Dauric wrote:
folkhero wrote:
Dauric wrote:*So maybe you should be demanding personal face-time with your congressperson, Y'know the ones that as Oregonaut pointed out gave the go-ahead to President Obama.

All the congress people from my state the gave the president that power all died before I was born.

*facepalm*

No, our current congress voted to support he UNSC decision as to what to do in regards to Gadaffi's attacks on civilian populations.

Yes. And they all died before folkhero was born. You didn't realize that our congress is made up of the undead?

Have you SEEN some of their mugshots? This wouldn't surprise me.
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Re: Libya's Protests and Civil War

Postby Dauric » Thu Mar 24, 2011 9:58 pm UTC

Oregonaut wrote:
Роберт wrote:
Dauric wrote:
folkhero wrote:
Dauric wrote:*So maybe you should be demanding personal face-time with your congressperson, Y'know the ones that as Oregonaut pointed out gave the go-ahead to President Obama.

All the congress people from my state the gave the president that power all died before I was born.

*facepalm*

No, our current congress voted to support he UNSC decision as to what to do in regards to Gadaffi's attacks on civilian populations.

Yes. And they all died before folkhero was born. You didn't realize that our congress is made up of the undead?

Have you SEEN some of their mugshots? This wouldn't surprise me.


Zombie Apocalypse.. "We're from the government and we're here to help." ..

... Yeah, that makes sense.
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Re: Libya's Protests and Civil War

Postby folkhero » Thu Mar 24, 2011 10:04 pm UTC

Dauric wrote:
folkhero wrote:
Dauric wrote:*So maybe you should be demanding personal face-time with your congressperson, Y'know the ones that as Oregonaut pointed out gave the go-ahead to President Obama.

All the congress people from my state the gave the president that power all died before I was born.

*facepalm*

No, our current congress voted to support he UNSC decision as to what to do in regards to Gadaffi's attacks on civilian populations.

Do you have a link for that, because this is the first I've heard of it. abc news seems to be suggesting that he didn't have congress's approval.
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Re: Libya's Protests and Civil War

Postby Oregonaut » Thu Mar 24, 2011 10:08 pm UTC

He doesn't need the current congress' approval

The law doesn't work that way.

Otherwise each Congress would have to re-ratify EVERY law.
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Re: Libya's Protests and Civil War

Postby folkhero » Thu Mar 24, 2011 10:12 pm UTC

I know that much about the law, but I was responding to Duaric's advice that I should get some facetime with the congressman who approved giving that power to the president, and his later claim that the current congress gave approval for this specific action.
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Re: Libya's Protests and Civil War

Postby Dauric » Thu Mar 24, 2011 10:13 pm UTC

folkhero wrote:
Dauric wrote:
folkhero wrote:
Dauric wrote:*So maybe you should be demanding personal face-time with your congressperson, Y'know the ones that as Oregonaut pointed out gave the go-ahead to President Obama.

All the congress people from my state the gave the president that power all died before I was born.

*facepalm*

No, our current congress voted to support he UNSC decision as to what to do in regards to Gadaffi's attacks on civilian populations.

Do you have a link for that, because this is the first I've heard of it. abc news seems to be suggesting that he didn't have congress's approval.


Apologies, my information was flawed. I do know that congress has been debating what to do, and McCain was calling for the No-Fly (and thus the NPR report I mentioned earlier about why a no-fly was actually an invasion).

However congress gave the president the ability to deploy as he saw fit for a period of 30 or 90 days (I forget which, and I'm about to leave work for the day so I've not a lot of time to research it) precisely because getting Congress to sign off on something when it's time critical is nigh impossible. Again, Heisenberg wants personal face time with someone, he's better off trying to get his congressperson's attention than any occupier of the Presidency.

Edit:

Found it

The War Powers Resolution of 1973 (50 U.S.C. 1541–1548) was a United States Congress joint resolution providing that the President can send U.S. armed forces into action abroad only by authorization of Congress or if the United States is already under attack or serious threat.[citation needed] The War Powers Resolution requires the president to notify Congress within 48 hours of committing armed forces to military action and forbids armed forces from remaining for more than 60 days, with a further 30 day withdrawal period, without an authorization of the use of military force or a declaration of war. The resolution was passed by two-thirds of Congress, overriding a presidential veto.
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Re: Libya's Protests and Civil War

Postby Oregonaut » Thu Mar 24, 2011 11:06 pm UTC

That particular act does not supercede the US' obligation to the UNSC, IIRC.
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Re: Libya's Protests and Civil War

Postby Oregonaut » Fri Mar 25, 2011 12:31 pm UTC

I clicked the article into Chinese, and it made sense. If by sense you mean "written by three different people all trading paragraphs."
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Re: Libya's Protests and Civil War

Postby Heisenberg » Fri Mar 25, 2011 6:17 pm UTC

Oregonaut wrote:You would rather he explain every single thing he does in exacting detail ...

Nah, just the times when he takes my friends and family and puts them in harm's way. Or maybe whenever he attacks a sovreign nation with "humanitarian bombs." That'd be all right. Just cc the NYT on that email, please.

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Re: Libya's Protests and Civil War

Postby IcedT » Fri Mar 25, 2011 6:22 pm UTC

Heisenberg wrote:
Oregonaut wrote:You would rather he explain every single thing he does in exacting detail ...

Nah, just the times when he takes my friends and family and puts them in harm's way.

Not sure that flies in a nation with an all-volunteer military.

Heisenberg wrote:Or maybe whenever he attacks a sovreign nation with "humanitarian bombs." That'd be all right. Just cc the NYT on that email, please.
The explanation you'd get would probably be along the lines of "The UNSC has approved this action so I'm fulfilling our obligation to participate as permanent members of the UNSC." Maybe he just thought you were smart enough to fill in the blanks? Or maybe he was busy on a diplomatic visit to Brazil (note: he was).

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Re: Libya's Protests and Civil War

Postby Oregonaut » Fri Mar 25, 2011 6:43 pm UTC

Ah, yes, yes. Your "friends and family". I'll see you "friends and family" and raise you "people I personally trained and bled with/for". They don't mind going over there.

Wanna take a SWAG as to why? Because in this crazy ass all volunteer military we so love here in the states, we go places when the CIC says so, as long as it isn't illegal. We've already covered *why* it isn't illegal. We've already covered that El Presidente is fully legit in sending the folks out there. So...yeah. Was there anything else you'd like covered?
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Re: Libya's Protests and Civil War

Postby Dream » Fri Mar 25, 2011 6:48 pm UTC

Oregonaut wrote:I'll see you "friends and family" and raise you "people I personally trained and bled with/for". They don't mind going over there.

That's not a raise. In fact, it is the opposite of a raise.
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Re: Libya's Protests and Civil War

Postby Heisenberg » Fri Mar 25, 2011 6:53 pm UTC

I already explained why saying "The UN said so" is like saying I ran you over "because the car was in drive."

The United States Military represents the American people. They go where they're sent, and God bless them for that. America is doing the sending. Those are American bullets and American bombs, marked "To Libya with love."

You don't think the President needs to justify military action to the American people?

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Re: Libya's Protests and Civil War

Postby Oregonaut » Fri Mar 25, 2011 7:02 pm UTC

Dream wrote:
Oregonaut wrote:I'll see you "friends and family" and raise you "people I personally trained and bled with/for". They don't mind going over there.

That's not a raise. In fact, it is the opposite of a raise.

From your perspective? Ok. From mine? Not so much.

@theUncertaintyPrinciple

The justification has been provided previously. We are on the UNSC. We did not abstain because we do not sit back when the rest of the "free" world decides that a dictator is killing civvies. We didn't start this. The Arab League did. The UNSC and NATO, of which we are charter members, called. America picked up the phone, and in doing so increased our soft power with them. Why? Because doing the opposite would have decreased our influence with them, our friendship with them. It would have told England, "Thanks for helping us when we asked, but go fuck yourself."

That's not good politics, savvy?
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Re: Libya's Protests and Civil War

Postby Iulus Cofield » Fri Mar 25, 2011 7:23 pm UTC

Please stop arguing with Heisenberg. I keep hoping there are updates but it's just one guy with a skewed perspective of military and foreign affairs dominating thought patterns.

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Re: Libya's Protests and Civil War

Postby Zamfir » Fri Mar 25, 2011 7:32 pm UTC

Oregonaut wrote:
Dream wrote:
Oregonaut wrote:I'll see you "friends and family" and raise you "people I personally trained and bled with/for". They don't mind going over there.

That's not a raise. In fact, it is the opposite of a raise.

From your perspective? Ok. From mine? Not so much.

@theUncertaintyPrinciple

The justification has been provided previously. We are on the UNSC. We did not abstain because we do not sit back when the rest of the "free" world decides that a dictator is killing civvies. We didn't start this. The Arab League did. The UNSC and NATO, of which we are charter members, called. America picked up the phone, and in doing so increased our soft power with them. Why? Because doing the opposite would have decreased our influence with them, our friendship with them. It would have told England, "Thanks for helping us when we asked, but go fuck yourself."

That's not good politics, savvy?

It's not realistic to assume this happened without the explicit and active encouragement from the US. In particular, China and Russia really, really dislike UNSC decisions that go against the sovereignity of countries, and they veto them as matter of principle. There is no way they would have abstained (instead of vetoed), unless someone has pressed them hard, probably with lots of diplomatic favours on top.

In the same way, the Arab League is far from enthusiast about missions like this. They know far to well that it sets a precendent for other countries in the future. They are more supportive than usual, but that's it. They are not pulling this, someone has leaned heavily on them to support the mission.

France and the UK simply do not have that amount of leverage alone, not towards the Arabs and not towards Russia and China. The US must have played a very heavy role to get this level of support.

Both for internal and external politics, the US is downplaying its role, and pushes France and other NATO countries in the spotlight. But this mission would never have happened this quickly unless the US has been a major and early supporter of the idea.

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Re: Libya's Protests and Civil War

Postby Oregonaut » Fri Mar 25, 2011 7:35 pm UTC

...You do know that not everything that happens globally is the US' fault, right?
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Re: Libya's Protests and Civil War

Postby Telchar » Fri Mar 25, 2011 7:36 pm UTC

Heisenberg wrote:I already explained why saying "The UN said so" is like saying I ran you over "because the car was in drive."

The United States Military represents the American people. They go where they're sent, and God bless them for that. America is doing the sending. Those are American bullets and American bombs, marked "To Libya with love."

You don't think the President needs to justify military action to the American people?



From here:

The President is authorized to negotiate a special agreement or agreements with the Security Council which shall be subject to the approval of the Congress by appropriate Act or joint resolution, providing for the numbers and types of armed forces, their degree of readiness and general location, and the nature of facilities and assistance, including rights of passage, to be made available to the Security Council on its call for the purpose of maintaining international peace and security in accordance with article 43 of said Charter. The President shall not be deemed to require the authorization of the Congress to make available to the Security Council on its call in order to take action under article 42 of said Charter and pursuant to such special agreement or agreements the armed forces, facilities, or assistance provided for therein: Provided, That, except as authorized in section 287d–1 of this title, nothing herein contained shall be construed as an authorization to the President by the Congress to make available to the Security Council for such purpose armed forces, facilities, or assistance in addition to the forces, facilities, and assistance provided for in such special agreement or agreements.


Bolded mine. This appears to be congress authrizing the president to use armed forces at the request of the UNSC under article 42. After the bolded portion appears to be a disclaimer but I can't decipher the legalese.

Article 42 of the UN charter here

Should the Security Council consider that measures provided for in Article 41 would be inadequate or have proved to be inadequate, it may take such action by air, sea, or land forces as may be necessary to maintain or restore international peace and security. Such action may include demonstrations, blockade, and other operations by air, sea, or land forces of Members of the United Nations.
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Re: Libya's Protests and Civil War

Postby Heisenberg » Fri Mar 25, 2011 7:49 pm UTC

Telchar wrote:authrizing the president
Legal authority, sure. But don't you think that Mr. Press-Conference-a-week should explain his actions as CIC to the American people, who he represents?
Oregonaut wrote:That's not good politics, savvy?
So, you think we're going into Libya for political reasons. Some in this thread think we're there to protect civilians. We may be going after the Lockerbie bomber. What I'd like to know is what rationale the representative of the American people and Commander-In-Chief has for starting another war.

Why is your credit card statement Press Conference-worthy while initiating hostilities with a sovereign nation not?

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Re: Libya's Protests and Civil War

Postby Oregonaut » Fri Mar 25, 2011 7:51 pm UTC

Because it isn't a single factor that determines things in global politics?
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Re: Libya's Protests and Civil War

Postby Zamfir » Fri Mar 25, 2011 7:59 pm UTC

Telchar wrote:
Bolded mine. This appears to be congress authrizing the president to use armed forces at the request of the UNSC under article 42.

Sure, but that still leaves the question why they voted for it in the first place. Or didn't veto, actually. Bit weird to vote in favour of an action, then go home and say "we don't want to do it, but the UNSC asked us to do it so we have to".
Oregonaut wrote:...You do know that not everything that happens globally is the US' fault, right?

Sure, I am not saying this somehow the sole responsibility of the US. I am saying that the US was a strong proponent of the action, just like France and the UK. The US is powerful enough that it doesn't have to do things like this unless it actively wants to do them.
Last edited by Zamfir on Fri Mar 25, 2011 8:02 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Libya's Protests and Civil War

Postby Telchar » Fri Mar 25, 2011 8:01 pm UTC

My understanding is that particular peice of the US Code is rather old and is not Libya specific.
Zamfir wrote:Yeah, that's a good point. Everyone is all about presumption of innocence in rape threads. But when Mexican drug lords build APCs to carry their henchmen around, we immediately jump to criminal conclusions without hard evidence.

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Re: Libya's Protests and Civil War

Postby Zamfir » Fri Mar 25, 2011 8:05 pm UTC

Apologies for the unclarity. didn't mean congress voting for that law, I meant the US voting for action in Lybia in the UNSC.

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Re: Libya's Protests and Civil War

Postby Oregonaut » Fri Mar 25, 2011 8:07 pm UTC

Zam, what I'm trying to say is that it is entirely likely that since Europe gets most of Libya's oil, the US is in this because Europe called in some favors. We may get nothing but warm fuzzies, and some respect back from Europe for doing this.

Why didn't the UK veto? They're big kids too. Hell, the UK public hates invasions, they hate sending their military out and about more than the US public.

Why didn't France?

We get to help allies, allies get easier access to oil, and we get to save civilians. So you have your altruistic and humanitarian goals aligned. Go team.

There will be no foreign troops on the ground in Libya, unless the rebels say so. The rebels don't want us there. We don't want to go there.

This is still very much a "everyone wins" scenario.
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Re: Libya's Protests and Civil War

Postby Dauric » Fri Mar 25, 2011 8:12 pm UTC

Zamfir wrote:
Telchar wrote:
Bolded mine. This appears to be congress authrizing the president to use armed forces at the request of the UNSC under article 42.

Sure, but that still leaves the question why they voted for it in the first place. Or didn't veto, actually. Bit weird to vote in favour of an action, then go home and say "we don't want to do it, but the UNSC asked us to do it so we have to".


Both China and Russia are under lot of pressure in recent years about their respective human rights records (Chechnya and Tibet being examples that come immediately to mind), to veto a mission that expressly states that it's purpose is to protect civilians from a dictator who is not restricting his attacks to military targets would not reflect well on them and could cause increased issues in the U.N. General Assembly.

Given their voting record in the Sec. Council, to simply abstain is an easy out. They can play the "concerned for civilians" card, while simultaneously being against foreign (IE: U.S.) military involvement in the situation. Given that Gadaffi declared a cease-fire, then turned around and ordered more airstrikes within hours of the cease-fire declaration I doubt that most nations consider him diplomatically trustworthy, which may have made the decision easier. Its one thing to have a dictator saying "Yeah I'm abusing my people and hiding a nuclear program, what'cu gunna do about it?!", it's another entirely to have a national leader that can't be trusted to adhere to any agreements he makes.

There may have been some diplomatic arm twisting, but I don't think they had to twist hard. Both Russia and China generally hold out a lot longer on these kinds of issues.
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Re: Libya's Protests and Civil War

Postby omgryebread » Sat Mar 26, 2011 3:35 am UTC

Heisenberg wrote:So, you think we're going into Libya for political reasons. Some in this thread think we're there to protect civilians. We may be going after the Lockerbie bomber. What I'd like to know is what rationale the representative of the American people and Commander-In-Chief has for starting another war.

Why is your credit card statement Press Conference-worthy while initiating hostilities with a sovereign nation not?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mHK5l_stYcE

To quote from 0:08 to 0:13, "support of an international effort to protect Libyan civilians."
1:31 to 1:37 "but we cannot stand idly by when a tyrant tells his people 'there will be no mercy'"

Damn, that sounds like a rationale.

So you don't agree that we should protect Libyan civilians. But I'm pretty sure that "justification" doesn't mean "justification you agree with."
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Re: Libya's Protests and Civil War

Postby Diadem » Sat Mar 26, 2011 4:59 am UTC

Maybe somewhat offtopic. But something has been bothering me a bit.

Why is everybody pretending this is an American initiative? Here on the forums, but all American media too. Even Jon Stewart, who is usually better informed. The initiative for these actions came from France, and they were initially led by France and the UK. The US just gave military support, but had / has neither political nor military leadership.
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Re: Libya's Protests and Civil War

Postby Korrente » Sat Mar 26, 2011 5:59 am UTC

Diadem wrote:Maybe somewhat offtopic. But something has been bothering me a bit.

Why is everybody pretending this is an American initiative? Here on the forums, but all American media too. Even Jon Stewart, who is usually better informed. The initiative for these actions came from France, and they were initially led by France and the UK. The US just gave military support, but had / has neither political nor military leadership.


Probably because of the large American presence here (I assume a large percentage of the forum's users are American). Also because American Media is American, they like to take a position that their audience can relate to. Also because Americans are probably the only country with pundits that can sit with a straight face and say "We should have been there sooner" and "We shouldn't have just jumped in like that" at the same time. I haven't really heard much from other countries about being so polarized on the issue either, but then it could be because everything is very America-centric.

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Re: Libya's Protests and Civil War

Postby JamesP » Sat Mar 26, 2011 12:24 pm UTC

Korrente is right. In Britain it's RAF BOYS SAVE THE DAY! In France it's ZE FRANCAIS PLANES EST SUPER! Etc etc.

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Re: Libya's Protests and Civil War

Postby Eowiel » Sat Mar 26, 2011 2:57 pm UTC

Diadem wrote:Maybe somewhat offtopic. But something has been bothering me a bit.

Why is everybody pretending this is an American initiative? Here on the forums, but all American media too. Even Jon Stewart, who is usually better informed. The initiative for these actions came from France, and they were initially led by France and the UK. The US just gave military support, but had / has neither political nor military leadership.


While the intitiative may not have originated from the US, the US is still supplying the brunt of the firepower. The US has more airplanes and more ships committed to the conflict than France and the UK combined. Letting France and to a lesser extend the UK take the lead of this operation has to be seen more as a nice gesture by the US than a true reflection of who has done the most effort I think.

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Re: Libya's Protests and Civil War

Postby Hawknc » Sat Mar 26, 2011 3:13 pm UTC

JamesP wrote:In Britain it's RAF BOYS SAVE THE DAY!

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