Wisconsin Governor battles Unions over budget. Dem Sens Flee

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Re: Wisconsin Governor battles Unions over budget. Dem Sens

Postby Jessica » Mon Mar 07, 2011 10:52 pm UTC

Lucrece wrote:Tenure is there to protect the professor's ability to teach content that could be considered controversial in other places. Academia has a long, ugly history of reprisal against individuals with unpopular but ultimately vindicated ideas. Tenure's scope just needs to be reduced so it doesn't serve as an immunity shield for professors who think it gives them an ability to be unmitigated dicks.
That. Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.
Tenure also gives incentives for teachers to spend the time doing the extra education to get their job, and then stick with it, even though the aren't payed well compared to other similar jobs, and have to deal with children. It clearly is a bad idea to try and have a new teaching staff every year. Or every 5 years.
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Re: Wisconsin Governor battles Unions over budget. Dem Sens

Postby Dark567 » Mon Mar 07, 2011 10:59 pm UTC

Lucrece wrote:Tenure is there to protect the professor's ability to teach content that could be considered controversial in other places. Academia has a long, ugly history of reprisal against individuals with unpopular but ultimately vindicated ideas. Tenure's scope just needs to be reduced so it doesn't serve as an immunity shield for professors who think it gives them an ability to be unmitigated dicks.

Well, I wasn't really aiming at professors, who really are the people this is intended to protect. For the most part(evolution aside), tenure has become an outdated aspect of high school and certainly in elementary school its unnecessary, hell it probably has the reverse effect, more teachers refusing to teach the curricula because they can get away with it.

Jessica wrote:Tenure also gives incentives for teachers to spend the time doing the extra education to get their job, and then stick with it, even though the aren't payed well compared to other similar jobs, and have to deal with children.
Isn't the reason teachers teach because they like working with children. Quite frankly if the opposite is true, I don't want them to be a teacher.

Also out of curiosity, what qualifies as a similar job to teaching? Because I see the comparison made a lot, but not a ton of examples come to mind. Are we just talking about jobs that require college degrees?
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Re: Wisconsin Governor battles Unions over budget. Dem Sens

Postby Vaniver » Tue Mar 08, 2011 1:51 am UTC

Lucrece wrote:Yes, said students.
I had elementary to high school students in mind, though I know I linked to a study about college. I agree with you entirely that the use of bachelor's degrees for signaling is a massive waste of societal resources. We ought to let employers give IQ tests again, and then the demand for college degrees in fields like that will evaporate.
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Re: Wisconsin Governor battles Unions over budget. Dem Sens

Postby Dark567 » Tue Mar 08, 2011 1:56 am UTC

Vaniver wrote: We ought to let employers give IQ tests again, and then the demand for college degrees in fields like that will evaporate.

Can't they? I have taken standardized tests in the process of interviewing(the wonderlic, I believe). Thats pretty much the same thing.
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Re: Wisconsin Governor battles Unions over budget. Dem Sens

Postby addams » Tue Mar 08, 2011 2:09 am UTC

Dark567 wrote:
Vaniver wrote: We ought to let employers give IQ tests again, and then the demand for college degrees in fields like that will evaporate.

Can't they? I have taken standardized tests in the process of interviewing(the wonderlic, I believe). Thats pretty much the same thing.


A twelve minute test?

Five hours a day for three days? Yes.

Two hour blocks given on five different days? Yes.

Twelve minutes? Really?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wonderlic_Test

That woman. She said, "Everyone has an opinion. Not everyone's opinion is equally valid." She is right.

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She, also, said, "The best predictor of low academic performance is poverty—not bad teachers."

She is 'right' again. Of course, there are exceptions. I am an exception.

Impoverishing the children of teachers will not drive your test scores up.

Right to work laws?

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Re: Wisconsin Governor battles Unions over budget. Dem Sens

Postby Vaniver » Tue Mar 08, 2011 2:35 am UTC

Dark567 wrote:Can't they? I have taken standardized tests in the process of interviewing(the wonderlic, I believe). Thats pretty much the same thing.
It is possible, but Title VII of the CRA means it can cause significant legal trouble (you have to show that the material of the test is related to the job and that it is a business necessity). Apparently the same can be true of college degrees (but I imagine it's much easier to defend that in court).
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Re: Wisconsin Governor battles Unions over budget. Dem Sens

Postby Dark567 » Tue Mar 08, 2011 2:41 am UTC

If the NFL can tests for the intelligence of football players, I don't understand how you couldn't test for almost any job....
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Re: Wisconsin Governor battles Unions over budget. Dem Sens

Postby Garm » Tue Mar 08, 2011 4:17 am UTC

Everybody loves harping on teachers because education is seen as the panacea for the ills of society. It's really not. Someone earlier asked if teachers had an equivalent job but they really don't for the above reason.
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Re: Wisconsin Governor battles Unions over budget. Dem Sens

Postby Lucrece » Tue Mar 08, 2011 4:54 am UTC

Garm wrote:Everybody loves harping on teachers because education is seen as the panacea for the ills of society. It's really not. Someone earlier asked if teachers had an equivalent job but they really don't for the above reason.


This as well. I know a lot of "brilliant", incredibly successful students who nonetheless are shitty, selfish, prejudiced humans beings that mainly thrive for self interest-- be it power or monetary gain at the expense of others.

It's often under this assumption that people are surprised when doctors/lawyers/scientists do pretty harmful things and people are totally surprised, thinking that academic performance translates into spiritual fitness.

Teachers will be hard pressed-- as often deemed nagging authority figures-- to compete against shitty, uninvolved parenting and tainting friendships when it comes to outcome of a person. They can only take care of teaching their subject, but more often than not it's behavioral habits that set students back-- habits that are reinforced over decades and one year in your class is hard-pressed to counter.
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Re: Wisconsin Governor battles Unions over budget. Dem Sens

Postby Jessica » Wed Mar 09, 2011 5:24 pm UTC

So, last night Rachel Maddow talked about Governor starting to concede.

Yay!! :D

We shall see what happens in the future, but it's about time he conceded. Of course, the waves of other governors doing the same thing still is radiating outward from Wisconsin, but still. At least they'll lose in Wisconsin.
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Re: Wisconsin Governor battles Unions over budget. Dem Sens

Postby Dark567 » Thu Mar 10, 2011 12:29 am UTC

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/03/0 ... 33796.html

They broke out the collective bargaining stuff and are going to pass it separately without the Dems.

EDIT: It passed. Now it just awaits the assembly.
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Re: Wisconsin Governor battles Unions over budget. Dem Sens

Postby McCaber » Thu Mar 10, 2011 1:26 am UTC

Well, this changes things. My Facebook feed is going nuts with all the upset comments.

You know, at least people started caring about politics. We live in a new Gilded Age, from everything I can tell.
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Re: Wisconsin Governor battles Unions over budget. Dem Sens

Postby Not A Raptor » Thu Mar 10, 2011 5:49 am UTC

I wonder if these people remember the Bonus Army...
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Re: Wisconsin Governor battles Unions over budget. Dem Sens

Postby McCaber » Thu Mar 10, 2011 6:20 am UTC

Not A Raptor wrote:I wonder if these people remember the Bonus Army...


With the massive decrease in school funding, soon NO ONE will!
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Re: Wisconsin Governor battles Unions over budget. Dem Sens

Postby Lucrece » Thu Mar 10, 2011 6:23 am UTC

People can get angry all they want. Those Republicans got elected by huge margins and most likely represent the majority of the constituency. It just so happens that the opposition is the one getting media time because they're kicking up protests. Prop 8 passed in California and a shitload of highly televised protests took place. Guess what? The polls still showed support for Prop 8 in 2010 and part of the reason why repeal advocates backed off a 2010 repeal.

These protests are more about venting feelings than accomplishing some change of mind. Especially when there's no police brutality or widespread governmental oppression to give them an image of justice.

The sad part is that the jackasses who voted these Republicans into office will absolve themselves from blame or accountability when shit hits the fan from Republicans' disastrous policies. The independents will go back to voting Democrats and pretend like it's a mess solely politicians are responsible and it must be fixed ASAP. Moreover, people will only realize the damage when it's too late and then it'll be decades to recover from that shit.
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Re: Wisconsin Governor battles Unions over budget. Dem Sens

Postby big boss » Thu Mar 10, 2011 7:09 am UTC

There is no way what the republicans did to pass this bill is legal. The entire bill was meant to balance the budget ergo every component of that bill was financial related, the republicans even claimed union stripping would somehow help balance the budget, and bills involving financial components by Wisconsin law requires quorum to be voted on.
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Re: Wisconsin Governor battles Unions over budget. Dem Sens

Postby Thesh » Thu Mar 10, 2011 7:15 am UTC

big boss wrote:There is no way what the republicans did to pass this bill is legal. The entire bill was meant to balance the budget ergo every component of that bill was financial related, the republicans even claimed union stripping would somehow help balance the budget, and bills involving financial components by Wisconsin law requires quorum to be voted on.


No, that's not true; the budget is spending. Something like collective bargaining is not spending; it could allow the state to potentially alter educational spending, but it doesn't directly do so. Underhanded? sure. Less so than the dems boycotting the budget vote? I don't think so.
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Re: Wisconsin Governor battles Unions over budget. Dem Sens

Postby addams » Thu Mar 10, 2011 7:24 am UTC

This is how they did it.
http://www.channel3000.com/politics/271 ... etail.html

The hypocrites! They made a passionate argument about money.
Then, they took the money out of the law and passed it.

Bullies. These people are bullies. Bush and Co. were bullies.
Walker and his team are bullies.
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Re: Wisconsin Governor battles Unions over budget. Dem Sens

Postby Jahoclave » Thu Mar 10, 2011 7:39 am UTC

Lucrece wrote:People can get angry all they want. Those Republicans got elected by huge margins and most likely represent the majority of the constituency. It just so happens that the opposition is the one getting media time because they're kicking up protests. Prop 8 passed in California and a shitload of highly televised protests took place. Guess what? The polls still showed support for Prop 8 in 2010 and part of the reason why repeal advocates backed off a 2010 repeal.

These protests are more about venting feelings than accomplishing some change of mind. Especially when there's no police brutality or widespread governmental oppression to give them an image of justice.

The sad part is that the jackasses who voted these Republicans into office will absolve themselves from blame or accountability when shit hits the fan from Republicans' disastrous policies. The independents will go back to voting Democrats and pretend like it's a mess solely politicians are responsible and it must be fixed ASAP. Moreover, people will only realize the damage when it's too late and then it'll be decades to recover from that shit.

Well, other than the government sanctioned economic oppression they just passed.

@Addams, like I made a case for in a blog I did (and alluded to in other things I've read): It's not really about budget solving, it's about punishing people who vote for democrats. Why do you think it's okay to fund NASCAR but not Planned Parenthood? They're using the budget crises as a shield to eliminate anything and everything that doesn't support their narrow ideology, almost seemingly out of spite in quite a few cases. This is just an example of the punishment they feel is their right to dole out. Sure, they dress it up as "fair" share or "just," but what they really mean is that the only fair thing is that you must suffer for not being a white christian conservative. You sinned by voting for those Fascist, Muslim, Baby-Killing, Adulterous, Atheist, Socialist, Communist, America-Hating, Elitist, Democrats. They are doing to Lord's work by punishing those who would dare mess with His favorite and greatest creation.

A little hyperbolic, yeah, but then again, I've never seen them phrase it as "swaying the minds of others to our viewpoint to enact legislation we find favorable while still considering the needs of the minority of the country" either. Somehow "take back OUR country" seems a little vindictive and exclusionary.

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Re: Wisconsin Governor battles Unions over budget. Dem Sens

Postby Silknor » Thu Mar 10, 2011 7:54 am UTC

big boss wrote:There is no way what the republicans did to pass this bill is legal. The entire bill was meant to balance the budget ergo every component of that bill was financial related, the republicans even claimed union stripping would somehow help balance the budget, and bills involving financial components by Wisconsin law requires quorum to be voted on.


The quorum is required for builds that spend money. Removing collective bargaining very clearly doesn't spend money, and no one would be questioning the process if it hadn't been part of the budget bill to start with. Their political justifications for it has nothing to do with quorum requirements (though apparently the legality might be in question for a different reason: the Committee may not have abode by laws requiring meetings to be announced in advanced).

Also, it seems pretty clear how making public sector unions helps balance the budget: the more bargaining power the unions have, presumably the higher the benefits/pay they'll be able to get for their members. You make unions weaker (or even more directly, forbid them from negotiating most of their compensation) and increases in compensation will get smaller. All those claims about how unions help protect middle class wages? Yeah, that's why removing collective bargaining can save money, even if it's not a budgetary matter.

While I don't agree with the policy passed here, this is how things are supposed to work. People vote in representatives, who then get to enact policies that at least 50% of representatives support. Supermajority rules are hugely problematic, just look at the US Senate or California. If the representatives enact unpopular laws, they get voted out. As a matter of process, I actually prefer that this passed outside of the budget than inside it because it's generally a better process to pass smaller things and not try to force people to vote for some policy they wouldn't support otherwise by attaching it to a critical budget bill.
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Re: Wisconsin Governor battles Unions over budget. Dem Sens

Postby Steroid » Thu Mar 10, 2011 11:29 am UTC

addams wrote:This is how they did it.
http://www.channel3000.com/politics/271 ... etail.html

The hypocrites! They made a passionate argument about money.
Then, they took the money out of the law and passed it.

Bullies. These people are bullies. Bush and Co. were bullies.
Walker and his team are bullies.

Have you not been following the story? The Republicans wanted to pass the full bill with all the money stuff for a month, quite willing to have a vote that followed the rules, but it's the Democrats who played the bully's tactic of "keep-away." And not only that, but they've gotten those Democrats back by this move, so if nothing else it worked as a bluff.

You want to talk hypocrisy? Anthony Wiener, D-NY, got on the US Senate floor and screamed at the Republicans for "wrapping themselves around procedure." "You vote yes if you believe it's the right thing; If you believe it's the wrong thing you vote no." (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4zwCMf8dsc). But apparently that policy doesn't apply at the state level, or for these Democrats. The Democratic party is not built around great principle or honor, no more than is the Republican party. The only principle they adhere to is that of taking wealth out of the hands of those who earned it by voluntary agreement and giving it to those who take it by fiat. I don't know whether the giving is to ensure their sinecures and make sure they don't have to work, or if the work they do is all to the end of giving away money for the sake of giving it, or for the sake of taking it. I also don't know which is worse.

Jahoclave wrote:@Addams, like I made a case for in a blog I did (and alluded to in other things I've read): It's not really about budget solving, it's about punishing people who vote for democrats. Why do you think it's okay to fund NASCAR but not Planned Parenthood? They're using the budget crises as a shield to eliminate anything and everything that doesn't support their narrow ideology, almost seemingly out of spite in quite a few cases. This is just an example of the punishment they feel is their right to dole out. Sure, they dress it up as "fair" share or "just," but what they really mean is that the only fair thing is that you must suffer for not being a white christian conservative. You sinned by voting for those Fascist, Muslim, Baby-Killing, Adulterous, Atheist, Socialist, Communist, America-Hating, Elitist, Democrats. They are doing to Lord's work by punishing those who would dare mess with His favorite and greatest creation.


Why do you think the Democrats fund Planned Parenthood and not NASCAR? (And by funding NASCAR we mean allowing the military to purchase advertising space on cars--money that NASCAR could get elsewhere and that presumably the military feels is profitable in helping recruit and so achieve their goals.) It's to reward those same ideologies that you say the Republicans seek to punish. It's just that some people think that being too stupid to use birth control when you can't afford to/don't want to spend the time and money for the pregnancy that might ensue isn't something that ought to be rewarded. And that because they know that you get more of what you incentivize, and that incentivizing the screwing up of your life isn't going to help.

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Re: Wisconsin Governor battles Unions over budget. Dem Sens

Postby omgryebread » Thu Mar 10, 2011 3:21 pm UTC

Vaniver wrote:
Lucrece wrote:Yes, said students.
I had elementary to high school students in mind, though I know I linked to a study about college. I agree with you entirely that the use of bachelor's degrees for signaling is a massive waste of societal resources. We ought to let employers give IQ tests again, and then the demand for college degrees in fields like that will evaporate.

Somehow, replacing inefficient signaling with bad signaling seems a pretty bad idea. Taking wealth as a proxy for sucess in the private sector:
http://paul.kedrosky.com/archives/2007/04/24/if_youre_so_dum.html

I'd say its on the same level as prohibiting polygraph tests. Both are bad tests. It could be argued that we should let bussinesses be free to make bad choices, but I don't trust the invisible hand that much, personally.
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Re: Wisconsin Governor battles Unions over budget. Dem Sens

Postby Dark567 » Thu Mar 10, 2011 3:48 pm UTC

omgryebread wrote:Somehow, replacing inefficient signaling with bad signaling seems a pretty bad idea. Taking wealth as a proxy for sucess in the private sector:
http://paul.kedrosky.com/archives/2007/04/24/if_youre_so_dum.html
Don't take wealth, take income. The correlation between income and IQ is pretty strong. High IQ people though seem to be just as bad at racking up debt and averse to saving as the population in general.
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Re: Wisconsin Governor battles Unions over budget. Dem Sens

Postby podbaydoor » Thu Mar 10, 2011 3:56 pm UTC

It's just that some people think that being too stupid to use birth control when you can't afford to/don't want to spend the time and money for the pregnancy that might ensue isn't something that ought to be rewarded.

Abortion is not a reward in any fucking sense of the term.
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Re: Wisconsin Governor battles Unions over budget. Dem Sens

Postby Garm » Thu Mar 10, 2011 4:22 pm UTC

Well at least this removes any pretense that this was ever about fixing the budget shortfalls.

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Re: Wisconsin Governor battles Unions over budget. Dem Sens

Postby Bubbles McCoy » Thu Mar 10, 2011 4:29 pm UTC

Garm wrote:Republicans: Governance against the people since 1980.

I can understand disagreeing with the idea, but do you really believe every claim in this thread that bargaining as it exists now works against education was tantamount to a blatant lie? Even if you disagree with them, there are legitimate reasons to believe union bargaining over administrative elements of schools decreases educational quality.

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Re: Wisconsin Governor battles Unions over budget. Dem Sens

Postby Dark567 » Thu Mar 10, 2011 4:34 pm UTC

Bubbles McCoy wrote:
Garm wrote:Republicans: Governance against the people since 1980.

I can understand disagreeing with the idea, but do you really believe every claim in this thread that bargaining as it exists now works against education was tantamount to a blatant lie? Even if you disagree with them, there are legitimate reasons to believe union bargaining over administrative elements of schools decreases educational quality.

Yeah, but those weren't the reasons Walker was giving, even though those are legitimate reasons.
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Re: Wisconsin Governor battles Unions over budget. Dem Sens

Postby Jessica » Thu Mar 10, 2011 4:37 pm UTC

Bubbles McCoy wrote:
Garm wrote:Republicans: Governance against the people since 1980.
I can understand disagreeing with the idea, but do you really believe every claim in this thread that bargaining as it exists now works against education was tantamount to a blatant lie? Even if you disagree with them, there are legitimate reasons to believe union bargaining over administrative elements of schools decreases educational quality.
I think there are two discussions going on: the one about Wisconsin's removal of all bargaining rights for all state employees (save the police, the fire dept, and the state troopers) for budgetary reasons, and the other about teachers unions specifically, and about whether they hinder teaching.

Garm's replying to the first. The second one is tangential to the original topic, and probably not encompassed in that statement.
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Re: Wisconsin Governor battles Unions over budget. Dem Sens

Postby Hawknc » Thu Mar 10, 2011 4:39 pm UTC

podbaydoor wrote:
It's just that some people think that being too stupid to use birth control when you can't afford to/don't want to spend the time and money for the pregnancy that might ensue isn't something that ought to be rewarded.

Abortion is not a reward in any fucking sense of the term.

Let's take this as gospel for this thread and not debate abortion here.

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Re: Wisconsin Governor battles Unions over budget. Dem Sens

Postby Bubbles McCoy » Thu Mar 10, 2011 4:50 pm UTC

Dark567 (and in a similar vein of thought, Jess) wrote:Yeah, but those weren't the reasons Walker was giving, even though those are legitimate reasons.

I suppose. I guess the problem there is that how a politician goes about marketing things is a bit different then the underlying reasons; trying to make a complex argument against union power over administration on account of long term hysteresis tends to err heavily on the wonky side of things, which this political debate most certainly was not. I thought there still were a few direct budgetary benefits from doing things like combining a few different health insurance systems, but yeah the primary expected benefit of a move like this isn't directly budgetary. I guess I'm actually a little unclear on how health benefits played out here - I know the union was fairly resistant to the change initially, but did they eventually cede on that point? I know they agreed to wage and contribution changes, but but the elimination of a distinct health system for the teachers was a point of contention.

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Re: Wisconsin Governor battles Unions over budget. Dem Sens

Postby jesseewiak » Thu Mar 10, 2011 4:52 pm UTC

Lucrece wrote:People can get angry all they want. Those Republicans got elected by huge margins and most likely represent the majority of the constituency. It just so happens that the opposition is the one getting media time because they're kicking up protests. Prop 8 passed in California and a shitload of highly televised protests took place. Guess what? The polls still showed support for Prop 8 in 2010 and part of the reason why repeal advocates backed off a 2010 repeal.


Actually, many of the state Senator's were elected by less than 1,000 votes and six of them won in districts that were won by Obama in '08. In addition, multiple polls has shown people by near two-to-one margins are against the collective bargaining destruction provisions of the bills. After all, when the state is split on recalling a Governor that has been in office only a little over a month, that means things haven't gotten great for him. Which makes things totally different from the situation in Prop 8.

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Re: Wisconsin Governor battles Unions over budget. Dem Sens

Postby Garm » Thu Mar 10, 2011 5:14 pm UTC

Collective bargaining is an important component of the people's ability to check the power of the government and the corporations. Removing this weakens people's ability to act within their own country. We are supposed to be governed by a government for the people and by the people. Instead what we have are politicians like Walker (or Scott down in Florida) who are more interested in enriching themselves and their friends. We're moving, slowly but surely, to a government for the corporations and rich, by the same. Walker's budget shortfall is only vaguely real and he's taking out of the backs of the unions to pay for it.
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Re: Wisconsin Governor battles Unions over budget. Dem Sens

Postby Dark567 » Thu Mar 10, 2011 5:28 pm UTC

Bubbles McCoy wrote:I suppose. I guess the problem there is that how a politician goes about marketing things is a bit different then the underlying reasons; trying to make a complex argument against union power over administration on account of long term hysteresis tends to err heavily on the wonky side of things, which this political debate most certainly was not. I thought there still were a few direct budgetary benefits from doing things like combining a few different health insurance systems, but yeah the primary expected benefit of a move like this isn't directly budgetary. I guess I'm actually a little unclear on how health benefits played out here - I know the union was fairly resistant to the change initially, but did they eventually cede on that point? I know they agreed to wage and contribution changes, but but the elimination of a distinct health system for the teachers was a point of contention.
If I recall the governor was willing to allow the health system in his email exchanges. The real point that they couldn't come to an agreement on was Walker's plan to no longer have the state collect union dues and no longer mandate "fair-share" payments for non-members.
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Re: Wisconsin Governor battles Unions over budget. Dem Sens

Postby sourmìlk » Thu Mar 10, 2011 5:43 pm UTC

The only principle they adhere to is that of taking wealth out of the hands of those who earned it by voluntary agreement and giving it to those who take it by fiat. I don't know whether the giving is to ensure their sinecures and make sure they don't have to work, or if the work they do is all to the end of giving away money for the sake of giving it, or for the sake of taking it. I also don't know which is worse.


Funding a social safety net is not the same as giving away money "for the sake of giving it", and your description of taxation, "Taking wealth out of the hands who earned it..." is misleading. Democrats (should, at least) only redistribute wealth to the degree that everybody is able to not go hungry on the streets, and I'd imagine you'd agree with this if you agree that life is a fundamental right.
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Re: Wisconsin Governor battles Unions over budget. Dem Sens

Postby Silknor » Thu Mar 10, 2011 6:00 pm UTC

Garm wrote:Collective bargaining is an important component of the people's ability to check the power of the government and the corporations. Removing this weakens people's ability to act within their own country. We are supposed to be governed by a government for the people and by the people. Instead what we have are politicians like Walker (or Scott down in Florida) who are more interested in enriching themselves and their friends. We're moving, slowly but surely, to a government for the corporations and rich, by the same. Walker's budget shortfall is only vaguely real and he's taking out of the backs of the unions to pay for it.


How exactly does collective bargaining for public employees check the power of the government? Collective bargaining is great for helping public employees get better compensation, working conditions, etc. And since labor moves between sectors, it has some positive effects for private sectors workers too. But except for the power of the government to pay low wages and benefits or demand long work weeks from their employees, what power of government is checked? Collective bargaining has nothing to do with what people think of when they talk about the government being too powerful: it doesn't affect civil liberties or regulation of industry, or even the overall level of taxation (much).

Also, there is a pretty serious budget shortfall coming in Wisconsin ($3.6 billion over the next two years, the fact that he recently passed tax cuts that are almost as large as this year's deficit is meaningless because they pale in comparison to the size of next years and they don't affect this years deficit). Eliminating collective bargaining may or may not affect this much, but that doesn't mean there isn't a deficit.
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Re: Wisconsin Governor battles Unions over budget. Dem Sens

Postby sourmìlk » Thu Mar 10, 2011 6:14 pm UTC

Silknor wrote:But except for the power of the government to pay low wages and benefits or demand long work weeks from their employees, what power of government is checked?


My guess is that this was all he was referring to

Silknor wrote:Also, there is a pretty serious budget shortfall coming in Wisconsin ($3.6 billion over the next two years, the fact that he recently passed tax cuts that are almost as large as this year's deficit is meaningless because they pale in comparison to the size of next years and they don't affect this years deficit). Eliminating collective bargaining may or may not affect this much, but that doesn't mean there isn't a deficit.


I don't approve of taking away people's rights because it "may or may not affect" things much. Furthermore, I'm not sure it's fair to blame unions for the $140 million deficit when Walker just gave away $140 million in corporate handouts.
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Re: Wisconsin Governor battles Unions over budget. Dem Sens

Postby Silknor » Thu Mar 10, 2011 6:34 pm UTC

What I was saying is that the tax cuts aren't responsible for the $137 million deficit simply because they start for next year's budget. I also wasn't speaking to the wisdom of removing collective bargaining rights, only noting that the deficit in Wisconsin is real.
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Re: Wisconsin Governor battles Unions over budget. Dem Sens

Postby Jahoclave » Thu Mar 10, 2011 7:33 pm UTC

Silknor wrote:What I was saying is that the tax cuts aren't responsible for the $137 million deficit simply because they start for next year's budget. I also wasn't speaking to the wisdom of removing collective bargaining rights, only noting that the deficit in Wisconsin is real.

This: Except, you know, as fair shares go, he could repeal those tax cuts and have less of a budget problem next year. You know, to demonstrate that everybody has to sacrifice, not just people who don't vote Republican.

As for NASCAR v Planned Parenthood.
NASCAR--Entertainment, can likely get funds elsewhere, provides little actual service with that money to people beyond entertainment.
P2: Provides low income women with healthcare that saves lives.

So, if you're trying to save money, which do you cut first? Things that provide little service to the population, or one that saves lives? Think on that long and hard before you say something that makes you a complete asshole.

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Re: Wisconsin Governor battles Unions over budget. Dem Sens

Postby Garm » Thu Mar 10, 2011 7:36 pm UTC

Silknor wrote:What I was saying is that the tax cuts aren't responsible for the $137 million deficit simply because they start for next year's budget. I also wasn't speaking to the wisdom of removing collective bargaining rights, only noting that the deficit in Wisconsin is real.


The deficit IS real. The largest portion of the deficit is Medicare and Medicaid. Tell me again why we don't need health care reform in this country? Tell me again why this is the fault of public unions? This is like a microcosm of what's happening with the federal budget. The deficit will spiral out of control in the future due to medical costs. Or it was going to anyway if we hadn't done something about it. It's still a problem that needs to get taken care of, just not such an immediate one. Gov. Walker's solution, to eliminate state support healthcare and do away with medicare, isn't a good solution, though it will fix the budget problem.
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Re: Wisconsin Governor battles Unions over budget. Dem Sens

Postby Dark567 » Thu Mar 10, 2011 7:42 pm UTC

Jahoclave wrote:As for NASCAR v Planned Parenthood.
NASCAR--Entertainment, can likely get funds elsewhere, provides little actual service with that money to people beyond entertainment.
P2: Provides low income women with healthcare that saves lives.
Guys, I have a solution to advertise recruiting for the Army and fund planned parenthood:

Planned Parenthood, sponsored by the US Army. Be all you can be.
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