CNN article: are whites racially oppressed? :facepalm:

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CNN article: are whites racially oppressed? :facepalm:

Postby Роберт » Fri Mar 04, 2011 5:31 pm UTC

Got to love "white persecution" in the url: http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/12/21/white. ... on/?hpt=T2
Those poor, oppressed whites!
• A recent Public Religion Research Institute poll found 44% of Americans surveyed identify discrimination against whites as being just as big as bigotry aimed at blacks and other minorities. The poll found 61% of those identifying with the Tea Party held that view, as did 56% of Republicans and 57% of white evangelicals.
• More colleges are offering courses in "Whiteness Studies" as white Americans cope with becoming what one commentator calls a "dispossessed majority group."
• A Texas group recently formed the "Former Majority Association for Equality" to offer college scholarships to needy white men. Colby Bohannan, the group's president, says white men don't have scholarship options available to minorities. "White males are definitely not a majority" anymore, he says.
• U.S. Census Bureau projections that whites will become a minority by 2050 are fueling fears that whiteness no longer represents the norm. This fear has been compounded by the recent recession, which hit whites hard.

Full article:
Spoiler:
(CNN) -- They marched on Washington to reclaim civil rights.
They complained of voter intimidation at the polls.
They called for ethnic studies programs to promote racial pride.
They are, some say, the new face of racial oppression in this nation -- and their faces are white.
"We went from being a privileged group to all of a sudden becoming whites, the new victims,'' says Charles Gallagher, a sociologist at La Salle University in Pennsylvania who researches white racial attitudes and was baffled to find that whites see themselves as a minority.
"You have this perception out there that whites are no longer in control or the majority. Whites are the new minority group."
Call it racial jujitsu: A growing number of white Americans are acting like a racially oppressed majority. They are adopting the language and protest tactics of an embattled minority group, scholars and commentators say.
They point to these signs of racial anxiety:
• A recent Public Religion Research Institute poll found 44% of Americans surveyed identify discrimination against whites as being just as big as bigotry aimed at blacks and other minorities. The poll found 61% of those identifying with the Tea Party held that view, as did 56% of Republicans and 57% of white evangelicals.
• More colleges are offering courses in "Whiteness Studies" as white Americans cope with becoming what one commentator calls a "dispossessed majority group."
• A Texas group recently formed the "Former Majority Association for Equality" to offer college scholarships to needy white men. Colby Bohannan, the group's president, says white men don't have scholarship options available to minorities. "White males are definitely not a majority" anymore, he says.
• U.S. Census Bureau projections that whites will become a minority by 2050 are fueling fears that whiteness no longer represents the norm. This fear has been compounded by the recent recession, which hit whites hard.
• Conservative talk-show host Rush Limbaugh argued in a radio show that Republicans are an "oppressed minority" in need of a "civil rights movement" because its members willingly sit in the "back of the bus" and "are afraid of the fire hoses and the dogs."
• Fox talk-show host Glenn Beck led a march on Washington (attended primarily by white people) to "restore honor," and once called President Obama a racist with a "deep-seated hatred for white people and white culture." He later said he regretted making that comment.
• Conservative news outlets ran a number of stories last summer highlighting an incident from the 2008 elections, in which activists from the New Black Panther Party appeared to be intimidating voters at a polling place. Those claims were never proven.
Mass rallies in Washington, voter intimidation at the polls, creating ethnic studies programs at colleges to promote racial self-awareness -- it sounds like a script from a civil rights documentary.
But not everyone buys that script. Mona Charen, a conservative columnist for the National Review, challenges that view with this question: If more white Americans feel like an embattled minority, why did they elect President Barack Obama?
"Did they become racist after electing the first black president?" she asks.
Charen says the United States today is "incredibly tolerant and open."
Sure, she says, there are individuals who nurture racial animosity, but most Americans deserve praise for looking past race.
The proof, she says, isn't just in the fact that the nation elected its first black president. She cites the rise of more interracial couples.
"When I grew up, it was incredibly rare to see interracial couples," she says. "People would turn their heads on the streets. Now it's so common that no one notices it anymore."
When white is no longer the norm

Tim Wise says the recession hit blue-collar, white Americans hard, financially and psychologically.
The notion that many white Americans feel anxious about their race is not new. Today, however, economic anxieties are feeding those racial fears, says Tim Wise, author of "White Like Me."
Wise says the recession hit blue-collar, white Americans hard, financially and psychologically.
Many white Americans have lived under the assumption that if they worked hard, they would be rewarded. Now more white Americans are sharing unemployment lines with "those people" -- black and brown, Wise says.
"For the first time since the Great Depression, white Americans have been confronted with a level of economic insecurity that we're not used to," he says. "It's not so new for black and brown folks, but for white folks, this is something we haven't seen since the Depression."
Economic insecurity is what Colby Bohannan says convinced him to form the "Former Majority Association for Equality." The association is awarding $500 scholarships to five deserving white men because they aren't eligible for scholarships reserved for women and minorities, he says.
"Living in America, you hear about this minority or that minority, but it's never been used in the same sense for Caucasian Americans," Bohannan says. "There was no one for white males until we came around."
Bohannan says the formation of his group was not motivated by racism, nor will it accept donations from hate groups.
"We're not trying to promote racial bigotry," Bohannan says. "All we're about is helping college students trying to better their lives who happen to be white males."
Some white Americans not only feel ignored in higher education; they feel excluded by popular culture.
The face of America is changing, says Wise, author of "White Like Me." American culture has become so multicultural that many of the nation's icons -- including celebrities, sports heroes, and other leaders -- are people of color.
"The very definition of being an American is going through a profound change," Wise says. "We can no longer take it for granted that we (whites) are the dictionary definition of an American."
This racial unease is more pronounced among older white Americans, who grew up in an era where America's icons were virtually all white, Wise says.
"The idea that we're losing our country is something that's not going to have a lot of resonance for someone under 30," Wise says. "These are white folks who don't remember the country that their parents are talking about."
With white no longer the norm, more white Americans are hitting the books to ask a question that few felt a need to ask before: What does it mean to be white?
"Whiteness Studies" began popping up in a few isolated academic institutions in the 1990s. Now such programs can be found in places such as the University of Wisconsin and the University of Utah. These courses examine what whiteness has meant during different periods of American history.
For many decades, white people saw themselves as individuals, not as members of a race, says Matt Wray, a sociologist at Temple University in Pennsylvania, who writes books about white studies.
"We are often offended if someone calls attention to our race as shaping how we view the world," says Wray, author of "Not Quite White." "We don't like to be pigeon-holed that way. Non-white Americans are seldom afforded this luxury of seeing themselves as individuals, disconnected from any race."
White only scholarship debate
Still, Wray says anxiety among whites over their place in America is nothing new. Some 19th century whites worried about slave revolts. During segregation. some worried about blacks they labeled as "uppity Negroes."
"Whites have never really felt terribly secure in their majority status," he says. "It's often said that it is lonely at the top, but it's also an anxious place to be, because you live in constant fear of falling."
'Diversity is not strength'
Some white commentators are unapologetic about this racial anxiety.
Peter Brimelow, author of "Alien Nation: Common Sense About America's Immigration Disaster," asserts that much of white America's anxiety derives from living under a black president and changing demographics.
Diversity, he says, "is not strength."
Brimelow's website, VDARE.COM, has been described as a hate site by the Southern Poverty Law Center, a group that tracks extremist groups in the U.S.
Some may see him as extreme, but Brimelow argues in his columns that more white Americans are moving toward his stance on immigration and other issues.
He cites as proof the rise of the Tea Party movement and the racial makeup of Beck's march on Washington. He says more whites recognize, even if it's only on a subliminal level, that they have common interests to defend.
"Of course, they would deny this, quite sincerely, if you put it to them because the idea of whites defending their interests as whites is quite new," he says. "Americans are trained to think that any explicit defense of white interests is 'racist.' "

Sociologist Charles Gallagher says more whites regard themselves as an embattled minority group.
James Edwards, host of the "Political Cesspool" radio show, isn't shy about naming those interests. He says white Americans have become the "dispossessed majority" and that coming demographic changes may turn the United States into a "Third-World flop-house."
Edwards, who is considered a white nationalist by the Southern Poverty Law Center, says whites must organize like other stigmatized groups.
"There is nothing wrong for Jewish organizations to promote the self-interest of Jews or black organizations to promote the interest of blacks," he says. "There is no organization to stand up to advance the interests of the dispossessed majority."
Those white interests have been compromised by what he sees as the "preferential treatment" blacks have received in the job market to compensate for slavery, Edwards says.
"Whatever mistakes might have been made in our pasts, they have not only been corrected, but they've been overcompensated for," he says.
Now whites are victims of pervasive racism, Edwards says.
"They're the victims of it every day. Anything a white conservative does that a liberal doesn't like is called racism."
Both Brimelow and Edwards reject outright the Southern Poverty Law Center's description of their organizations as extremist.
'It's not a race issue, it's a principle'
Ginger Howard is a white Southerner who doesn't feel dispossessed. She attended Beck's rally last summer and described it as a religious event, not a political one.
"It was such an amazing event to be with such like-minded people," she says.
Beck says he held the rally to reclaim the civil rights movement "from politics." He held the rally on the anniversary of the 1963 March on Washington, where the Rev. Martin Luther King Jr. delivered his "I Have Dream Speech."
Howard says she attended because she wanted to raise money for U.S. troops and protest against government dependency.
"It's not a race issue, it's a principle issue," says Howard, owner of the Ginger Howard Selections clothing store in Atlanta, Georgia.
Chris Plante, a conservative talk show host, says white racial anxiety isn't a race issue but a smokescreen by leftists. Plante says they yell racism to avoid talking about Obama's "unpopular liberal expansion" of the federal government.
Did [whites] become racist after electing the first black president?
--Mona Charen, conservative columnist
RELATED TOPICS
Tea Party Movement
Civil Rights
Plante, who says he grew up in a Chicago home with a picture of Martin Luther King Jr. on the wall, attended both Beck's rally and a follow-up rally by Jon Stewart, host of the Daily Show.
Stewart and fellow Comedy Central host Stephen Colbert held their "March to Keep Fear Alive" on the National Mall two months after Beck's rally. Stewart said he held the rally for people tired of the media portraying America as a divided country.
"The Beck crowd was no more white than the Jon Stewart rally, but nobody in the news media described the Stewart crowd as overwhelmingly white," Plante says.
'Hunkering down'
One prominent observer of American culture suggests all Americans -- white, black and every other minority -- should be concerned about the future.
Robert Putnam, author of the celebrated book, "Bowling Alone," says his studies of multiracial neighborhoods in America suggest that more diversity doesn't initially create more tolerance. It can erode community.
In his 2007 book, "E Pluribus Unum: Diversity and Community in the Twenty-first Century," Putnam says his studies of diverse communities show that in the short run, its members tend to expect the worst, distrust neighbors and withdraw.
"Residents of all races tend to 'hunker down,' '' Putnam writes. "Trust (even of one's own race) is lower, altruism and community cooperation rarer, friends fewer."
Is this America's future?
Dueling mass rallies in Washington? Dueling complaints of racial persecution? Dueling versions of ethnic history?
It doesn't have to be, says Gallagher, the La Salle University sociologist.
Gallagher points out that the United States has accommodated massive change before. Women were once thought too emotional to vote, interracial couples were outlawed, blacks enslaved.
He says his children won't see race the same way that he or other generations did. They won't see diversity as a weakness.
It'll just be a way of life.
"Like it or not, the country is going to look more like it should -- more brown folks, more yellow folks, more gay folks, more mixed folks," he says.
It's easy to be pessimistic, he says, but his profession teaches him to look past the headlines.
"When you take the long view of human history, change is slow, but change happens."
Last edited by Роберт on Fri Mar 04, 2011 5:41 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: CNN article: are whites racially oppressed? LOL

Postby Izawwlgood » Fri Mar 04, 2011 5:34 pm UTC

In regards to the scholarship, white people are poor too. That said, America is basically a scholarship for white people.
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Re: CNN article: are whites racially oppressed? LOL

Postby Роберт » Fri Mar 04, 2011 5:38 pm UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:In regards to the scholarship, white people are poor too. That said, America is basically a scholarship for white people.

There are needs based scholarships available to whites already.

Granted, it can seem unfair when another student is getting paid a bunch of money for being female and paid a bunch of money for being black, but the whole reason for that "unfairness" is to try to balance out other problems. Making a "whites only" scholarship is a little odd.
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Re: CNN article: are whites racially oppressed? :facepalm:

Postby iop » Fri Mar 04, 2011 6:05 pm UTC

U.S. Census Bureau projections that whites will become a minority by 2050 are fueling fears that whiteness no longer represents the norm.

And that is a problem how? South Africa has demonstrated for many years that whites do not need to be a majority in order to be privileged. And if "dispossessed" means having lost a few privileges, then cry me a river.

In a day and age when women are still considered to be "asking for it" when they dress "provocatively" (as exemplified by a recent court decision in Manitoba), the situation for white males can't be that bad yet.

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Re: CNN article: are whites racially oppressed? LOL

Postby aleflamedyud » Fri Mar 04, 2011 6:17 pm UTC

Роберт wrote:
Izawwlgood wrote:In regards to the scholarship, white people are poor too. That said, America is basically a scholarship for white people.

There are needs based scholarships available to whites already.

Not really, no. When I was looking for scholarships I could use as a CS major, I found that nearly 100% of them either targeted themselves explicitly at women and minorities only or outright stated that they preferred women and minorities over white males. There's already a solution to this petty bickering, and it's called race-blind, gender-blind merit scholarships. It's just not Basically Decent to give those because they "reinforce white/male privilege" (which is half stupid because more females than males receive merit awards nowadays anyway, and because we should just fix our secondary school system, blah, blah, blah).

As to "whiteness studies"... I suppose there is such a culture as American White (with a large set of regional variants that don't always get along perfectly), and if so it deserves anthropological study as much as anyone else.
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Re: CNN article: are whites racially oppressed? LOL

Postby Роберт » Fri Mar 04, 2011 6:28 pm UTC

aleflamedyud wrote:
Роберт wrote:
Izawwlgood wrote:In regards to the scholarship, white people are poor too. That said, America is basically a scholarship for white people.

There are needs based scholarships available to whites already.

Not really, no.

...so there is no chance of a poor white student getting grants and other financial aid through the fafsa and other government programs? It's all a lie?
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Re: CNN article: are whites racially oppressed? :facepalm:

Postby podbaydoor » Fri Mar 04, 2011 6:30 pm UTC

As an Asian-American, the supposed dearth of white scholarships makes me supremely disinterested about the non-problem. Guess who called her university enquiring about a minority scholarship and was told that "we don't consider Asians to be minorities"? This person! Cry me a river, seriously.
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Re: CNN article: are whites racially oppressed? :facepalm:

Postby Sporky McForkinspoon » Fri Mar 04, 2011 6:37 pm UTC

While I can see that in terms of scholarships, white males are kind of screwed, myself included, making more gender blind merit based scholarships does seem like the right way to do things. If you prove that you're smart enough to go to college, you get money... This makes sense to me. And yeah, I can even see how a whiteness studies course could be interesting to take, though, realistically, white isn't really an ethnic group with a unified history. Whites have even managed to discriminate against other whites, ask the Irish. I suppose I'd be more inclined to take a course that focused on a particular group, rather than white people as a whole. In much the same way, referring to Africa as a unified whole annoys me, there are, what, thirty seven countries? At any rate, I'm getting off topic, I think my original point was that this article basically is afraid that after many decades of minorities working for equality, they might actually get it. "Fears that whiteness will no longer be the norm" as a white male, I really don't have a problem with there no longer being a norm.

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Re: CNN article: are whites racially oppressed? :facepalm:

Postby podbaydoor » Fri Mar 04, 2011 6:41 pm UTC

Yeah. Basically the entire article was a giant exercise in "We are losing our privilege. We want it back, and all you minorities should know your proper place. But we're not racist! No, definitely not."
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Re: CNN article: are whites racially oppressed? :facepalm:

Postby Chen » Fri Mar 04, 2011 6:46 pm UTC

podbaydoor wrote:As an Asian-American, the supposed dearth of white scholarships makes me supremely disinterested about the non-problem. Guess who called her university enquiring about a minority scholarship and was told that "we don't consider Asians to be minorities"? This person! Cry me a river, seriously.


Wasn't the person basically asking for scholarships that weren't based on being part of a minority? Wouldn't something like that have HELPED you? Clearly a "Whites only" scholarship wouldn't, but one that was race/gender blind couldn't hurt...unless the money for it was taken from some other scholarships I guess.

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Re: CNN article: are whites racially oppressed? LOL

Postby aleflamedyud » Fri Mar 04, 2011 6:50 pm UTC

Роберт wrote:
aleflamedyud wrote:
Роберт wrote:
Izawwlgood wrote:In regards to the scholarship, white people are poor too. That said, America is basically a scholarship for white people.

There are needs based scholarships available to whites already.

Not really, no.

...so there is no chance of a poor white student getting grants and other financial aid through the fafsa and other government programs? It's all a lie?

I know a whole load of white males, some of whom are poor or lower-middle-class. They don't get grants/scholarships. They take out student loans.

That said, I think that the entire infrastructure of paying for higher education in the United States is profoundly fucked up in general, to the point that race plays only a tiny part in the real problem.

podbaydoor wrote:As an Asian-American, the supposed dearth of white scholarships makes me supremely disinterested about the non-problem. Guess who called her university enquiring about a minority scholarship and was told that "we don't consider Asians to be minorities"? This person! Cry me a river, seriously.

California is currently the only state in the union that recognizes my ethnic group, or even the broad ethnogeographical spectrum to which we belong, as an identity group at all. Like I said above, there are far more severe problems with the American higher-ed system than its failure to consider Jews and Asians minorities, especially since some universities really are majority Asian (adding together the East Asians, South Asians, and Middle Easterners at mine would probably give you a majority, actually).

Sporky McForkinspoon wrote:If you prove that you're smart enough to go to college, you get money... This makes sense to me.

That's basically how it ought to work, especially since most of the "minority scholarships" actually constrain your major anyway. You can get a scholarship for being Hispanic in engineering, a woman in Computer Science, or just about always an X in X Studies, but nobody gives you a real scholarship (beyond the Pell Grant) just for having a family that can't afford $20,000/year (and that's in-state at a public university).
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Re: CNN article: are whites racially oppressed? :facepalm:

Postby Роберт » Fri Mar 04, 2011 6:52 pm UTC

Sporky McForkinspoon wrote:While I can see that in terms of scholarships, white males are kind of screwed, myself included, making more gender blind merit based scholarships does seem like the right way to do things.
Sure, the less barriers there are unfairly hindering blacks or women or whatever from certain fields, the less need there is to correct the problem. Ideally, scholarships would be gender and race blind because there would be no disadvantage to be correcting.

However, as long as there is prejudice against groups that identical resumés are perceived differently based solely on the applicant's name, and similar forms of white privilege are floating about.... it's hard to feel sorry for the poor, oppressed white males who don't get affirmative action benefits or whatever.

I'm a white male with European ancestry, and by the time I applied to college my family wasn't considered "poor". I was unable to get certain scholarships because of that. I don't feel underprivileged or bitter.

Need-based scholarships vary from state to state, but there is more than just the pell grant. I didn't get any need-based scholarships even though my parents didn't pay for my tuition.
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Re: CNN article: are whites racially oppressed? :facepalm:

Postby Sporky McForkinspoon » Fri Mar 04, 2011 6:59 pm UTC

Yeah, I don't really complain about it either. My dad makes enough money he could pay for my schooling, but is kind of an ass, so doesn't give me a cent. As a result, I have very little in the way of scholarships, and not too much in the way of Pell grants. So, I work a full time job to pay for college, it isn't the most fun way of doing things, but it's what both of my parents did, and so far I don't even have any loans to pay. I'm not bitter that I don't get those scholarships, and am a big supporter of affirmative action, which my state decided to get rid of in the last election. Idiots... I think that such things are good, but possibly taken a little further than necessary.

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Re: CNN article: are whites racially oppressed? :facepalm:

Postby Jessica » Fri Mar 04, 2011 7:07 pm UTC

There are lots of scholarships for academic merit. At least in Canada. Every school I applied to as a white male offered me money for academic achievement (except the best one, which required me to complete a contest to get that scholarship). There are scholarships for junior achievement, for sports, for volunteering, for almost anything you can think of. You just have to look. Yes, there are also some based on race, and based on gender, but it's not like there aren't ways to get free money from people to go to university.

Actually I read a similar article that said that the founder of Former Majority Association for Equality was former military. Doesn't the american military give you a whack of grants and money to go to university? Like isn't that a huge draw for the military?

But clearly white people are oppressed... right?
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Re: CNN article: are whites racially oppressed? :facepalm:

Postby podbaydoor » Fri Mar 04, 2011 7:13 pm UTC

@aflame: Yes, I am aware of the reasons why most "minority" scholarships don't consider Asians as minorities for the purposes of granting them. I brought that incident up as an example for why I'm not so sympathetic when a white guy brings up his lack of scholarships to claim that he's being more oppressed than non-whites.
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Re: CNN article: are whites racially oppressed? :facepalm:

Postby Izawwlgood » Fri Mar 04, 2011 7:16 pm UTC

Hey there are slightly more Jews in America than there are Native Americans. Clearly, in applying to Brandeis, I deserve recognition for being a minority.
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Re: CNN article: are whites racially oppressed? :facepalm:

Postby Dauric » Fri Mar 04, 2011 7:17 pm UTC

Jessica wrote: Doesn't the american military give you a whack of grants and money to go to university? Like isn't that a huge draw for the military?


It does, but not as much (relative to the cost of an education) as it did when the program was introduced after WWII. It's actually become something of a "The military will help with your education...", and even recruiting adverts don't stress the college money nearly as much as they used to. I remember back in the 80's it was still a Big Deal, where nowadays it get an offhand mention.

Of course the main reason for this is that the GI Bill program only increases in size so quickly (when congress allocates the budget for it), where college cost increases have outstripped the GI Bill's funding increases (as they outstrip inflation by some obscene multiplier). When a vet of WWII could go to any university that wasn't "Ivy League" on the G.I. Bill alone, these days you'd be lucky to afford a local trade college without a raft of additional scholarships and student loans.
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Re: CNN article: are whites racially oppressed? :facepalm:

Postby Jessica » Fri Mar 04, 2011 7:28 pm UTC

Dauric wrote:
Jessica wrote: Doesn't the american military give you a whack of grants and money to go to university? Like isn't that a huge draw for the military?
It does, but not as much (relative to the cost of an education) as it did when the program was introduced after WWII. It's actually become something of a "The military will help with your education...", and even recruiting adverts don't stress the college money nearly as much as they used to. I remember back in the 80's it was still a Big Deal, where nowadays it get an offhand mention.

Of course the main reason for this is that the GI Bill program only increases in size so quickly (when congress allocates the budget for it), where college cost increases have outstripped the GI Bill's funding increases (as they outstrip inflation by some obscene multiplier). When a vet of WWII could go to any university that wasn't "Ivy League" on the G.I. Bill alone, these days you'd be lucky to afford a local trade college without a raft of additional scholarships and student loans.
Thank you for that info!
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Re: CNN article: are whites racially oppressed? :facepalm:

Postby Dark567 » Fri Mar 04, 2011 7:53 pm UTC

http://www.newgibill.org/calculator

Looking at the (Public)Univesity I attended the GI bill would end up paying for about half. Thats certainly not what it used to be, but its better than paying the full price. Also I believe they offered a fair number of veteran specific scholarships. Not sure how big they are.
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Re: CNN article: are whites racially oppressed? :facepalm:

Postby Dauric » Fri Mar 04, 2011 8:11 pm UTC

Dark567 wrote:http://www.newgibill.org/calculator

Looking at the (Public)Univesity I attended the GI bill would end up paying for about half. Thats certainly not what it used to be, but its better than paying the full price. Also I believe they offered a fair number of veteran specific scholarships. Not sure how big they are.


Specific prices aside (because that will vary from school to school and state to state, the Graphic Design school I attended has tuition costs about 3/4 that of the nearest state university) my point was that while the GI bill is still there and a useful amount for those who get it, there's a lot of people (in and outside of the U.S.) that think the GI Bill is still sending every former soldier to major state universities entirely on the Treasury's dime like the program was initially intended to do, when this has not been the case for decades.
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Re: CNN article: are whites racially oppressed? LOL

Postby *bird » Fri Mar 04, 2011 8:16 pm UTC

aleflamedyud wrote:That said, I think that the entire infrastructure of paying for higher education in the United States is profoundly fucked up in general, to the point that race plays only a tiny part in the real problem.


A lot of the problems in advancement and education racially actually have to do with what happens before university (education gaps), and after (employment/promotion). Fixing university won't help fix those and the university stuff is basically a stopgap measure in the easiest way to control.

podbaydoor wrote:As an Asian-American, the supposed dearth of white scholarships makes me supremely disinterested about the non-problem. Guess who called her university enquiring about a minority scholarship and was told that "we don't consider Asians to be minorities"? This person! Cry me a river, seriously.

California is currently the only state in the union that recognizes my ethnic group, or even the broad ethnogeographical spectrum to which we belong, as an identity group at all. Like I said above, there are far more severe problems with the American higher-ed system than its failure to consider Jews and Asians minorities, especially since some universities really are majority Asian (adding together the East Asians, South Asians, and Middle Easterners at mine would probably give you a majority, actually).[/quote]

1) The recognition of Jews in universities has historically been used as a way to exclude them and/or restrict them.
2) East Asians, Southeast Asians, South Asians and Middle Easterners can't really be added together like that since majority implies a common background or identity and that certainly isn't the case. And you can't really call them a majority in terms of power and the ability to actually make decisions.
3) The original assertion was that whites were oppressed because they didn't get scholarships for being white (podbaydoor addressed this already)

Jessica wrote:There are lots of scholarships for academic merit. At least in Canada. Every school I applied to as a white male offered me money for academic achievement (except the best one, which required me to complete a contest to get that scholarship).


Canada is kind of different in the sense that the tuition costs are way easier to pay for than American universities. Even the most expensive program at the most expensive public school runs you around $10K a year or so in tuition (it's probably increased since then, but most decent programs run for $20-30K/yr in the US). I did get one of those fancy contest scholarships, but I couldn't accept it because it required me to be in a certain program, even though it was my top pick school. Not that it mattered since my school had co-op which meant I was earning more than what my scholarship gave me every term anyway.

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Re: CNN article: are whites racially oppressed? :facepalm:

Postby Triangle_Man » Fri Mar 04, 2011 10:14 pm UTC

As a White Male, I can basically say that this is article and the story covered therein is stupid.

I mean, this sounds more like Racism/fear of the 'old order' being dismantaled than any legitmate discrimination.

And I get the impression that a lot of this is happening because White People no longer have the same advantages that society attached to their skin colour that they did in the past.
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Re: CNN article: are whites racially oppressed? :facepalm:

Postby Wodashin » Fri Mar 04, 2011 10:20 pm UTC

Asians have it harder, college wise.

Whites do get oppressed though. It's kind of obvious. Not as much, but they do. Everyone does.

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Re: CNN article: are whites racially oppressed? :facepalm:

Postby Thesh » Fri Mar 04, 2011 10:27 pm UTC

There's a few things that are going on.

People are pissed about affirmative action in which hiring is partially dictated by race (companies afraid of litigation for having too many whites are hiring a minority when a white candidate was more qualified).

People are sick of college scholarships being based on race (why not base them entirely on income and test scores/GPA?).

There is also a perception that racism by the minority is overlooked or generally ignored (e.g. it's OK for a black person to hate someone because they are white, but not for a white person to hate someone because they are black).

The first point I am not even sure is true or not, the second is generally obvious to anyone applying for college, and the third I'll admit kind of annoys me. You should be given shit for being a racist regardless of your race.
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Re: CNN article: are whites racially oppressed? :facepalm:

Postby CrazyJanitor10 » Fri Mar 04, 2011 10:34 pm UTC

Dauric wrote:
Jessica wrote: Doesn't the american military give you a whack of grants and money to go to university? Like isn't that a huge draw for the military?


It does, but not as much (relative to the cost of an education) as it did when the program was introduced after WWII. It's actually become something of a "The military will help with your education...", and even recruiting adverts don't stress the college money nearly as much as they used to. I remember back in the 80's it was still a Big Deal, where nowadays it get an offhand mention.

Of course the main reason for this is that the GI Bill program only increases in size so quickly (when congress allocates the budget for it), where college cost increases have outstripped the GI Bill's funding increases (as they outstrip inflation by some obscene multiplier). When a vet of WWII could go to any university that wasn't "Ivy League" on the G.I. Bill alone, these days you'd be lucky to afford a local trade college without a raft of additional scholarships and student loans.


I'm going to go ahead and assume you're still using the Montgomery GI Bill (which even then would allow you to go to a decent state public university). The new revamped Post 9/11 G.I. Bill to an extent brought payments back to where they should be (although rumint has it that bureaucrats are looking at axing the post 9/11 G.I. Bill as a way of cutting gov't spending)

Dauric wrote:Specific prices aside (because that will vary from school to school and state to state, the Graphic Design school I attended has tuition costs about 3/4 that of the nearest state university) my point was that while the GI bill is still there and a useful amount for those who get it, there's a lot of people (in and outside of the U.S.) that think the GI Bill is still sending every former soldier to major state universities entirely on the Treasury's dime like the program was initially intended to do, when this has not been the case for decades.


As you said it depends on the state and school. I'm looking at a full ride when I get out when I go back to Texas for my college education.


--------------------

We somehow managed to get off topic...

attempting to steer us back on topic.

Somewhat on topic and off topic at the same time: The portrayal of Racism in America is overblown, pure and simple. (I'll go ahead and come out and admit I'm a Caucasian Male(so white I'm see through, damn red hair))

For instance, I could go walking through compton, get myself killed, and most people's reaction would be, he shouldn't have been there (which is true), however, if a black man goes walking through a stereotypical southern town and get's killed, everyone will be pointing their fingers left and right at racists. Either my being killed should be a racial killing, or the black dude shouldn't have been walking through the stereotypical southern town. We can't have our cake and eat it too.

I see a majority of the racist finger pointing coming from Europeans (WHERE THE RACISM IS SOOOOO MUCH WORSE) (muslim race riots in france, turks in germany getting mistreated because they are immigrants)(and it's even worse in the middle east, immigrant workers are third class citizens over there) Americans have developed this inferiority complex because of our public history of racism, but we're not nearly as bad as we tell ourselves we are.


All this being said, and I think those in the article are probably over-reacting a tad


If we want true Racial Equality, we need to drop the race based scholarships and perks for being any race (minority or majority) We need to drop the laws setting percentages for what a certain employer should hire. Keep and expand anti-racism laws (America's pretty much on track, discriminating for employment based on Race, Creed, Nationality, Skin Color, Sexual Orientation is already outlawed (if I'm being ignorant please correct me))


I've already resigned myself to the fact that because I've stated that I'm white, this post will be construed by at least one person as a racist post, me being a closet racist. I'd prefer you attack the merits of my arguments and not reduce yourself to ad hominem attacks.


Race is a touchy subject, near and dear to all of us because of our very recent history with racism, but just remember, with each successive generation we get better. My generation is doing better than my parent's generation, which did better than their parent's (on the topic of racism and acceptance, not so much on monetary issues, but that's for another topic). Believe it or not, we are getting better as a society, regardless of what the American news networks are spouting(remember, they're playing a ratings game, so they're shooting for whatever will catch the public's eye, and not focus as much on journalistic integrity, man I wish Walter Cronkite was still around)


tl;dr - Shit's not optimal, but it's not nearly as bad as we tell ourselves it is

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Re: CNN article: are whites racially oppressed? :facepalm:

Postby Steroid » Fri Mar 04, 2011 10:36 pm UTC

The problem is that the "white privilege" view of history cuts both ways. If whites aren't being oppressed, if they don't need diversity advocates and cultural protection, if they can't avail themselves of the same methods that other racial groups can, then it's because they are the "normal" culture, and there's no true diversity. Or if there are and ought to be no racial privileges, then no privileges can be accorded to non-white races. Personally I prefer the former, because I do think the historical white culture, by which I mean post-Renaissance Europe and the US, is the leading culture of the world on the strength of its deeds and its values. But in any case, whether or not it's fair, whites will act in their own interests no less so than any other race.

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Re: CNN article: are whites racially oppressed? :facepalm:

Postby Aetius » Fri Mar 04, 2011 10:38 pm UTC

Did anyone really think the end game of identity politics would be anything but this? For decades it's been an antagonistic mindset where various programs and advocacies are pitted against white privilege in the attempt to create some kind of balance. Stability this is not. Why would anyone expect whites to give up privilege after you've created a situation where that privilege is the main bulwark they have against antagonistic opposition?

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Re: CNN article: are whites racially oppressed? :facepalm:

Postby Nordic Einar » Fri Mar 04, 2011 11:15 pm UTC

CrazyJanitor10 wrote:For instance, I could go walking through compton, get myself killed, and most people's reaction would be, he shouldn't have been there (which is true), however, if a black man goes walking through a stereotypical southern town and get's killed, everyone will be pointing their fingers left and right at racists. Either my being killed should be a racial killing, or the black dude shouldn't have been walking through the stereotypical southern town. We can't have our cake and eat it too.


Do you see anyone here advocating for that? Nevermind that, another reason walking through Compton is a bad idea is that it's a high crime, low income area, your analogy isn't one that's being pushed here. Racially motivated violence is bad no matter who it's from, and I doubt anyone on the fora would disagree.

CrazyJanitor10 wrote:I see a majority of the racist finger pointing coming from Europeans (WHERE THE RACISM IS SOOOOO MUCH WORSE) (muslim race riots in france, turks in germany getting mistreated because they are immigrants)(and it's even worse in the middle east, immigrant workers are third class citizens over there) Americans have developed this inferiority complex because of our public history of racism, but we're not nearly as bad as we tell ourselves we are.


Do you have any kind of citations to back up how "not so bad" American race relations are? Because there is a *EDIT* - Fucking Lot - Thanks Heisen! of studies that support the theory that "Brown People Are Hella Oppressed Yo!"

CrazyJanitor10 wrote:If we want true Racial Equality, we need to drop the race based scholarships and perks for being any race (minority or majority) We need to drop the laws setting percentages for what a certain employer should hire. Keep and expand anti-racism laws (America's pretty much on track, discriminating for employment based on Race, Creed, Nationality, Skin Color, Sexual Orientation is already outlawed (if I'm being ignorant please correct me))


You're being ignorant. Legally mandated "Quotas" do not exist, anywhere. In fact, they're outright illegal - the Government cannot mandate any sort of "quota". That is a common misconception of affirmative action - if a company decides to put into place such a quota, it is on their own choosing and has fuck all to do with any civil rights legislation. Further, Sexual Orientation is abso-fucking-lutely not protected by the vast majority of civil rights legislation - it is perfectly legal to discriminate against the LGBT Community both in employment and housing in almost every state. There is no federal protections therein. Further, racial based scholarships are often the only reason many individuals from low income, primarily ethnic ghettos are able to go to school at all. The privilege you and I experience as white men in our society is, bluntly, the best Affirmative Action program in the world. We benefit far more from our Whiteness than any perceived racial benefit gained by minorities.

Oh, and fun fact? White Women benefit more from Affirmative Action than any other 'minority' group.

CrazyJanitor10 wrote:I've already resigned myself to the fact that because I've stated that I'm white, this post will be construed by at least one person as a racist post, me being a closet racist. I'd prefer you attack the merits of my arguments and not reduce yourself to ad hominem attacks.


Cute sense of persecution, bro! Also, you're a dickweasleracistfuck, etc etc. Seriously, chill - at most people here will take that you're incredibly privileged and blinded by that privilege; there's a difference between KKK Racists and Privileged White Guy. Hang around a while and you'll learn that difference.

CrazyJanitor10 wrote:tl;dr - Shit's not optimal, but it's not nearly as bad as we tell ourselves it is


As a gay man, shit is worse for me than most people think it is, as demonstrated above. "But it's getting better!" doesn't mean shit if we're getting better glacially, and it's certainly no comfort for individuals like myself who may never see full equality in our life time. I'm glad a snails pace is good enough for you - it's nowhere near good enough for me.
Last edited by Nordic Einar on Mon Mar 07, 2011 9:41 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: CNN article: are whites racially oppressed? :facepalm:

Postby Wodashin » Fri Mar 04, 2011 11:18 pm UTC

I seriously do not understand this white privilege stuff. I hate living where I do, because I cannot relate whatsoever. I feel left out.

I dislike how Asians are discriminated against though with this affirmative action crap. I've never personally been victimized over race or color or anything, but this is one way I have. It makes no sense.

Does anyone know how it would affect me if I put in 'Multiethnic' as my race instead of Asian or White? It couldn't possibly hurt me in any way since Asians have it hardest already, but would it put me on par with blacks and latinos? Or at least make it easier than if I checked white? I've tried finding an answer online, but have not come across an answer.

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Re: CNN article: are whites racially oppressed? :facepalm:

Postby Glass Fractal » Fri Mar 04, 2011 11:37 pm UTC

Wodashin wrote:I seriously do not understand this white privilege stuff. I hate living where I do, because I cannot relate whatsoever. I feel left out.


And later in the hour we'll meet a fish that doesn't realize it's swimming in water.

Generally it's not special deference to you, it's lack of special discrimination against you.

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Re: CNN article: are whites racially oppressed? :facepalm:

Postby ++$_ » Fri Mar 04, 2011 11:43 pm UTC

CrazyJanitor10 wrote:For instance, I could go walking through compton, get myself killed, and most people's reaction would be, he shouldn't have been there (which is true), however, if a black man goes walking through a stereotypical southern town and get's killed, everyone will be pointing their fingers left and right at racists. Either my being killed should be a racial killing, or the black dude shouldn't have been walking through the stereotypical southern town. We can't have our cake and eat it too.
Think about what you're saying here, please.

In Stereotypical Southern Town, let's suppose that a black man is more likely to be killed than a white man.

The same thing is true in Compton. (Maybe you weren't aware of this?)

You seem to be complaining that if you (as a white person) go to a town that is safer for white people than it is for black people, and you get killed, it should be considered a racial killing. That makes no sense.

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Re: CNN article: are whites racially oppressed? :facepalm:

Postby aleflamedyud » Fri Mar 04, 2011 11:51 pm UTC

2) East Asians, Southeast Asians, South Asians and Middle Easterners can't really be added together like that since majority implies a common background or identity and that certainly isn't the case.

My actual point was that universities, left alone to work without any kind of affirmative action for anyone whatsoever, still manage to have a different demographic balance from the general population -- one that consists of more "minority" groups than "majority" groups. This becomes notable because the demographics of the educated middle and upper classes generally trail the demographics of universities, so it actually looks as though we're moving towards a society in which Euro-Americans become merely one "minority" among a class of people with no single racial majority. THIS IS A GOOD THING, except if it occurs because somehow white people have skewed into classes that disadvantage them, such as being rural-dwellers. I stand with everyone here in not considering whites an oppressed racial group. However, when white people need help, they need help, regardless of whether anyone else needs it more. I don't see why we have to go through all these stupid racial balancing arguments as though social democracy were zero-sum and we can't just help everyone who genuinely needs and deserves it.

So while we obviously shouldn't have scholarships for white people, it is worth considering, for example, whether we should (provided we agree to use university-level scholarships to alleviate problems that originate in the ailing elementary and secondary education systems) establish a scholarship for residents of rural areas. Rural areas tend to skew lower-middle to poor in class terms and skew very, very white in racial terms. It's also worth noting that the political bloc representing "whiteness" overwhelmingly represents rural whites, who have very real problems comparable to those faced by other ethnoracial groups.
Last edited by aleflamedyud on Sat Mar 05, 2011 12:00 am UTC, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: CNN article: are whites racially oppressed? :facepalm:

Postby CrazyJanitor10 » Fri Mar 04, 2011 11:57 pm UTC

Nordic Einar wrote:Do you see anyone here advocating for that? Nevermind that, another reason walking through Compton is a bad idea is that it's a high crime, low income area, your analogy isn't one that's being pushed here. Racially motivated violence is bad no matter who it's from, and I doubt anyone on the fora would disagree.


making a point for a point's sake, maybe not the best of analogies, but

Nordic Einar wrote:"Racially motivated violence is bad no matter who it's from"


the point was mde

Nordic Einar wrote:Do you have any kind of citations to back up how "not so bad" American race relations are? Because there is a dirth of studies that support the theory that "Brown People Are Hella Oppressed Yo!"


personal testimony from germans, watching the race riots, and first hand experience in the middle east (I wasn't a third class citizen, but I saw the immigrants getting treated like dogs)

Nordic Einar wrote:You're being ignorant. Legally mandated "Quotas" do not exist, anywhere. In fact, they're outright illegal - the Government cannot mandate any sort of "quota". That is a common misconception of affirmative action - if a company decides to put into place such a quota, it is on their own choosing and has fuck all to do with any civil rights legislation. Further, Sexual Orientation is abso-fucking-lutely not protected by the vast majority of civil rights legislation - it is perfectly legal to discriminate against the LGBT Community both in employment and housing in almost every state. There is no federal protections therein. Further, racial based scholarships are often the only reason many individuals from low income, primarily ethnic ghettos are able to go to school at all. The privilege you and I experience as white men in our society is, bluntly, the best Affirmative Action program in the world. We benefit far more from our Whiteness than any perceived racial benefit gained by minorities.

Oh, and fun fact? White Women benefit more from Affirmative Action than any other 'minority' group.


I had a brain fart and forgot what affirmative action was called, and a slight misconstruance of what it does. I'm open to learning regardless of the forum, so educate me on affirmative action, unless the wiki article is correct, in which affirmative action has been abused by multiple parties. If you don't feel like publicly educating me, my pm box is wide open, feel free to hit me up there.

and you'll have to forgive me on the sexual orientation thing, I'm a marine, and "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" repeal training is really starting to mess with my conception of the legal protections afforded to sexual orientation. I work in a gov't facility that has posted on every. single. wall. a poster espousing that if anyone feels harassed because of their sexual orientation they have 45 days to bring it up to the local EO rep. so please excuse my ignorance, and tell me how it really is.

you asked me for studies, my turn

Nordic Einar wrote:Cute sense of persecution, bro! Also, you're a dickweasleracistfuck, etc etc. Seriously, chill - at most people here will take that you're incredibly privileged and blinded by that privilege; there's a difference between KKK Racists and Privileged White Guy. Hang around a while and you'll learn that difference.


As much as I wish I was privileged, quite the opposite, but I'm willing to learn. And one thing I've learned since leaving the comfort of home, it's pretty damn easy to be construed as a racist for even the most inane of comments.


Nordic Einar wrote:As a gay man, shit is worse for me than most people think it is, as demonstrated above. "But it's getting better!" doesn't mean shit if we're getting better glacially, and it's certainly no comfort for individuals like myself who may never see full equality in our life time. I'm glad a snails pace is good enough for you - it's nowhere near good enough for me.


DADT repeal, one hurdle out of the way.

I'll give you that progress is slow, but I won't give you glacial. 1865 - end of the civil war, 1964 - civil rights act, and shit still hasn't completely settled, but an african american is still better off than his predecessor 146 years ago. the LBGT community didn't really start coming forward until, I'll be generous (if I'm being ignorant, again, correct me), roughly the end of WW2, so by my count, if you wanted glacial, you have until at least 2091 before you can expect to be where African American's are today.

Judging by current shifts in the nat'l consciousness regarding acceptance, it's going to be a lot sooner.

Wodashin wrote:Does anyone know how it would affect me if I put in 'Multiethnic' as my race instead of Asian or White? It couldn't possibly hurt me in any way since Asians have it hardest already, but would it put me on par with blacks and latinos? Or at least make it easier than if I checked white? I've tried finding an answer online, but have not come across an answer.


honestly, it depends on the college

edit:

++$_ wrote:The same thing is true in Compton. (Maybe you weren't aware of this?)


I was not

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Re: CNN article: are whites racially oppressed? :facepalm:

Postby Diadem » Sat Mar 05, 2011 12:12 am UTC

I never really understood your system of grants anyway. It sounds like a ridiculously complicated system with a bazillion spent on overhead, that forces students to do more scholarship-hunting than actual studying.

Here in the Netherlands universities are mostly paid for by the state. Students pay a small tuition fee (well, €1500 a year. Still a rather significant part of your total money as a student. But small compared to the actual cost of education) each year, which is set by the state and the same for every university and every study. Every student also gets a scholarship from the state. Not enough to get by, but it's a start. You get more if you parents' income is low, and in addition to this you can borrow extra money from the state at a reduced rate, and under very good terms. You only start paying back money after you've graduated, and no matter how much you borrowed there is a cap on how much you have to pay back per month based on salary, so it'll never bankrupt you. It's tight, but with maximum loan you can get by as a student even without any sort of additional income or parental support. It doesn't matter what race you are from, your sex doesn't matter, your religion doesn't matter. It doesn't matter what your grades are. Everybody can afford to go to university. It's wise to graduate, because otherwise you end up with a lot of dept and no diploma to show for it, but even then because how much you have to pay back depends on income, it won't backrupt you or anything.

Mind you, government has been cutting into these programs like a madman with a chainsaw for a few decades now. Things used to be much better, and we are in danger of becoming much worse. But I still vastly prefer our system over the American one.

Of course, it's socialism. Scary shit.
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Re: CNN article: are whites racially oppressed? :facepalm:

Postby The Great Hippo » Sat Mar 05, 2011 12:19 am UTC

Clearly, Netherlands is a fascist, socialist wasteland; a smoldering crater where cast rejects for Mad Max roam in wild packs, driving their eco-friendly cars powered by the blood of dead fetuses.

Fetuses killed by GOVERNMENT-SPONSORED ABORTIONS.

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Re: CNN article: are whites racially oppressed? :facepalm:

Postby CrazyJanitor10 » Sat Mar 05, 2011 12:29 am UTC

Diadem wrote:I never really understood your system of grants anyway. It sounds like a ridiculously complicated system with a bazillion spent on overhead, that forces students to do more scholarship-hunting than actual studying.

Here in the Netherlands universities are mostly paid for by the state. Students pay a small tuition fee (well, €1500 a year. Still a rather significant part of your total money as a student. But small compared to the actual cost of education) each year, which is set by the state and the same for every university and every study. Every student also gets a scholarship from the state. Not enough to get by, but it's a start. You get more if you parents' income is low, and in addition to this you can borrow extra money from the state at a reduced rate, and under very good terms. You only start paying back money after you've graduated, and no matter how much you borrowed there is a cap on how much you have to pay back per month based on salary, so it'll never bankrupt you. It's tight, but with maximum loan you can get by as a student even without any sort of additional income or parental support. It doesn't matter what race you are from, your sex doesn't matter, your religion doesn't matter. It doesn't matter what your grades are. Everybody can afford to go to university. It's wise to graduate, because otherwise you end up with a lot of dept and no diploma to show for it, but even then because how much you have to pay back depends on income, it won't backrupt you or anything.

Mind you, government has been cutting into these programs like a madman with a chainsaw for a few decades now. Things used to be much better, and we are in danger of becoming much worse. But I still vastly prefer our system over the American one.

Of course, it's socialism. Scary shit.



I envy most socialist countries, if but only for this reason. I would be looking at roughly $15k (roughly €11k) a year for tuition if not for the government paying for my college because I did military service.

That being said, currently America is for all intents and purposes, bankrupt, we are trillions of dollars in debt and spending more every year, we can't afford to have the government subsidize college education like European countries are able to. (this really has nothing to do with the OP, so I'll stop there)

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Re: CNN article: are whites racially oppressed? :facepalm:

Postby Diadem » Sat Mar 05, 2011 12:37 am UTC

The Great Hippo wrote:Clearly, Netherlands is a fascist, socialist wasteland; a smoldering crater where cast rejects for Mad Max roam in wild packs, driving their eco-friendly cars powered by the blood of dead fetuses.

Nah. We were gonna do that. But then we got high.
It's one of those irregular verbs, isn't it? I have an independent mind, you are an eccentric, he is round the twist
- Bernard Woolley in Yes, Prime Minister

engr
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Re: CNN article: are whites racially oppressed? :facepalm:

Postby engr » Sat Mar 05, 2011 12:55 am UTC

Nordic Einar wrote:You're being ignorant. Legally mandated "Quotas" do not exist, anywhere. In fact, they're outright illegal - the Government cannot mandate any sort of "quota".

It is illegal but it apparently local governments love to do it. I wonder how many cases did not go to court and how many cities still do this stuff.
Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions. Gilbert K. Chesterton

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The Great Hippo
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Re: CNN article: are whites racially oppressed? :facepalm:

Postby The Great Hippo » Sat Mar 05, 2011 1:16 am UTC

Diadem wrote:
The Great Hippo wrote:Clearly, Netherlands is a fascist, socialist wasteland; a smoldering crater where cast rejects for Mad Max roam in wild packs, driving their eco-friendly cars powered by the blood of dead fetuses.

Nah. We were gonna do that. But then we got high.
Then I guess you won't need these plans for my mobile death-fortress, the ABORTINARIUM.

...you dirty hippies.

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Re: CNN article: are whites racially oppressed? :facepalm:

Postby Inny Binny » Sat Mar 05, 2011 4:52 am UTC

I just don't see how anyone can claim Group B is equally oppressed to Group A simply because Group A is receiving a 5-point bonus to their 50 points when Group B has 100 points.

And I don't think affirmative action is very good at all. If Group A has an 80% share of the neediness market they'll get a boatload of help based on merit anyway. It often leaves for dead needy people in the majority and in minorities not thought of.

But suggesting that affirmative action is even remotely as discriminatory as that which minorities can face is ridiculous.


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