Wave of anti-abortion bills advance in the states

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Re: Wave of anti-abortion bills advance in the states

Postby Diadem » Fri Apr 18, 2014 1:55 pm UTC

jareds wrote:
CorruptUser wrote:Hooray, but how long will the judge keep his job? "Activist judge" and all.

Until impeachment and conviction in the US Senate, voluntary resignation or retirement, or death.

Having such a verdict under his name probably means that he won't be getting any promotions under a republican white house, though.
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Re: Wave of anti-abortion bills advance in the states

Postby Cleverbeans » Tue Apr 22, 2014 2:27 am UTC

How do I get my hands on a gender distribution for those who voted on these laws?
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Re: Wave of anti-abortion bills advance in the states

Postby Ormurinn » Wed Apr 23, 2014 12:50 pm UTC

Cleverbeans wrote:How do I get my hands on a gender distribution for those who voted on these laws?


Does the U.S not have secret ballots?
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Re: Wave of anti-abortion bills advance in the states

Postby CorruptUser » Wed Apr 23, 2014 1:23 pm UTC

We have exit polls.

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Re: Wave of anti-abortion bills advance in the states

Postby Xeio » Wed Oct 15, 2014 8:19 pm UTC

So SCOTUS just re-enjoined portions of the Texas law closing most of the clinics in the state. (After the 5th circuit would allow them to go into effect)

They're not actually going to be hearing the case as of yet though since we're still waiting on the 5th circuit court to rule.

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Re: Wave of anti-abortion bills advance in the states

Postby CorruptUser » Wed Oct 15, 2014 8:35 pm UTC

I really want to hate Obama's administration. I really do. The economy is in the shitter, the world is on fire, and Firefly is still cancelled. But I just look at the other guys, and I see the enormity of their actions. Suddenly Obama seems OK in comparison.

I'm a bit of a cynical paranoid conspiracy theorist. It had been my belief that the real reason the Republicans opposed abortion was because of poverty; poor states take in more from Medicaid than they pay back, abortion increases the number of people on Medicaid, poor Republican states get extra funding at the expense of the richer Democrat states. But then I read Cracked's 'things I learned being a child laborer (in the US)'. And it added another dimension to this. One of the things I learned from that is that the farmers require all kids to work on the farms. That is, your mom is a farm laborer and can't afford daycare, well you can't stay in the overpriced hovel (that's taken out of her minimum wages), or your mom won't get 'invited back' next year. And these same farmers turn around and scream about abortion being amoral. Of course they will; if the farm laborers get abortions, there are far fewer child laborers in the fields! If the women get abortions, they could also get educations and get off the farms. And if there is a shortage of farm labor, the farmers might have to pay higher wages -GASP-! So they want a large permanent underclass of people to pick the food...

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Re: Wave of anti-abortion bills advance in the states

Postby Derek » Wed Oct 15, 2014 9:34 pm UTC

I think you'll find that conspiracy theories are quite unnecessary. It's much simpler: Devout Christians oppose abortion (although they're not the only ones), and form a large portion of the Republican base.

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Re: Wave of anti-abortion bills advance in the states

Postby Vahir » Wed Oct 15, 2014 10:06 pm UTC

Or perhaps they believe that abortion is wrong for ethical concerns besides religion.

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Re: Wave of anti-abortion bills advance in the states

Postby sardia » Wed Oct 15, 2014 11:49 pm UTC

Vahir wrote:Or perhaps they believe that abortion is wrong for ethical concerns besides religion.

You mean like their elders taught them it was wrong? Cuz they said so?

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Re: Wave of anti-abortion bills advance in the states

Postby Derek » Thu Oct 16, 2014 12:06 am UTC

Vahir wrote:Or perhaps they believe that abortion is wrong for ethical concerns besides religion.

Yes, hence my parenthetical. However I think the Christian demographic alone is enough to explain the stance of the Republican Party.

You mean like their elders taught them it was wrong? Cuz they said so?

I hope that you can imagine reasons other than that some people might oppose abortion, even if you don't agree with them.

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Re: Wave of anti-abortion bills advance in the states

Postby sardia » Thu Oct 16, 2014 3:21 am UTC

Derek wrote:
Vahir wrote:Or perhaps they believe that abortion is wrong for ethical concerns besides religion.

Yes, hence my parenthetical. However I think the Christian demographic alone is enough to explain the stance of the Republican Party.

You mean like their elders taught them it was wrong? Cuz they said so?

I hope that you can imagine reasons other than that some people might oppose abortion, even if you don't agree with them.

How many of those reasons don't fall under "because someone else said so"?

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Re: Wave of anti-abortion bills advance in the states

Postby Derek » Thu Oct 16, 2014 3:35 am UTC

sardia wrote:How many of those reasons don't fall under "because someone else said so"?

How about "Some people consider fetuses to be human life and value any human life over the risks of an unwanted pregnancy"? I'm not saying you have to agree with it, but can you really not even imagine this argument?

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Re: Wave of anti-abortion bills advance in the states

Postby CorruptUser » Thu Oct 16, 2014 4:02 am UTC

Derek wrote:
sardia wrote:How many of those reasons don't fall under "because someone else said so"?

How about "Some people consider fetuses to be human life and value any human life over the risks of an unwanted pregnancy"? I'm not saying you have to agree with it, but can you really not even imagine this argument?


If those people made up a significant chunk of the anti-abortion crowd, you'd see a lot more atheists opposing abortion.

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Re: Wave of anti-abortion bills advance in the states

Postby Derek » Thu Oct 16, 2014 4:15 am UTC

CorruptUser wrote:If those people made up a significant chunk of the anti-abortion crowd, you'd see a lot more atheists opposing abortion.

I never said they were a significant chunk, I said they exist. And atheists opposing abortion do exist, for reasons like this.

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Re: Wave of anti-abortion bills advance in the states

Postby sardia » Thu Oct 16, 2014 4:19 am UTC

Derek wrote:How about "Some people consider fetuses to be human life and value any human life over the risks of an unwanted pregnancy"? I'm not saying you have to agree with it, but can you really not even imagine this argument?

I can imagine a bunch of people telling a person(like say when he was young and impressionable), and then that person would parrot those lines back out to the public as his own opinion. It's much more relevant how anti-abortion came about, or when someone was told the prevailing opinion but came to a different conclusion.
Anyway, I said the mostly true statement that people are taught by their society/elders/etc etc. to be pro life. The statement remains true when you replace it with pro abortion. In short, I was gonna be right regardless of what example you provided save for a rare few. That's the nice thing about vague semi-philosophical statements.

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Re: Wave of anti-abortion bills advance in the states

Postby mobiusstripsearch » Thu Oct 16, 2014 4:33 am UTC

sardia wrote:It's much more relevant how anti-abortion came about, or when someone was told the prevailing opinion but came to a different conclusion.


Isn't it the opposite? Anti-abortion became a movement only after Roe v Wade. Pro-Abortion activists are generally against the historical tide.
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Re: Wave of anti-abortion bills advance in the states

Postby CorruptUser » Thu Oct 16, 2014 4:44 am UTC

mobiusstripsearch wrote:
sardia wrote:It's much more relevant how anti-abortion came about, or when someone was told the prevailing opinion but came to a different conclusion.


Isn't it the opposite? Anti-abortion became a movement only after Roe v Wade. Pro-Abortion activists are generally against the historical tide.


Abortion dates back thousands of years, though it was usually herbal (and MUCH more dangerous than today). And that's not getting in to the infanticide the was present in virtually every culture at some point or another. Be very thankful you live in a society that has things like stable food supplies and birth control.

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Re: Wave of anti-abortion bills advance in the states

Postby zmic » Thu Oct 16, 2014 7:57 am UTC

CorruptUser wrote:Abortion dates back thousands of years, though it was usually herbal (and MUCH more dangerous than today). And that's not getting in to the infanticide the was present in virtually every culture at some point or another. Be very thankful you live in a society that has things like stable food supplies and birth control.


I hate to break the news to you, but abortion is really on its way out, as humanity is slowly but surely progressing towards more mature attitudes on sexuality, especially the insight the pleasing your private parts cannot take precedence over the termination of human life. You can rage and rant all that you want, but that is simply how it is going to be. I estimate it will take two more generations.

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Re: Wave of anti-abortion bills advance in the states

Postby Diadem » Thu Oct 16, 2014 11:44 am UTC

zmic wrote:
CorruptUser wrote:Abortion dates back thousands of years, though it was usually herbal (and MUCH more dangerous than today). And that's not getting in to the infanticide the was present in virtually every culture at some point or another. Be very thankful you live in a society that has things like stable food supplies and birth control.


I hate to break the news to you, but abortion is really on its way out, as humanity is slowly but surely progressing towards more mature attitudes on sexuality, especially the insight the pleasing your private parts cannot take precedence over the termination of human life. You can rage and rant all that you want, but that is simply how it is going to be. I estimate it will take two more generations.

Wow. That's a staggering amount of reality denial right there.
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Re: Wave of anti-abortion bills advance in the states

Postby Mambrino » Thu Oct 16, 2014 1:16 pm UTC

zmic wrote:
CorruptUser wrote:Abortion dates back thousands of years, though it was usually herbal (and MUCH more dangerous than today). And that's not getting in to the infanticide the was present in virtually every culture at some point or another. Be very thankful you live in a society that has things like stable food supplies and birth control.


I hate to break the news to you, but abortion is really on its way out, as humanity is slowly but surely progressing towards more mature attitudes on sexuality, especially the insight the pleasing your private parts cannot take precedence over the termination of human life. You can rage and rant all that you want, but that is simply how it is going to be. I estimate it will take two more generations.


Have you got, like, anything to back that argument? Or perhaps you mean by "maturity" things like the wide availability of the pill (and other means of birth control), in addition to educating general populace about how humans precisely reproduce (and how they can please their private parts safely without risk of unwanted consequences)?

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Re: Wave of anti-abortion bills advance in the states

Postby Vahir » Thu Oct 16, 2014 2:02 pm UTC

sardia wrote:
Derek wrote:How about "Some people consider fetuses to be human life and value any human life over the risks of an unwanted pregnancy"? I'm not saying you have to agree with it, but can you really not even imagine this argument?

I can imagine a bunch of people telling a person(like say when he was young and impressionable), and then that person would parrot those lines back out to the public as his own opinion. It's much more relevant how anti-abortion came about, or when someone was told the prevailing opinion but came to a different conclusion.
Anyway, I said the mostly true statement that people are taught by their society/elders/etc etc. to be pro life. The statement remains true when you replace it with pro abortion. In short, I was gonna be right regardless of what example you provided save for a rare few. That's the nice thing about vague semi-philosophical statements.


Would you say it's morally acceptable to smother one's baby because you don't make enough money to afford them a good childhood? Probably not, but then why is abortion in the fetal stage alright? You don't have to be a religious nut or a hardcore traditionalist to decide that it's the same thing in either case, the murder of a child because it's inconvenient. Even the religious people I know that are against abortion tend to base their arguments around this.

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Re: Wave of anti-abortion bills advance in the states

Postby Chen » Thu Oct 16, 2014 2:14 pm UTC

Vahir wrote:Would you say it's morally acceptable to smother one's baby because you don't make enough money to afford them a good childhood? Probably not, but then why is abortion in the fetal stage alright? You don't have to be a religious nut or a hardcore traditionalist to decide that it's the same thing in either case, the murder of a child because it's inconvenient. Even the religious people I know that are against abortion tend to base their arguments around this.


The argument against is generally either the fetus is not yet a person or that the woman's bodily autonomy trumps the right of the potential human to potentially live. I can't think of any other real argument that is made in favor of abortion.

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Re: Wave of anti-abortion bills advance in the states

Postby Tyndmyr » Thu Oct 16, 2014 2:41 pm UTC

Mambrino wrote:
zmic wrote:
CorruptUser wrote:Abortion dates back thousands of years, though it was usually herbal (and MUCH more dangerous than today). And that's not getting in to the infanticide the was present in virtually every culture at some point or another. Be very thankful you live in a society that has things like stable food supplies and birth control.


I hate to break the news to you, but abortion is really on its way out, as humanity is slowly but surely progressing towards more mature attitudes on sexuality, especially the insight the pleasing your private parts cannot take precedence over the termination of human life. You can rage and rant all that you want, but that is simply how it is going to be. I estimate it will take two more generations.


Have you got, like, anything to back that argument? Or perhaps you mean by "maturity" things like the wide availability of the pill (and other means of birth control), in addition to educating general populace about how humans precisely reproduce (and how they can please their private parts safely without risk of unwanted consequences)?


It's not really a bad argument. We don't want abortion for itself...very few people actually LIKE the concept. They just happen to like the idea of people having a degree of choice. If that choice is exercised up front, via birth control or as a result of education or what have you, cheers. Ideally, abortion DOES die out...not because it's banned, but because people gradually move away from it as something that is no longer needed.

Attitudes are maturing somewhat. The topic is less taboo than it used to be, for instance. This is definitely important for education, etc.

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Re: Wave of anti-abortion bills advance in the states

Postby sardia » Thu Oct 16, 2014 2:58 pm UTC

Vahir, are you asking my reasoning for abortion when I claimed people are taught their stance on abortion? Just want to be clear before we dive headfirst into philosophy of abortion.

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Re: Wave of anti-abortion bills advance in the states

Postby Mambrino » Thu Oct 16, 2014 7:40 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:
Mambrino wrote:
zmic wrote:
CorruptUser wrote:Abortion dates back thousands of years, though it was usually herbal (and MUCH more dangerous than today). And that's not getting in to the infanticide the was present in virtually every culture at some point or another. Be very thankful you live in a society that has things like stable food supplies and birth control.


I hate to break the news to you, but abortion is really on its way out, as humanity is slowly but surely progressing towards more mature attitudes on sexuality, especially the insight the pleasing your private parts cannot take precedence over the termination of human life. You can rage and rant all that you want, but that is simply how it is going to be. I estimate it will take two more generations.


Have you got, like, anything to back that argument? Or perhaps you mean by "maturity" things like the wide availability of the pill (and other means of birth control), in addition to educating general populace about how humans precisely reproduce (and how they can please their private parts safely without risk of unwanted consequences)?


It's not really a bad argument. We don't want abortion for itself...very few people actually LIKE the concept. They just happen to like the idea of people having a degree of choice. If that choice is exercised up front, via birth control or as a result of education or what have you, cheers. Ideally, abortion DOES die out...not because it's banned, but because people gradually move away from it as something that is no longer needed.

Attitudes are maturing somewhat. The topic is less taboo than it used to be, for instance. This is definitely important for education, etc.


Well, while I don't disagree much with that, something being the ideal state of matters isn't exactly an assurance that absolutely certainly, in a few generations' time, all of humanity will simply cease to do abortions out of sheer maturity, end of argument, "rage or rant all that you want".

E. I mean, as CorruptUser et al. have said, there are reasons why abortion, infanticide and others have been a thing during the course of human history. There are many problems with the society to be fixed before abortion will simply die out as something not needed anymore.
Last edited by Mambrino on Thu Oct 16, 2014 7:52 pm UTC, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Wave of anti-abortion bills advance in the states

Postby Tyndmyr » Thu Oct 16, 2014 7:47 pm UTC

The two generations was an estimate, not a guarantee...don't think anyone can give you a guarantee. I think two generations might be a bit optimistic myself, but then...we've come a long way on some things in two generations.

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Re: Wave of anti-abortion bills advance in the states

Postby Vahir » Thu Oct 16, 2014 10:04 pm UTC

sardia wrote:Vahir, are you asking my reasoning for abortion when I claimed people are taught their stance on abortion? Just want to be clear before we dive headfirst into philosophy of abortion.


Perhaps I misunderstood, but you seemed to imply that the only reason one might have to oppose abortion is due to traditionalism. I disagree with that completely.

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Re: Wave of anti-abortion bills advance in the states

Postby mobiusstripsearch » Fri Oct 17, 2014 3:34 am UTC

CorruptUser wrote:
mobiusstripsearch wrote:
sardia wrote:It's much more relevant how anti-abortion came about, or when someone was told the prevailing opinion but came to a different conclusion.


Isn't it the opposite? Anti-abortion became a movement only after Roe v Wade. Pro-Abortion activists are generally against the historical tide.


Abortion dates back thousands of years, though it was usually herbal (and MUCH more dangerous than today). And that's not getting in to the infanticide the was present in virtually every culture at some point or another. Be very thankful you live in a society that has things like stable food supplies and birth control.


I replaced abortion with "sieges" and "pillaging" and had a private moment of enjoyment.

Widespread abortion in the US is not old; this is more relevant to my point than abortion practices older than America.
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Re: Wave of anti-abortion bills advance in the states

Postby CorruptUser » Fri Oct 17, 2014 12:29 pm UTC

mobiusstripsearch wrote:I replaced abortion with "sieges" and "pillaging" and had a private moment of enjoyment.

Widespread abortion in the US is not old; this is more relevant to my point than abortion practices older than America.


Infanticide is. Often it was done as a religious ceremony. Because if you are the High Priest, and you have too many people to feed, you have to kill someone. The empirical evidence shows that people would rather murder their own children than give up sex.

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Re: Wave of anti-abortion bills advance in the states

Postby sardia » Fri Oct 17, 2014 1:26 pm UTC

That's cuz sex is fun and a powerful motivator. That's why religious institutions crack down on it by branding overt sex taboo. Churches didn't want competition. Children are awful and a drain on resources.

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Re: Wave of anti-abortion bills advance in the states

Postby CorruptUser » Fri Oct 17, 2014 1:39 pm UTC

That's when the religion dominates the region. When the religion is at a frontier, the goal is to outbreed the heathens and send your sons off to kill nonbelievers and rape their women (reducing competition for your women), until everyone answers to the High Priest the divine spirits. Then when everyone is the same sect of the same religion and there are no minorities heathens left, there is no choice but to resume child sacrifices.

Unless you have birth control.

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Re: Wave of anti-abortion bills advance in the states

Postby mobiusstripsearch » Mon Oct 20, 2014 4:17 am UTC

CorruptUser wrote:
mobiusstripsearch wrote:I replaced abortion with "sieges" and "pillaging" and had a private moment of enjoyment.

Widespread abortion in the US is not old; this is more relevant to my point than abortion practices older than America.


Infanticide is. Often it was done as a religious ceremony. Because if you are the High Priest, and you have too many people to feed, you have to kill someone. The empirical evidence shows that people would rather murder their own children than give up sex.


This is not a compelling advertisement for abortion.

Maybe write a jingle?

sardia wrote:That's cuz sex is fun and a powerful motivator. That's why religious institutions crack down on it by branding overt sex taboo. Churches didn't want competition. Children are awful and a drain on resources.


?
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Re: Wave of anti-abortion bills advance in the states

Postby CorruptUser » Mon Oct 20, 2014 12:37 pm UTC

The implication is that if we have too many people, someone will die. Given that humans historically have murdered their own children rather than give up sex, the best possible option we have is to have widespread sex education, contraception, and abortion. In other words, if they have their way, "pro-lifers" will turn Earth back into the living hell that it was before widespread contraception/abortion.

It's like dealing with anti-vaxxers; you have been so far removed from the real problems of life that it's possible to make up problems.

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Re: Wave of anti-abortion bills advance in the states

Postby morriswalters » Mon Oct 20, 2014 4:47 pm UTC

People have been managing to die since, well, forever. Like, everybody who was ever born. It is simply a matter of when. And too many is a subjective measure. We may have been too many since around 1900. But abortion isn't going anywhere.

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Re: Wave of anti-abortion bills advance in the states

Postby CorruptUser » Mon Oct 20, 2014 5:46 pm UTC

You are being obtuse. "Too many" is when lifespans go down with addition of more people. People have natural lifespans, but if there is more people than food (and other supplies), someone starves to death. Sure we are better at this 'food' thing than we were centuries ago, but we simply couldn't survive if everyone had 10 kids.

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Re: Wave of anti-abortion bills advance in the states

Postby Derek » Mon Oct 20, 2014 8:15 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:The implication is that if we have too many people, someone will die. Given that humans historically have murdered their own children rather than give up sex, the best possible option we have is to have widespread sex education, contraception, and abortion. In other words, if they have their way, "pro-lifers" will turn Earth back into the living hell that it was before widespread contraception/abortion.

It's like dealing with anti-vaxxers; you have been so far removed from the real problems of life that it's possible to make up problems.

You seriously think that without abortions populations would grow unsustainably?

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Re: Wave of anti-abortion bills advance in the states

Postby zmic » Mon Oct 20, 2014 8:26 pm UTC

sardia wrote:That's cuz sex is fun and a powerful motivator. That's why religious institutions crack down on it by branding overt sex taboo. Churches didn't want competition. Children are awful and a drain on resources.


The reason why religions are iffy about sex is that it is understood that real happiness cannot be found by the pursuit of worldly pleasures.

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Re: Wave of anti-abortion bills advance in the states

Postby Tyndmyr » Mon Oct 20, 2014 8:44 pm UTC

zmic wrote:
sardia wrote:That's cuz sex is fun and a powerful motivator. That's why religious institutions crack down on it by branding overt sex taboo. Churches didn't want competition. Children are awful and a drain on resources.


The reason why religions are iffy about sex is that it is understood that real happiness cannot be found by the pursuit of worldly pleasures.


Well, the pursuit is fairly fun, but the real happiness is in the catching, yes.

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Re: Wave of anti-abortion bills advance in the states

Postby sardia » Mon Oct 20, 2014 8:47 pm UTC

zmic wrote:
sardia wrote:That's cuz sex is fun and a powerful motivator. That's why religious institutions crack down on it by branding overt sex taboo. Churches didn't want competition. Children are awful and a drain on resources.


The reason why religions are iffy about sex is that it is understood that real happiness cannot be found by the pursuit of worldly pleasures.

Are you saying widely understood from a religious aka likely erroneous pov or are you saying widely understood aka theory of gravity is correct metaphor?

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Re: Wave of anti-abortion bills advance in the states

Postby CorruptUser » Mon Oct 20, 2014 9:31 pm UTC

Derek wrote:
CorruptUser wrote:The implication is that if we have too many people, someone will die. Given that humans historically have murdered their own children rather than give up sex, the best possible option we have is to have widespread sex education, contraception, and abortion. In other words, if they have their way, "pro-lifers" will turn Earth back into the living hell that it was before widespread contraception/abortion.

It's like dealing with anti-vaxxers; you have been so far removed from the real problems of life that it's possible to make up problems.

You seriously think that without abortions populations would grow unsustainably?


Maybe. How many more people would the US have right now without abortions? How many more 50 years from now?

How much extra would you have to pay in tax to support all the single moms with extra mouths to feed? If you aren't footing the bill, you have no right to complain.


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