Wil Wheaton on the TSA

Seen something interesting in the news or on the intertubes? Discuss it here.

Moderators: Zamfir, Hawknc, Moderators General, Prelates

User avatar
folkhero
Posts: 1775
Joined: Fri Aug 01, 2008 3:34 am UTC

Re: Wil Wheaton on the TSA

Postby folkhero » Tue Apr 19, 2011 10:57 am UTC

The fact that it can't scale up to the entirety of US air travel is one problem. The fact that its effectiveness is extremely questionable is another problem. The fact that even if it were effective, terrorist attacks are so unlikely as to make it a waste of money anyway is another problem still. Someone bringing up one of those problems doesn't make the other problems not exist any more.
To all law enforcement entities, this is not an admission of guilt...

User avatar
Zamfir
I built a novelty castle, the irony was lost on some.
Posts: 7588
Joined: Wed Aug 27, 2008 2:43 pm UTC
Location: Nederland

Re: Wil Wheaton on the TSA

Postby Zamfir » Tue Apr 19, 2011 11:06 am UTC

sourmìlk wrote:So, it's not necessarily a matter of the procedure itself being ineffective, but the fact that it can't scale up?

I dunno. The procedures from Israel might or might not work. The problem with such rare events that is that it is nearly impossible to judge the effectiveness of individual actions with much certainty. Even if you observe a statistically significant drop in events, it's still hard to be sure what caused it.

That means something like a cost-benefit analysis is hard to pull off on any level but the most coarse. But one thing you can do is think about which actions are likely notto have an effect, because they are easily avoided or because they are hard to implement effectively. That set of very-likely-to-be-ineffective measures will be larger in the US, because there are simply more places to leave a hole or to mess up the implementation. So there are measures that might or might not be effective in Israel, but that would almost certainly not be effective in a larger situation.

And of course even if you can implement a measure everywhere reliably, the costs of an airport security measure in the US will larger (per capita), both in money and in time wasted. Because of the larger volume of traffic per capita and because of the extra trouble it takes to be sure that measure is implemented everywhere.

No matter how or where you want to draw a line on what actions to take, there will be less actions "worth the trouble" in the US, even if we assume the risks in the US are comparable to those in Israel.

User avatar
netcrusher88
Posts: 2166
Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2007 4:35 pm UTC
Location: Seattle

Re: Wil Wheaton on the TSA

Postby netcrusher88 » Tue Apr 19, 2011 2:07 pm UTC

sourmìlk wrote:Well yes, but we should probably be concerned with present threats and not past ones.

100% of terrorist attacks in the US in the last 9+ years were not carried out by Arabs, you racist piece of shit. Even if you count failed attempts it's somewhere around 90%.

You want a present threat to be concerned about, you should be asking why people assume terrorists are Arab Muslims when because of attitudes like that they're much more likely to be targets of terrorism - several mosques were attacked after that Somali kid was stopped in Portland last year. And why Republicans encourage that. As someone or other said, we shouldn't have hearings on the radicalization of American Muslims but the radicalization of Americans against Muslims.

Plus, as people have already pointed out, profiling Middle-Eastern looking people to reduce inconvenience for other people would be a gaping security hole. You don't protect against a threat - you protect against a threat profile. And frankly the only improvement for air travel on that mark since luggage x-rays and metal detectors is reinforced cockpit doors.
Sexothermic
I have only ever made one prayer to God, a very short one: "O Lord, make my enemies ridiculous." And God granted it. -Voltaire
They said we would never have a black president until Swine Flu. -Gears

User avatar
Jahoclave
sourmilk's moderator
Posts: 4790
Joined: Thu Oct 25, 2007 8:34 pm UTC
Contact:

Re: Wil Wheaton on the TSA

Postby Jahoclave » Tue Apr 19, 2011 3:53 pm UTC

sourmìlk wrote:
SlyReaper wrote:
sourmìlk wrote:
Jahoclave wrote:Really, western hegemony, centuries of colonization, economic oppression, don't factor into your picture at all? After all, if you're oppressed and have no political say in the matter it's expected of you to be passive until those with power decide that you deserve to be treated as fully human. Certain ideological notions of proper resistance against oppression serve only the oppressor.

No, particularly as we funded Al-Qaida and then they chose to go after purely ideological enemies like Israel. Speaking of Israel, many of the terrorist organizations they deal with started there activities before Israel committed any of the acts one might consider atrocities

Most forced segue ever.

The point of it was the show that terrorism need not arrive from oppression. In other words: terrorism isn't necessarily (or perhaps even usually) the result of our mistreatment of a people.

Ignoring your obvious limitation--the only way your argument is applicable is if modern Islamic resistance against the West started in the 18th century. Have you ever even taken a course on middle-eastern history? There's plenty of reasons for them to be pissed off at the west. And, quite frankly, we'd do a hell of a lot better if we addressed those instead of wasting money on racist screening measures--which, coincidentally, worsen the problem by continuing the Othering.

User avatar
EdgarJPublius
Official Propagandi.... Nifty Poster Guy
Posts: 3711
Joined: Tue Oct 09, 2007 4:56 am UTC
Location: where the wind takes me

Re: Wil Wheaton on the TSA

Postby EdgarJPublius » Tue Apr 19, 2011 5:17 pm UTC

sourmìlk wrote:So, it's not necessarily a matter of the procedure itself being ineffective, but the fact that it can't scale up?


No, it's pretty much exactly that the procedure itself is ineffective.
Roosevelt wrote:
I wrote:Does Space Teddy Roosevelt wrestle Space Bears and fight the Space Spanish-American War with his band of Space-volunteers the Space Rough Riders?

Yes.

-still unaware of the origin and meaning of his own user-title

User avatar
Dauric
Posts: 3988
Joined: Wed Aug 05, 2009 6:58 pm UTC
Location: In midair, traversing laterally over a container of sharks. No water, just sharks, with lasers.

Re: Wil Wheaton on the TSA

Postby Dauric » Tue Apr 19, 2011 5:23 pm UTC

EdgarJPublius wrote:
sourmìlk wrote:So, it's not necessarily a matter of the procedure itself being ineffective, but the fact that it can't scale up?


No, it's pretty much exactly that the procedure itself is ineffective.


And that scaling up an ineffective procedure tends to result in exponential growth of inefficiency.

Hyperbolic and oversimplified example: We've got one guy doing something completely useless, lets hire another guy to do the same useless procedure which will necessitate the hiring of a supervisor to ensure they're both conforming to the procedure regulations and being equally useless. So for double the uselessness you're paying triple the costs.
We're in the traffic-chopper over the XKCD boards where there's been a thread-derailment. A Liquified Godwin spill has evacuated threads in a fourty-post radius of the accident, Lolcats and TVTropes have broken free of their containers. It is believed that the Point has perished.

User avatar
Woofsie
Posts: 705
Joined: Fri Jun 20, 2008 1:11 pm UTC
Location: Ireland
Contact:

Re: Wil Wheaton on the TSA

Postby Woofsie » Tue Apr 19, 2011 7:33 pm UTC

In terms of effective strategies, I'm wondering if it would be worthwhile to scrap all the TSA stuff and instead put an armed security guard or two on every flight. I can't see it costing much more than all the scanners and personnel currently in use, and it seems like it would be a much bigger deterrent.

User avatar
Triangle_Man
WINNING
Posts: 1500
Joined: Sat May 02, 2009 8:41 pm UTC
Location: CANADA

Re: Wil Wheaton on the TSA

Postby Triangle_Man » Tue Apr 19, 2011 7:41 pm UTC

Woofsie wrote:In terms of effective strategies, I'm wondering if it would be worthwhile to scrap all the TSA stuff and instead put an armed security guard or two on every flight. I can't see it costing much more than all the scanners and personnel currently in use, and it seems like it would be a much bigger deterrent.


That could be a better deterrent, but then you'd need to spend money paying and training these guards.

Also, I believe that their is a specific reason why you don't want to fire a gun off on a place.

I'm a bit fuzzy on what that reason is, though.
I really should be working right now, but somehow I don't have the energy.

The Mighty Thesaurus wrote:My moral system allows me to bitch slap you for typing that.

hanecter
Posts: 190
Joined: Tue Dec 07, 2010 12:02 am UTC

Re: Wil Wheaton on the TSA

Postby hanecter » Tue Apr 19, 2011 7:45 pm UTC

This is something I truly don't understand.

If terrorists want to inflict maximum damage...why don't they hop on an Amtrak from Boston to NY and detonate in Grand Central? Practically zero security. Probably would get more than if they hopped on a plane.

I don't get it.

User avatar
Dauric
Posts: 3988
Joined: Wed Aug 05, 2009 6:58 pm UTC
Location: In midair, traversing laterally over a container of sharks. No water, just sharks, with lasers.

Re: Wil Wheaton on the TSA

Postby Dauric » Tue Apr 19, 2011 8:00 pm UTC

Triangle_Man wrote:
Woofsie wrote:In terms of effective strategies, I'm wondering if it would be worthwhile to scrap all the TSA stuff and instead put an armed security guard or two on every flight. I can't see it costing much more than all the scanners and personnel currently in use, and it seems like it would be a much bigger deterrent.


That could be a better deterrent, but then you'd need to spend money paying and training these guards.

Also, I believe that their is a specific reason why you don't want to fire a gun off on a place.

I'm a bit fuzzy on what that reason is, though.


Said guards would be the Federal Air Marshal Service.

As far as firing guns on a plane, you'd be primarily concerned with hitting bystanders in a crowded environment. A bullet-sized puncture isnt' going to rupture the plane* or create problems pressurizing the aircraft.

* Unless the aircraft had -severe- structural issues, but if that was the case you were screwed with or without the gunfire.


IMO: Take the billions we're ineffectively spending on TSA, set them back to looking for guns and knives with 'ol fashioned metal detectors, and let the CIA and FBI ineffectively spend that money** looking for actual terrorists using investigation of leads rather than treating everyone as a potential criminal.

** Yes, I'm being cynical.
hanecter wrote:This is something I truly don't understand.

If terrorists want to inflict maximum damage...why don't they hop on an Amtrak from Boston to NY and detonate in Grand Central? Practically zero security. Probably would get more than if they hopped on a plane.

I don't get it.


Hush, you're giving them ideas... </snark>

Actually Terrorists attack trains and bus stations a lot more than they attack aircraft. The Madrid Subway Attack one one of the more high-profile attacks for instance. It's a lot easier to pull off a ground attack than it is to pull off an airplane hijacking

Our government however is myopic about air-safety since the most recent/devastating attack that has happened on U.S. soil was committed with aircraft, 4 of them, at once. WTC was bombed in the early 90's with a car-bomb and there wasn't the long-term policy hysteria that 9/11 caused. Port security, Overland transport security, border security (real border security as opposed to immigration-theater) have all been points of critique for security analysts and consultants. The problem is airplanes are still 'sexy', where trains and cars aren't.
We're in the traffic-chopper over the XKCD boards where there's been a thread-derailment. A Liquified Godwin spill has evacuated threads in a fourty-post radius of the accident, Lolcats and TVTropes have broken free of their containers. It is believed that the Point has perished.

User avatar
Belial
A terrible sound heard from a distance
Posts: 30450
Joined: Sat Apr 15, 2006 4:04 am UTC
Contact:

Re: Wil Wheaton on the TSA

Postby Belial » Tue Apr 19, 2011 8:34 pm UTC

Dauric wrote:Our government however is myopic about air-safety since the most recent/devastating attack that has happened on U.S. soil was committed with aircraft, 4 of them, at once. WTC was bombed in the early 90's with a car-bomb and there wasn't the long-term policy hysteria that 9/11 caused. Port security, Overland transport security, border security (real border security as opposed to immigration-theater) have all been points of critique for security analysts and consultants. The problem is airplanes are still 'sexy', where trains and cars aren't.


And the thing is we *solved* the 9-11 problem like, immediately. Reinforce the cockpit doors. Done. Now the best a terrorist can do is blow up the plane and kill those on board and possibly injure people/property below. The whole using a plane as a missile thing? Not possible anymore.
addams wrote:A drunk neighbor is better than a sober Belial.


They/them

User avatar
Dauric
Posts: 3988
Joined: Wed Aug 05, 2009 6:58 pm UTC
Location: In midair, traversing laterally over a container of sharks. No water, just sharks, with lasers.

Re: Wil Wheaton on the TSA

Postby Dauric » Tue Apr 19, 2011 8:58 pm UTC

Belial wrote:
Dauric wrote:Our government however is myopic about air-safety since the most recent/devastating attack that has happened on U.S. soil was committed with aircraft, 4 of them, at once. WTC was bombed in the early 90's with a car-bomb and there wasn't the long-term policy hysteria that 9/11 caused. Port security, Overland transport security, border security (real border security as opposed to immigration-theater) have all been points of critique for security analysts and consultants. The problem is airplanes are still 'sexy', where trains and cars aren't.


And the thing is we *solved* the 9-11 problem like, immediately. Reinforce the cockpit doors. Done. Now the best a terrorist can do is blow up the plane and kill those on board and possibly injure people/property below. The whole using a plane as a missile thing? Not possible anymore.


Well, it's arguable that some people might consider "blow up the plane and kill those on board..." to be as much of a problem as "using the plane as a missile" problem. Wild and crazy as it sounds some of those people that think it's an equivalent problem would be the ones killed on the plane. Of course they're clearly delusional as anyone on board an aircraft isn't nearly as important as someone on the ground, but the TSA programs haven't gotten to the point of emphasizing that through mass electroshock therapy yet, they're working up to it through a Pavlovian response to dehumanization.

Snark aside it's still an escalation from most of the terrorist hijackings of the 80's where the terrorists would typically demand the release of 'political prisoners' and a refuel so they could take the plane to Whereverstan to make their getaway, and the safest course of action for passengers and crew was to play along and wait the situation out. The problem of suicide bombers on aircraft has been more 'fixed' by passengers being aware of their fellow passengers acting suspiciously and pro-actively thwarting attempts to detonate explosives, and through investigations by <insert TLA* organization here> in to potential bombing plots long before they get to the tarmac.

*TLA: Three Letter Acronym
We're in the traffic-chopper over the XKCD boards where there's been a thread-derailment. A Liquified Godwin spill has evacuated threads in a fourty-post radius of the accident, Lolcats and TVTropes have broken free of their containers. It is believed that the Point has perished.

User avatar
EdgarJPublius
Official Propagandi.... Nifty Poster Guy
Posts: 3711
Joined: Tue Oct 09, 2007 4:56 am UTC
Location: where the wind takes me

Re: Wil Wheaton on the TSA

Postby EdgarJPublius » Tue Apr 19, 2011 9:32 pm UTC

EdgarJPublius wrote: Since 9/11 two security features have generally proven extremely effective at preventing future attacks. One is improvements in proactive security and information gathering that has revealed and thwarted several attacks before they could be completed, and the other is the general alertness of passengers and crew and their willingness to defend themselves and their fellow passengers against threats which has also thwarted several attacks.
Special mention can go to reinforced cockpit doors and public policies of shooting down hijacked aircraft rather than allow them to be used in 9/11 style attacks both of which provide provable security in the event a hijacker is able to execute an attack and have likely provided some level of deterrent against other attacks.
Roosevelt wrote:
I wrote:Does Space Teddy Roosevelt wrestle Space Bears and fight the Space Spanish-American War with his band of Space-volunteers the Space Rough Riders?

Yes.

-still unaware of the origin and meaning of his own user-title

User avatar
Belial
A terrible sound heard from a distance
Posts: 30450
Joined: Sat Apr 15, 2006 4:04 am UTC
Contact:

Re: Wil Wheaton on the TSA

Postby Belial » Tue Apr 19, 2011 9:38 pm UTC

Yep. It makes planes into less attractive and dangerous targets, which makes them less likely to be hit. Now blowing up a plane is just as good, in terms of bodycount, as blowing up a train or a boat. Possibly less-good.

So, about why our plane security is so ridiculous, and our train security consists of a "See something, say something" announcement and a few underpaid transit cops....
addams wrote:A drunk neighbor is better than a sober Belial.


They/them

User avatar
Dauric
Posts: 3988
Joined: Wed Aug 05, 2009 6:58 pm UTC
Location: In midair, traversing laterally over a container of sharks. No water, just sharks, with lasers.

Re: Wil Wheaton on the TSA

Postby Dauric » Tue Apr 19, 2011 9:42 pm UTC

Belial wrote:Yep. It makes planes into less attractive and dangerous targets, which makes them less likely to be hit. Now blowing up a plane is just as good, in terms of bodycount, as blowing up a train or a boat. Possibly less-good.

So, about why our plane security is so ridiculous, and our train security consists of a "See something, say something" announcement and a few underpaid transit cops....


That's easy, airplanes are sexy-fast and travel to more places than trains. Passenger trains are normal on the east coast, but almost nonexistent in the west or west-coast. If you're pandering to votes in Ca. by proclaiming your stance on transportation security you bolster airports, not train stations which are predominantly for cargo rather than passenger service across the U.S.
We're in the traffic-chopper over the XKCD boards where there's been a thread-derailment. A Liquified Godwin spill has evacuated threads in a fourty-post radius of the accident, Lolcats and TVTropes have broken free of their containers. It is believed that the Point has perished.

User avatar
M.C.
Posts: 264
Joined: Sun Oct 03, 2010 1:06 pm UTC
Location: South of the equator.

Re: Wil Wheaton on the TSA

Postby M.C. » Wed Apr 20, 2011 12:12 am UTC

sourmìlk wrote:Well yes, but we should probably be concerned with present threats and not past ones.

Damn Brits, Frenchies, Germans... Australians.

Is this about 'Arab' people as in those from Arab countries, 'Arab' people as in the diverse racial mix that are the followers of Islam, or do you just not like people with dark skin?
Nobody likes Milhouse!

User avatar
sourmìlk
If I can't complain, can I at least express my fear?
Posts: 6393
Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2008 10:53 pm UTC
Location: permanently in the wrong
Contact:

Re: Wil Wheaton on the TSA

Postby sourmìlk » Wed Apr 20, 2011 4:16 am UTC

M.C. wrote:
sourmìlk wrote:Well yes, but we should probably be concerned with present threats and not past ones.

Damn Brits, Frenchies, Germans... Australians.

Who almost without exception were of middle-eastern ethnicity.

Is this about 'Arab' people as in those from Arab countries, 'Arab' people as in the diverse racial mix that are the followers of Islam, or do you just not like people with dark skin?


It's about recognizing and paying particular attention to groups that are more likely to attack.

Also: if 18th century Western activities are angering them, is there really much we can do to fix that? Clearly those people hold onto grudges very, very well.
Terry Pratchett wrote:The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it.

User avatar
M.C.
Posts: 264
Joined: Sun Oct 03, 2010 1:06 pm UTC
Location: South of the equator.

Re: Wil Wheaton on the TSA

Postby M.C. » Wed Apr 20, 2011 4:29 am UTC

Did you bother looking at the people or did you just assume the name meant something? There were Africans, a Jamaican and someone who could pass as white. That list itself was sorted based on the 'War on Terror', ignoring the random events that happen in isolation. The point is, saying one group is more likely is a meaningless, useless statement.

Also, please don't dismiss the causes of extremism as 18th century. The issue is much more complicated than that, and you (coming from a minority yourself) should be able to empathize with the feelings of persecution which is very often a factor.
Nobody likes Milhouse!

User avatar
netcrusher88
Posts: 2166
Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2007 4:35 pm UTC
Location: Seattle

Re: Wil Wheaton on the TSA

Postby netcrusher88 » Wed Apr 20, 2011 4:32 am UTC

sourmìlk wrote:It's about recognizing and paying particular attention to groups that are more likely to attack.

Also: if 18th century Western activities are angering them, is there really much we can do to fix that? Clearly those people hold onto grudges very, very well.

netcrusher88 wrote:100% of terrorist attacks in the US in the last 9+ years were not carried out by Arabs, you racist piece of shit. Even if you count failed attempts it's somewhere around 90%.

You want a present threat to be concerned about, you should be asking why people assume terrorists are Arab Muslims when because of attitudes like that they're much more likely to be targets of terrorism - several mosques were attacked after that Somali kid was stopped in Portland last year. And why Republicans encourage that. As someone or other said, we shouldn't have hearings on the radicalization of American Muslims but the radicalization of Americans against Muslims.

Plus, as people have already pointed out, profiling Middle-Eastern looking people to reduce inconvenience for other people would be a gaping security hole. You don't protect against a threat - you protect against a threat profile. And frankly the only improvement for air travel on that mark since luggage x-rays and metal detectors is reinforced cockpit doors.


Fascinating that this should come up on the anniversary of the Oklahoma City bombing, the second most egregious act of terrorism ever committed against the US (that's really saying something).

I say this so as to point out - Timothy McVeigh was a white, Roman Catholic/agnostic (little of column a, little of column b), American citizen.

Which, in sourmilk's book, is evidently synonymous with Arab.
Sexothermic
I have only ever made one prayer to God, a very short one: "O Lord, make my enemies ridiculous." And God granted it. -Voltaire
They said we would never have a black president until Swine Flu. -Gears

User avatar
sourmìlk
If I can't complain, can I at least express my fear?
Posts: 6393
Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2008 10:53 pm UTC
Location: permanently in the wrong
Contact:

Re: Wil Wheaton on the TSA

Postby sourmìlk » Wed Apr 20, 2011 5:04 am UTC

So apparently I was wrong about demographics. I stand by my statement, however, that if there is a group more likely to attack, we should be paying more attention.
Terry Pratchett wrote:The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it.

User avatar
podbaydoor
Posts: 7548
Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2007 4:16 am UTC
Location: spaceship somewhere out there

Re: Wil Wheaton on the TSA

Postby podbaydoor » Wed Apr 20, 2011 5:10 am UTC

The issue is, of course, a definitely terroristic demographic with anything as convenient as similar skin colors doesn't currently exist. If I recall correctly, the most recent airplane scare involving dark-skinned men in hats turned out to be orthodox Jews trying to pray while on their flight.
tenet |ˈtenit|
noun
a principle or belief, esp. one of the main principles of a religion or philosophy : the tenets of classical liberalism.
tenant |ˈtenənt|
noun
a person who occupies land or property rented from a landlord.

User avatar
M.C.
Posts: 264
Joined: Sun Oct 03, 2010 1:06 pm UTC
Location: South of the equator.

Re: Wil Wheaton on the TSA

Postby M.C. » Wed Apr 20, 2011 5:12 am UTC

Yes, but paying more attention != intensive screening for an ethnic group at the terminal. Paying more attention should manifest itself in increased monitoring of extremist groups, or better communication with the mainstream community so that they know how to identify and disrupt extremism spreading for example. Racial profiling at terminals is the laziest way to 'pay more attention'.
Nobody likes Milhouse!

User avatar
sourmìlk
If I can't complain, can I at least express my fear?
Posts: 6393
Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2008 10:53 pm UTC
Location: permanently in the wrong
Contact:

Re: Wil Wheaton on the TSA

Postby sourmìlk » Wed Apr 20, 2011 5:14 am UTC

M.C. wrote:Yes, but paying more attention != intensive screening for an ethnic group at the terminal. Paying more attention should manifest itself in increased monitoring of extremist groups, or better communication with the mainstream community so that they know how to identify and disrupt extremism spreading for example. Racial profiling at terminals is the laziest way to 'pay more attention'.


But it doesn't exclude those other forms. Profiling should be a part of those measures. There's no reason why we should spend as much time questioning a 70 year old with her granddaughter as much as we should somebody who falls into a demographic more likely to commit terror.
Terry Pratchett wrote:The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it.

User avatar
M.C.
Posts: 264
Joined: Sun Oct 03, 2010 1:06 pm UTC
Location: South of the equator.

Re: Wil Wheaton on the TSA

Postby M.C. » Wed Apr 20, 2011 5:19 am UTC

sourmìlk wrote:But it doesn't exclude those other forms. Profiling should be a part of those measures. There's no reason why we should spend as much time questioning a 70 year old with her granddaughter as much as we should somebody who falls into a demographic more likely to commit terror.


Precisely. The issue is where we draw the line. I would say that simply wearing a turban or Islamic garb isn't enough to qualify one into a 'likely demographic' - I would put it at 'baggage screen turned up something unusual' or the 'checking in online for a ticket bought very recently for an international, one-way flight with no luggage'.
Nobody likes Milhouse!

User avatar
sourmìlk
If I can't complain, can I at least express my fear?
Posts: 6393
Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2008 10:53 pm UTC
Location: permanently in the wrong
Contact:

Re: Wil Wheaton on the TSA

Postby sourmìlk » Wed Apr 20, 2011 5:24 am UTC

M.C. wrote:
sourmìlk wrote:But it doesn't exclude those other forms. Profiling should be a part of those measures. There's no reason why we should spend as much time questioning a 70 year old with her granddaughter as much as we should somebody who falls into a demographic more likely to commit terror.


Precisely. The issue is where we draw the line. I would say that simply wearing a turban or Islamic garb isn't enough to qualify one into a 'likely demographic' - I would put it at 'baggage screen turned up something unusual' or the 'checking in online for a ticket bought very recently for an international, one-way flight with no luggage'.


To a certain degree we have to pay more attention to ethnic and other kinds of demographics. I'd certainly want a 20-30 year old male flying alone to receive more scrutiny than, say, a 20-30 year old male and his daughter flying.
Terry Pratchett wrote:The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it.

User avatar
EdgarJPublius
Official Propagandi.... Nifty Poster Guy
Posts: 3711
Joined: Tue Oct 09, 2007 4:56 am UTC
Location: where the wind takes me

Re: Wil Wheaton on the TSA

Postby EdgarJPublius » Wed Apr 20, 2011 5:41 am UTC

podbaydoor wrote:The issue is...


That profiling based on demographics Doesn't. Work.

sourmìlk wrote:. There's no reason why we should spend as much time questioning a 70 year old with her granddaughter as much as we should somebody who falls into a demographic more likely to commit terror.


There's no reason why we should waste any time questioning anybody in an airport security line.

The idea that there is/are some demographics that are 'more likely to commit terror' is furthermore complete nonsense, anybody regardless of ethnicity can commit terror, there is no particular racial or ethnic component to the predilection to commit terrorism.


sourmìlk wrote:To a certain degree we have to pay more attention to ethnic and other kinds of demographics. I'd certainly want a 20-30 year old male flying alone to receive more scrutiny than, say, a 20-30 year old male and his daughter flying.


If you have to rely on 'evidence' as flimsy as "a young male on a one way flight alone with little luggage" then you might as well go back to square one. You've just described a not insignificant number of business travelers while cutting out terrorists who might be older, are sometimes female and might have families, accomplices or may otherwise travel with an unawares group.
It's not difficult or prohibitively expensive to buy a two way ticket or join a chartered tour group.
At least one of the 9/11 hijackers even established a frequent flyer account just a few weeks before the attack.
Roosevelt wrote:
I wrote:Does Space Teddy Roosevelt wrestle Space Bears and fight the Space Spanish-American War with his band of Space-volunteers the Space Rough Riders?

Yes.

-still unaware of the origin and meaning of his own user-title

User avatar
sourmìlk
If I can't complain, can I at least express my fear?
Posts: 6393
Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2008 10:53 pm UTC
Location: permanently in the wrong
Contact:

Re: Wil Wheaton on the TSA

Postby sourmìlk » Wed Apr 20, 2011 6:53 am UTC

EdgarJPublius wrote:
podbaydoor wrote:The issue is...


That profiling based on demographics Doesn't. Work.

sourmìlk wrote:. There's no reason why we should spend as much time questioning a 70 year old with her granddaughter as much as we should somebody who falls into a demographic more likely to commit terror.


There's no reason why we should waste any time questioning anybody in an airport security line.

The idea that there is/are some demographics that are 'more likely to commit terror' is furthermore complete nonsense, anybody regardless of ethnicity can commit terror, there is no particular racial or ethnic component to the predilection to commit terrorism.


eh, maybe in America, but that's certainly not the case worldwide. If you were Irish in Britain you would rightfully be looked at more. Same if you're Arab in Israel. And notice how I said if there is a demographic more likely to commit terror.
Terry Pratchett wrote:The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it.

User avatar
M.C.
Posts: 264
Joined: Sun Oct 03, 2010 1:06 pm UTC
Location: South of the equator.

Re: Wil Wheaton on the TSA

Postby M.C. » Wed Apr 20, 2011 8:31 am UTC

I would be amazed, astounded even, if there was racial profiling against the Irish in British airports.
Nobody likes Milhouse!

User avatar
Hawknc
Oompa Loompa of SCIENCE!
Posts: 6986
Joined: Mon Oct 02, 2006 5:14 am UTC
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: Wil Wheaton on the TSA

Postby Hawknc » Wed Apr 20, 2011 9:52 am UTC

sourmìlk wrote:
M.C. wrote:
sourmìlk wrote:Well yes, but we should probably be concerned with present threats and not past ones.

Damn Brits, Frenchies, Germans... Australians.

Who almost without exception were of middle-eastern ethnicity.

David Hicks was a white Australian citizen.
sourmìlk wrote:And notice how I said if there is a demographic more likely to commit terror.

There isn't, we've covered that. So why are you still talking about it?

User avatar
Box Boy
WINNING
Posts: 1356
Joined: Thu Nov 20, 2008 9:33 pm UTC

Re: Wil Wheaton on the TSA

Postby Box Boy » Wed Apr 20, 2011 12:57 pm UTC

M.C. wrote:I would be amazed, astounded even, if there was racial profiling against the Irish in British airports.

There isn't, from everything I've ever seen they don't seem to care.
I've also never heard of anything indicating such.
Signatures are for chumps.

User avatar
Dream
WINNING
Posts: 4338
Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2007 7:20 pm UTC
Location: The Hollow Scene Epic

Re: Wil Wheaton on the TSA

Postby Dream » Wed Apr 20, 2011 1:19 pm UTC

sourmìlk wrote: If you were Irish in Britain you would rightfully be looked at more.

There is a special channel at Gatwick Airport to allow Irish passport holders whose origin is the Republic to bypass arrivals security. You can also travel between the two nations without carrying a passport, and mutual residence and working agreements between the nations predate the European common market. There is no border or immigration apparatus of any kind between southern and Northern Ireland. Today it takes traveling with a person who knew the old militarised border to spot where it used to be. But don't let facts get in the way of stupidity. That would be a shame.
I knew a woman once, but she died soon after.

User avatar
sourmìlk
If I can't complain, can I at least express my fear?
Posts: 6393
Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2008 10:53 pm UTC
Location: permanently in the wrong
Contact:

Re: Wil Wheaton on the TSA

Postby sourmìlk » Wed Apr 20, 2011 3:53 pm UTC

Was, I said that there was profiling. This was well over a decade ago, potentially two decades ago.
Terry Pratchett wrote:The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it.

User avatar
Dream
WINNING
Posts: 4338
Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2007 7:20 pm UTC
Location: The Hollow Scene Epic

Re: Wil Wheaton on the TSA

Postby Dream » Wed Apr 20, 2011 4:22 pm UTC

sourmìlk wrote:Was, I said that there was profiling. This was well over a decade ago, potentially two decades ago.
Well over a decade ago, well over two decades ago, I was travelling between the Republic and the UK on a very regular basis. I know you weren't born, but moreso I also know you haven't in fact educated yourself about the border control policies between the two countries at all, yet you talk like you have. If you're ever wondering why anyone refuses to take you seriously in discussions, remember that you once tried to school an Irish person who'd lived for many years in the UK, with many relatives in Northern Ireland, and great experience crossing the border both before and after the Troubles, on the vagaries of travel between the two countries.

Remember that that was stupid, and that many other people here were reading what you wrote.
I knew a woman once, but she died soon after.

User avatar
sourmìlk
If I can't complain, can I at least express my fear?
Posts: 6393
Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2008 10:53 pm UTC
Location: permanently in the wrong
Contact:

Re: Wil Wheaton on the TSA

Postby sourmìlk » Wed Apr 20, 2011 4:53 pm UTC

How did you generally cross between borders? And I checked: this was two decades ago. And look, I may be wrong. That happens. But I didn't directly contradict you, and if we're talking about how we come across on these fora then dedicating a post to insulting me doesn't help your image at all.
Terry Pratchett wrote:The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it.

User avatar
EdgarJPublius
Official Propagandi.... Nifty Poster Guy
Posts: 3711
Joined: Tue Oct 09, 2007 4:56 am UTC
Location: where the wind takes me

Re: Wil Wheaton on the TSA

Postby EdgarJPublius » Wed Apr 20, 2011 5:31 pm UTC

sourmìlk wrote: If you were Irish in Britain you would rightfully be looked at more. Same if you're Arab in Israel.


No, ethnic profiling is never 'rightful'.

sourmìlk wrote: And notice how I said if there is a demographic more likely to commit terror.


Notice how I said it it doesn't matter if there is such a demographic because 1. demographic profiling doesn't work and
2. even if it did, it is easy to obscure or disguise demographic information.
Roosevelt wrote:
I wrote:Does Space Teddy Roosevelt wrestle Space Bears and fight the Space Spanish-American War with his band of Space-volunteers the Space Rough Riders?

Yes.

-still unaware of the origin and meaning of his own user-title

User avatar
sourmìlk
If I can't complain, can I at least express my fear?
Posts: 6393
Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2008 10:53 pm UTC
Location: permanently in the wrong
Contact:

Re: Wil Wheaton on the TSA

Postby sourmìlk » Wed Apr 20, 2011 5:39 pm UTC

EdgarJPublius wrote:
sourmìlk wrote: If you were Irish in Britain you would rightfully be looked at more. Same if you're Arab in Israel.


No, ethnic profiling is never 'rightful'.

It is if a specific ethnic group is more likely to be a terrorist.

sourmìlk wrote: And notice how I said if there is a demographic more likely to commit terror.


Notice how I said it it doesn't matter if there is such a demographic because
1. demographic profiling doesn't work

[citation needed]

2. even if it did, it is easy to obscure or disguise demographic information.

This disagrees with the premise that there's an ethnic group more likely to commit terrorism is people recruit other ethnic groups easily.
Terry Pratchett wrote:The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it.

User avatar
podbaydoor
Posts: 7548
Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2007 4:16 am UTC
Location: spaceship somewhere out there

Re: Wil Wheaton on the TSA

Postby podbaydoor » Wed Apr 20, 2011 5:48 pm UTC

sourmilk, you've missed the part where the bulk of recent airplane scares didn't involve Arabs, right? They were Nigerian or Caucasian or something other than brown and turban'd. Are we now ethnic profiling white Republican males with guns because they keep forming militias and shooting abortion doctors? The Obama administration got raked over the coals for trying out that one.
tenet |ˈtenit|
noun
a principle or belief, esp. one of the main principles of a religion or philosophy : the tenets of classical liberalism.
tenant |ˈtenənt|
noun
a person who occupies land or property rented from a landlord.

User avatar
sourmìlk
If I can't complain, can I at least express my fear?
Posts: 6393
Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2008 10:53 pm UTC
Location: permanently in the wrong
Contact:

Re: Wil Wheaton on the TSA

Postby sourmìlk » Wed Apr 20, 2011 5:50 pm UTC

podbaydoor wrote:sourmilk, you've missed the part where the bulk of recent airplane scares didn't involve Arabs, right? They were Nigerian or Caucasian or something other than brown and turban'd. Are we now ethnic profiling white Republican males with guns because they keep forming militias and shooting abortion doctors? The Obama administration got raked over the coals for trying out that one.

What's your point?
Terry Pratchett wrote:The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it.

User avatar
podbaydoor
Posts: 7548
Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2007 4:16 am UTC
Location: spaceship somewhere out there

Re: Wil Wheaton on the TSA

Postby podbaydoor » Wed Apr 20, 2011 5:51 pm UTC

My point is that just ethnic profiling brown people is disingenuous, given that (it turns out) lots of ethnicities commit terrorism. And being satirical about the fact that it's acceptable to propose profiling non-whites, but attempts to profile whites are treated as hysterical and possibly communist.
Last edited by podbaydoor on Wed Apr 20, 2011 5:52 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.
tenet |ˈtenit|
noun
a principle or belief, esp. one of the main principles of a religion or philosophy : the tenets of classical liberalism.
tenant |ˈtenənt|
noun
a person who occupies land or property rented from a landlord.

User avatar
Aikanaro
Posts: 1801
Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2008 1:43 pm UTC
Location: Saint Louis, MO

Re: Wil Wheaton on the TSA

Postby Aikanaro » Wed Apr 20, 2011 5:51 pm UTC

podbaydoor wrote:sourmilk, you've missed the part where the bulk of recent airplane scares didn't involve Arabs, right? They were Nigerian or Caucasian or something other than brown and turban'd. Are we now ethnic profiling white Republican males with guns because they keep forming militias and shooting abortion doctors? The Obama administration got raked over the coals for trying out that one.

I never heard about this! Link please? The thought of it fills me with glee....
Dear xkcd,

On behalf of my religion, I'm sorry so many of us do dumb shit. Please forgive us.

Love, Aikanaro.


Return to “News & Articles”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 19 guests