Wil Wheaton on the TSA

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Re: Wil Wheaton on the TSA

Postby Aikanaro » Wed Apr 20, 2011 5:51 pm UTC

podbaydoor wrote:sourmilk, you've missed the part where the bulk of recent airplane scares didn't involve Arabs, right? They were Nigerian or Caucasian or something other than brown and turban'd. Are we now ethnic profiling white Republican males with guns because they keep forming militias and shooting abortion doctors? The Obama administration got raked over the coals for trying out that one.

I never heard about this! Link please? The thought of it fills me with glee....
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Re: Wil Wheaton on the TSA

Postby sourmìlk » Wed Apr 20, 2011 5:53 pm UTC

podbaydoor wrote:My point is that just ethnic profiling brown people is disingenuous, given that (it turns out) lots of ethnicities commit terrorism. And being satirical about the fact that it's acceptable to propose profiling non-whites, but attempts to profile whites are treated as hysterical and possibly communist.

Okay, but I thought we were now arguing whether or not ethnic profiling was okay given that there existed a demographic more likely to commit terror.
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Re: Wil Wheaton on the TSA

Postby podbaydoor » Wed Apr 20, 2011 5:55 pm UTC

@Aikanaro: I'm on my lunch break so I don't have time to find it at the moment, but I think some department - maybe Homeland Security or something - released a report a couple years ago warning about the rise of far right militias and talking about their typical members - white, male, and Republican. This was of course seized by the right with howls of alternating derision and frenzy.

@sourmilk: And white male Republicans are more likely to shoot abortion doctors and bomb clinics. Are we questioning them in the streets?
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Re: Wil Wheaton on the TSA

Postby sourmìlk » Wed Apr 20, 2011 5:58 pm UTC

podbaydoor wrote:@sourmilk: And white male Republicans are more likely to shoot abortion doctors and bomb clinics. Are we questioning them in the streets?


No, clearly the streets would not be an appropriate venue for that kind of profiling.
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Re: Wil Wheaton on the TSA

Postby Magnanimous » Wed Apr 20, 2011 6:09 pm UTC

sourmìlk wrote:Okay, but I thought we were now arguing whether or not ethnic profiling was okay given that there existed a demographic more likely to commit terror.

Even if the average bomber is Arabic, what's going to happen when we split the security lines into "Your skin must be ________ to enter"? It'll be harder for an Arabic terrorist, sure, but also a hell of a lot easier for a white terrorist.

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Re: Wil Wheaton on the TSA

Postby sourmìlk » Wed Apr 20, 2011 6:27 pm UTC

Magnanimous wrote:
sourmìlk wrote:Okay, but I thought we were now arguing whether or not ethnic profiling was okay given that there existed a demographic more likely to commit terror.

Even if the average bomber is Arabic, what's going to happen when we split the security lines into "Your skin must be ________ to enter"? It'll be harder for an Arabic terrorist, sure, but also a hell of a lot easier for a white terrorist.


Okay, but white terrorists in this situation would barely be a threat anyways. It makes no sense to spend as much time on groups less likely to commit acts of terror
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Re: Wil Wheaton on the TSA

Postby Belial » Wed Apr 20, 2011 6:37 pm UTC

White shoplifters just fucking love it when storeminders apply that same logic.
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Re: Wil Wheaton on the TSA

Postby sourmìlk » Wed Apr 20, 2011 6:43 pm UTC

Belial wrote:White shoplifters just fucking love it when storeminders apply that same logic.

There is no correlation between race and likelihood of shoplifting.

(http://books.google.com/books?id=Z3kU3x ... ty&f=false)
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Re: Wil Wheaton on the TSA

Postby Belial » Wed Apr 20, 2011 6:49 pm UTC

Same with terror and arabs. The perception certainly works to someone's advantage, though.
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Re: Wil Wheaton on the TSA

Postby Dauric » Wed Apr 20, 2011 6:50 pm UTC

sourmìlk wrote:
Belial wrote:White shoplifters just fucking love it when storeminders apply that same logic.

There is no correlation between race and likelihood of shoplifting.

(http://books.google.com/books?id=Z3kU3x ... ty&f=false)


Which is why -white- shoplifters love it when shopkeepers/storeminders apply the fallacy that minorities are more likely to shoplift. The storeminders are looking carefully at the black/brown guy, and the white guy that came in just behind has more opportunities to stuff his jacket with stuff. Time his exit with the minority-person and the shopkeep will pay more attention to the minority than the actual shoplifter.

This is why profiling fails. It redirects attention and resources to examining people that fit a fallacy, an the redirection of resources and attention means that there's another opening to exploit.
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Re: Wil Wheaton on the TSA

Postby sourmìlk » Wed Apr 20, 2011 6:52 pm UTC

Again, we're supposed to be assuming that the moment that there is a group more likely to commit terrorism.
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Re: Wil Wheaton on the TSA

Postby Belial » Wed Apr 20, 2011 6:53 pm UTC

And, putting aside the fact that that's still dumb, it has been pointed out repeatedly that there isn't. Which makes this whole batch of hypothetical idiocy entirely off-topic.
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Re: Wil Wheaton on the TSA

Postby sourmìlk » Wed Apr 20, 2011 7:03 pm UTC

Belial wrote:And, putting aside the fact that that's still dumb, it has been pointed out repeatedly that there isn't. Which makes this whole batch of hypothetical idiocy entirely off-topic.



Well no: somebody asserted that ethnic profiling would be bad even if there were a demographic morel likely to commit terror. My question "why?" hasn't been answered.
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Re: Wil Wheaton on the TSA

Postby Dauric » Wed Apr 20, 2011 7:22 pm UTC

sourmìlk wrote:
Belial wrote:And, putting aside the fact that that's still dumb, it has been pointed out repeatedly that there isn't. Which makes this whole batch of hypothetical idiocy entirely off-topic.



Well no: somebody asserted that ethnic profiling would be bad even if there were a demographic morel likely to commit terror. My question "why?" hasn't been answered.


Because suspecting someone of a crime because of their skin color is a shittastic way to treat other human beings. There was this whole Civil Rights Movement 'bout 40-50 years ago, maybe you've heard of it 'cause it covers the answer you're looking for in far more detail than you're going to get in a current events forum.
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Re: Wil Wheaton on the TSA

Postby sourmìlk » Wed Apr 20, 2011 7:28 pm UTC

Dauric wrote:
sourmìlk wrote:
Belial wrote:And, putting aside the fact that that's still dumb, it has been pointed out repeatedly that there isn't. Which makes this whole batch of hypothetical idiocy entirely off-topic.



Well no: somebody asserted that ethnic profiling would be bad even if there were a demographic morel likely to commit terror. My question "why?" hasn't been answered.


Because suspecting someone of a crime because of their skin color is a shittastic way to treat other human beings.


Strawman. I'm not suspecting anybody of anything based on their anything. However, if a demographic is more likely to commit an act of terror, it seems like we should be looking at them more instead of wasting our resources examining other demographics just as much just to avoid accusations of racism.
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Re: Wil Wheaton on the TSA

Postby Heisenberg » Wed Apr 20, 2011 7:32 pm UTC

sourmìlk wrote:I'm not suspecting anybody of anything based on their anything.
Oh, lovely. Then you won't be needing to submit them to searches and seizures which by their very nature would be unreasonable and unconstitutional.

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Re: Wil Wheaton on the TSA

Postby sourmìlk » Wed Apr 20, 2011 7:37 pm UTC

Heisenberg wrote:
sourmìlk wrote:I'm not suspecting anybody of anything based on their anything.
Oh, lovely. Then you won't be needing to submit them to searches and seizures which by their very nature would be unreasonable and unconstitutional.


I never said I approved of the TSA's current procedures. Actually, I explicitly said I disapproved of the,
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Re: Wil Wheaton on the TSA

Postby Dauric » Wed Apr 20, 2011 7:38 pm UTC

sourmìlk wrote:
Dauric wrote:Because suspecting someone of a crime because of their skin color is a shittastic way to treat other human beings.


Strawman. I'm not suspecting anybody of anything based on their anything.


This is the definition of racial/ethnic profiling. You place extra scrutiny on a group because you'r suspicions lead you to be sure you're going to catch more from that ethnicity than everyone else.

However, if a demographic is more likely to commit an act of terror, it seems like we should be looking at them more instead of wasting our resources examining other demographics just as much just to avoid accusations of racism.


Again: Show where there is such a trend. Perhaps there isn't one precisely because if you had one the terrorists would look for sympathetic people outside those groups to slip past the focus on the selected groups, and take advantage of lesser scrutiny of those outside the targeted ethnicity. Racial profiling creates an environment where the easiest way to defeat it is to buck the trend that Racial Profiling requires. If you don't target an ethnicity, there's no reduced scrutiny of other ethnicities to take advantage of.

-And- because it's a shittastic way to treat people, and targeting any ethnicity for shittastic treatment engenders an "Us Vs. Them" mentality that plays in to the propaganda of the terrorists.
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Re: Wil Wheaton on the TSA

Postby Magnanimous » Wed Apr 20, 2011 7:39 pm UTC

sourmìlk wrote:Strawman. I'm not suspecting anybody of anything based on their anything. However, if a demographic is more likely to commit an act of terror, it seems like we should suspect people of something based on their something.

Again, there's a huge difference between "the current majority of terrorists are Arabic" and "Arabic people are more likely to become terrorists".

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Re: Wil Wheaton on the TSA

Postby sourmìlk » Wed Apr 20, 2011 7:46 pm UTC

Magnanimous wrote:
sourmìlk wrote:Strawman. I'm not suspecting anybody of anything based on their anything. However, if a demographic is more likely to commit an act of terror, it seems like we should suspect people of something based on their something.

Again, there's a huge difference between "the current majority of terrorists are Arabic" and "Arabic people are more likely to become terrorists".

Sure, but the statements "Arabs have a higher percentage of terrorists than any other ethnicity" (which may or may not be true) equates to "Arab people are more likely to be terrorists."

Dauric wrote:his is the definition of racial/ethnic profiling. You place extra scrutiny on a group because you'r suspicions statistics lead you to be sure know you're going to catch more from that ethnicity than everyone else.


FTFY.

Perhaps there isn't one precisely because if you had one the terrorists would look for sympathetic people outside those groups to slip past the focus on the selected groups, and take advantage of lesser scrutiny of those outside the targeted ethnicity.


In other words, racial profiling doesn't work if it turns out that there isn't a demographic(s) more likely to commit terror. I believe we all know this.
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Re: Wil Wheaton on the TSA

Postby Belial » Wed Apr 20, 2011 7:52 pm UTC

sourmìlk wrote:
Perhaps there isn't one precisely because if you had one the terrorists would look for sympathetic people outside those groups to slip past the focus on the selected groups, and take advantage of lesser scrutiny of those outside the targeted ethnicity.


In other words, racial profiling doesn't work if it turns out that there isn't a demographic(s) more likely to commit terror. I believe we all know this.


That's not what that says.

What that says is that if you open a security hole, people will drive a car-bomb through it. Racial profiling opens a giant security hole. Which means that even if arabs were more likely to be terrorists before you implemented the policy, now all the terrorists are white people and the net total terrorism has gone up. Nice job breaking everything and being a racist tool.
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Re: Wil Wheaton on the TSA

Postby sourmìlk » Wed Apr 20, 2011 7:56 pm UTC

Belial wrote:
sourmìlk wrote:
Perhaps there isn't one precisely because if you had one the terrorists would look for sympathetic people outside those groups to slip past the focus on the selected groups, and take advantage of lesser scrutiny of those outside the targeted ethnicity.


In other words, racial profiling doesn't work if it turns out that there isn't a demographic(s) more likely to commit terror. I believe we all know this.


That's not what that says.

What that says is that if you open a security hole, people will drive a car-bomb through it. Racial profiling opens a giant security hole. Which means that even if arabs were more likely to be terrorists before you implemented the policy, now all the terrorists are white people and the net total terrorism has gone up. Nice job breaking everything and being a racist tool.


How often does that actually happen? How effective are terrorists at recruiting outsiders?
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Re: Wil Wheaton on the TSA

Postby podbaydoor » Wed Apr 20, 2011 8:03 pm UTC

It depends on what they're terrorizing for. Which is...basically anything you can think of.
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Re: Wil Wheaton on the TSA

Postby Belial » Wed Apr 20, 2011 8:05 pm UTC

Yeah. Nevermind all the non-muslim and/or non-arab terrorist organizations who *currently* consider airline attacks to be a losing proposition but might rethink if you suddenly made it ridiculously easier.
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Re: Wil Wheaton on the TSA

Postby sourmìlk » Wed Apr 20, 2011 8:07 pm UTC

Belial wrote:Yeah. Nevermind all the non-muslim and/or non-arab terrorist organizations who *currently* consider airline attacks to be a losing proposition but might rethink if you suddenly made it ridiculously easier.


Right which is why we're arguing in a hypothetical where this is a demographic more likely to commit terror, rather than the several terrorist groups you just referenced.
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Re: Wil Wheaton on the TSA

Postby Telchar » Wed Apr 20, 2011 8:09 pm UTC

And in that hypothethetical that demographic shifts once you start profiling it. If they realize you are targeting arabs with profiling they are then white people. If you start profiling white people they become Mexican.
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Re: Wil Wheaton on the TSA

Postby sourmìlk » Wed Apr 20, 2011 8:12 pm UTC

Telchar wrote:And in that hypothethetical that demographic shifts once you start profiling it. If they realize you are targeting arabs with profiling they are then white people. If you start profiling white people they become Mexican.


My point is: how do we know this? Recruiting people of various ethnicities helps terrorists anyways, so they would be doing it now. Could they even be doing it more? How good are they, exactly, at recruiting outsiders?
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Re: Wil Wheaton on the TSA

Postby Telchar » Wed Apr 20, 2011 8:14 pm UTC

sourmìlk wrote:
Telchar wrote:And in that hypothethetical that demographic shifts once you start profiling it. If they realize you are targeting arabs with profiling they are then white people. If you start profiling white people they become Mexican.


My point is: how do we know this? Recruiting people of various ethnicities helps terrorists anyways, so they would be doing it now. Could they even be doing it more? How good are they, exactly, at recruiting outsiders?


Your assumption is that there is one terrorist organization. You're right that maybe Al Queda can't get a ton of Chinese to join their ranks, but that doesn't mean various asian terrorists can't. Once you start using profiling it opens up the door for terrorists groups that don't fit your profile.
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Re: Wil Wheaton on the TSA

Postby Belial » Wed Apr 20, 2011 8:14 pm UTC

Terrorism isn't an act of impulse. It responds to the precautions in place. Terrorists are people with brains in their skulls, so they make their plans based on the situation they have to work with. If you've made it clear that arabs are going to be hyper-scrutinized and white people allowed to waltz through security with a pat on the shoulder and an "isn't it awesome to be white?"

Well, expect your "arabs are more likely to be terrorists" statistic (the one you're making up) to change in a hurry. Sending an arab through would be stupid. So you recruit someone else. Meanwhile, since we're not assuming that arabs are the only ones who do terror, those other less active or less numerous groups are likely to step up their number of attacks because you just changed the balance sheet and they're suddenly worth the effort.

Building a really awesome wall doesn't do you much good if you only build it around three sides of your property. All you've done is spend a lot of money to make sure I walk around to side 4. Moving all three walls to one side to make one big SUPER WALL is not an improvement.
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Re: Wil Wheaton on the TSA

Postby sourmìlk » Wed Apr 20, 2011 8:18 pm UTC

Telchar wrote:
sourmìlk wrote:
Telchar wrote:And in that hypothethetical that demographic shifts once you start profiling it. If they realize you are targeting arabs with profiling they are then white people. If you start profiling white people they become Mexican.


My point is: how do we know this? Recruiting people of various ethnicities helps terrorists anyways, so they would be doing it now. Could they even be doing it more? How good are they, exactly, at recruiting outsiders?


Your assumption is that there is one terrorist organization. You're right that maybe Al Queda can't get a ton of Chinese to join their ranks, but that doesn't mean various asian terrorists can't. Once you start using profiling it opens up the door for terrorists groups that don't fit your profile.


My assumption is that because, as I've said many times, this is a hypothetical in which there is a demographic more likely to commit terror. the point of this hypothetical is to decide whether ethnic profiling could work, i.e. whether or not there's something inherently ineffective about it.

Belial wrote:If you've made it clear that arabs are going to be hyper-scrutinized and white people allowed to waltz through security with a pat on the shoulder and an "isn't it awesome to be white?"


Why would we make this clear?

So you recruit someone else.


Is recruiting people of different ethnicities easy or even possible for them?


Building a really awesome wall doesn't do you much good if you only build it around three sides of your property. Moving all three walls to one side to make one big SUPER WALL is not an improvement.


No, but moving part of one of the walls where very few attacks come from to two of other other walls facing the enemy seems like a reasonable idea, especially if the enemy has difficulty attacking from the side of the previous wall.
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Re: Wil Wheaton on the TSA

Postby Belial » Wed Apr 20, 2011 8:19 pm UTC

Why would we make this clear?


How the hopping coke-addled christ were you planning to keep it secret?

Is recruiting people of different ethnicities easy or even possible for them?


Considering that most of the attackers since 9/11 have not been arab?

FUCKING PROBABLY.
No, but moving part of one of the walls where very few attacks come from to two of other other walls facing the enemy seems like a reasonable idea, especially if the enemy has difficulty attacking from the side of the previous wall


Terrorists aren't charging hordes. They're sneaky guys with bombs. Walking around the other side is pretty simple.
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Re: Wil Wheaton on the TSA

Postby sourmìlk » Wed Apr 20, 2011 8:23 pm UTC

Belial wrote:
Why would we make this clear?


How the hopping coke-addled christ were you planning to keep it secret?

By not telling people the statistics of who you pick out for extra screening.
Is recruiting people of different ethnicities easy or even possible for them?


Considering that most of the attackers since 9/11 have not been arab?

FUCKING PROBABLY.

They've also nearly always been Muslim.

No, but moving part of one of the walls where very few attacks come from to two of other other walls facing the enemy seems like a reasonable idea, especially if the enemy has difficulty attacking from the side of the previous wall


Terrorists aren't charging hordes. They're sneaky guys with bombs. Walking around the other side is pretty simple.

[/quote]

Not really. The side of, for example, "70 year-old asian ladies" or "young couples with a kid on the way" is a quite hostile metaphorical landscape.
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Re: Wil Wheaton on the TSA

Postby Belial » Wed Apr 20, 2011 8:26 pm UTC

By not telling people the statistics of who you pick out for extra screening.


And you figure it'll take, like, 4 minutes to get into the newspapers anyway?

They've also nearly always been Muslim.


Planning to have everyone eat bacon and draw a picture of muhhamed to prove themselves?
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Re: Wil Wheaton on the TSA

Postby Heisenberg » Wed Apr 20, 2011 8:30 pm UTC

Sweet, finally a market for my $25 million Mulsim Detector.

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Re: Wil Wheaton on the TSA

Postby Angua » Wed Apr 20, 2011 8:33 pm UTC

sourmìlk wrote:By not telling people the statistics of who you pick out for extra screening.


Warning - anecdata to follow: The funny thing about this, is people talk. I am a quarter Indian by descent, and my mother half Indian. Her father's family had changed their name to a 'white name' and became Christian when they moved to the Caribbean. However, she, her brother, and I always end with the 'random' searches - it can't be because of name, or origin (as Caribbean/British/American/Canadian depending on who exactly it is) - I'm guessing it's because of looks. We're not even Arab - just browner skin and black hair. I know someone who is a Muslim and from a Muslim country who is always stopped as well. His friends are often stopped.

Yes, racial profiling already exists to an extent, even if it is subconscious on the part of security and they're told not to do it. My point is that you aren't going to be able to keep it a secret from those who are actually being profiled (as those who aren't being profiled generally don't really notice as they aren't picked out).
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Re: Wil Wheaton on the TSA

Postby podbaydoor » Wed Apr 20, 2011 8:36 pm UTC

You know, abortion clinics don't screen for Christians when they allow people to enter. Even though clinic bombers and abortion doctor murderers have actually all been Christian. Do you know why? It's not because they've made the conclusion that Christian = more likely to be a terrorist. It's because they understand that they need to look for guns and bombs, not demographics. Which is what they do.
tenet |ˈtenit|
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sourmìlk
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Re: Wil Wheaton on the TSA

Postby sourmìlk » Wed Apr 20, 2011 8:39 pm UTC

Belial wrote:
By not telling people the statistics of who you pick out for extra screening.


And you figure it'll take, like, 4 minutes to get into the newspapers anyway?


Fine then: what percentage of white people are pulled aside for extra screening vs. what percentage of african-american females?

They've also nearly always been Muslim.


Planning to have everyone eat bacon and draw a picture of muhhamed to prove themselves?

[/quote]

you're missing my point: nobody recruited anybody since 9/11. It's always been limited to Muslims.

Angua wrote:My point is that you aren't going to be able to keep it a secret from those who are actually being profiled (as those who aren't being profiled generally don't really notice as they aren't picked out).

while interesting, it's still a bit too anecdotal for my tastes.

podbaydoor wrote:It's because they understand that they need to look for guns and bombs, not demographics. Which is what they do.


Assuming we could screen everybody sufficiently to make sure we found those then yes, obviously.
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Re: Wil Wheaton on the TSA

Postby Dauric » Wed Apr 20, 2011 8:44 pm UTC

sourmìlk wrote:
you're missing my point: nobody recruited anybody since 9/11. It's always been limited to Muslims.


Richard Reid (the Shoe bomber) was born a British citizen in Bromley, South London,[2] to Leslie Hughes, who was of white English descent, and Colvin Robin Reid, whose father was a Jamaican immigrant of African descent.

Colleen Renee LaRose (born June 5, 1963),[6] also known as JihadJane and Fatima LaRose, is an American citizen charged with terrorism-related crimes, including conspiracy to commit murder and providing material support to terrorists.[1][7] Most recently, she lived in the Philadelphia suburb of Pennsburg, in Montgomery County, Pennsylvania. She was born in Michigan and raised in Texas.

Muslim =/= Arab.
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Re: Wil Wheaton on the TSA

Postby netcrusher88 » Wed Apr 20, 2011 8:45 pm UTC

sourmìlk wrote:you're missing my point: nobody recruited anybody since 9/11. It's always been limited to Muslims.

You are still arguing from the delusion that people of any specific demographic are more likely to be terrorists. Yes, yes, I know, you're talking about a hypothetical - bullshit. You're cherry-picking a very small percentage of real-world events to support your opinion on the matter.

Never mind that, as pointed out repeatedly, were your delusion fact your idea to deal with it would be self-defeating.
Aikanaro wrote:
podbaydoor wrote:sourmilk, you've missed the part where the bulk of recent airplane scares didn't involve Arabs, right? They were Nigerian or Caucasian or something other than brown and turban'd. Are we now ethnic profiling white Republican males with guns because they keep forming militias and shooting abortion doctors? The Obama administration got raked over the coals for trying out that one.

I never heard about this! Link please? The thought of it fills me with glee....

Here's the ThinkProgress article. The report was in the works in 2008, it was just released in April 2009.

Nothing about profiling or anything ridiculous like that going on - the Department of Homeland Security noticed a rise in extremist right-wing violence and published a paper about it.
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Re: Wil Wheaton on the TSA

Postby sourmìlk » Wed Apr 20, 2011 8:49 pm UTC

netcrusher88 wrote:
sourmìlk wrote:you're missing my point: nobody recruited anybody since 9/11. It's always been limited to Muslims.

You are still arguing from the delusion that people of any specific demographic are more likely to be terrorists. Yes, yes, I know, you're talking about a hypothetical - bullshit. You're cherry-picking a very small percentage of real-world events to support your opinion on the matter.

I thought this was a hypothetical. What am I cherry picking from?

Never mind that, as pointed out repeatedly, were your delusion fact your idea to deal with it would be self-defeating.


Well that's what's being discussed. So far I haven't seen evidence that terrorist groups are able to get any meaningful number of outsiders.
Terry Pratchett wrote:The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it.


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