Birthers are morons

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Re: Birthers are morons

Postby sourmìlk » Tue Apr 19, 2011 10:41 am UTC

bentheimmigrant wrote:Not really. I mean, there's nothing at all in there that says you can't try to do anything about it.

Well yeah, because there was nothing anybody could do about it 3,000+ years ago when the book was written. My guess is that the fundamentalist interpretation of the text would be "if God says you should suffer then you are going to suffer."
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Re: Birthers are morons

Postby cephalopod9 » Tue Apr 19, 2011 10:57 am UTC

mosc wrote:hmm?
If I think about this issue more than about four consecutive minutes I lapse into a red haze.

No one talks about my state politics (there just doesn't seem to be much of an internet presence) unless it gets so stupid the entire country gets drawn into the spectacle. Like that whole mandatory-hassling-of-people-who-look-like-they-could-be-from-Mexico folks wanted to call an "immigration law". (seriously, not "you're allowed to ask" but "you have to ask about their immigration status if you suspect them". I still haven't learned what it had to do with the actual process of immigration)

And What I'm remember is that this is just a whole political ideology if not culture that I do not understand at all.
Look at the conversation in the OP
"You know this is a lie" "welll, didn't have proof"
"you know this is a lie" "there's controversy"

It terrifies me that there could be an audience that in any way responds positively to that.

Is it partisan? Is it just one mass of horrifically influential extremists? Does anyone on the leftwing do that kind of repetitive puttering out of failed ideas?
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Re: Birthers are morons

Postby JudeMorrigan » Tue Apr 19, 2011 2:08 pm UTC

Diadem wrote:This bill requires a signature of the attending doctor and hospital. But ehm, what about people who aren't born in a hospital? Like, ehm, tens of millions of people.

Also, note that if you were born in Hawaii and need to get a copy of your birth certificate, they don't offer any sort of options for what sort of certificate you get. (http://hawaii.gov/health/vital-records/pdf/birth.pdf) The copy of Obama's certificate you can find on the internets is what you get. This means that according to the yahoos who supported this bill, if you were born in Hawaii and had your original copy of your birth certificate lost, stolen, or destroyed, you're SOL. No running for president in Arizona you you.

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Re: Birthers are morons

Postby Dauric » Tue Apr 19, 2011 2:15 pm UTC

Arizona Governor Jan Brewer vetoes "Birther Bill"
At least -someone- in Az state government has a shred of sanity.
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Re: Birthers are morons

Postby Basement Tabby » Tue Apr 19, 2011 2:21 pm UTC

So does this mean no more US presidents born in log cabins?

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Re: Birthers are morons

Postby Spambot5546 » Tue Apr 19, 2011 2:33 pm UTC

Basement Tabby wrote:So does this mean no more US presidents born in log cabins?

Remember if they're born in a log cabin then they're probably white and therefore definitely American!
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Re: Birthers are morons

Postby mmmcannibalism » Tue Apr 19, 2011 3:22 pm UTC

Spambot5546 wrote:
Basement Tabby wrote:So does this mean no more US presidents born in log cabins?

Remember if they're born in a log cabin then they're probably white and therefore a real Amerrrican!
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Re: Birthers are morons

Postby scikidus » Tue Apr 19, 2011 4:10 pm UTC

So I hear that the Amish don't use hospitals to deliver children.

Does that mean that the Amish can't run for president in Arizona?
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Re: Birthers are morons

Postby Endless Mike » Tue Apr 19, 2011 4:16 pm UTC

The law was vetoed, so they can. The final law that ended up on Brewer's desk was amended a bit to allow various additional forms of proof. Apparently a bris certificate would have been considered legal, despite having no legal standing whatsoever.

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Re: Birthers are morons

Postby mosc » Tue Apr 19, 2011 4:45 pm UTC

Dauric wrote:Arizona Governor Jan Brewer vetoes "Birther Bill"
At least -someone- in Az state government has a shred of sanity.

I didn't realize the bill also contained requirements for circumcision records! I mean, doesn't that ban women from running for president? Women like... Arizona Governor Jan Brewer? ;)
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Re: Birthers are morons

Postby podbaydoor » Tue Apr 19, 2011 4:45 pm UTC

There is female circumcision...a very ugly subject.
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Re: Birthers are morons

Postby Angua » Tue Apr 19, 2011 4:50 pm UTC

mosc wrote:
Dauric wrote:Arizona Governor Jan Brewer vetoes "Birther Bill"
At least -someone- in Az state government has a shred of sanity.

I didn't realize the bill also contained requirements for circumcision records! I mean, doesn't that ban women from running for president? Women like... Arizona Governor Jan Brewer? ;)

Also bans uncircumcised men - I realise that they are more rare in the US than elsewhere, but they must exist?
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Re: Birthers are morons

Postby Dauric » Tue Apr 19, 2011 4:58 pm UTC

Angua wrote:
mosc wrote:
Dauric wrote:Arizona Governor Jan Brewer vetoes "Birther Bill"
At least -someone- in Az state government has a shred of sanity.

I didn't realize the bill also contained requirements for circumcision records! I mean, doesn't that ban women from running for president? Women like... Arizona Governor Jan Brewer? ;)

Also bans uncircumcised men - I realise that they are more rare in the US than elsewhere, but they must exist?


From the article
If candidates didn't have a copy of their birth certificates, they could meet the requirement by providing baptismal or circumcision certificates, hospital birth records and other documents.


It's not a required document, but one of those documents that may serve in the stead of a birth certificate if one is not available.
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Re: Birthers are morons

Postby Роберт » Tue Apr 19, 2011 4:59 pm UTC

The certificates were among the documents a candidate could have submitted under the bill in place of a birth certificate.

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Re: Birthers are morons

Postby mmmcannibalism » Tue Apr 19, 2011 5:02 pm UTC

Since it appears the bill is dead, does anyone else thing we(if your American) just need to amend that natural born citizen clause out?
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Re: Birthers are morons

Postby mosc » Tue Apr 19, 2011 5:39 pm UTC

no, I think there's always a difference and the only place where it matters is on a presidential ballet.
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Re: Birthers are morons

Postby kiklion » Tue Apr 19, 2011 5:41 pm UTC

mmmcannibalism wrote:Since it appears the bill is dead, does anyone else thing we(if your American) just need to amend that natural born citizen clause out?


It would be dangerous to amend it out. Else what do we have to stop clones from running for office?

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Re: Birthers are morons

Postby bentheimmigrant » Tue Apr 19, 2011 5:44 pm UTC

mosc wrote:presidential ballet.



hehehe
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Re: Birthers are morons

Postby podbaydoor » Tue Apr 19, 2011 5:58 pm UTC

McCain in tights and toe slippers. Just...no.
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Re: Birthers are morons

Postby bentheimmigrant » Tue Apr 19, 2011 6:02 pm UTC

I would pay to see a presidential debate that was actually a dance competition.
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Re: Birthers are morons

Postby Garm » Tue Apr 19, 2011 6:04 pm UTC

What's wrong with old dudes in tutus?

I can just see Michelle Bachmann doing the dance of the Farm Subsidy Fairy. Doot doot doot doot dooo dooo dooo dooo doot doot doot doot dooo dootdootdootdoot doooooo
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Re: Birthers are morons

Postby Endless Mike » Tue Apr 19, 2011 6:15 pm UTC

mmmcannibalism wrote:Since it appears the bill is dead, does anyone else thing we(if your American) just need to amend that natural born citizen clause out?

Absolutely not. What if someone born outside the US but lived their entire life here became president? That would be pandemonium!

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Re: Birthers are morons

Postby mosc » Tue Apr 19, 2011 6:27 pm UTC

Endless Mike wrote:
mmmcannibalism wrote:Since it appears the bill is dead, does anyone else thing we(if your American) just need to amend that natural born citizen clause out?

Absolutely not. What if someone born outside the US but lived their entire life here became president? That would be pandemonium!

Their whole lives is different from the minimum required time to obtain US citizenship.
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Re: Birthers are morons

Postby savanik » Tue Apr 19, 2011 7:07 pm UTC

bentheimmigrant wrote:I would pay to see a presidential debate that was actually a dance competition.


Hmmm... Like 'West Wing Story'?

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Re: Birthers are morons

Postby hanecter » Tue Apr 19, 2011 7:18 pm UTC

I've been under the impression that subverting God's will was something to be avoided...

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Re: Birthers are morons

Postby Dauric » Tue Apr 19, 2011 7:22 pm UTC

hanecter wrote:I've been under the impression that subverting God's will was something to be avoided...



Presidential Ballet is subverting God's will? I mean it's certainly odd, but if we're going to have political theater I don't think decent choreography is too much to ask.

... I think we have some context-fail here.
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Re: Birthers are morons

Postby hanecter » Tue Apr 19, 2011 7:28 pm UTC

xD
No, I think that God would definitely want a presidential ballet.

In all seriousness, I missed the second page that popped up overnight, AND I accidentally clicked reply instead of quote. I was responding to
Not really. I mean, there's nothing at all in there that says you can't try to do anything about it.


Oops. :lol:

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Re: Birthers are morons

Postby elfcharm » Tue Apr 19, 2011 7:49 pm UTC

I don't think birthers are morons really, I just think they, in the quiet moments before going to sleep, are terrified to suspect they have no idea what's going on.

They live in an increasingly complex world about which they will not or cannot get educated. They tried once or twice, that's what makes it scary. They went to a source of information they thought could be trusted, one of the republican propaganda sites, or a respected friend, and suddenly the world made sense. Not to me, but to them, because they could invalidate all they didn't understand, and emotionally attack the things they could.

The beauty of things like the birther issue, or bush blew up the twin towers, is that it reduces the problems terrifying you into simple black and white caricatures of the world, and let you get your fear-driven anger out.

I do pity these people, and I recognize the phenomenon as a symbol of the dangers of propaganda in our age, but I try not to dismiss them. (I do try, REALLY hard, even though I always fail)


With any luck, trump's push into the birther issue is a gambit, the end of which will have him declaring Obama an american citizen (preserving his birther base and making him acceptable to independents), and he'll lead these people away from this thing.


Till then I'll just wonder at which things I've been misled to believe.



(sorry if I broke the fun)

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Re: Birthers are morons

Postby Triangle_Man » Tue Apr 19, 2011 7:53 pm UTC

I hear so much conflicting stories and information from so many people with so many different ideas that I don't know what to believe anymore. Still, it's kind of fun hearing all of the different arguments and wondering about the strengths and flaws of all of them.

I'd rather be confused all the time than absolutely certain about life.
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Re: Birthers are morons

Postby jakovasaur » Tue Apr 19, 2011 8:00 pm UTC

elfcharm wrote:I don't think birthers are morons really, I just think they, in the quiet moments before going to sleep, are terrified to suspect they have no idea what's going on.

They live in an increasingly complex world about which they will not or cannot get educated. They tried once or twice, that's what makes it scary. They went to a source of information they thought could be trusted, one of the republican propaganda sites, or a respected friend, and suddenly the world made sense. Not to me, but to them, because they could invalidate all they didn't understand, and emotionally attack the things they could.

The beauty of things like the birther issue, or bush blew up the twin towers, is that it reduces the problems terrifying you into simple black and white caricatures of the world, and let you get your fear-driven anger out.

I do pity these people, and I recognize the phenomenon as a symbol of the dangers of propaganda in our age, but I try not to dismiss them. (I do try, REALLY hard, even though I always fail)


With any luck, trump's push into the birther issue is a gambit, the end of which will have him declaring Obama an american citizen (preserving his birther base and making him acceptable to independents), and he'll lead these people away from this thing.


Till then I'll just wonder at which things I've been misled to believe.



(sorry if I broke the fun)

The irony of this post is astounding. I imagine you typing this up just before you lay your head on your pillow, and then you drift off into a dreamless sleep, content in your knowledge that you've got it all figured out.

Also, this poll suggests that Tea Partiers are more educated than the average American.

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Re: Birthers are morons

Postby elfcharm » Tue Apr 19, 2011 8:36 pm UTC

The irony of this post is astounding. I imagine you typing this up just before you lay your head on your pillow, and then you drift off into a dreamless sleep, content in your knowledge that you've got it all figured out.

Also, this poll suggests that Tea Partiers are more educated than the average American.


Oh, I'm sorry if you got the impression I think I know everything, I'm just not scared and I am still curious.

Also, though your quoted material is about the tea party, as opposed to birthers, I did love this quote.
“I just feel he’s getting away from what America is,” said Kathy Mayhugh, 67, a retired medical transcriber in Jacksonville. “He’s a socialist. And to tell you the truth, I think he’s a Muslim and trying to head us in that direction, I don’t care what he says. He’s been in office over a year and can’t find a church to go to. That doesn’t say much for him.”

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Re: Birthers are morons

Postby Dauric » Tue Apr 19, 2011 8:42 pm UTC

jakovasaur wrote:The irony of this post is astounding. I imagine you typing this up just before you lay your head on your pillow, and then you drift off into a dreamless sleep, content in your knowledge that you've got it all figured out.

Also, this poll suggests that Tea Partiers are more educated than the average American.


From that article
The 18 percent of Americans who identify themselves as Tea Party supporters tend to be Republican, white, male, married and older than 45.


More educated does not mean that they have a handle on modern life. My bosses are smart people, very well educated, and yet they don't really have a grasp of the technology that we use in the office. Most technophiles that have a handle on the modern pace of technological innovation are under 30 (IE: having grown up with the Internet, and being accustomed to constant technological upgrades). I mean the iPad is around 1 year old and the 'tablet' concept has already become ubiquitous enough that major networks and cable providers are offering content and content-organization software specifically for the format. If you grew up in the ancient days of the 60's, 70's or even the 80's before -constant- technology upgrades were a daily part of life, then the post millennium reality is at the very least unnerving.

Also culture and society is changing faster in response to technology. The uprisings in the Middle East are just one of the more prominent manifestations of how "Social Media" has changed, but for some people it's the little things like e-mail or Facebook that are more daily reminders that the world isn't what they thought it would be... less then ten years ago even. Facebook is 7 years old and it's a staple of TV news broadcasts to offer more information on their Facebook pages. If you started watching news with Dan Rather, Peter Jennings, Robert MacNeil, and that era of journalists where what you got in the broadcast what what you got in the broadcast the whole 'Go to our web site for more information', as well as the variety and depth of linked information is kind of a scary concept if your world consisted of TV and dead-tree newspaper reports.
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Re: Birthers are morons

Postby oxoiron » Tue Apr 19, 2011 9:17 pm UTC

mosc wrote:What I find particularly amusing about Arizona being the ones stupid enough to propose this is that the previous republican candidate for pres, Mr. McCain, was actually born in Panama at the US military base.
Oh, those wacky Arizonans and their history of producing presidential candidates not born in the U.S.
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Re: Birthers are morons

Postby jules.LT » Wed Apr 20, 2011 3:19 pm UTC

Dauric wrote:From that article
The 18 percent of Americans who identify themselves as Tea Party supporters tend to be Republican, white, male, married and older than 45.

More educated does not mean that they have a handle on modern life.

More importantly, more educated overall doesn't mean more educated for their age range...
Statistics need to be adjusted to account for those kinds of factors before you make headlines out of them.
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Re: Birthers are morons

Postby Jave D » Mon Apr 25, 2011 8:58 pm UTC

jakovasaur wrote:
elfcharm wrote:I don't think birthers are morons really, I just think they, in the quiet moments before going to sleep, are terrified to suspect they have no idea what's going on.

They live in an increasingly complex world about which they will not or cannot get educated. They tried once or twice, that's what makes it scary. They went to a source of information they thought could be trusted, one of the republican propaganda sites, or a respected friend, and suddenly the world made sense. Not to me, but to them, because they could invalidate all they didn't understand, and emotionally attack the things they could.

The beauty of things like the birther issue, or bush blew up the twin towers, is that it reduces the problems terrifying you into simple black and white caricatures of the world, and let you get your fear-driven anger out.

I do pity these people, and I recognize the phenomenon as a symbol of the dangers of propaganda in our age, but I try not to dismiss them. (I do try, REALLY hard, even though I always fail)


With any luck, trump's push into the birther issue is a gambit, the end of which will have him declaring Obama an american citizen (preserving his birther base and making him acceptable to independents), and he'll lead these people away from this thing.


Till then I'll just wonder at which things I've been misled to believe.



(sorry if I broke the fun)

The irony of this post is astounding. I imagine you typing this up just before you lay your head on your pillow, and then you drift off into a dreamless sleep, content in your knowledge that you've got it all figured out.

Also, this poll suggests that Tea Partiers are more educated than the average American.


If I were to blindly accept said suggestion, I would have to say that it only makes Tea Partiers unforgivably incompetent, stupid, and immoral. It's one thing to lack information or education and simply not be able to form non-racist, non-idiotic, and non-delusional opinions about the world around oneself, and another thing entirely to possess all the means, and yet cling like a frightened 7 year old still sucking at the teat of ignorance, ill-concealed xenophobia and racism.

What irony were you referring to? or was that just a cute lead-in to your staunch defense of the maligned educational backgrounds of Tea Partiers?

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Re: Birthers are morons

Postby addams » Tue Apr 26, 2011 5:21 am UTC

elfcharm wrote:I don't think birthers are morons really, I just think they, in the quiet moments before going to sleep, are terrified to suspect they have no idea what's going on.
Yes That does explain some of the lunacy.

They live in an increasingly complex world about which they will not or cannot get educated. They tried once or twice, that's what makes it scary. Yep.

They went to a source of information they thought could be trusted, one of the republican propaganda sites, or a respected friend, and suddenly the world made sense. It is nice for people to accept a simple answer. It is nice to have a sense of certainty. We sing lullabies to allow ourselves and others to have Peace and certainty. I think that it is sweet that you typed about their moments before sleep. These are important moment for humans.

Not to me, but to them, because they could invalidate all they didn't understand, and emotionally attack the things they could. The dim witted dolts are mean and dangerous. You have illuminated the problem. These people have been pushed backwards in their spiritual and emotional development.

The beauty of things like the birther issue, or bush blew up the twin towers, is that it reduces the problems terrifying you into simple black and white caricatures of the world, and let you get your fear-driven anger out. Yep. You seem to understand the problem.

I do pity these people, and I recognize the phenomenon as a symbol of the dangers of propaganda in our age, but I try not to dismiss them. Right, again. You are a thoughtful person.
(I do try, REALLY hard, even though I always fail) You are funny. I do not always fail. When, I am getting paid I try harder.


With any luck, trump's push into the birther issue is a gambit, the end of which will have him declaring Obama an american citizen (preserving his birther base and making him acceptable to independents), and he'll lead these people away from this thing.


Till then I'll just wonder at which things I've been misled to believe.
Lots. You and me and everyone else has been lied to. There is one standard that is safer than many other standards. It is the standard of Love and Compassion. The big important lies whither in the light of Love and Compassion. If, you make a mistake based on human kindness. Then, you will forgive yourself. And, your mistake is just a mistake to other Loving Compassionate persons. The birthers have been brain -not washed. The minds of the people are dirty. There are boogie men in there.



(sorry if I broke the fun)


Not for me. You did not break the fun for me. I liked your post. I went back and interjected into it. Your post was good.
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cephalopod9
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Re: Birthers are morons

Postby cephalopod9 » Tue Apr 26, 2011 8:32 am UTC

See, I do understand being scared, and holding to beliefs over reason.
What I don't understand is how it became something to hold up as credibility and political clout.
I mean, if the tehpuhrty/extreme right that has way too much influence was about "we have the answers, and we'll make things ok again" that would be one thing, but it's like some kind of contest to seem the most uninformed and terrified.
jules.lt wrote:
Dauric wrote:From that article
The 18 percent of Americans who identify themselves as Tea Party supporters tend to be Republican, white, male, married and older than 45.

More educated does not mean that they have a handle on modern life.

More importantly, more educated overall doesn't mean more educated for their age range...
Or (more) educated in politics, economics, sociology, history, causality, etc.
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sourmìlk
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Re: Birthers are morons

Postby sourmìlk » Tue Apr 26, 2011 8:46 am UTC

cephalopod9 wrote:See, I do understand being scared, and holding to beliefs over reason.
What I don't understand is how it became something to hold up as credibility and political clout.
I mean, if the tehpuhrty/extreme right that has way too much influence was about "we have the answers, and we'll make things ok again" that would be one thing, but it's like some kind of contest to seem the most uninformed and terrified.


I think this is just a manifestation of the normal phenomenon of trying to out-(insert group here) your peers. Hipsters will try to like more obscure music tan their fellow hipsters, WoW players strive to have better gear than their peers, etc. It just seems particularly odd in this case because their ideology is based on a lack of information and irrational fear.
Terry Pratchett wrote:The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it.

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Plasma Man
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Re: Birthers are morons

Postby Plasma Man » Tue Apr 26, 2011 8:57 am UTC

There's also the factor that politics embraces that attitude that whatever your party believes is right, and whatever the other party believes is wrong. This is fine for a lot of things, because a lot of issues are ones where there are legitimate cases for more than one point of view. Unfortunately, it means that when one party asserts something that is provably factually wrong, the other party saying that they're wrong doesn't make much impact. And supporters of the party are so used to accepting that the party is correct they lack the inclination to critically examine the party's claims.

Reading that back, it's frighteningly reminiscent of 1984.
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sourmìlk
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Re: Birthers are morons

Postby sourmìlk » Tue Apr 26, 2011 9:03 am UTC

Plasma Man wrote:There's also the factor that politics embraces that attitude that whatever your party believes is right, and whatever the other party believes is wrong. This is fine for a lot of things, because a lot of issues are ones where there are legitimate cases for more than one point of view. Unfortunately, it means that when one party asserts something that is provably factually wrong, the other party saying that they're wrong doesn't make much impact. And supporters of the party are so used to accepting that the party is correct they lack the inclination to critically examine the party's claims.

Reading that back, it's frighteningly reminiscent of 1984.


I think you should read my dad's blog post which covers these kinds of people. The American Independent party is basically the tea party. You'll see some interesting parallels between their speech and newspeak:

E. Scott Menter wrote:I was quite interested to learn that the AIP considers itself "the party of ordered liberty in a nation under God." Really, you have to admire a phrase like "ordered liberty", which, if it doesn't appear in an Orwell novel, definitely ought to. The statement goes on to profess a belief in "strict adherence to written law," and looks forward to the day when we will all be "[f]reed from the lawless oppression of Liberal rule". I'm pretty sure "lawless oppression" comes from the same dictionary as "ordered liberty".
Terry Pratchett wrote:The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it.


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