IMF Chief arrested in New York for attempted rape

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IMF Chief arrested in New York for attempted rape

Postby Gellert1984 » Mon May 16, 2011 12:08 pm UTC

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-13408002
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/13407908

Spoiler:
In a New York minute French politics changed. Dominique Strauss-Kahn was the front-runner to be the next French president, although he had not yet declared himself a candidate. His high-profile American lawyer said he "denies all the charges against him". But almost certainly he is politically dead.

It would take a rapid unravelling of the maid's accusation of sexual assault for him to have a future in French politics. As the hours go by old stories are being dusted down and retold about a man who is openly called in France the "great seducer".

In the past his reputation has not harmed him. French voters have been far less troubled by infidelities or the complexities of a leader's personal life. Mr Strauss-Kahn was able to survive an affair with a subordinate working as an IMF economist in 2008. He wrote to IMF staff and said "while this incident constituted an error in judgment on my part, for which I take full responsibility, I firmly believe that I have not abused my position". In France the affair caused scarcely a ripple.

So today friends and colleagues said that, even though "he had an interest in women", using violence would have been completely out of character. "This does not resemble the man I know," said former Socialist Party boss Francois Hollande. His wife, too, defended him.

Others have suggested he is a victim of some kind of international conspiracy. One of his allies said: "Everyone knows that his weakness is seducing women. That's how they got to him." The woman - a councillor - said the aim was to "decapitate the IMF".

But there were far more voices like those of lawmaker Bernard Debre who said: "It's humiliating for the IMF and humiliating for our country."

So who benefits from his downfall?

Obviously President Nicolas Sarkozy. It will not boost his poll ratings, but he will face candidates with nothing like the standing of Mr Strauss-Kahn. The head of the IMF was a heavyweight, a big beast who has been at the heart of international efforts to prevent a global recession. He exuded experience and competence.

Mr Sarkozy will be more confident he can pick off the other Socialist candidates. Francois Hollande, for instance, has no experience as a minister. Others like Martine Aubry and Segolene Royal may well damage themselves fighting each other.

From the right Marine Le Pen will try and exploit all this. Mr Strauss-Kahn, in her view, represents the elite that she maintains has lost touch with ordinary French working people. He was the classic insider - a corporate lawyer who served as finance minister and prepared France to give up the franc for the euro. She also reminded voters that she was a female leader when she said: "The truth, and everyone knows it, is that Paris has buzzed for months if not years in the political and journalistic milieu about the rather pathological relationship that Mr Strauss-Kahn maintains toward women."

Dominique Strauss-Kahn played a pivotal role in the eurozone crisis. He had pushed Europe to tackle its debts. He was also intensely committed to saving the euro. He was both courted and heeded by major European leaders, particularly the Germans, who wanted strong IMF involvement in Europe's bail-outs.

Some say the IMF's commitments may change. "The chances are the successor won't be a European, and will want to rebalance the IMF's priorities away from its massive commitment in Europe," said Jean Pisani-Ferry, director of the Bruegel economic think-tank.

French politics have been thrown wide open and for Europe's officials - struggling with an unrelenting debt crisis - they have a less certain partner in the IMF.


It's just been mentioned on the radio that he's claiming to have been having lunch with his daughter 30 mins before the attack was alleged to have taken place.

I find it hard to believe the charges against this guy. The maid claims he was in the shower when she entered the room, why'd she stay? assuming she did'nt hear the shower for whatever reason, why did she let him get between her and the door? While a mobile phone was found at the scene, the guy has five.

It also strikes me that this is the second major figure on the international stage thats been accused of rape and sexual assault.

Edited the title for clarity and fair warning. -Hawk
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Re: IMF Chief arrested in New York

Postby Hawknc » Mon May 16, 2011 12:17 pm UTC

Not mentioned in that article is that his goddaughter is now also coming forward with claims of sexual assault from 2002, for which she was pressured not to press charges. Innocent until proven guilty, of course, but I can only assume that NYC cops wouldn't arrest the chief of the IMF without a goddamn airtight case.

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Re: IMF Chief arrested in New York

Postby Zamfir » Mon May 16, 2011 12:21 pm UTC

There are some details that add plausibility to the story. The maid was apparently bruised, and her story overall believable enough that the hotel staff and police acted quickly. And when the police arrived Straus-Kahn had left the hotel in hurry to catch the first flight out of the country, leaving his phone and some luggage behind. So it is fishy overall.

They're looking for forensic evidence now, things like semen traces, bruises on his body or matieral under his finger nails. I suppose they will have some results soon enough to make the story more or less plausible.

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Re: IMF Chief arrested in New York

Postby (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻ » Mon May 16, 2011 12:25 pm UTC

Gellert1984 wrote:It's just been mentioned on the radio that he's claiming to have been having lunch with his daughter 30 mins before the attack was alleged to have taken place.

I find it hard to believe the charges against this guy. The maid claims he was in the shower when she entered the room, why'd she stay? assuming she did'nt hear the shower for whatever reason, why did she let him get between her and the door? While a mobile phone was found at the scene, the guy has five.

It also strikes me that this is the second major figure on the international stage thats been accused of rape and sexual assault.


Congratulations, OP, for being the first person to say something like, "why would the woman even be there?" in the thread about an alleged attempted rape.
Good on you. I really thought I was going to have to wait around for someone to say, "TWO men accused of being rapists? That's just too many for this to be a coincidence, right?" Rape is, after all, considerably more rare than this.

Oh wait no it isn't.

Why, for goodness' sake, do women just keep going around men when they are clearly dangerous?
Look at this comment by one of his 'allies':
"Everyone knows that his weakness is seducing women. That's how they got to him."
Women really ought to be more careful around him. His weakness is seduction.
Or, y'know, rape of his subordinates.

I find it hard to believe that people are still really content to victim-blame as though rape doesn't happen every couple of minutes.
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Re: IMF Chief arrested in New York

Postby jules.LT » Mon May 16, 2011 12:26 pm UTC

I so f*cking hope that it quickly turns out to be untrue.
He was our best chance at getting a good president. :( :x :cry:
He was known for being more than a womanizer, to put it mildly, but not for violent behaviour.
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Re: IMF Chief arrested in New York

Postby Eowiel » Mon May 16, 2011 12:27 pm UTC

Could be true ofcourse, but it strangely coincides with the fact that he has, according to most of the recent polls, become the most probable winner of the French Presidential election in 2012.

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Re: IMF Chief arrested in New York

Postby Belial » Mon May 16, 2011 12:29 pm UTC

Here's the experience of reading this thread.

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Re: IMF Chief arrested in New York

Postby jules.LT » Mon May 16, 2011 12:29 pm UTC

And was leading the IMF through major changes in its policies...
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Re: IMF Chief arrested in New York

Postby Azrael » Mon May 16, 2011 12:32 pm UTC

Eowiel wrote:Could be true ofcourse, but it strangely coincides with the fact that he has, according to most of the recent polls, become the most probable winner of the French Presidential election in 2012.

Because presidential figures never behave in sexually inappropriate ways?

For fuck's sake, I don't even have to go back to Clinton.

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Re: IMF Chief arrested in New York

Postby Hawknc » Mon May 16, 2011 12:35 pm UTC

jules.lt wrote:He was known for being more than a womanizer, to put it mildly, but not for violent behaviour.

This strikes me as an odd thing to say. Of course he wasn't known for violent behaviour. If he was known for it, he'd likely be in jail for it. I suspect this and the other case I linked to earlier won't be the only allegations of assault coming to light in the near future.

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Re: IMF Chief arrested in New York for attempted rape

Postby (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻ » Mon May 16, 2011 12:36 pm UTC

Rape is only violent if there are bruises afterward, anyway.
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Re: IMF Chief arrested in New York for attempted rape

Postby jules.LT » Mon May 16, 2011 12:37 pm UTC

It's just that he was a powerful man who was well-known for his weakness as regards women, and the best and most obvious way to bring him down would be to bring allegations of rape against him.
Easy scenario: send in the maid after he orders a hooker.

Not saying that it can't be a genuine attempted rape, but there's still doubt.

Edit: the earlier case you mentioned was common knowledge, and there are no other common-knowledge cases.
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Re: IMF Chief arrested in New York for attempted rape

Postby Hawknc » Mon May 16, 2011 12:41 pm UTC

...I...what? What does hiring a prostitute have to do with the maid? Is this some perverted version of Cluedo?

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Re: IMF Chief arrested in New York for attempted rape

Postby Belial » Mon May 16, 2011 12:41 pm UTC

jules.lt wrote:Easy scenario: send in the maid after he orders a hooker.


You realize that the latter is also a crime in NYC. If they really wanted to bring him down, couldn't they have just gone with that?

Also, you realize that sexually assaulting a hooker would still be sexual assault, yeah?
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Re: IMF Chief arrested in New York for attempted rape

Postby Azrael » Mon May 16, 2011 12:41 pm UTC

jules.lt wrote:Easy scenario: send in the maid after he orders a hooker.

'Cause you can't rape a hooker?

You're in a hole. With a shovel. Might I suggest you stop digging?

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Re: IMF Chief arrested in New York

Postby Kulantan » Mon May 16, 2011 12:44 pm UTC

If you honestly think that some conspiricay setting the whole thing up to look like he raped the maid (with the fucking subtext that the maid was a part of the whole thing) and his god-daughter is more likely that him being part of the 5% of the male population that we know are rapists, I will enthusiastically educate you about Occam's Razor.

Edited for maybe take a deep breath before posting next time. -Hawk
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Re: IMF Chief arrested in New York for attempted rape

Postby (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻ » Mon May 16, 2011 12:44 pm UTC

Az, Belial now you're not even talking sense. You can do whatever you want to a hooker as long as you pay them accordingly, like everyone else.


Rape isn't a particularly damning crime anyway. I wish it were, but it kind of isn't. People let others get away with it prettymuch all the time. INcluding politicians, (coughSenatorEnsigncough) and the clergy, and people in Hollywood.
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Re: IMF Chief arrested in New York for attempted rape

Postby jules.LT » Mon May 16, 2011 12:46 pm UTC

Belial wrote:
jules.lt wrote:Easy scenario: send in the maid after he orders a hooker.


You realize that the latter is also a crime in NYC. If they really wanted to bring him down, couldn't they have just gone with that?

Also, you realize that sexually assaulting a hooker would still be sexual assault, yeah?

Being charged with hiring a hooker in NYC wouldn't have hurt his chances at presidency in France at all.
And the standard of what would be sexual "assault" towards a hooker is significantly higher than towards a maid.
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Re: IMF Chief arrested in New York for attempted rape

Postby Azrael » Mon May 16, 2011 12:47 pm UTC

You're still digging, jules.

No, the standard doesn't change. Consent is the standard. End of story.

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Re: IMF Chief arrested in New York for attempted rape

Postby (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻ » Mon May 16, 2011 12:48 pm UTC

Heh. I used to be a hotel maid.
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Re: IMF Chief arrested in New York

Postby jules.LT » Mon May 16, 2011 12:53 pm UTC

Kulantan wrote:LISTEN UP YOU SUBHUMAN FUCKS. If you honestly think that some conspiricay setting the whole thing up to look like he raped the maid (with the fucking subtext that the maid was a part of the whole thing) and his god-daughter is more likely that him being part of the 5% of the male population that we know are rapists, I will fucking find you and slice you into tiny slivers with Occam's Razor.

I actually pointed out a simple scenario where the maid doesn't even need to be aware of the trap.
I'm not saying it definitely is a trap, I'm leaving the possibility open. The previous incident makes both possibilities likelier.

@Azrael: it seems natural to assume consent from the hooker, doesn't it?
The standard would be continuing despite protestations rather than just starting.
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Re: IMF Chief arrested in New York for attempted rape

Postby Izawwlgood » Mon May 16, 2011 12:55 pm UTC

jules.lt wrote:@Azrael: it seems natural to assume consent from the hooker, doesn't it?

Guh, what?! NO, no, no. It's this sort of logic that tells women they were asking for it for wearing a short skirt.
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Re: IMF Chief arrested in New York for attempted rape

Postby (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻ » Mon May 16, 2011 12:56 pm UTC

Hi.

Can we stop talking about the imaginary hooker? There is no hooker in this story.
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Re: IMF Chief arrested in New York for attempted rape

Postby Kulantan » Mon May 16, 2011 12:57 pm UTC

jules.lt wrote:I actually pointed out a simple scenario where the maid doesn't even need to be aware of the trap.
I'm not saying it definitely is a trap, I'm leaving the possibility open. The previous incident makes both possibilities likelier.

And what are the relative likelihoods. 'Cause one is looking like a "moon landing hoax" style craziness without any evidential backing.
jules.lt wrote:@Azrael: it seems natural to assume consent from the hooker, doesn't it?

No. Consent always matters and anything that goes against it without a prearranged situation with a safe word is rape.

Also, as always, what Meaux said.
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Re: IMF Chief arrested in New York for attempted rape

Postby (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻ » Mon May 16, 2011 12:58 pm UTC

The final Launch of Endeavor is going on right now and some of you are doing this instead.
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Re: IMF Chief arrested in New York for attempted rape

Postby Hawknc » Mon May 16, 2011 1:01 pm UTC

Meaux_Pas wrote:Hi.

Can we stop talking about the imaginary hooker? There is no hooker in this story.

As speaketh the Meaux, so shall it be done.

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Re: IMF Chief arrested in New York

Postby Eowiel » Mon May 16, 2011 1:03 pm UTC

Kulantan wrote:LISTEN UP YOU SUBHUMAN FUCKS. If you honestly think that some conspiricay setting the whole thing up to look like he raped the maid (with the fucking subtext that the maid was a part of the whole thing) and his god-daughter is more likely that him being part of the 5% of the male population that we know are rapists, I will fucking find you and slice you into tiny slivers with Occam's Razor.



There is a reason why Occam's Razor isn't used for the determination whether someone is guilty of a crime. The fact you think it's a good method to do so is quite disturbing. The whole idea behind "innocent until proven guilty" is to not convict anyone just because it is "probable" he or she committed a crime.

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Re: IMF Chief arrested in New York

Postby jakovasaur » Mon May 16, 2011 1:08 pm UTC

Eowiel wrote:
Kulantan wrote:LISTEN UP YOU SUBHUMAN FUCKS. If you honestly think that some conspiricay setting the whole thing up to look like he raped the maid (with the fucking subtext that the maid was a part of the whole thing) and his god-daughter is more likely that him being part of the 5% of the male population that we know are rapists, I will fucking find you and slice you into tiny slivers with Occam's Razor.



There is a reason why Occam's Razor isn't used for the determination whether someone is guilty of a crime. The fact you think it's a good method to do so is quite disturbing. The whole idea behind "innocent until proven guilty" is to not convict anyone just because it is "probable" he or she committed a crime.

Good thing this is a message board and not a courtroom then, huh?

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Re: IMF Chief arrested in New York for attempted rape

Postby Red Hal » Mon May 16, 2011 1:13 pm UTC

It really is a pointless exercise speculating on this. Either he did do it or he didn't. If he didn't, and it's proven he didn't (by which I mean there is compelling evidence that he didn't, not just an absence of evidence that he did), then we can talk about other scenarios, but right now guess what's more likely on balance of probabilities?

I'm going to go with keep my counsel and wait to see what happens.
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Re: IMF Chief arrested in New York for attempted rape

Postby Oregonaut » Mon May 16, 2011 1:17 pm UTC

Red Hal wrote:It really is a pointless exercise speculating on this. Either he did do it or he didn't. If he didn't, and it's proven he didn't (by which I mean there is compelling evidence that he didn't, not just an absence of evidence that he did), then we can talk about other scenarios, but right now guess what's more likely on balance of probabilities?

I'm going to go with keep my counsel and wait to see what happens.

I'm wondering if the maid has been given paid leave.
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Re: IMF Chief arrested in New York for attempted rape

Postby Kulantan » Mon May 16, 2011 1:17 pm UTC

Eowiel wrote:There is a reason why Occam's Razor isn't used for the determination whether someone is guilty of a crime. The fact you think it's a good method to do so is quite disturbing. The whole idea behind "innocent until proven guilty" is to not convict anyone just because it is "probable" he or she committed a crime.

Heh, more over I was only speaking to one defence (the one of a conspiracy). If there was evidence brought forward to that effect then yeah I'd believe it. But to bring it up like it is a serious option when there is no evidence for it is a deeply wrong thing to do.

Innocent till proven guilt, but only the actual evidence gets to speak. Not complete fabrications that smokescreen the actual evidence and needlessly tar people.

Also this:
Hawknc wrote:Innocent until proven guilty, of course, but I can only assume that NYC cops wouldn't arrest the chief of the IMF without a goddamn airtight case.
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Re: IMF Chief arrested in New York for attempted rape

Postby Zamfir » Mon May 16, 2011 1:18 pm UTC

I think the Clearstream affair has some relevance here. Just a few years ago, people (probably including important politicians and business leaders) had set up a reasonably elaborate trail of evidence to implicate other politicians in a large bribery scandal, including Sarkozy and I think even Strauss-Kahn. Of course, the other theory is that they were guilty, but that still leaves a big conspiracy, now on their side to get out under it and implicate Villepin etc. for setting them up.

In either case, there is a real, recent precedent of an elaborate setup to implicate French politicians in a large crime. This case would be another, even more elaborate level of setup, and I personally find that implausible. But it is not moon-lading levels of implausible.

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Re: IMF Chief arrested in New York for attempted rape

Postby jules.LT » Mon May 16, 2011 1:23 pm UTC

Zamfir wrote:In either case, there is a real, recent precedent of an elaborate setup to implicate French politicians in a large crime. This case would be another, even more elaborate level of setup, and I personally find that implausible. But it is not moon-lading levels of implausible.


Precisely my point, thank you.

@Kulantan: btw, your last few words slipped in before closing the other subject are annoying. And already answered in what I said before.
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Re: IMF Chief arrested in New York

Postby Eowiel » Mon May 16, 2011 1:26 pm UTC

jakovasaur wrote:Good thing this is a message board and not a courtroom then, huh?


So because this isn't a courtroom I should just let myself be called a "subhuman fuck" because I'm not entirely convinced of his guilt at the moment? Guess that is some sort of forum etiquette noone told me before.

Given that the post in question has been edited, arguing about it seems pretty pointless. -Hawk
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Re: IMF Chief arrested in New York for attempted rape

Postby Oregonaut » Mon May 16, 2011 1:28 pm UTC

Hey, so this dude may have, you know, raped someone. That possibility could be huge because...you know...he's kind of a known womanizer? So...let's go with the likelyhoods here. The fine men and women of the NYPD decided that they'd arrest the fucking Chief of the IMF. I'mma go with the odds here and say that it's looking like Mr. Frenchman couldn't keep it in his towel and decided to share it with someone who didn't want it. This someone, a lady, has put forth the accusation of sexual assault. The NYPD, after looking at the case, decided that they'd arrest the fucking Chief of the IMF. That's an important point to stress here. The likelyhood of this being a setup does not matter, because either way, a woman was allegedly sexually assaulted, and the case is looking airtight enough that the NYPD decided that they'd arrest the fucking Chief of the IMF.

K? Woman was mistreated big time, and stands not a single wit to gain from accusing this man. She may, in all likelyhood, end up losing her employment for "completely unrelated reasons", or at the very best, is going to be looked at askance by every person she worked with. Let's stop looking for elaborate setups, and maybe look at the likelyhood that a known womanizer decided he'd have some fun with someone who did not want to have fun.
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Re: IMF Chief arrested in New York for attempted rape

Postby Ulc » Mon May 16, 2011 1:32 pm UTC

Kulantan wrote:Also this:
Hawknc wrote:Innocent until proven guilty, of course, but I can only assume that NYC cops wouldn't arrest the chief of the IMF without a goddamn airtight case.


Not to mention that other (claimed to have been pressured not to bring it before) charges have surfaced.

And that he clearly attempted to flee the country, which tells us nothing directly about his guilt, but does tell us that A) He knew serious claims were about to be pressed and B) He knew the claim pressed was substitutional enough to not just be dismissed by the police.

I think that claiming that it's all a big conspiracy to make up the claims is pretty far fetched, when there's no evidence in that direction - not even something small to suggest it beyond claims of "he can't have done that". And the claims of a setup is completely irrelevant - even if it was a setup, it would still be sexual actions toward someone that didn't consent.
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Re: IMF Chief arrested in New York

Postby Kulantan » Mon May 16, 2011 1:37 pm UTC

Eowiel wrote:
jakovasaur wrote:Good thing this is a message board and not a courtroom then, huh?


So because this isn't a courtroom I should just let myself be called a "subhuman fuck" because I'm not entirely convinced of his guilt at the moment? Guess that is some sort of forum etiquette noone told me before.

Given that the post in question has been edited, arguing about it seems pretty pointless. -Hawk

Eowiel, along with Hawk eminently sensible editing, I would like to apologise for saying that. That wording was uncalled for and intemperate. However, if you do honestly think that the conspiracy option is more likely than the he actually did it option, without any evidence, I do indeed think less of you.
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Re: IMF Chief arrested in New York for attempted rape

Postby Zamfir » Mon May 16, 2011 1:47 pm UTC

Oregonaut wrote:Let's stop looking for elaborate setups, and maybe look at the likelyhood that a known womanizer decided he'd have some fun with someone who did not want to have fun.

Zamfir wrote:This case would be another, even more elaborate level of setup, and I personally find that implausible.

Just to be clear. Everything looks as if the guy did it, and there are enough rumours from his past to add to the plausibility. Unless the case falls apart very soon, it seems as if he is simply guilty. A court has to work with innocent until proven otherwise, we (and more relevant, his electorate) can use a less heavy burden of proof to make up our minds.

But if you want to understand reactions from France, then it is relevant that there are apparently French politicians who are willing to set up their opponents for jail time, and who can use large amounts of money and connections to do so. Most reactions from France are either "it seems he did it" or a neutral "let's wait for further developments". But when they are considering setups, they are not making stuff up out of the blue, but extrapolating from recent events.

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Re: IMF Chief arrested in New York for attempted rape

Postby Radical_Initiator » Mon May 16, 2011 1:48 pm UTC

Aaarrrgh.

"No one". "Likelihood."

Thank you.
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Re: IMF Chief arrested in New York for attempted rape

Postby engr » Mon May 16, 2011 1:49 pm UTC

Oregonaut wrote:Hey, so this dude may have, you know, raped someone. That possibility could be huge because...you know...he's kind of a known womanizer?

Hey, so this dude may have, you know, robbed someone. That possibility could be huge because...you know...he's kind of a rich guy?

I don't think one has to be a crazy moon-landing type conspiracy theorist to wonder if a head of IMF who is running for president and recently generated some economic controversy might be, you know, falsely accused. And what a great accusation they chose... if you accuse someone of a crime heinous enough, like rape or murder, people become so outraged with the crime itself that the question of "did this guy actually commit it?" becomes somewhat of a moveau tone (sp?). "You dare questioning it?! You freaking criminal-defending, victim-blaming, heartless sonovabitch!!!"
Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions. Gilbert K. Chesterton


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