IMF Chief arrested in New York for attempted rape

Seen something interesting in the news or on the intertubes? Discuss it here.

Moderators: Zamfir, Hawknc, Moderators General, Prelates

User avatar
Vash
Posts: 488
Joined: Sat Jan 22, 2011 9:14 pm UTC
Location: The planet Gunsmoke

Re: IMF Chief arrested in New York for attempted rape

Postby Vash » Sun Jul 10, 2011 8:44 pm UTC

Last edited by Vash on Sun Jul 10, 2011 8:49 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Dream
WINNING
Posts: 4338
Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2007 7:20 pm UTC
Location: The Hollow Scene Epic

Re: IMF Chief arrested in New York for attempted rape

Postby Dream » Sun Jul 10, 2011 8:46 pm UTC

Vash wrote:It seems straight from the beginning that either no statement was made or the crime was simply denied.

Which doesn't mean the he changed his story when faced with evidence. I haven't seen accounts that detail when and why he admitted sex. I've seen that he denied the charges, and that he admitted consensual sex, but nothing about the details of one or the other.
I knew a woman once, but she died soon after.

User avatar
jules.LT
Posts: 1539
Joined: Sun Jul 19, 2009 8:20 pm UTC
Location: Paris, France, Europe

Re: IMF Chief arrested in New York for attempted rape

Postby jules.LT » Sun Jul 10, 2011 8:48 pm UTC

If he had, it would be in each and every article...

So are we clear that he never denied having sex with her?
(which is consistent with not being completely stupid, when you know that your semen is all over the place)
Bertrand Russell wrote:Not to be absolutely certain is, I think, one of the essential things in rationality.
Richard Feynman & many others wrote:Keep an open mind – but not so open that your brain falls out

User avatar
mmmcannibalism
Posts: 2150
Joined: Tue Jun 30, 2009 6:16 am UTC

Re: IMF Chief arrested in New York for attempted rape

Postby mmmcannibalism » Mon Jul 11, 2011 12:50 am UTC

podbaydoor wrote:No, he outright denied that there was any sex. Then, after physical evidence was found, he changed it to consensual sex.


Not an expert on how admission of evidence works, but this may simply be the best way to construct your defense. Is the statement that you never had sex put into evidence if it is later proven you did have sex? If that isn't the case, then the best way to legally defend yourself is to always deny it happened until they can prove it. Perhaps a little ethically questionable, but I would probably not fault an innocent person for protecting them self.
Izawwlgood wrote:I for one would happily live on an island as a fuzzy seal-human.

Oregonaut wrote:Damn fetuses and their terroist plots.

johnny_7713
Posts: 555
Joined: Tue Jun 15, 2010 1:31 pm UTC

Re: IMF Chief arrested in New York for attempted rape

Postby johnny_7713 » Mon Jul 11, 2011 6:03 am UTC

mmmcannibalism wrote:
podbaydoor wrote:No, he outright denied that there was any sex. Then, after physical evidence was found, he changed it to consensual sex.


Not an expert on how admission of evidence works, but this may simply be the best way to construct your defense. Is the statement that you never had sex put into evidence if it is later proven you did have sex? If that isn't the case, then the best way to legally defend yourself is to always deny it happened until they can prove it. Perhaps a little ethically questionable, but I would probably not fault an innocent person for protecting them self.


Anything you say can and will be used against you as any police show will tell you. Especially if you first say one thing and then another in a case that hinges for a large part on your credibility.

User avatar
Iulus Cofield
WINNING
Posts: 2917
Joined: Wed Apr 07, 2010 9:31 am UTC

Re: IMF Chief arrested in New York for attempted rape

Postby Iulus Cofield » Mon Jul 11, 2011 7:25 am UTC

Indeed, however denying your guilt is a perfectly legitimate and non-damaging defense. You are not required to say anything which may be incriminating to yourself, including admitting that you had any kind of sexual relations with someone accusing you of rape.

User avatar
jules.LT
Posts: 1539
Joined: Sun Jul 19, 2009 8:20 pm UTC
Location: Paris, France, Europe

Re: IMF Chief arrested in New York for attempted rape

Postby jules.LT » Mon Jul 11, 2011 10:03 am UTC

Let me hammer this in:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702304319804576390253186917630.html
There is a transcript of what he said from the time of arrest to the point where he said that he was ready to talk but his lawyers told him not to.

In this timespan, he didn't say that he had not had sex with the girl, and he most certainly didn't say such an obviously stupid thing after talking with his lawyers.

When he first said that he hadn't raped her, he hadn't said yet that he had had sex with her.
People interpreted this as "he says he hasn't had sex with her".
When the forensic evidence came in, wishful thinkers saw this as contradicting what he had previously said, and that's what you can find on some of the less rigorous blogs and forums which had already convicted him.

Please don't let xkcd be one of those.
Bertrand Russell wrote:Not to be absolutely certain is, I think, one of the essential things in rationality.
Richard Feynman & many others wrote:Keep an open mind – but not so open that your brain falls out

HungryHobo
Posts: 1708
Joined: Wed Oct 20, 2010 9:01 am UTC

Re: IMF Chief arrested in New York for attempted rape

Postby HungryHobo » Mon Jul 11, 2011 10:43 am UTC

Iulus Cofield wrote:Indeed, however denying your guilt is a perfectly legitimate and non-damaging defense. You are not required to say anything which may be incriminating to yourself, including admitting that you had any kind of sexual relations with someone accusing you of rape.


If you ever get accused of anything.
anything whatsoever don't say a single word.
Don't deny anything.
Put your lips together and don't open them till you've consulted a lawyer.
Don't so much as ask for the time.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wXkI4t7nuc

You have the right to remain silent. anything else. anything else at all can be used to hang you.

because even if the only thing you say is "I'm innocent" and the court later finds you guilty(perhaps you really are innocent but they made mistake, it can happen even with all the safeguards) then you can be charged with additional crimes for lying to the police.
Give a man a fish, he owes you one fish. Teach a man to fish, you give up your monopoly on fisheries.

User avatar
Belial
A terrible sound heard from a distance
Posts: 30450
Joined: Sat Apr 15, 2006 4:04 am UTC
Contact:

Re: IMF Chief arrested in New York for attempted rape

Postby Belial » Mon Jul 11, 2011 12:36 pm UTC

Chen wrote:
Diadem wrote:Tell me though, is she unreliable because she's a woman, or because she's black?


How bout because she seems to be an almost pathological liar? Lying to gain asylum, lying about a gang rape after the asylum case (apparently to keep in line with the original lie), lying to the grand jury about what she did after the incident, cheating on tax returns and misrepresenting income (not exactly lying I suppose) and finally being "untruthful with assistant district attorneys about a variety of additional topics concerning her history, background, present circumstances and relationships."


Almost all of those things fall under "lying to protect oneself". That doesn't make her a pathological liar. Pathological liars lie for no reason. Hell, that doesn't even indicate she was ever a malicious liar.

One could argue, however, that as a politician, DSK is a near-pathological liar. So it goes.
addams wrote:A drunk neighbor is better than a sober Belial.


They/them

User avatar
Dream
WINNING
Posts: 4338
Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2007 7:20 pm UTC
Location: The Hollow Scene Epic

Re: IMF Chief arrested in New York for attempted rape

Postby Dream » Mon Jul 11, 2011 12:51 pm UTC

Belial wrote:One could argue, however, that as a politician, DSK is a near-pathological liar.

It's worse than you think. He's an economist.
I knew a woman once, but she died soon after.

User avatar
Zamfir
I built a novelty castle, the irony was lost on some.
Posts: 7605
Joined: Wed Aug 27, 2008 2:43 pm UTC
Location: Nederland

Re: IMF Chief arrested in New York for attempted rape

Postby Zamfir » Mon Jul 11, 2011 1:05 pm UTC

Dream wrote:
Belial wrote:One could argue, however, that as a politician, DSK is a near-pathological liar.

It's worse than you think. He's an economist.

Economists are different, they really believe the stuff they say.

Belial wrote:Almost all of those things fall under "lying to protect oneself".

Yeah, that bothers me about this. A lot of those lies are stuff I would never have to lie about, with my steady job and secure first-world passport. But there's a lot of people who have little choice but to live somewhat dodgy lives, with lies about their past and friends with criminal ties. It's not good if those people are basically unable to file a rape charge because of the scrutiny it would involve in their own lives. No matter what really happened here, a lot of future raped women will have learned a nasty lesson about pressing charges if their past isn't squeeky clean.

Chen
Posts: 5582
Joined: Fri Jul 25, 2008 6:53 pm UTC
Location: Montreal

Re: IMF Chief arrested in New York for attempted rape

Postby Chen » Mon Jul 11, 2011 1:07 pm UTC

Belial wrote:
Almost all of those things fall under "lying to protect oneself". That doesn't make her a pathological liar. Pathological liars lie for no reason. Hell, that doesn't even indicate she was ever a malicious liar.


True, pathological was not correct there. Habitual is likely more accurate.

User avatar
Belial
A terrible sound heard from a distance
Posts: 30450
Joined: Sat Apr 15, 2006 4:04 am UTC
Contact:

Re: IMF Chief arrested in New York for attempted rape

Postby Belial » Mon Jul 11, 2011 1:11 pm UTC

Chen wrote:
Belial wrote:
Almost all of those things fall under "lying to protect oneself". That doesn't make her a pathological liar. Pathological liars lie for no reason. Hell, that doesn't even indicate she was ever a malicious liar.


True, pathological was not correct there. Habitual is likely more accurate.


As Zamfir elaborates, it is something of a blatant manifestation of privilege to be able to look down on that sort of "habit", much less to declare that it makes "justice" (in whatever form we're pretending that is) inaccessible to someone forever.

Of course, blatant manifestations of privilege aren't really a new thing by our justice system.
addams wrote:A drunk neighbor is better than a sober Belial.


They/them

User avatar
Dream
WINNING
Posts: 4338
Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2007 7:20 pm UTC
Location: The Hollow Scene Epic

Re: IMF Chief arrested in New York for attempted rape

Postby Dream » Mon Jul 11, 2011 1:23 pm UTC

Is she really habitual or pathological? I only recall characterisations of her that involved lying for specific and considered reasons. I'm aware of a few very big lies, such as her gang rape story and her housing benefit fraud, but no others. I don't think the scale of the lies necessarily means a person is habituated to telling them.
I knew a woman once, but she died soon after.

Chen
Posts: 5582
Joined: Fri Jul 25, 2008 6:53 pm UTC
Location: Montreal

Re: IMF Chief arrested in New York for attempted rape

Postby Chen » Mon Jul 11, 2011 1:52 pm UTC

Dream wrote:Is she really habitual or pathological? I only recall characterisations of her that involved lying for specific and considered reasons. I'm aware of a few very big lies, such as her gang rape story and her housing benefit fraud, but no others. I don't think the scale of the lies necessarily means a person is habituated to telling them.


The last part of that letter seems to imply numerous other falsehoods. I will concede its likely these are all related to this case. As such I suppose the statement could be modified to be "she has been habitually lying about this case". So perhaps she doesn't normally lie, but we have evidence she has lied in the past for asylum and she has been lying about numerous other things when asked about them, with respect to this case. Both statements make it extremely difficult to take her word about matters regarding this case at face value. Certainly not enough to use her word to convict beyond a reasonable doubt.

User avatar
Zamfir
I built a novelty castle, the irony was lost on some.
Posts: 7605
Joined: Wed Aug 27, 2008 2:43 pm UTC
Location: Nederland

Re: IMF Chief arrested in New York for attempted rape

Postby Zamfir » Mon Jul 11, 2011 3:36 pm UTC

Belial wrote:
Of course, blatant manifestations of privilege aren't really a new thing by our justice system.

Do you think the system should act very different in this particular case? It seems to me that the case (like lots of such cases) is inherently problematic, no matter how fair or class-blind the system would be. We can perhaps understand her reasons to lie (or perhaps we really cannot from our position) , but the lies still genuinely undermine her credibility in a case that hinges on that credibility.

It's a problem that the case depends so much on that credibility, and it its a problem that her credibility is partially damaged by things that happened before the events even took place. But even a fair justice system has to work with the case as it is.

User avatar
Belial
A terrible sound heard from a distance
Posts: 30450
Joined: Sat Apr 15, 2006 4:04 am UTC
Contact:

Re: IMF Chief arrested in New York for attempted rape

Postby Belial » Mon Jul 11, 2011 4:04 pm UTC

I think the ability to see those previous lies as "credibility damaging" rather than "entirely necessary and therefore credibility-neutral" is a pretty clear manifestation of a justice system that looks at it from much closer to your perspective as someone who

Zamfir wrote:would never have to lie about {that}, with my steady job and secure first-world passport.


And much further away from where she's operating.
addams wrote:A drunk neighbor is better than a sober Belial.


They/them

User avatar
Dream
WINNING
Posts: 4338
Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2007 7:20 pm UTC
Location: The Hollow Scene Epic

Re: IMF Chief arrested in New York for attempted rape

Postby Dream » Mon Jul 11, 2011 4:12 pm UTC

Belial wrote:I think the ability to see those previous lies as "credibility damaging" rather than "entirely necessary and therefore credibility-neutral"...


Privilege blinding us to the potential necessity of those lies blinds us also to the lucre of the developed world to a resident of the developing world, and the potential for corruption by it. If in our privilege we have no way to understand her motivations, we can hardly assume they were a grudging necessity rather than a cynical exploitation when one is as possible as the other.
I knew a woman once, but she died soon after.

HungryHobo
Posts: 1708
Joined: Wed Oct 20, 2010 9:01 am UTC

Re: IMF Chief arrested in New York for attempted rape

Postby HungryHobo » Mon Jul 11, 2011 6:10 pm UTC

Belial wrote:I think the ability to see those previous lies as "credibility damaging" rather than "entirely necessary and therefore credibility-neutral" is a pretty clear manifestation of a justice system that


that's pretty much an unavoidable problem.
You either end up being extremely unfair to the defendant by not allowing them to bring up the very relevant fact that the person accusing them of a crime has lied about related things in the past or potentially unfair to the person accusing them of a crime as there may have been good reason for those lies.

If you cry wolf people are going to take you less seriously the next time when it might be real.

The same could be said for defending yourself.
if you commit a lot of less serious crimes people might be less willing to to believe you didn't really commit a more serious one when you're accused even if you're innocent if it's your word against someone elses. you might have had good reason but the court can't just ignore your past actions.
Give a man a fish, he owes you one fish. Teach a man to fish, you give up your monopoly on fisheries.

Eowiel
Posts: 166
Joined: Sat Jun 12, 2010 5:57 pm UTC

Re: IMF Chief arrested in New York for attempted rape

Postby Eowiel » Mon Jul 11, 2011 6:34 pm UTC

HungryHobo wrote:because even if the only thing you say is "I'm innocent" and the court later finds you guilty(perhaps you really are innocent but they made mistake, it can happen even with all the safeguards) then you can be charged with additional crimes for lying to the police.


Except when this would be different for the US I don't think this is possible. I think you can never be punished for the act of lying for the purpose of not incriminating yourself. The moment you become a suspect in a crime investigation you have the right to lie, in some countries this right is even extended to the supect's family.

Роберт
Posts: 4285
Joined: Wed May 14, 2008 1:56 am UTC

Re: IMF Chief arrested in New York for attempted rape

Postby Роберт » Mon Jul 11, 2011 6:59 pm UTC

Eowiel wrote:
HungryHobo wrote:because even if the only thing you say is "I'm innocent" and the court later finds you guilty(perhaps you really are innocent but they made mistake, it can happen even with all the safeguards) then you can be charged with additional crimes for lying to the police.


Except when this would be different for the US I don't think this is possible. I think you can never be punished for the act of lying for the purpose of not incriminating yourself. The moment you become a suspect in a crime investigation you have the right to lie, in some countries this right is even extended to the supect's family.

What country is this?
The Great Hippo wrote:[T]he way we treat suspected terrorists genuinely terrifies me.

User avatar
Xeio
Friends, Faidites, Countrymen
Posts: 5101
Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2007 11:12 am UTC
Location: C:\Users\Xeio\
Contact:

Re: IMF Chief arrested in New York for attempted rape

Postby Xeio » Mon Jul 11, 2011 7:15 pm UTC

Eowiel wrote:I think you can never be punished for the act of lying for the purpose of not incriminating yourself. The moment you become a suspect in a crime investigation you have the right to lie, in some countries this right is even extended to the supect's family.
I'm pretty sure the 5th amendment only provides protection against being forced to give evidence, not providing false evidence. See perjury or obstruction of justice.

And that's not even going into how stupid you are to try and lie yourself out of a situation like that if there is even the tiniest possibility they can prove you lied.

User avatar
Iulus Cofield
WINNING
Posts: 2917
Joined: Wed Apr 07, 2010 9:31 am UTC

Re: IMF Chief arrested in New York for attempted rape

Postby Iulus Cofield » Mon Jul 11, 2011 9:37 pm UTC

Zamfir wrote:privilege


Belial wrote:privilege


Let's not forget that she didn't just lie about her immigration (and that she faked severe emotional distress while recounting her fabricated accounts). She also committed tax fraud. She also ripped off the welfare system. She also changed her account of what happened with Strauss-Kahn repeatedly. She was also caught making private statements indicating she was trying to profit off of Strauss-Kahn. On top of that, the injury she allegedly suffered from Strauss-Kahn was not reported until long after her accusation was made; has it even been confirmed to be real and not an excuse to avoid talking to the prosecution? On top of that, she has known connections to criminals.

Before we start feeling sorry for her because we're richer than her, we need to remember that she did have a steady job, that she was receiving housing assistance, and that she has been shown to have lied about a wide variety of things that all were for her own personal financial gain. Being an immigrant does not entitle to or morally relieve you of the burden of committing crimes.

User avatar
jules.LT
Posts: 1539
Joined: Sun Jul 19, 2009 8:20 pm UTC
Location: Paris, France, Europe

Re: IMF Chief arrested in New York for attempted rape

Postby jules.LT » Mon Jul 11, 2011 11:13 pm UTC

Iulus Cofield wrote:On top of that, she has known connections to criminals.

Who deposited $100k on her bank account over the past two years. Which she hadn't even told her own attorney about.
Whatever happened, she doesn't stand a chance of winning the trial.
Bertrand Russell wrote:Not to be absolutely certain is, I think, one of the essential things in rationality.
Richard Feynman & many others wrote:Keep an open mind – but not so open that your brain falls out

User avatar
Adacore
Posts: 2755
Joined: Fri Feb 20, 2009 12:35 pm UTC
Location: 한국 창원

Re: IMF Chief arrested in New York for attempted rape

Postby Adacore » Mon Jul 11, 2011 11:33 pm UTC

I still believe that on balance DSK is probably guilty, but there's absolutely no way you can secure a 'beyond reasonable doubt' conviction with victim credibility problems in what is effectively a he-says/she-says case. The whole situation is obviously undesirable, but I agree that acquittal is the 'correct' result from what I've seen.

User avatar
Cathy
Posts: 850
Joined: Sun Dec 27, 2009 5:31 am UTC
Location: TX, USA

Re: IMF Chief arrested in New York for attempted rape

Postby Cathy » Mon Jul 11, 2011 11:43 pm UTC

Zamfir wrote:No matter what really happened here, a lot of future raped women will have learned a nasty lesson about pressing charges if their past isn't squeeky clean.


^This right here. Even if you're a female drug dealer with murderer brothers who's illegally in the US, you should be able to report a rape. The idea that we shouldn't care about an assault or shouldn't prosecute an assault because the person who was allegedly assaulted has done grey<->black stuff before? Eff that noise.
Amie wrote:Cathy, I now declare you to be an awesome person, by the powers vested in me by nobody, really.
yurell wrote:We need fewer homoeopaths, that way they'll be more potent!

User avatar
folkhero
Posts: 1775
Joined: Fri Aug 01, 2008 3:34 am UTC

Re: IMF Chief arrested in New York for attempted rape

Postby folkhero » Tue Jul 12, 2011 12:00 am UTC

I don't know anyone who is saying we shouldn't care, but what is the point of prosecuting a case without enough evidence to convict? Anyone is able to report a rape, but if you have credibility issues then the defendant has every right to bring them up to defend him/herself.
To all law enforcement entities, this is not an admission of guilt...

User avatar
Dream
WINNING
Posts: 4338
Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2007 7:20 pm UTC
Location: The Hollow Scene Epic

Re: IMF Chief arrested in New York for attempted rape

Postby Dream » Tue Jul 12, 2011 12:03 am UTC

Adacore wrote:I still believe that on balance DSK is probably guilty,

Why? What do you have to base that on bar an impression of the man as sleazy and promiscuous, when, as we always say with respect to victims, character has no bearing on the facts of the matter at hand?

Cathy wrote:The idea that we shouldn't care about an assault or shouldn't prosecute an assault because the person who was allegedly assaulted has done grey<->black stuff before? Eff that noise.

Is anyone suggesting that? Because we should certainly be suspicious of a person who has faked allegations of the very same crime before, especially when that person is recorded discussing her potential to gain from the situation just as she did before. But I don't think anyone is suggesting her allegations should be dismissed on the general principle that she has in the past broken the law in some fashion. If you're referring to any discussion in this thread, that's a gross misconstruction.
I knew a woman once, but she died soon after.

User avatar
Adacore
Posts: 2755
Joined: Fri Feb 20, 2009 12:35 pm UTC
Location: 한국 창원

Re: IMF Chief arrested in New York for attempted rape

Postby Adacore » Tue Jul 12, 2011 12:06 am UTC

Dream wrote:
Adacore wrote:I still believe that on balance DSK is probably guilty,

Why? What do you have to base that on bar an impression of the man as sleazy and promiscuous, when, as we always say with respect to victims, character has no bearing on the facts of the matter at hand?

Purely because a hotel maid having consensual sex with DSK after having come to clean his room strikes me as unlikely in the first place, so when she says it wasn't consensual, I put more weight on her story than his.

User avatar
Cathy
Posts: 850
Joined: Sun Dec 27, 2009 5:31 am UTC
Location: TX, USA

Re: IMF Chief arrested in New York for attempted rape

Postby Cathy » Tue Jul 12, 2011 12:09 am UTC

Dream wrote:
Cathy wrote:The idea that we shouldn't care about an assault or shouldn't prosecute an assault because the person who was allegedly assaulted has done grey<->black stuff before? Eff that noise.

Is anyone suggesting that? Because we should certainly be suspicious of a person who has faked allegations of the very same crime before, especially when that person is recorded discussing her potential to gain from the situation just as she did before. But I don't think anyone is suggesting her allegations should be dismissed on the general principle that she has in the past broken the law in some fashion. If you're referring to any discussion in this thread, that's a gross misconstruction.

Definitely not, my apologies -- I just got back from several hours in a waiting room with some talk show host talking about what an awful person the alleged victim was and accusing her of everything except murder. I stomped over to this thread already angry at some idiot on Faux News or some associated channel.

I do find it suspicious that she is so very interested in her potential gain, but I'm rather ticked off by the court of public opinion.
Amie wrote:Cathy, I now declare you to be an awesome person, by the powers vested in me by nobody, really.
yurell wrote:We need fewer homoeopaths, that way they'll be more potent!

User avatar
Dream
WINNING
Posts: 4338
Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2007 7:20 pm UTC
Location: The Hollow Scene Epic

Re: IMF Chief arrested in New York for attempted rape

Postby Dream » Tue Jul 12, 2011 12:23 am UTC

Adacore wrote:
Dream wrote:
Adacore wrote:I still believe that on balance DSK is probably guilty,

Why? What do you have to base that on bar an impression of the man as sleazy and promiscuous, when, as we always say with respect to victims, character has no bearing on the facts of the matter at hand?

Purely because a hotel maid having consensual sex with DSK after having come to clean his room strikes me as unlikely in the first place, so when she says it wasn't consensual, I put more weight on her story than his.

But, you have no reason to think it wasn't consensual beyond her word. The fact that you personally find two people who just met having sex to be unlikely is meaningless and carries no weight whatsoever. I personally have had sex with people on the same day that I met them, why not these two?
Cathy wrote:some talk show host talking about what an awful person the alleged victim

Leaving out the Fox bullshit I have no doubt was monumentally angering, this goes right back to what Belial was saying about our point of view on a woman trying to escape a situation we have no frame of reference for, which I can't agree with. Just because we could imagine a justification for her fabrication of a gang rape doesn't mean that justification was actually what motivated her. If she were as cynical as she could easily have been, I do think she's a terrible person.
I knew a woman once, but she died soon after.

User avatar
Adacore
Posts: 2755
Joined: Fri Feb 20, 2009 12:35 pm UTC
Location: 한국 창원

Re: IMF Chief arrested in New York for attempted rape

Postby Adacore » Tue Jul 12, 2011 12:28 am UTC

Dream wrote:But, you have no reason to think it wasn't consensual beyond her word. The fact that you personally find two people who just met having sex to be unlikely is meaningless and carries no weight whatsoever. I personally have had sex with people on the same day that I met them, why not these two?

It's not so much purely the 'just met to sex' thing that strikes me as unlikely, but the 'sex with a stranger while working' thing, and I tend to default to believing the victim in rape reporting cases. You pretty much made my point, though - I agree that this would carry no weight in court, it's just my opinion, hence why I think acquittal is the correct objective result.

User avatar
Dream
WINNING
Posts: 4338
Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2007 7:20 pm UTC
Location: The Hollow Scene Epic

Re: IMF Chief arrested in New York for attempted rape

Postby Dream » Tue Jul 12, 2011 12:55 am UTC

This is the core of the issue:
Adacore wrote:I tend to default to believing the victim in rape reporting cases.

The rest, without any disrespect, is rationalisation. And that's why that earlier discussion about the court of public opinion and the perp walk was so important. You've already preconceived a notion of the narrative, and even with everything that's come to light about this case, that's practically impossible to shake.

It's unfortunate, but in rape cases defending the defendant rarely involves standing up for a morally or ethically righteous individual. If a girl really did decide to see how many men she could have sex with at once at a party, then alleged rape to maintain her reputation, the guys who took turns with her are very, very unlikely to be the kind of people you want to be defending. (Substitute the specifics of many rapes, and imagine the victim was making it up, and you get the same situation.) But in some cases, they deserve to be defended, and should be given all the moral benefit of the doubt that the alleged victim is, because it's not a crime to be a dickhead. If that's what happened, it's not a crime to fuck the maid because she comes on strong and suddenly, then freak out and run because she suddenly starts acting like you forced her. God knows, the director of the IMF is not a man I would defend about anything, ever. I'm more likely to punch him than shake his hand. But I can't see refusing to defend him in these circumstances, because I wouldn't refuse it to anyone else, and I have to treat him the same way. Otherwise I'm not ethically consistent, and that's a problem.
I knew a woman once, but she died soon after.

User avatar
podbaydoor
Posts: 7548
Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2007 4:16 am UTC
Location: spaceship somewhere out there

Re: IMF Chief arrested in New York for attempted rape

Postby podbaydoor » Tue Jul 12, 2011 1:00 am UTC

You make salient points. But how do you then balance that with the oft-discussed fears of actual rape victims of reporting their rapes because they know it was a dodgy situation or they have dodgy histories?

OT:
Whatever else happens in the case with the hotel worker and DSK, I'm glad that it has at least inspired women in France (who unfortunately have more public credibility from being white and wealthy) to come forward about his harassing/assaulting behavior in general.
tenet |ˈtenit|
noun
a principle or belief, esp. one of the main principles of a religion or philosophy : the tenets of classical liberalism.
tenant |ˈtenənt|
noun
a person who occupies land or property rented from a landlord.

User avatar
Dream
WINNING
Posts: 4338
Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2007 7:20 pm UTC
Location: The Hollow Scene Epic

Re: IMF Chief arrested in New York for attempted rape

Postby Dream » Tue Jul 12, 2011 1:20 am UTC

podbaydoor wrote:how do you then balance that with the oft-discussed fears of actual rape victims of reporting their rapes because they know it was a dodgy situation or they have dodgy histories?

Their rights do not trump the right of their attacker to fair treatment by the justice system, and they certainly don't have any "right" to be falsely assured they have a solid case, go through with the trial and all its trauma, only to see their attacker go free when everyone knew that would be the outcome anyway. Since the fears of the silent victims are something that could be assuaged by a properly understanding and supportive police and court system, that's where I'd demand changes. If victims were treated as supportively and humanely as they should be, I wouldn't see any problem at all with standing up for the occasional dodgily accused defendant, because the real problem for victims is being taken seriously and feeling safe in making their allegations, not that they are all second guessing how the trial would go because of some half forgotten offences in their past.
I knew a woman once, but she died soon after.

User avatar
jules.LT
Posts: 1539
Joined: Sun Jul 19, 2009 8:20 pm UTC
Location: Paris, France, Europe

Re: IMF Chief arrested in New York for attempted rape

Postby jules.LT » Tue Jul 12, 2011 8:55 am UTC

Adacore wrote:It's not so much purely the 'just met to sex' thing that strikes me as unlikely, but the 'sex with a stranger while working' thing

I don't think that many "consensual sex" scenarios of what happened see DSK's sexiness as the motive. Offering "extra service" in hope of a big tip is more usual and much less unbelievable.

podbaydoor wrote:You make salient points. But how do you then balance that with the oft-discussed fears of actual rape victims of reporting their rapes because they know it was a dodgy situation or they have dodgy histories?

If their profile looks much worse than that of their attacker's, I'm afraid that a jury will still need some material evidence. Like witnesses who heard her scream or scratch marks on the attacker.

Sadly, the nature of rape is such that when the defense is "it was consensual" and there are no clear signs of struggle it becomes a case of "he says, she says"... You can't use a lower burden of proof to convict suspected rapists.

Other possibilities to make the situation better include punishing the ones you catch harder, protecting the presumed victims better, increasing prevention, etc...

podbaydoor wrote:Whatever else happens in the case with the hotel worker and DSK, I'm glad that it has at least inspired women in France (who unfortunately have more public credibility from being white and wealthy) to come forward about his harassing/assaulting behavior in general.

The maid's being black and poor actually played in her favor. It's her links with criminals and lies that are bringing the case down. The link between the two isn't that automatic.
The new old case against DSK is hurt a lot by the fact that she's waited 8 years.

No, the really good thing about this case is that it made the victims of Georges Tron come forward, and their probable success will in turn encourage others.
Bertrand Russell wrote:Not to be absolutely certain is, I think, one of the essential things in rationality.
Richard Feynman & many others wrote:Keep an open mind – but not so open that your brain falls out

User avatar
Elvish Pillager
Posts: 1009
Joined: Mon Aug 04, 2008 9:58 pm UTC
Location: Everywhere you think, nowhere you can possibly imagine.
Contact:

Re: IMF Chief arrested in New York for attempted rape

Postby Elvish Pillager » Thu Jul 28, 2011 1:45 pm UTC

Color me not surprised: http://www.greenwichtime.com/news/artic ... 610080.php

The Associated Press wrote:But on the tapes, her mentions of Strauss-Kahn's resources and her knowing what to do are made at different points, and in contexts that cast them in a considerably different light, Thompson said.
In her first conversation with the man, she didn't mention Strauss-Kahn's wealth at all, instead telling her friend that "someone tried to rape me, and that he's a powerful, big man," who had tried to take her clothes off, pushed her, and ultimately made her do something against her will, Thompson said.
In a subsequent conversation, she told her friend that her attacker "is powerful and rich," her lawyer said. But it was earlier in that conversation — and not in connection with any mention of Strauss-Kahn's status — that she said "I know what to do" to signal that she gone to authorities, planned to hire a lawyer and would be all right, Thompson said.
"Her primary focus was on what happened to her, how she was coping with the fact that she had almost been raped," he said.


Of course, technically, all we have is two different stories about what she says in the tapes, and both of them are completely unverifiable from our perspective, since we don't have access to the tapes. I'd hazard a guess that, out of this one and the much-less-specific one from an unidentified "law enforcement official" about whom we know nothing, this one is a lot closer to correct.

If they use these tapes as evidence during the trial, I would hope they would get some competent, independent translators.
Also known as Eli Dupree. Check out elidupree.com for my comics, games, and other work.

GENERATION A(g64, g64): Social experiment. Take the busy beaver function of the generation number and add it to your signature.

Роберт
Posts: 4285
Joined: Wed May 14, 2008 1:56 am UTC

Re: IMF Chief arrested in New York for attempted rape

Postby Роберт » Thu Jul 28, 2011 2:33 pm UTC

In other words, we know she's not 100% credible, but there's not a whole lot of reason to doubt her word on this specific instance?
The Great Hippo wrote:[T]he way we treat suspected terrorists genuinely terrifies me.

User avatar
podbaydoor
Posts: 7548
Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2007 4:16 am UTC
Location: spaceship somewhere out there

Re: IMF Chief arrested in New York for attempted rape

Postby podbaydoor » Thu Jul 28, 2011 2:42 pm UTC

Man, this whole thing just makes me wary. Yeah, a person's previous credibility is a factor, but no one is ever 100% credible. I know that "boy who cried wolf" fable is meant to warn people about lying and how it will erode your social standing and make you an asshole, but that doesn't make the boy any less dead and eaten by the end of the story.
tenet |ˈtenit|
noun
a principle or belief, esp. one of the main principles of a religion or philosophy : the tenets of classical liberalism.
tenant |ˈtenənt|
noun
a person who occupies land or property rented from a landlord.

User avatar
Dream
WINNING
Posts: 4338
Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2007 7:20 pm UTC
Location: The Hollow Scene Epic

Re: IMF Chief arrested in New York for attempted rape

Postby Dream » Thu Jul 28, 2011 3:38 pm UTC

Elvish Pillager wrote: I'd hazard a guess that, out of this one and the much-less-specific one from an unidentified "law enforcement official" about whom we know nothing, this one is a lot closer to correct.

The wording of the tape is not nearly as important as the fact hat her public prosecution team have themselves decided that this and other evidence demolishes her credibility. Whatever the actual content of the tape, we have a legal opinion for someone who really, really wishes that opinion were not the case, that the tape essentially erases the woman's testimony as a basis for their case.
I knew a woman once, but she died soon after.


Return to “News & Articles”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot], iamspen and 15 guests