IMF Chief arrested in New York for attempted rape

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jules.LT
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Re: IMF Chief arrested in New York for attempted rape

Postby jules.LT » Tue Aug 30, 2011 8:02 am UTC

Vash wrote:
Belial wrote:Like the fact that he basically admitted to it? Their defensive line basically consists of "well, yes, I totally had sex with those women despite the fact that they were objecting and, in one case, trying to get away, but I got them to consent afterward, so.."

Basically, they're pursuing the "not technically rape" angle which might very well get them off in court, but out here where people are using their own judgment, we're pretty free to say that that's exactly what it sounds like.
So Julian Assange actually is a rapist, and is trying to get off using flaws in the legal system.
He didn't admit to it, and this blog post quotes its sources selectively in a dishonest manner.
Please read the thread and take into account what's been written before, before you relaunch a subject.
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Re: IMF Chief arrested in New York for attempted rape

Postby Elvish Pillager » Tue Aug 30, 2011 2:37 pm UTC

jules.lt, does anyone actually question whether those sexual acts happened? Because if not, then grumbling over whether he "admitted" it is kinda irrelevant to the statement that he is a rapist.

As to the Strauss-Kahn case... last I heard, the prosecution didn't think that the evidence was enough to convince a jury beyond reasonable doubt, but Diallo's lawyer did think that it was enough. That's quite some disagreement, there! If only we had a factual way to test whether the evidence was enough to convince a jury...? Oh right! A jury! :|
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Re: IMF Chief arrested in New York for attempted rape

Postby jakovasaur » Tue Aug 30, 2011 3:12 pm UTC

Elvish Pillager wrote:jules.lt, does anyone actually question whether those sexual acts happened? Because if not, then grumbling over whether he "admitted" it is kinda irrelevant to the statement that he is a rapist.


The way I read it, his lawyer seemed to be saying that regardless of the veracity of their claims, what Assange is accused of is not illegal/not extraditable.

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Re: IMF Chief arrested in New York for attempted rape

Postby Sunshine! » Tue Aug 30, 2011 3:47 pm UTC

As I understand it (from what was brought up in the actual Assange discussion thread ages ago), Sweden's laws concerning rape are different, where women can retroactively withdraw consent for sexual activity.

Regarding the sex-while-asleep case, a likely scenario is that the sex continued because the woman was quite afraid for herself and froze. Consider that self-defense-wise, having a guy on top of you is not exactly an ideal position if you're not trained in Brazilian Jiu Jitsu or some similar martial art, and you're already likely weaker with less height and weight. In addition, the man having sex with you has already demonstrated his willingness to flagrantly violate your personal space, and as such may not have any qualms about inflicting physical harm if he can get to an advantageous position (and he already is in one, on top of you). Many animals simply go limp if they're placed in a situation where their lives feel threatened, and I have no reason to believe that wouldn't apply to people at some point, especially in a case such as this. Therefore the sexual encounter continuing without explicit consent cannot be taken to have been consent, because of issues of extreme psychological duress.

So Jules, regardless of your personal experiences with the matter, if the woman has decided this was rape, it probably was. Doubly true because there was no pre-established pattern of behavior or implied consent in their relationship, as I understand it, because it was a one-night stand.

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Re: IMF Chief arrested in New York for attempted rape

Postby jules.LT » Tue Aug 30, 2011 5:47 pm UTC

Sunshine! wrote:Regarding the sex-while-asleep case, a likely scenario is that the sex continued because the woman was quite afraid for herself and froze.
The leaked police documents give another story:
she woke up and asked, “Are you wearing anything?”
“You,” Assange replied.
“You’d better not have HIV,” she said.
“Of course not.”
According to the police report, “she felt it was too late” to halt the unprotected sex. “He [Assange] was already inside her and she let him continue.


Sunshine! wrote:if the woman has decided this was rape, it probably was.
As I understand it, they came forward asking for an HIV test, and after hearing their stories the police decided it was rape.
I haven't even seen a reliable source saying whether the women themselves consider it rape at all: it's all law talk about the events, with no reference to their feelings.
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Re: IMF Chief arrested in New York for attempted rape

Postby Eowiel » Wed Aug 31, 2011 7:01 am UTC

Elvish Pillager wrote:
As to the Strauss-Kahn case... last I heard, the prosecution didn't think that the evidence was enough to convince a jury beyond reasonable doubt, but Diallo's lawyer did think that it was enough. That's quite some disagreement, there! If only we had a factual way to test whether the evidence was enough to convince a jury...? Oh right! A jury! :|


Ofcourse Diallo's lawyer says he thinks it was enough, it's Diallo's lawyer. If his client wants to go to court he would have to be a really bad lawyer to say that he thinks the evidence isn't convincing. Under your logic, every complaint about criminal acts filed should be judged by a jury no matter how unbelievable the claim because every lawyer of an accuser is publicly always going to state that the evidence is convincing.

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Re: IMF Chief arrested in New York for attempted rape

Postby Elvish Pillager » Wed Aug 31, 2011 2:26 pm UTC

Exactly who is your impartial judge of whether the evidence is sufficient, then?
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Re: IMF Chief arrested in New York for attempted rape

Postby Dream » Wed Aug 31, 2011 2:30 pm UTC

Elvish Pillager wrote:Exactly who is your impartial judge of whether the evidence is sufficient, then?

It's supposed to be the state prosecutor, but maniacs in America think such a person should be terrified about re-election at all times.
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Re: IMF Chief arrested in New York for attempted rape

Postby Arrian » Wed Aug 31, 2011 2:49 pm UTC

Elvish Pillager wrote:As to the Strauss-Kahn case... last I heard, the prosecution didn't think that the evidence was enough to convince a jury beyond reasonable doubt, but Diallo's lawyer did think that it was enough. That's quite some disagreement, there! If only we had a factual way to test whether the evidence was enough to convince a jury...? Oh right! A jury! :|


Did her lawyer think there was enough evidence for the criminal case, or was he talking about a civil case? (Or laying the groundwork for one?) She still has the ability to sue Strauss-Kahn for damages, and the burden of proof in civil cases is much lower. Remember, OJ was acquitted but still lost the (civil tort) wrongful death suit.

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Re: IMF Chief arrested in New York for attempted rape

Postby Eowiel » Wed Aug 31, 2011 6:53 pm UTC

Arrian wrote:
Elvish Pillager wrote:As to the Strauss-Kahn case... last I heard, the prosecution didn't think that the evidence was enough to convince a jury beyond reasonable doubt, but Diallo's lawyer did think that it was enough. That's quite some disagreement, there! If only we had a factual way to test whether the evidence was enough to convince a jury...? Oh right! A jury! :|


Did her lawyer think there was enough evidence for the criminal case, or was he talking about a civil case? (Or laying the groundwork for one?) She still has the ability to sue Strauss-Kahn for damages, and the burden of proof in civil cases is much lower. Remember, OJ was acquitted but still lost the (civil tort) wrongful death suit.


I could be wrong but I don't think a case where the prosecution itself has stated that they don't have enough evidence to even try to win a criminal case is going to have any chance of success during a civil court case. OJ Simpson's criminal case was a cliffhanger where, I think, most people believed he would be found guilty. With DSK there hasn't even been any criminal case.

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Re: IMF Chief arrested in New York for attempted rape

Postby buddy431 » Sun Sep 04, 2011 4:35 pm UTC

Anyway, Strauss-Kahn is back in France now.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-14777793

It remains to seen whether he tries to get back into politics. He still faces a civil suit from related to the case in the U.S., as well as allegations from Tristane Banon in France.

I assume that he can pretty much just ignore any U.S. civil case - is that true? Or is there a mechanism to collect any awarded damages against him if he's in France?

Edit: The case in France has been dropped. The prosecutor said that some of Strauss-Kahn's behavior "could be qualified as sexual assault", a lesser charge with a 3-year statute of limitations.
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