In other news... (humorous news items)

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby addams » Thu Apr 24, 2014 8:47 am UTC

speising wrote:does the police in the us not automatically locate every emergency call? i'm pretty sure they do here.

That is a darned good question.

I know Land Lines were traced.
It's easy.

The mechanism I don't know.
Cell phones were more difficult to trace.
Maybe, not now.

One Team traces calls.
A different Team gets dressed.

To find the phone that made that call should be easy.
Didn't they turn on the computer that day?

The news is enough to shake a person's confidence in our men and women in uniform.
Face to face interviews don't do much to bolster my confidence either. You?
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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby firechicago » Thu Apr 24, 2014 12:31 pm UTC

I am shocked, shocked to discover that the current far-right cause celebre, Mr. Cliven "How dare the government charge a fee for grazing rights on government land" Bundy is the type of person who uses phrases like "The Negro" and openly wonders whether we weren't all just better off when negroes just had benevolent white owners who looked out for them and taught them valuable skills like how to pick cotton, rather than being enslaved by the evil welfare state.

Because we all know that liberals are the real racists.

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby Angua » Thu Apr 24, 2014 12:39 pm UTC

The full quote from the NYT article they got the quote from. Spoilered for W.T.H.

Spoiler:
I want to tell you one more thing I know about the Negro,” he said. Mr. Bundy recalled driving past a public-housing project in North Las Vegas, “and in front of that government house the door was usually open and the older people and the kids — and there is always at least a half a dozen people sitting on the porch — they didn’t have nothing to do. They didn’t have nothing for their kids to do. They didn’t have nothing for their young girls to do.

“And because they were basically on government subsidy, so now what do they do?” he asked. “They abort their young children, they put their young men in jail, because they never learned how to pick cotton. And I’ve often wondered, are they better off as slaves, picking cotton and having a family life and doing things, or are they better off under government subsidy? They didn’t get no more freedom. They got less freedom.”

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby Darryl » Thu Apr 24, 2014 12:54 pm UTC

Thesh wrote:Caller ID can be spoofed; it's not exactly a secure system. You can also find an infected system that has a VOIP client and borrow their account.

911 doesn't use Caller ID, though. They use a more robust system, as evidenced by the fact that people, like a family friend who's a parole officer, who have Caller ID blocked from their phones still show up when calling 911.
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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby Tyndmyr » Thu Apr 24, 2014 1:13 pm UTC

firechicago wrote:I am shocked, shocked to discover that the current far-right cause celebre, Mr. Cliven "How dare the government charge a fee for grazing rights on government land" Bundy is the type of person who uses phrases like "The Negro" and openly wonders whether we weren't all just better off when negroes just had benevolent white owners who looked out for them and taught them valuable skills like how to pick cotton, rather than being enslaved by the evil welfare state.

Because we all know that liberals are the real racists.


Oh, yeah, he's an idiot. On many topics and I cannot imagine you'd get much worse as a spokesman against federal overreach or whatever. I think he'd have a MUCH stronger case for federal overstepping if he A. paid his goddamned fees. Yes, they probably suck, but just not paying fees to the government is bound to lead to trouble....and B. Didn't rail against the federal government merely existing and so on.

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby Heisenberg » Thu Apr 24, 2014 1:19 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:Didn't rail against the federal government merely existing and so on.
"Ladies and gentlemen of the SUPPOSED jury..."

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby johnny_7713 » Thu Apr 24, 2014 3:08 pm UTC

jareds wrote:Is there a downside to a moral panic over police departments' willingness to engage in paramilitary raids on random residences based on anonymous tips?


No; but the moral panic is more likely to be about Video Games Corrupting Our Youth, rather than about police powers.

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby solune » Thu Apr 24, 2014 3:52 pm UTC

Most worrying is this:
The caller could face multiple charges and may also be required to foot the bill for Tuesday’s police response, which is estimated at $100,000.


Isn't that a classic example of the (very wrong) Eggshell skull doctrine ?

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby firechicago » Thu Apr 24, 2014 4:26 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:Oh, yeah, he's an idiot. On many topics and I cannot imagine you'd get much worse as a spokesman against federal overreach or whatever. I think he'd have a MUCH stronger case for federal overstepping if he A. paid his goddamned fees. Yes, they probably suck, but just not paying fees to the government is bound to lead to trouble....and B. Didn't rail against the federal government merely existing and so on.

The fees may or may not suck, but in practical terms they represent a subsidy to the ranchers, since grazing fees on federal land are much lower than grazing fees on private land. Bundy's argument amounts to a complaint that his business receives insufficient subsidy from the federal government.

And I think the racial angle is important here. the last time black people tried something like this, the city of Philadelphia literally firebombed a whole city block in order to flush them out.

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby WilliamLehnsherr » Thu Apr 24, 2014 4:29 pm UTC

solune wrote:Most worrying is this:
The caller could face multiple charges and may also be required to foot the bill for Tuesday’s police response, which is estimated at $100,000.


Isn't that a classic example of the (very wrong) Eggshell skull doctrine ?


It would be worrying if they genuinely expected an individual to have to pay a $100,000 bill (at least in this case where I'm assuming they wouldn't have anywhere near that much money).

But, and I'm getting a bit off topic here, I don't see what's wrong with the eggshell skull rule. At least in tort law. If you hurt someone, you shouldn't be able to just say "well, I didn't know they had an eggshell skull so I shouldn't have to compensate them".

Like I said though, in this case it would be a little (or a lot) ridiculous.

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby addams » Thu Apr 24, 2014 5:16 pm UTC

WilliamLehnsherr wrote:
solune wrote:Most worrying is this:
The caller could face multiple charges and may also be required to foot the bill for Tuesday’s police response, which is estimated at $100,000.


Isn't that a classic example of the (very wrong) Eggshell skull doctrine ?


It would be worrying if they genuinely expected an individual to have to pay a $100,000 bill (at least in this case where I'm assuming they wouldn't have anywhere near that much money).

But, and I'm getting a bit off topic here, I don't see what's wrong with the eggshell skull rule. At least in tort law. If you hurt someone, you shouldn't be able to just say "well, I didn't know they had an eggshell skull so I shouldn't have to compensate them".

Like I said though, in this case it would be a little (or a lot) ridiculous.

"take their victims as they find them"

Those words set a Standard that is too high for Civilians.

To "take their victims as they find them" a person must be able to give The Other the Benefit of The Doubt.
To "take their victims as they find them" a person must take responsibility for the well being of The Other.
To "take their victims as they find them" a person needs to use intellectual tools many people do not have.

How can a person be Proud of Training and at the Same Time,
Expect Others to Know that shit without Training? That's stupid.


If I were Queer of The World, S/he would owe society something.
100,000 dollars? Nah.

That Little Gamer may have Won a $100,000 dollar education.
What school should The Gamer go to?

The Police Accadamy seems like The Wrong answer.
Law School? Maybe.

That may be closer to the Correct course of action.
If Real in the US today; What will The Gamer get?

100K Debt and Six Months in the County Jail listening to FOX News.
That will fix him? He will be a Good Citizen after that?

He messed with The Big Boyz.
Slap him Down and Slap him Down Hard.

It satisfies the American Sense of Justice.
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Who will Not ride into town to support the SWAT Team?
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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby Thesh » Thu Apr 24, 2014 10:12 pm UTC

firechicago wrote:I am shocked, shocked to discover that the current far-right cause celebre, Mr. Cliven "How dare the government charge a fee for grazing rights on government land" Bundy is the type of person who uses phrases like "The Negro" and openly wonders whether we weren't all just better off when negroes just had benevolent white owners who looked out for them and taught them valuable skills like how to pick cotton, rather than being enslaved by the evil welfare state.

Because we all know that liberals are the real racists.


The response I have seen from the right is "In the 60s, that was the acceptable word!" As if, in-context, you replaced "negro" with "PC" words, then it makes his statement not racist.
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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby yurell » Thu Apr 24, 2014 11:33 pm UTC

solune wrote:Most worrying is this:
The caller could face multiple charges and may also be required to foot the bill for Tuesday’s police response, which is estimated at $100,000.


Isn't that a classic example of the (very wrong) Eggshell skull doctrine ?


Personally, I don't think that the Eggshell Skull doctrine is wrong (although feel free to convince me), but either way I don't think this is a case of it — by making the call he had to be aware that a police response would be launched, and being forced to recompense the state for paying for such a response made to a fraudulent claim seems reasonable. Yes, he may have been ignorant of the cost of the response when he made the call, but simply not knowing what the cost of an expectable response is doesn't make it an Eggshell Skull case.

If, say, I stole someone's handbag (an act that we would all agree is non-fatal to an average person), and that person died because their medication was in the handbag and a replacement couldn't be found, then I would be liable for that person's death. This is an example of an Eggshell Skull style case (as I understand it) — even though I was not aware that the person had a medical condition, nor was I aware that I held the solution, all that the court cares about is that a person died because of my actions.

Naturally, IANAL, so pinches of salt disclaimer.
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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby KnightExemplar » Fri Apr 25, 2014 1:19 am UTC

Its a well known fact in my area at least... that if you prank-call the fire department, you pay for the ambulance fees and the firetruck fees. Its more or less standard procedure.

$100,000 for a SWAT Team bill is a bit much though.
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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby Jave D » Fri Apr 25, 2014 1:31 am UTC

Thesh wrote:
firechicago wrote:I am shocked, shocked to discover that the current far-right cause celebre, Mr. Cliven "How dare the government charge a fee for grazing rights on government land" Bundy is the type of person who uses phrases like "The Negro" and openly wonders whether we weren't all just better off when negroes just had benevolent white owners who looked out for them and taught them valuable skills like how to pick cotton, rather than being enslaved by the evil welfare state.

Because we all know that liberals are the real racists.


The response I have seen from the right is "In the 60s, that was the acceptable word!" As if, in-context, you replaced "negro" with "PC" words, then it makes his statement not racist.


There are several standard-issue knee-jerk defenses at play.

* He just doesn't have a big vocabulary and isn't familiar with all this newfangled urban slang.
* As usual the liberal media is taking it out of context and playing the race card to distract from the TRUTH!
* But if you think about it, we're all really, like, slaves, maaaan.
* He's not racist, he appears in a photo in proximity to a black person!

and of course the go-to option:

*lol libtard commies Benghazi nanny state FEMA camps Obummer

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby CorruptUser » Fri Apr 25, 2014 2:34 am UTC

Never understood the FEMA death camps conspiracy thing. People are a valuable resource, and it's not like we have a food shortage or anything. Who benefits from mass extermination and how? What, the Moon-Jews placed large bets of space-gold with the rest of the Bilderbergs that mass extermination would happen?

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby Jave D » Fri Apr 25, 2014 2:55 am UTC

CorruptUser wrote:Never understood the FEMA death camps conspiracy thing. People are a valuable resource, and it's not like we have a food shortage or anything. Who benefits from mass extermination and how? What, the Moon-Jews placed large bets of space-gold with the rest of the Bilderbergs that mass extermination would happen?


I never really understand any conspiracy theories. A friend of mine recently posted a link to one about how the American Civil War wasn't really about slavery but instead about the Rothschildes and "Banksters" and loans and paper money or something. And this friend isn't ordinarily conspiracy-theory oriented... too much. Another friend once was really into the Chemtrails conspiracy as well as the 9/11 Truther movement.

A large part of it seems to be that generalized American distrust of/animosity towards authority, since almost all conspiracy theories paint a picture of an evil authority of some kind victimizing, manipulating, harming and/or deceiving a large segment of the population. With the conspiracy theorist in the role of the One Hero Who Knows The Truth, whose eyes are open unlike the "sheople." (I hate that term. So much.)

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby Magnanimous » Fri Apr 25, 2014 3:28 am UTC

I almost want to set up a system where everyone secretly gets their own harmless shadowy conspiracy to defeat via whatever skill they're best at. Then they won't have to make up conspiracies and still feel like a hero. Ideally the actual meta-conspiracy stays hidden.

It's like living in a sci-fi utopia - if you were born there it doesn't seem that great, but if everyone goes through some hardship to enter they'll appreciate it more.

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby addams » Fri Apr 25, 2014 3:54 am UTC

Jave D wrote:
CorruptUser wrote:Never understood the FEMA death camps conspiracy thing. People are a valuable resource, and it's not like we have a food shortage or anything. Who benefits from mass extermination and how? What, the Moon-Jews placed large bets of space-gold with the rest of the Bilderbergs that mass extermination would happen?


I never really understand any conspiracy theories. A friend of mine recently posted a link to one about how the American Civil War wasn't really about slavery but instead about the Rothschildes and "Banksters" and loans and paper money or something. And this friend isn't ordinarily conspiracy-theory oriented... too much. Another friend once was really into the Chemtrails conspiracy as well as the 9/11 Truther movement.

A large part of it seems to be that generalized American distrust of/animosity towards authority, since almost all conspiracy theories paint a picture of an evil authority of some kind victimizing, manipulating, harming and/or deceiving a large segment of the population. With the conspiracy theorist in the role of the One Hero Who Knows The Truth, whose eyes are open unlike the "sheople." (I hate that term. So much.)

Seconded.
It is both frightening and funny.

Frightening Part?
jeeze. Where to begin?

That shit is scary.
I hear it, too.

Is it getting worse?
Worse than What?

Whose side are you on?
Well Fuck, Children;
What choices are there?

1. The Wing Nuts.
An Armed and Dangerous Undisciplined Trained by YouTube Anti-Govenment Revolutionaries.
As an old fashioned American, I was taught to like Revolutionaries.
This bunch gives that bunch a bad name.

2. The Government.
A Secretive, Violent, Ruthless, Amoral, bunch of Deciders like Bush II and Cheney,
backed by more of the same in uniform.

3. The Other Government.
A Black Muslim that uses the Power of the Office to hunt other Muslims.
He might be coming after You!

4. The Helpless and The Poor.
They have a plan, too.
They want your shit.
They want homes and clothes and cars and money to buy things with.
Where are they going to get the Money? From the Chief Muslim.
Where is he going to get it? From the Tea Bag. They will fight!

The Baggers are protecting us All.
From the Muslim taking money to give to Addicts and Alcoholics and Abortions.
Don't forget the Abortions.

5. Middle Class
oh. oops. Full Up.
No more room in the middle.

Put your name in The Lottery.
When they get an opening, they will call.

Oh! Oh!
Not a conspiracy; True!
The State of Oregon has a Lottery!
For Health Care! I shit you not.

If an adult needs medical they can fill out a form,
That form goes into a Lottery.
Winners get to see Medical Personal, maybe.

I asked a few questions.
I started to do the math.
Those were Not good numbers.

Is it a Conspiracy?
Covered with better conspiracies?

What do we What?
Health Care!

We want to receive health care.
We want to deliver health care.

What do we get?
More insurance forms.

I remember Mr. Obama as a young man.
His Mom was filling out insurance forms while she was dying.

Mr. Obama said he wanted something better for his people.
I believed him. Did he change his mind?

Maybe he wants a Long and Peaceful life more than he wants me to skip insurance forms.
More people are fucking around with and worried about insurance forms than ever.

Hey! This is not the Rant Thread!
What am I doing?
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Some of us see The Gutter.
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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby Jave D » Fri Apr 25, 2014 5:30 am UTC

So, in Minnesota. Guy on trial for murder, just for defending his life!

Of course, reading the article, it seems a little less clear. Why, for example, did he call a lawyer before he killed the intruding teens. Why did he set up an (audio) recorder? Why did he kill one of them, drag the body onto a tarp and move it into another room, reload, and then shoot the other one. Why, after shooting - and she was then on the floor screaming - did he then give a "finishing shot" (his words) to the "vermin" (his word)? And why did he wait a day before having one of his neighbors call the authorities?

That must have been a pretty creepy situation, the guy, alone in his home with two corpses for a day. But then maybe he didn't find it too weird since he said, "I don't see them as human. I see them as vermin."

But all of this is less darkly fascinating to me than the reaction in comments I've seen so far. Namely along the lines of - 'good on him, defending his property'; 'castle doctrine yay'; 'they'd still be alive if they didn't break and enter'; 'they were probably rapist and murderers too'; 'I'd do the same to anyone who came into MY HOUSE'; 'the world is better off'; 'they WERE vermin'; etc. Some of which you may agree with.

I understand the need and importance of self-defense, but all this seems a bit far too me. A bit crossing of the line. A bit, dare I say, bloody-minded and insane.

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby addams » Fri Apr 25, 2014 5:35 am UTC

That's one for the dark thread.
That's dark.
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
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Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby Thesh » Fri Apr 25, 2014 5:46 am UTC

I guess that is the last mistake they will ever make. And I have no sorrow for them being where they are now.


Reminds me of a nursery rhyme:

Lucy picked a fight with a bumble bee
The bumble bee went and told the crow
The crow settled down in the old gum tree
Sharped all the arrows for his bow
Flew across the town the the schoolhouse yard
Spotted little Lucy heading home
Shot her through the backpack and through the heart
Maybe that'll teach here, I don't know.
Summum ius, summa iniuria.

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby johnny_7713 » Fri Apr 25, 2014 7:32 am UTC

Jave D wrote:
CorruptUser wrote:Never understood the FEMA death camps conspiracy thing. People are a valuable resource, and it's not like we have a food shortage or anything. Who benefits from mass extermination and how? What, the Moon-Jews placed large bets of space-gold with the rest of the Bilderbergs that mass extermination would happen?


I never really understand any conspiracy theories. A friend of mine recently posted a link to one about how the American Civil War wasn't really about slavery but instead about the Rothschildes and "Banksters" and loans and paper money or something. And this friend isn't ordinarily conspiracy-theory oriented... too much. Another friend once was really into the Chemtrails conspiracy as well as the 9/11 Truther movement.

A large part of it seems to be that generalized American distrust of/animosity towards authority, since almost all conspiracy theories paint a picture of an evil authority of some kind victimizing, manipulating, harming and/or deceiving a large segment of the population. With the conspiracy theorist in the role of the One Hero Who Knows The Truth, whose eyes are open unlike the "sheople." (I hate that term. So much.)


My personal hypothesis (though IANA psychologist) is that people prefer to live in a world governed by an evil power than in a world where bad stuff happens just because. In D&D terms, people would rather live in a Lawful Evil universe than in a Chaotic Neutral one.

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby Diadem » Fri Apr 25, 2014 7:59 am UTC

WilliamLehnsherr wrote:But, and I'm getting a bit off topic here, I don't see what's wrong with the eggshell skull rule. At least in tort law. If you hurt someone, you shouldn't be able to just say "well, I didn't know they had an eggshell skull so I shouldn't have to compensate them".

It is wrong because punishment should fit the crime. Proportionality is the essence of justice. Two people who do the same thing under similar circumstances (and with similar backgrounds etc) should receive the same punishment, and this punishment should be more severe than what is given for a less serious offence, and less severe than the punishment for a more serious crime.

By looking at consequences rather than acts, this is lost. Imagine two drunk drivers hitting a bicyclist on a deserted road. Both drivers drive on after the accident. In one case however, a random passerby happens to spot the bicyclist, calls an ambulance, and they are saved. In the second case, no one passes by for many hours, and the bicyclist dies. Does this mean the second drunk driver committed a worse crime? It doesn't. Both should receive equal punishment.

I admit that this reasoning is not entirely ironclad. You can't entirely avoid looking at consequences. A third drunk driver who didn't hit a bicyclist probably should get a lesser punishment. I'm not entirely sure how and where those lines should be drawn. But in general it is definitely a good principle to try to keep punishments close to the severity of the crime, and not the severity of the consequences.

Jave D wrote:So, in Minnesota. Guy on trial for murder, just for defending his life!

Of course, reading the article, it seems a little less clear. (...)

I understand the need and importance of self-defense, but all this seems a bit far too me. A bit crossing of the line. A bit, dare I say, bloody-minded and insane.

Am I missing some sarcasm here, or are you serious? A little less clear? He shot both of them when they posed absolutely no threat to him and he knew they posed no threat to him. He even deliberately executed the girl after he had initially only wounded her. And his actions beforehand clearly show that killing them both was his intention the moment he realized someone was breaking in. If that's only slightly crossing the line, what does it take to cross it completely?
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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby solune » Fri Apr 25, 2014 8:33 am UTC

yurell wrote:Personally, I don't think that the Eggshell Skull doctrine is wrong (although feel free to convince me), but either way I don't think this is a case of it — by making the call he had to be aware that a police response would be launched, and being forced to recompense the state for paying for such a response made to a fraudulent claim seems reasonable. Yes, he may have been ignorant of the cost of the response when he made the call, but simply not knowing what the cost of an expectable response is doesn't make it an Eggshell Skull case.


Ok, let me modify my position slightly : I believe he should be asked to pay what a reasonable police intervention would have cost, and send him to prison for a week to teach him the seriousness of the act. But bankrupting him for the rest of his life is not a constructive solution.

Spoiler:
And the gun lobby should pay for the overcost of having a SWAT team in the first place.

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby Djehutynakht » Fri Apr 25, 2014 8:52 am UTC

In all honesty, from reading this he seems a little.... how do I say this... certifiably insane.

In any case, I'm all for being able to defend oneself and one's property when needed (though I'm significantly more hesitant on killing someone over property) but he demonstrates going way overboard. They did break in, and, sure, all intruders are potentially dangerous, but his actions demonstrate remarkable overboardness on levels I can't even begin to elaborate on.

He's definitely guilty of going above "self-defense".

However, he honestly might just be flat out nuts. He sounds a bit like a serial killer, though at the very least, paranoid.

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby Red Hal » Fri Apr 25, 2014 9:22 am UTC

I ... what? I feel a sense of revulsion at this story. Even if I was in favour of the castle doctrine, which I'm not, there is no possible way to justify firing a "killing shot" if the unarmed intruder is lying on the floor bleeding out. Smith should have been on the phone to 911 the moment he fired the first shot, and then spent the time before the ambulance arrived trying to keep these human beings alive.

Ideally, of course, there would have been no shots at all.
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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby speising » Fri Apr 25, 2014 9:52 am UTC

solune wrote:
yurell wrote:Personally, I don't think that the Eggshell Skull doctrine is wrong (although feel free to convince me), but either way I don't think this is a case of it — by making the call he had to be aware that a police response would be launched, and being forced to recompense the state for paying for such a response made to a fraudulent claim seems reasonable. Yes, he may have been ignorant of the cost of the response when he made the call, but simply not knowing what the cost of an expectable response is doesn't make it an Eggshell Skull case.


Ok, let me modify my position slightly : I believe he should be asked to pay what a reasonable police intervention would have cost, and send him to prison for a week to teach him the seriousness of the act. But bankrupting him for the rest of his life is not a constructive solution.

Spoiler:
And the gun lobby should pay for the overcost of having a SWAT team in the first place.


i wouldn't think the doctrine applies here, anyway. what happened was reasonably predictable. only if the police had killed the victim of his "prank" and then he'd got charged with murder.

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby WilliamLehnsherr » Fri Apr 25, 2014 11:23 am UTC

Diadem wrote:
WilliamLehnsherr wrote:But, and I'm getting a bit off topic here, I don't see what's wrong with the eggshell skull rule. At least in tort law. If you hurt someone, you shouldn't be able to just say "well, I didn't know they had an eggshell skull so I shouldn't have to compensate them".

It is wrong because punishment should fit the crime. Proportionality is the essence of justice. Two people who do the same thing under similar circumstances (and with similar backgrounds etc) should receive the same punishment, and this punishment should be more severe than what is given for a less serious offence, and less severe than the punishment for a more serious crime.

By looking at consequences rather than acts, this is lost. Imagine two drunk drivers hitting a bicyclist on a deserted road. Both drivers drive on after the accident. In one case however, a random passerby happens to spot the bicyclist, calls an ambulance, and they are saved. In the second case, no one passes by for many hours, and the bicyclist dies. Does this mean the second drunk driver committed a worse crime? It doesn't. Both should receive equal punishment.

I admit that this reasoning is not entirely ironclad. You can't entirely avoid looking at consequences. A third drunk driver who didn't hit a bicyclist probably should get a lesser punishment. I'm not entirely sure how and where those lines should be drawn. But in general it is definitely a good principle to try to keep punishments close to the severity of the crime, and not the severity of the consequences.


Don't worry, I see your point here. I mean, I started a topic on the serious business board explaining why I think that attempted murder should (in some cases) be considered as bad as murder.

I mainly know of the eggshell skull rule being applied in tort law. I know similar principles are used in criminal law, but I've never heard the actual term used outside of tort law. (Anyone want to show me otherwise?) In torts, compensation should be based on the outcome. The drunk driver who only grazes the pedestrian shouldn't have to pay as much compensation as the drunk driver who paralysed the pedestrian.

Of course, in regards to the swatting story, paying back the $100,000 would be a criminal matter and I sort of agree with other posters who have said it wouldn't apply anyway (though I can definitely think of some arguments for its application). So like I said this is getting a bit off-topic. I wouldn't be surprised if the victims of this prank filed a civil suit, though.

In an attempt to remain on topic, $100,000? Seriously? Was $100,000 lost as a result of this, or does that figure include expenses that would have been incurred anyway (like the cost of weapons and shields, etc.)?
Last edited by WilliamLehnsherr on Fri Apr 25, 2014 11:41 am UTC, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby Chen » Fri Apr 25, 2014 11:37 am UTC

WilliamLehnsherr wrote:In an attempt to remain on topic, $100,000? Seriously? Was $100,000 lost as a result of this, or does that figure include expenses that would have been incurred anyway (like the cost of weapons and shields, etc.)?


Note it wasn't just a SWAT team. The prank said he had killed his mother and brother, so ambulances were also sent (presumably with hopes the people werent really dead), a negotiator and presumably regular police officers as well. The article says 70 heavily armed officers were there. That's a pretty crazy number to begin with.

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby yurell » Fri Apr 25, 2014 11:44 am UTC

WilliamLehnsherr wrote:I mainly know of the eggshell skull rule being applied in tort law. I know similar principles are used in criminal law, but I've never heard the actual term used outside of tort law. (Anyone want to show me otherwise?)


You're quite right in that respect.
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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby CorruptUser » Fri Apr 25, 2014 12:15 pm UTC

Wait, a double homocide requires 70 cops to deal with?

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby Djehutynakht » Fri Apr 25, 2014 12:52 pm UTC

Not necessarily, but it was an active situation. Discovering a crime scene post ipso facto might not warrant a huge team, but an in-progress crisis might.


In other news:

Man on trial for murder gets permission to hide huge "MURDER" tattoo during trial.

Long story short: Man accused of Murder has the word "MURDER" tattooed across in huge letters backwards across his neck.
State won't allow him to get it removed (tattoo artists can't go to him in prison) so they've agreed to let him wear a turtleneck instead to his trial.

Which is in August.

This should be fun.

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby CorruptUser » Fri Apr 25, 2014 1:19 pm UTC

Never get a tattoo that would hurt you in court.

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby Mutex » Fri Apr 25, 2014 1:22 pm UTC

That's inspired me to get my "I definitely did it" tattoo removed from my forehead. You never know.

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby Whizbang » Fri Apr 25, 2014 1:25 pm UTC

Magnanimous wrote:I almost want to set up a system where everyone secretly gets their own harmless shadowy conspiracy to defeat via whatever skill they're best at. Then they won't have to make up conspiracies and still feel like a hero. Ideally the actual meta-conspiracy stays hidden.

It's like living in a sci-fi utopia - if you were born there it doesn't seem that great, but if everyone goes through some hardship to enter they'll appreciate it more.


Isn't that the Matrix?

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby CorruptUser » Fri Apr 25, 2014 1:29 pm UTC

That should've been the matrix sequels, where it turned out everyone was in their own personal paradise, but it was causing humanity to die off because everyone was to busy playing video games to save the real world. But nooo, people clearly came for the Kung fu and not the sci fi philosophical mind screws. Thus, the sequels.

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby CorruptUser » Fri Apr 25, 2014 2:35 pm UTC

Clive Bundy, master of rhetoric.

I like at the end where he says that (paraphrasing) "if those people get offended at 'negro' or 'boy' or 'slave', it's Martin Luther King's fault".

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby elasto » Fri Apr 25, 2014 2:38 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:That should've been the matrix sequels, where it turned out everyone was in their own personal paradise, but it was causing humanity to die off because everyone was to busy playing video games to save the real world. But nooo, people clearly came for the Kung fu and not the sci fi philosophical mind screws. Thus, the sequels.

To be fair, Matrix 2 had its fair share of philosophy too, it was just inconsequential and incoherent babbling.

The ending of Matrix 2 was a great mind-f*ck though: Are they still inside the matrix? Is there one matrix nested inside another (inside another)?

Matrix 3 was the big let-down. Such a huge waste of such a promising setup.

(And, yeah, your suggestion of everyone being the God of their own world would have made for a better concept than what they had...)

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items, etc)

Postby Tyndmyr » Fri Apr 25, 2014 3:56 pm UTC

solune wrote:
yurell wrote:Personally, I don't think that the Eggshell Skull doctrine is wrong (although feel free to convince me), but either way I don't think this is a case of it — by making the call he had to be aware that a police response would be launched, and being forced to recompense the state for paying for such a response made to a fraudulent claim seems reasonable. Yes, he may have been ignorant of the cost of the response when he made the call, but simply not knowing what the cost of an expectable response is doesn't make it an Eggshell Skull case.


Ok, let me modify my position slightly : I believe he should be asked to pay what a reasonable police intervention would have cost, and send him to prison for a week to teach him the seriousness of the act. But bankrupting him for the rest of his life is not a constructive solution.

Spoiler:
And the gun lobby should pay for the overcost of having a SWAT team in the first place.


Aw, you were doing so good until the spoiled bit.

Pro-gun people are also a wee bit worried about the over-militarization of stupid law enforcement things. They pass around facebook memes and the like showing ludicrous over-reactions, usually with a subtext of "they don't trust us with a goddamned handgun, but THEY have enough weaponry to take over a small country".

I'm ok with a fine for causing police to misuse resources, though. A moderate fine, just as we have for shoplifting and so forth. A certain degree of judge discretion could be involved, but it shouldn't be "whatever the cops want to spend".

As for the dude who shot the intruders...the waiting the full day is worrying. Yeah, maybe a legitimate self defense case or whatever COULD have an asshole defendent without sympathy...but if you had a legit self defense situation, you generally want to call the police as soon as possible. And the video just sounds horrifying. Nothing wrong with having a security camera, but this guy sounds like a psychopath. Self defense is an affirmative defense. That SHOULD fail, unless there are very, very significant unreported details.

Castle doctrine or no, you can't justify "finishing shots" as necessary to prevent a felony. What were the victims gonna do, bleed on him?


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