16 Year old charged with murder after cop shoots his friend

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Re: 16 Year old charged with murder after cop shoots his fri

Postby sourmìlk » Sat May 28, 2011 5:09 pm UTC

RockoTDF wrote:I'm not sure how we can call this murder. Yes, the kid was indirectly responsible for the death. It is at worst involuntary manslaughter.

It makes no sense that a drunk driver can kill someone and get manslaughter for a decision that is a more "direct", yet someone else shot this kid and he has to get murder for it.

The whole thing is an entire slap in the face to punishment fitting the crime, and I hope that some level of Supreme Court strikes it down as unconstitutional. To be honest, it makes almost as much sense as arresting drug users for murder because of the actions of the cartels that sell the drugs.


So are you against the idea of felony murder in general, or just in this application?
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Re: 16 Year old charged with murder after cop shoots his fri

Postby legopelle » Sat May 28, 2011 5:24 pm UTC

sourmìlk wrote:As a 16 year old, I'm kind of offended by the amount of patronization that's going around here. At my age, should we really not know better than to commit armed robbery and point a gun at a cop? Although teenagers are arguably more prone to making this kind of stupid decision, I don't think they grasped the potential consequences of their actions any less than an adult, and if they did, the shouldn't have. I am totally okay with somebody my age being tried as an adult for armed robbery and murder: I wouldn't expect anything less for myself.

I know, right? When I was 16 I couldn't understand why I wasn't allowed to drive, marry, make binding contracts, drink alcohol, etc. I had the mental capacity to do those things. But then I aged. Now I'm 19, just three years older, but I can already see how narrow minded and foolish I was at that age. The mental evolution takes a giant leap when you're a teenager. A few tears really does makes a difference.

But I can sympathize with you. It's not fun to be discriminated, even by age.
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Re: 16 Year old charged with murder after cop shoots his fri

Postby RockoTDF » Sat May 28, 2011 5:48 pm UTC

sourmìlk wrote:
So are you against the idea of felony murder in general, or just in this application?


This application. I'm not sure what I said that would suggest that I'm against felony murder.

legopelle wrote:
sourmìlk wrote:As a 16 year old, I'm kind of offended by the amount of patronization that's going around here. At my age, should we really not know better than to commit armed robbery and point a gun at a cop? Although teenagers are arguably more prone to making this kind of stupid decision, I don't think they grasped the potential consequences of their actions any less than an adult, and if they did, the shouldn't have. I am totally okay with somebody my age being tried as an adult for armed robbery and murder: I wouldn't expect anything less for myself.

I know, right? When I was 16 I couldn't understand why I wasn't allowed to drive, marry, make binding contracts, drink alcohol, etc. I had the mental capacity to do those things. But then I aged. Now I'm 19, just three years older, but I can already see how narrow minded and foolish I was at that age. The mental evolution takes a giant leap when you're a teenager. A few tears really does makes a difference.

But I can sympathize with you. It's not fun to be discriminated, even by age.


And as a 24 year old, I realize how foolish I was at 19. And the cycle continues.

Sourmilk: Also, keep in mind that age laws have to be somewhat one size fits all. A kid that grows up in one socioeconomic group may have better role models that can explain right and wrong (among a plethora of other differences). Since you are 16 and posting on the fora I'd be willing to bet that you are of a higher socioeconomic status than these boys. You probably don't know people that have reaped the benefits of crime, you know people that have reaped the benefits of education, for example.

Someone from your socioeconomic group might find armed robbery shocking. Someone who is poor might find white collar crime shocking: stealing so that a rich person can be even richer.
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Re: 16 Year old charged with murder after cop shoots his fri

Postby sourmìlk » Sat May 28, 2011 5:51 pm UTC

legopelle wrote:
sourmìlk wrote:As a 16 year old, I'm kind of offended by the amount of patronization that's going around here. At my age, should we really not know better than to commit armed robbery and point a gun at a cop? Although teenagers are arguably more prone to making this kind of stupid decision, I don't think they grasped the potential consequences of their actions any less than an adult, and if they did, the shouldn't have. I am totally okay with somebody my age being tried as an adult for armed robbery and murder: I wouldn't expect anything less for myself.

I know, right? When I was 16 I couldn't understand why I wasn't allowed to drive, marry, make binding contracts, drink alcohol, etc. I had the mental capacity to do those things.


Are you saying that 16 year olds are too stupid to understand that armed robbery is bad?
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Re: 16 Year old charged with murder after cop shoots his fri

Postby legopelle » Sat May 28, 2011 5:58 pm UTC

RockoTDF wrote:And as a 24 year old, I realize how foolish I was at 19. And the cycle continues.

Thank you. I'm looking forward to it. :D

Sourmilk: Also, keep in mind that age laws have to be somewhat one size fits all. A kid that grows up in one socioeconomic group may have better role models that can explain right and wrong (among a plethora of other differences). Since you are 16 and posting on the fora I'd be willing to bet that you are of a higher socioeconomic status than these boys. You probably don't know people that have reaped the benefits of crime, you know people that have reaped the benefits of education, for example.

Someone from your socioeconomic group might find armed robbery shocking. Someone who is poor might find white collar crime shocking: stealing so that a rich person can be even richer.

Good point. It could be argued that the society's structure influences these actions more then their own mental growth. I'm not alien to the idea that I could have been like them if I wasn't so fortunate. And that in turn is an argument for focus on rehabilitation and improvement over deterrent and punishment.
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Re: 16 Year old charged with murder after cop shoots his fri

Postby sourmìlk » Sat May 28, 2011 6:03 pm UTC

Being poor doesn't excuse you from not considering the morality of your actions.
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Re: 16 Year old charged with murder after cop shoots his fri

Postby legopelle » Sat May 28, 2011 6:08 pm UTC

sourmìlk wrote:Being poor doesn't excuse you from not considering the morality of your actions.

Of course not, but it definitely makes your options limited. Something that should be considered.

And my point wasn't that they were free from guilt, but that the social structure has much more of an impact then the perceived morality of the individual.
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Re: 16 Year old charged with murder after cop shoots his fri

Postby sourmìlk » Sat May 28, 2011 6:13 pm UTC

legopelle wrote:
sourmìlk wrote:Being poor doesn't excuse you from not considering the morality of your actions.

Of course not, but it definitely makes your options limited. Something that should be considered.

No. Poverty isn't an excuse to attack somebody. Especially in a country with food stamps and welfare.

And my point wasn't that they were free from guilt, but that the social structure has much more of an impact then the perceived morality of the individual.

The legal system does not and should not have tolerance for moral relativism.
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Re: 16 Year old charged with murder after cop shoots his fri

Postby legopelle » Sat May 28, 2011 6:38 pm UTC

sourmìlk wrote:No. Poverty isn't an excuse to attack somebody. Especially in a country with food stamps and welfare.

I didn't say that, I tell you. And don't assume USA has a perfect welfare. The class differences are too great. Which brings me to the next point:

The legal system does not and should not have tolerance for moral relativism.

What? Of course it should. Otherwise murder and manslaughter would be the same thing.
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Re: 16 Year old charged with murder after cop shoots his fri

Postby Vash » Sat May 28, 2011 6:56 pm UTC

LtNOWIS wrote:The kid's got a number of prior offenses and was already facing prosecution for more at the time. It's not a single bad decision.


Like it would need to be a single bad decision for what I said to be relevant. What difference would that possibly make?

sourmìlk wrote:Not only that, but it's demeaning to the victim to call this a "stupid decision." It wasn't, it was a crime. Yes, I know that 16 year olds generally do not have fully developed morality or intelligence, but they should have the necessary moral sense and intelligence to know that armed robbery is a bad thing.


It may be demeaning to say "stupid" if taken literally, but that's not how I meant it. What I do mean literally is that 16-year-olds actually don't have the social judgment of 17-year-olds, who don't have the social judgment of 18-year-olds, etc. till about 26. There's no point in punishing people for no effect, not as a deterrent, for making bad choices that got them into situations where they commit crime. It won't do anything. It won't have an effect. We can do things that have no effect, but why? Just why? Same goes for punishing the mentally ill.


skeptical scientist wrote:When you choose to commit a crime which has a significant chance of ending with someone's death, and someone dies, I don't think it's unreasonable to call it murder. That is the basis for the felony murder rule, and I think it's a legitimate one. Whether it should apply in this case? That's for a jury to decide.


Then let's throw out assault as a crime altogether. Everything is murder.

The point is that the risk was lower, and the result was not what we consider murder. It's not murder.

You act like he's going to spend the rest of his life in prison, when a) he hasn't even been convicted of anything yet, and b) if he is convicted under the felony murder rule (which is far from certain), we don't know what the penalty will be.


It's very unlikely that he'll get off on armed robbery. I am acting like it is certain because it is. I am not acting like he will spend the rest of his life in prison. Nor does that need to be true for punishment to be sufficient.

I really don't know enough about the differences between adult and juvenile justice to know what the pros and cons are of trying someone in the adult vs. the juvenile justice system. That said, 16 is close enough to legal adulthood that I don't find it unreasonable, as I suspect there's not a whole lot of difference between a 16-year-old committing an armed robbery and an 18-year-old committing an armed robbery.


There's actually a HUGE difference. In fact, there's a big difference between an 18-year-old and a 20-year-old committing an armed robbery (not as big as 16 to 18, but still big), but I won't get into that too much. 18 is already a low limit for leniency.

16-year-olds can be responsible for their actions. Some degree of leniency is reasonable, but I'm not sure if it should extend to armed robbery, particularly when the outcome was someone's death.


You don't get it. The point of punishment is either deterrence or modifying someone's behavior. That is questionable in this case. There is no point. You can hold people "responsible" arbitrarily, which is what you seem to be implying in the first statement (in quotations, because it really just means worthy of punishment how most people use it). There's no point. No meaningful effect.

As a 16-year-old, I was perfectly ... to someone's death).


What story of a 16-year old criminal have you heard that has gone like: "So, I was in Honors Geometry class at my private high school. One day, I decided I needed a little extra spending money. So, I started asking around for criminal elements, and found myself a gun. Yesterday I was in Honors Geometry class, but now it's time to rob someone." You create laws and standards for punishment based on the people you are applying it to, not the people you aren't. That is, if you want to have any effect.

Were I on the jury, I'm not sure whether I would find the kid guilty of murder under the felony murder rule. I would undoubtedly be more inclined to leniency on the basis of the accused's age. But I wouldn't rule it out solely on the basis of age either, and would want to hear testimony on both sides before making up my mind.


That's just striking a moderate stance.
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Re: 16 Year old charged with murder after cop shoots his fri

Postby Radical_Initiator » Sat May 28, 2011 7:05 pm UTC

Vash wrote:That's just striking a moderate stance.


What? Who did that? Reasonable positions aren't allowed here!

Goddamn hippies. Next thing you know, they'll be demanding civil debate.
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Re: 16 Year old charged with murder after cop shoots his fri

Postby Vash » Sat May 28, 2011 7:07 pm UTC

Radical_Initiator wrote:
Vash wrote:That's just striking a moderate stance.


What? Who did that? Reasonable positions aren't allowed here!


Moderation is an easy way to get a more reasonable position, imo. Moderation isn't reasonable if it is wrong, though. It's also arbitrary. Moderation in this conversation is different from moderation in any other conversation. What's more productive is to reevaluate our own judgments and try to improve them.

I could also just see that as being his best judgment. It wasn't bad. I still don't see what circumstances a 16-year-old could be held equally accountable in. Perhaps a rigorous demonstration of equivalent judgment, but short of that, there is no exception. As far as I can tell, it's just when one's hatred finally overwhelms one's reason.

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Re: 16 Year old charged with murder after cop shoots his fri

Postby Lucrece » Sat May 28, 2011 7:18 pm UTC

They probably charged him with the highest charges possible so they can later negotiate down with a guilty plead. I doubt many lawyers will be willing to give a vigorous defense for someone guilty of armed robbery-- juries aren't very sympathetic to that.
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Re: 16 Year old charged with murder after cop shoots his fri

Postby Vash » Sat May 28, 2011 7:31 pm UTC

Lucrece wrote:They probably charged him with the highest charges possible so they can later negotiate down with a guilty plead. I doubt many lawyers will be willing to give a vigorous defense for someone guilty of armed robbery-- juries aren't very sympathetic to that.


Why try this adolescent as an adult in the first place, though?

No one likes armed robbery. Not at all. lol.

Also, sometimes, excessive laws like that DO get people. We must not forget that.

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Re: 16 Year old charged with murder after cop shoots his fri

Postby Lucrece » Sat May 28, 2011 7:56 pm UTC

Vash wrote:
Lucrece wrote:They probably charged him with the highest charges possible so they can later negotiate down with a guilty plead. I doubt many lawyers will be willing to give a vigorous defense for someone guilty of armed robbery-- juries aren't very sympathetic to that.


Why try this adolescent as an adult in the first place, though?

No one likes armed robbery. Not at all. lol.

Also, sometimes, excessive laws like that DO get people. We must not forget that.



Can't say the idea bothers me when said adolescent would've hardly backed down from shooting the victim dead if personal property was refused. Being at the other end of a gun is not a pretty picture. The whole crime seemed pretty adult to me -- they didn't forcefully steal or trick or scam someone like some adolescent would do; they threatened death.

With that said, it makes little sense that he would be charged for his friend's death. Even laws where if one of the accomplices dies, the other gets charged with murder reek of "You made the police go through the PR/bureaucratic troubles of shooting a criminal dead, so we're going to punish you out of spite for inconveniencing us."
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Re: 16 Year old charged with murder after cop shoots his fri

Postby Vash » Sat May 28, 2011 8:13 pm UTC

Lucrece wrote:Can't say the idea bothers me when said adolescent would've hardly backed down from shooting the victim dead if personal property was refused. Being at the other end of a gun is not a pretty picture. The whole crime seemed pretty adult to me -- they didn't forcefully steal or trick or scam someone like some adolescent would do; they threatened death.

With that said, it makes little sense that he would be charged for his friend's death. Even laws where if one of the accomplices dies, the other gets charged with murder reek of "You made the police go through the PR/bureaucratic troubles of shooting a criminal dead, so we're going to punish you out of spite for inconveniencing us."


The only bearing adolescence has is the development of judgment, not the extremity. Sending a 16-year-old to prison for 20 years is not a pretty picture either.

Yeah, that it s true.

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Re: 16 Year old charged with murder after cop shoots his fri

Postby legopelle » Sat May 28, 2011 8:15 pm UTC

Lucrece wrote:Can't say the idea bothers me when said adolescent would've hardly backed down from shooting the victim dead if personal property was refused. Being at the other end of a gun is not a pretty picture. The whole crime seemed pretty adult to me -- they didn't forcefully steal or trick or scam someone like some adolescent would do; they threatened death.

Wouldn't it be more like an adolescent to choose the easy way, the death threat, over the relatively complicated tricking or stealing? Scamming requires experience a adolescent probably doesn't have.
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Re: 16 Year old charged with murder after cop shoots his fri

Postby sourmìlk » Sat May 28, 2011 11:52 pm UTC

legopelle wrote:
Lucrece wrote:Can't say the idea bothers me when said adolescent would've hardly backed down from shooting the victim dead if personal property was refused. Being at the other end of a gun is not a pretty picture. The whole crime seemed pretty adult to me -- they didn't forcefully steal or trick or scam someone like some adolescent would do; they threatened death.

Wouldn't it be more like an adolescent to choose the easy way, the death threat, over the relatively complicated tricking or stealing? Scamming requires experience a adolescent probably doesn't have.


This still misses the point: the kids should be charged as adults because they should have understood how armed robbery is wrong.
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Re: 16 Year old charged with murder after cop shoots his fri

Postby amnotyoursavior » Sat May 28, 2011 11:58 pm UTC

A cop that kills a person "out of fear" is clearly not a good cop. If you are afraid of some teenagers go get an office job and get the hell out of the streets.

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Re: 16 Year old charged with murder after cop shoots his fri

Postby sourmìlk » Sun May 29, 2011 12:00 am UTC

amnotyoursavior wrote:A cop that kills a person "out of fear" is clearly not a good cop. If you are afraid of some teenagers go get an office job and get the hell out of the streets.


So, if somebody pulled a gun on you what would you do?
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Re: 16 Year old charged with murder after cop shoots his fri

Postby amnotyoursavior » Sun May 29, 2011 12:04 am UTC

sourmìlk wrote:
amnotyoursavior wrote:A cop that kills a person "out of fear" is clearly not a good cop. If you are afraid of some teenagers go get an office job and get the hell out of the streets.


So, if somebody pulled a gun on you what would you do?


that's a pretty generic assumption, it depends on the place and the situation.

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Re: 16 Year old charged with murder after cop shoots his fri

Postby sourmìlk » Sun May 29, 2011 12:07 am UTC

amnotyoursavior wrote:
sourmìlk wrote:
amnotyoursavior wrote:A cop that kills a person "out of fear" is clearly not a good cop. If you are afraid of some teenagers go get an office job and get the hell out of the streets.


So, if somebody pulled a gun on you what would you do?


that's a pretty generic assumption, it depends on the place and the situation.


So, if somebody pulled a gun on you in the middle of an armed robbery, what would you do?
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Re: 16 Year old charged with murder after cop shoots his fri

Postby amnotyoursavior » Sun May 29, 2011 12:09 am UTC

sourmìlk wrote:
amnotyoursavior wrote:
sourmìlk wrote:
amnotyoursavior wrote:A cop that kills a person "out of fear" is clearly not a good cop. If you are afraid of some teenagers go get an office job and get the hell out of the streets.


So, if somebody pulled a gun on you what would you do?


that's a pretty generic assumption, it depends on the place and the situation.


So, if somebody pulled a gun on you in the middle of an armed robbery, what would you do?


You only gave me a situation.

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Re: 16 Year old charged with murder after cop shoots his fri

Postby sourmìlk » Sun May 29, 2011 12:12 am UTC

the 7000 block of South Crieger Avenue, Chicago.
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Re: 16 Year old charged with murder after cop shoots his fri

Postby amnotyoursavior » Sun May 29, 2011 12:16 am UTC

ok, here's what i would do

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Re: 16 Year old charged with murder after cop shoots his fri

Postby sourmìlk » Sun May 29, 2011 12:36 am UTC

amnotyoursavior wrote:ok, here's what i would do

Are you saying you wouldn't do anything, or did you hit "submit" too early?
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Re: 16 Year old charged with murder after cop shoots his fri

Postby Vash » Sun May 29, 2011 12:51 am UTC

sourmìlk wrote:This still misses the point: the kids should be charged as adults because they should have understood how armed robbery is wrong.


That is exactly where the judgment issue comes in. You can't hold the judgments of a 16-year-old to the same standard as an 18-year-old. Even social understanding is not as developed. The judgment is worse. The understanding is worse. There is much more room for error. That is not to say that some 16-year-olds are not more developed than their peers, or in some cases, even more so than adults. In general, it's a solid rule to follow, however.

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Re: 16 Year old charged with murder after cop shoots his fri

Postby sourmìlk » Sun May 29, 2011 12:56 am UTC

Vash wrote:
sourmìlk wrote:This still misses the point: the kids should be charged as adults because they should have understood how armed robbery is wrong.


That is exactly where the judgment issue comes in. You can't hold the judgments of a 16-year-old to the same standard as an 18-year-old. Even social understanding is not as developed. The judgment is worse. The understanding is worse. There is much more room for error. That is not to say that some 16-year-olds are not more developed than their peers, or in some cases, even more so than adults. In general, it's a solid rule to follow, however.


Of course 16 year olds can't exercise judgment that's as good as that of adults. But my point is that a 16-year-old's judgment should be sufficient not to make the decision to rob somebody at gunpoint.
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Re: 16 Year old charged with murder after cop shoots his fri

Postby Aetius » Sun May 29, 2011 3:32 am UTC

Malice wrote:The oddity is that the death happened as a result of the police action, not the robbery. The argument that they're putting across here is tenuous at best.


CorruptUser wrote:Except this wasn't a death during the committing of a felony; this was a death after the felony was committed. Otherwise you could argue the butterfly effect and charge him for half the deaths for the next decade.


Pointing a gun at a police officer during an attempt to escape definitely meets the definition of "during or in furtherance of the crime"

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Re: 16 Year old charged with murder after cop shoots his fri

Postby buddy431 » Sun May 29, 2011 4:01 am UTC

Aetius wrote:
Malice wrote:The oddity is that the death happened as a result of the police action, not the robbery. The argument that they're putting across here is tenuous at best.


CorruptUser wrote:Except this wasn't a death during the committing of a felony; this was a death after the felony was committed. Otherwise you could argue the butterfly effect and charge him for half the deaths for the next decade.


Pointing a gun at a police officer during an attempt to escape definitely meets the definition of "during or in furtherance of the crime"


The kid who is charged with murder did not point a gun at a police officer. The kid being charged with murder was not even touching a gun.
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Re: 16 Year old charged with murder after cop shoots his fri

Postby skeptical scientist » Sun May 29, 2011 5:18 am UTC

Vash wrote:
skepsci wrote:I suspect there's not a whole lot of difference between a 16-year-old committing an armed robbery and an 18-year-old committing an armed robbery.

There's actually a HUGE difference.

What is your basis for this? As I already said, my basis is recollections of myself at 16 and at 18. That's anecdotal to be sure, so if you have evidence to the contrary, let's hear it. Why is a 16-year-old armed robber less of a threat to society than an 18-year-old armed robber? Alternatively, why is a 16-year-old less likely to be affected by the deterrent effect of the threat of prison than an 18-year-old?

Vash wrote:
skepsci wrote:As a 16-year-old, I was perfectly ... to someone's death).

What story of a 16-year old criminal have you heard that has gone like: "So, I was in Honors Geometry class at my private high school. One day, I decided I needed a little extra spending money. So, I started asking around for criminal elements, and found myself a gun. Yesterday I was in Honors Geometry class, but now it's time to rob someone." You create laws and standards for punishment based on the people you are applying it to, not the people you aren't. That is, if you want to have any effect.

Calculus, actually, but I don't see the relevance. Yes, this kid lived in a poor community, and had many fewer options than I did at his age. But regardless of that, he still obviously knew what he was doing was wrong, and chose to commit the crime anyways. Most 16-year-olds, regardless of economic circumstances, somehow still manage not to threaten people at gunpoint.
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Re: 16 Year old charged with murder after cop shoots his fri

Postby Aetius » Sun May 29, 2011 5:21 am UTC

buddy431 wrote:The kid who is charged with murder did not point a gun at a police officer. The kid being charged with murder was not even touching a gun.


I am aware of that, however the litmus test for felony murder is:
a) Whether the individual being charged was a participant in a felony, usually one that is inherently dangerous (he was)
b) Whether a death resulted during or in furtherance of that felony (it did)

Others had argued that the felony and the attempted apprehension by the police were entirely separate, and thus the defendant's participation in the first felony does not extend his felony murder liability to the death that occurred during the attempted apprehension. I argued that the death resulted from an attempted (violent) escape that was in furtherance of the original felony, and thus still falls under the felony murder umbrella.

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Re: 16 Year old charged with murder after cop shoots his fri

Postby mike-l » Sun May 29, 2011 8:31 am UTC

As a thought experiment, what if the suspects had split up, and one was caught and killed while he attempted to escape. Would the above argument still apply?

What if they both got away, and later the police tracked one of them to their homes, at which point the suspect produced a weapon and was killed in a standoff with police, should the other be charged with felony murder in that case?

(For the record, I think it's perfectly fine if the answer to both those is no while still applying felony murder to this particular case)

To sourmilk, it's not like not charging him as an adult means he gets off, he does have the mental capacity to know what he did was wrong and so would be punished for it, but in a way that's consistent with how the country thinks is best to deal with people who are still developing mentally, morally, and socially.

Bright Shadows wrote:
skeptical scientist wrote:
mike-l wrote:Odd law, but I'm having trouble finding sympathy for the accused. He did something really dumb and dangerous, and it caused someone to die. While I'm not sure that he should be legally responsible, he certainly bears a great deal of the moral blame.

I have no problem with the felony murder rule for exactly this reason.

The reason that the quoted later retracted because of misreading?


I didn't retract the quote, I could have edited it out, but I left it in because I do think it's still relevant as to why the law should exist. I only said that after my misreading was corrected that I don't think it should apply in this particular case.

Personally, I think that even if the events of the robbery and the confrontation with police were not separate crimes, the latter marks an escalation, which (based on the information in the article) the accused was not a major part of, which is why I don't think it should apply here. I may be wrong though, and the details of the case are minimal enough from the article, so it's probably not unreasonable for it to go to trial and let a jury with more information decide.
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Re: 16 Year old charged with murder after cop shoots his fri

Postby Vash » Sun May 29, 2011 10:08 am UTC

What is your basis for this?


50 years of behavioral and brain research. You are questioning the most basic of the basic.

As I already said, my basis is recollections of myself at 16 and at 18. That's anecdotal to be sure, so if you have evidence to the contrary, let's hear it.


You were never in a situation where crime would have come up as a choice. That's all. I already made that point.

Why is a ... than an 18-year-old?


I didn't say that, only that punishing people for their brain development is ineffective.

Vash wrote:Calculus, ... at gunpoint.


Why do you take for granted that this 16-year-old knew it was wrong at all? How do you know he didn't think it was the right thing to do for his criminal friends? Aside from that, if he was unable to refrain from immoral choices due to poor judgment and self-regulation, that is exactly what you would expect in a 16-year-old.

A large proportion of teenagers from certain socioeconomic situations tend to (or commit other crimes). Even if you claim that it doesn't explain everything, it is a significant enough factor that the punishment should be reduced. I'm not saying zero responsibility. I'm saying it does not make sense to try 16-year-olds as adults. I also don't think it makes sense to try 18-year-olds like 26-year-olds, but that's a point for another day.

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Re: 16 Year old charged with murder after cop shoots his fri

Postby johnny_7713 » Sun May 29, 2011 11:50 am UTC

Aetius wrote:
buddy431 wrote:The kid who is charged with murder did not point a gun at a police officer. The kid being charged with murder was not even touching a gun.


I am aware of that, however the litmus test for felony murder is:
a) Whether the individual being charged was a participant in a felony, usually one that is inherently dangerous (he was)
b) Whether a death resulted during or in furtherance of that felony (it did)

Others had argued that the felony and the attempted apprehension by the police were entirely separate, and thus the defendant's participation in the first felony does not extend his felony murder liability to the death that occurred during the attempted apprehension. I argued that the death resulted from an attempted (violent) escape that was in furtherance of the original felony, and thus still falls under the felony murder umbrella.


By that litmus test the dead boy would be just as guilty of felony murder since he was in participant in a felony during which a death resulted.

IMO felony murder should be applied if an innocent victim / bystander dies, not if one of the participants dies, and especially not if that death is the result of police shooting. Felony murder rules are there because we upgrade the severity of an action because it was taken during a felony. E.g. what might otherwise have been considered manslaughter is now considered murder because it was committed in the course of a felony.
From the information given the defendant did not take any action to cause his accomplice to get hurt, hence he should not be charged with his death. Now if he had forced his friend to participate in the robbery, e.g. by blackmail, that would be a different matter.

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Re: 16 Year old charged with murder after cop shoots his fri

Postby Dream » Sun May 29, 2011 12:11 pm UTC

Vash wrote:Why do you take for granted that this 16-year-old knew it was wrong at all?

This here is the critical point, that a lot of people are missing. Go to a school in a poor area and you'll find sixteen year old drug dealers and car thieves and robbers and general delinquents sitting in class behaving themselves, when they'd much rather be out stealing and doing drugs, and when they actively hate the classes they are in. The only things holding them there are the verbal authority of a single teacher vs. thirty to forty kids, and the peer pressure of other kids trying to learn. It's because they're kids, and walking out of the room and never coming back just isn't allowed, so it isn't done.

Kids are impressionable. It takes very, very little to influence them. A sensible kid will sometimes be found playing on the train tracks, because that's what their mates are up to. An angry, violent kid will stay quiet through school because a teacher is watching, but smash up someone's car over nothing on the way home. It is widely understood that influences supercede morals for kids, and juvenile law exists because therefore the foundation of adult law, personal accountability, is fuzzy for them.

So even if these kids knew full well what they were doing was wrong, they shouldn't be tried as adults. Knowing right from wrong is not the difference between adult and minor justice.
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Re: 16 Year old charged with murder after cop shoots his fri

Postby sourmìlk » Sun May 29, 2011 1:13 pm UTC

Dream wrote:So even if these kids knew full well what they were doing was wrong, they shouldn't be tried as adults. Knowing right from wrong is not the difference between adult and minor justice.


So what is then, susceptibility to peer pressure? I don't see why that should matter if the 16-year-old knows what he's doing is wrong. Teenagers have the ability to overcome peer pressure.
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Re: 16 Year old charged with murder after cop shoots his fri

Postby Robot_Raptor » Sun May 29, 2011 2:05 pm UTC

sourmìlk wrote:
Dream wrote:So even if these kids knew full well what they were doing was wrong, they shouldn't be tried as adults. Knowing right from wrong is not the difference between adult and minor justice.


So what is then, susceptibility to peer pressure? I don't see why that should matter if the 16-year-old knows what he's doing is wrong. Teenagers have the ability to overcome peer pressure.


You'll find that while you might have that ability, a significant chunk of your peers don't.

Point being that we don't choose out measures to benefit the best of the group but to benefit the group as a whole. Due to both the way that the juvie and adult criminal systems work, and the simple fact that kids are more mentally malleable, recidivism is much lower in children tried via the juvenile system than it is for children tried via the adult system.

Frankly, the primary goal of our justice system should be rehabilitation before punishment, and the juvenile system gives us a chance to do that, whereas the adult system really doesn't.

The point here is that your age group can be fixed, (though I do believe that of every age group, a lot of others don't) and dropping that chance in order to pad a resume or something equally banal is a travesty.

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Re: 16 Year old charged with murder after cop shoots his fri

Postby sourmìlk » Sun May 29, 2011 2:11 pm UTC

That begs the question though: is there less recidivism in adolescents tried via the juvenile system because the juvenile system is more conducive to recovery, or because it's more fit to adolescents?
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Re: 16 Year old charged with murder after cop shoots his fri

Postby Dream » Sun May 29, 2011 3:21 pm UTC

The former because the latter?

Anyway, you may see yourself as being mature and sensible enough in your decision making that your morality trumps your impressionability in defining your decisions. That doesn't at all mean that ten years from now you won't be even less impressionable than you are now. The same won't be true between the years of 26 and 36. The difference is what's important. Teenagers are much more impressionable than adults, and we look at their motivations and decisions differently because of the difference, not because of some absolute level of maturity.
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