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16 Year old charged with murder after cop shoots his friend

Posted: Fri May 27, 2011 10:27 pm UTC
by RockoTDF
This is just a bizarre law.

A 16-year-old boy has been charged with murder after a Chicago police officer fatally shot his 15-year-old friend Wednesday on the South Side.

Brandon Ross and his friend Tatioun Williams allegedly robbed a man at gunpoint in the 7000 block of South Cregier Avenue Wednesday evening, and were confronted by police officers a short time later, the Chicago Tribune reports.

When the officers told the teens to stop, Williams, who was holding the gun, allegedly turned in the officer's direction, Fox Chicago reports. Fearing for her life, the officer shot the 15-year-old, killing him.

"They could have taken him to jail, they could have done anything but taken his life," Williams' mother told the Tribune Thursday.

Under state law, police can charge someone with murder when an accomplice is killed during the commission of a crime. Even though Ross didn't pull the trigger, he was charged as an adult with murder and armed robbery. He was ordered held on $900,000 bail Friday.

The teens allegedly took a wallet and iPod from a 27-year-old man before the shooting.


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/05/2 ... 68289.html

Re: 16 Year old charged with murder after cop shoots his fri

Posted: Fri May 27, 2011 11:04 pm UTC
by Vash
Horrible. I also don't understand why one would try teenagers as adults, ever.

Re: 16 Year old charged with murder after cop shoots his fri

Posted: Fri May 27, 2011 11:13 pm UTC
by Radical_Initiator
Vash wrote:Horrible. I also don't understand why one would try teenagers as adults, ever.


Because kids these days don't understand rabble rabble rabble, and back in my day, adults rabble rabble teach them with a cane! rabble rabble 3 quartz of Jack rabble rabble?

BTW, way to go Illinois. Illinois: where everyone in state work has to take an ethics exam, yet our governors routinely get sent to prison.

Re: 16 Year old charged with murder after cop shoots his fri

Posted: Fri May 27, 2011 11:17 pm UTC
by LtNOWIS
Vash wrote:Horrible. I also don't understand why one would try teenagers as adults, ever.

Technically, you can be a teenager and a legal adult.

/pedantic nitpickery

Re: 16 Year old charged with murder after cop shoots his fri

Posted: Fri May 27, 2011 11:18 pm UTC
by Silas
I'm curious how long after the robbery this shooting happened. Because I don't think gets-killed-in-a-shootout-when-a-cop-tries-to-arrest-him is intimately enough connected with the original crime for the felony murder rule to apply.

Re: 16 Year old charged with murder after cop shoots his fri

Posted: Fri May 27, 2011 11:24 pm UTC
by LtNOWIS
This goes to show that unlike in some TV shows and movies, you can't "shoot a wound." Even a shot to the upper shoulder can be lethal.

Silas wrote:I'm curious how long after the robbery this shooting happened. Because I don't think gets-killed-in-a-shootout-when-a-cop-tries-to-arrest-him is intimately enough connected with the original crime for the felony murder rule to apply.

It looks like they were in the same block. The victim said the response was speedy.

Anyways, I hope he gets his iPod and credit cards back.

Re: 16 Year old charged with murder after cop shoots his fri

Posted: Fri May 27, 2011 11:32 pm UTC
by Glass Fractal
I had to read that three times to figure out the reasoning behind the law. I don't see how it wouldn't be manslaughter, though.

Any word on what happened with the cop?

Re: 16 Year old charged with murder after cop shoots his fri

Posted: Fri May 27, 2011 11:44 pm UTC
by LtNOWIS
There'll be an automatic investigation by the Independent Police Review Authority. Beyond that, no word; this is still very early in the process. I think officers involved in shootings are automatically suspended with pay, but I don't have an actual source for that.

Re: 16 Year old charged with murder after cop shoots his fri

Posted: Fri May 27, 2011 11:58 pm UTC
by buddy431
I hate laws like this. You should prosecute someone for the crimes he actually commited, not other BAD THINGSTM that happen as a result of their crime. I feel pretty much the same way about charging drug dealers with murder when one of their customers dies of an overdose - charge him for the crime of selling dangerous drugs, but don't charge him because one of his customers was unlucky enough to die.

Re: 16 Year old charged with murder after cop shoots his fri

Posted: Sat May 28, 2011 12:10 am UTC
by CorruptUser
buddy431 wrote:I hate laws like this. You should prosecute someone for the crimes he actually commited, not other BAD THINGSTM that happen as a result of their crime. I feel pretty much the same way about charging drug dealers with murder when one of their customers dies of an overdose - charge him for the crime of selling dangerous drugs, but don't charge him because one of his customers was unlucky enough to die.


So when your car crashes due to a defect, you should only be able to sue for being sold a defective car, not a car that left you with horrible recurring nightmares of your wife and child's innards strewn about the wreckage the afternoon you lost your ability to walk?


But I do understand where you are coming from. Similarly, I would like to see an end to double convictions; if you illegally gamble on a boat, you can be convicted of two crimes, "illegal gambling" and "illegal gambling on a boat". Even though "illegal gambling on a boat" by definition includes "illegal gambling", you can still be convicted of both.

Re: 16 Year old charged with murder after cop shoots his fri

Posted: Sat May 28, 2011 12:13 am UTC
by buddy431
CorruptUser wrote:
buddy431 wrote:I hate laws like this. You should prosecute someone for the crimes he actually commited, not other BAD THINGSTM that happen as a result of their crime. I feel pretty much the same way about charging drug dealers with murder when one of their customers dies of an overdose - charge him for the crime of selling dangerous drugs, but don't charge him because one of his customers was unlucky enough to die.


So when your car crashes due to a defect, you should only be able to sue for being sold a defective car, not a car that left you with horrible recurring nightmares of your wife and child's innards strewn about the wreckage the afternoon you lost your ability to walk?


That's civil law. From a criminal perspective, I believe that the person who sold dangerous cars should be charged for selling dangerous cars. Not because one of his dangerous cars killed someone.

Re: 16 Year old charged with murder after cop shoots his fri

Posted: Sat May 28, 2011 12:16 am UTC
by mike-l
Silas wrote:I'm curious how long after the robbery this shooting happened. Because I don't think gets-killed-in-a-shootout-when-a-cop-tries-to-arrest-him is intimately enough connected with the original crime for the felony murder rule to apply.

Isn't aiming a firearm at a police officer a felony in itself?

Odd law, but I'm having trouble finding sympathy for the accused. He did something really dumb and dangerous, and it caused someone to die. While I'm not sure that he should be legally responsible, he certainly bears a great deal of the moral blame.

Charging him as an adult seems too much though. It certainly sounds like a case of a kid getting in over his head

Re: 16 Year old charged with murder after cop shoots his fri

Posted: Sat May 28, 2011 12:27 am UTC
by buddy431
mike-l wrote:
Silas wrote:I'm curious how long after the robbery this shooting happened. Because I don't think gets-killed-in-a-shootout-when-a-cop-tries-to-arrest-him is intimately enough connected with the original crime for the felony murder rule to apply.

Isn't aiming a firearm at a police officer a felony in itself?

Odd law, but I'm having trouble finding sympathy for the accused. He did something really dumb and dangerous, and it caused someone to die. While I'm not sure that he should be legally responsible, he certainly bears a great deal of the moral blame.

Charging him as an adult seems too much though. It certainly sounds like a case of a kid getting in over his head


The kid who aimed at the police officer was the one who was killed, not the one charged with murder. The accused did something really stupid, I agree - he participated in an armed robbery. He did not aim a gun at police, nor did he cause his friend to. The murder charge is completely stupid in this case.

Re: 16 Year old charged with murder after cop shoots his fri

Posted: Sat May 28, 2011 12:30 am UTC
by mike-l
buddy431 wrote:
mike-l wrote:
Silas wrote:I'm curious how long after the robbery this shooting happened. Because I don't think gets-killed-in-a-shootout-when-a-cop-tries-to-arrest-him is intimately enough connected with the original crime for the felony murder rule to apply.

Isn't aiming a firearm at a police officer a felony in itself?

Odd law, but I'm having trouble finding sympathy for the accused. He did something really dumb and dangerous, and it caused someone to die. While I'm not sure that he should be legally responsible, he certainly bears a great deal of the moral blame.

Charging him as an adult seems too much though. It certainly sounds like a case of a kid getting in over his head


The kid who aimed at the police officer was the one who was killed, not the one charged with murder. The accused did something really stupid, I agree - he participated in an armed robbery. He did not aim a gun at police, nor did he cause his friend to. The murder charge is completely stupid in this case.


Quite right, I misread. In that case I agree the murder charge is ridiculous unless the accused did something aggressive towards the police that wasn't mentioned in the story

Re: 16 Year old charged with murder after cop shoots his fri

Posted: Sat May 28, 2011 12:38 am UTC
by Jahoclave
Radical_Initiator wrote:
Vash wrote:Horrible. I also don't understand why one would try teenagers as adults, ever.


Because kids these days don't understand rabble rabble rabble, and back in my day, adults rabble rabble teach them with a cane! rabble rabble 3 quartz of Jack rabble rabble?

BTW, way to go Illinois. Illinois: where everyone in state work has to take an ethics exam, yet our governors routinely get sent to prison.

Yeah, I often find myself shocked when I hear of an Illinois governor--my first thought being, "I thought he was already in jail."

And yeah, I could see this prosecution of murder being more apt per the law if he had been the one pointing his gun at the officer and his friend had been fatally wounded, but he was not the cause of the officer to fire.

Re: 16 Year old charged with murder after cop shoots his fri

Posted: Sat May 28, 2011 12:53 am UTC
by Tirian
Jahoclave wrote:And yeah, I could see this prosecution of murder being more apt per the law if he had been the one pointing his gun at the officer and his friend had been fatally wounded, but he was not the cause of the officer to fire.


Heck, you could try the kid in juvie and try to steer him right if you're going to be that way about it. But I suppose an easy murder conviction looks better on everyone else's resume.

Re: 16 Year old charged with murder after cop shoots his fri

Posted: Sat May 28, 2011 12:59 am UTC
by Jahoclave
Tirian wrote:
Jahoclave wrote:And yeah, I could see this prosecution of murder being more apt per the law if he had been the one pointing his gun at the officer and his friend had been fatally wounded, but he was not the cause of the officer to fire.


Heck, you could try the kid in juvie and try to steer him right if you're going to be that way about it. But I suppose an easy murder conviction looks better on everyone else's resume.

Well everybody wants to seem strong on crime and defense. Because pointing out our massive budgets in those areas and how they're negatively affecting America means you're a wimp that's pro-crime and terrorism instead of when you're against any other government spending meaning you're practicing fiscal sanity.

The law is still bullshit, but even if we grant the law's just existence, it's application here doesn't even seem correctly done.

Edit: fixed a slightly misogynist idiomatic phrase.

Re: 16 Year old charged with murder after cop shoots his fri

Posted: Sat May 28, 2011 2:13 am UTC
by Aetius
Maybe I'm going against the tide here, but if things happened as the officer says they did, the prosecution makes sense. It's a little odd because the death he's being charged with was a co-conspirator in the felony, but a death still resulted from a felony he took active part in.

Re: 16 Year old charged with murder after cop shoots his fri

Posted: Sat May 28, 2011 3:16 am UTC
by Sunshine!
Minor bit of pedantry, but the teen that was shot dead never actually aimed his gun at the police. Not saying that the shooting wasn't justified, just that the officer never claimed she was actually aimed at.

Re: 16 Year old charged with murder after cop shoots his fri

Posted: Sat May 28, 2011 4:59 am UTC
by CorruptUser
Aetius wrote:Maybe I'm going against the tide here, but if things happened as the officer says they did, the prosecution makes sense. It's a little odd because the death he's being charged with was a co-conspirator in the felony, but a death still resulted from a felony he took active part in.


Except this wasn't a death during the committing of a felony; this was a death after the felony was committed. Otherwise you could argue the butterfly effect and charge him for half the deaths for the next decade.

Re: 16 Year old charged with murder after cop shoots his fri

Posted: Sat May 28, 2011 5:00 am UTC
by Malice
Aetius wrote:Maybe I'm going against the tide here, but if things happened as the officer says they did, the prosecution makes sense. It's a little odd because the death he's being charged with was a co-conspirator in the felony, but a death still resulted from a felony he took active part in.


The oddity isn't that the victim was a co-conspirator--that's totally normal. If a friend and I burn down a building and my friend gets hit on the head with flaming wood and dies, I should get charged with that, it's perfectly reasonable under the law.

The oddity is that the death happened as a result of the police action, not the robbery. The argument that they're putting across here is tenuous at best.

Re: 16 Year old charged with murder after cop shoots his fri

Posted: Sat May 28, 2011 6:58 am UTC
by skeptical scientist
mike-l wrote:Odd law, but I'm having trouble finding sympathy for the accused. He did something really dumb and dangerous, and it caused someone to die. While I'm not sure that he should be legally responsible, he certainly bears a great deal of the moral blame.

I have no problem with the felony murder rule for exactly this reason.

Sunshine! wrote:Minor bit of pedantry, but the teen that was shot dead never actually aimed his gun at the police. Not saying that the shooting wasn't justified, just that the officer never claimed she was actually aimed at.

If the officer involved waits for the gun to be aimed at him/her, then the officer has a fairly good chance of being shot as well. If the suspect is wielding a gun, an officer shooting the suspect is unfortunate, but understandable.

Re: 16 Year old charged with murder after cop shoots his fri

Posted: Sat May 28, 2011 7:26 am UTC
by Bright Shadows
skeptical scientist wrote:
mike-l wrote:Odd law, but I'm having trouble finding sympathy for the accused. He did something really dumb and dangerous, and it caused someone to die. While I'm not sure that he should be legally responsible, he certainly bears a great deal of the moral blame.

I have no problem with the felony murder rule for exactly this reason.

The reason that the quoted later retracted because of misreading? It isn't a very good reason, tbqh, after you account for the mistake. Committing armed robbery and having your partner get shot is not the same as shooting your partner.

This whole story is so sad. What a waste of 2 lives, and for what? An iPod?

Re: 16 Year old charged with murder after cop shoots his fri

Posted: Sat May 28, 2011 7:43 am UTC
by skeptical scientist
Bright Shadows wrote:
I have no problem with the felony murder rule for exactly this reason.

The reason that the quoted later retracted because of misreading? It isn't a very good reason, tbqh, after you account for the mistake. Committing armed robbery and having your partner get shot is not the same as shooting your partner.

I said I have no problem with the rule.

I don't know enough about the facts of this case to decide one way or the other. That's why we have trials and juries. Committing armed robbery is really dumb and dangerous, and his partner got killed as a result. I don't think it's unreasonable to bring the case to trial.

Re: 16 Year old charged with murder after cop shoots his fri

Posted: Sat May 28, 2011 7:56 am UTC
by BlackSails
Felony murder rules makes perfectly good sense, and this is not an unanticipated outcome.

Re: 16 Year old charged with murder after cop shoots his fri

Posted: Sat May 28, 2011 8:23 am UTC
by Vash
skeptical scientist wrote:I have no problem with the felony murder rule for exactly this reason.


So, his friend died, he is going to jail, and that's not enough? Also, this may not apply to you, but why try non-adults as adults? Why even have different penalties in the first place then?

Armored robbery is a horrible crime to be the victim of, but I can't see having no sympathy for a 16 year old that makes a stupid decision. The reason we have punishment in the first place is because it is assumed to be effective and purposeful, as well as act as a deterrent. So, how are we going to deter 16 year olds from having undeveloped brains that make stupid decisions? How is punishment going to modify the behavior of this 16 year old?

Aside from that, it's logically obvious that the crimes that person are guilty of are participating in the endangerment of another, participating in the threatening of the police officer and robbery victim, theft, and perhaps attempted assault or murder (or collusion in the attempt). Even if that person had a gun and shot the police officer, that would be assault with a deadly weapon, or attempted murder, depending on the circumstances. How could this possibly be correct? The reason we have gradation of crimes in the first place is so that we don't impose cruel and unusual punishments. The punishment is supposed to fit the crime. Have we forgotten this entirely?

Re: 16 Year old charged with murder after cop shoots his fri

Posted: Sat May 28, 2011 9:08 am UTC
by skeptical scientist
Vash wrote:It's logically obvious that the crimes that person are guilty of are participating in the endangerment of another, participating in the threatening of the police officer and robbery victim, theft, and perhaps attempted assault or murder (or collusion in the attempt). Even if that person had a gun and shot the police officer, that would be assault with a deadly weapon, or attempted murder, depending on the circumstances. How could this possibly be correct? The reason we have gradation of crimes in the first place is so that we don't impose cruel and unusual punishments. The punishment is supposed to fit the crime. Have we forgotten this entirely?

When you choose to commit a crime which has a significant chance of ending with someone's death, and someone dies, I don't think it's unreasonable to call it murder. That is the basis for the felony murder rule, and I think it's a legitimate one. Whether it should apply in this case? That's for a jury to decide.

So, his friend died, he is going to jail, and that's not enough?

You act like he's going to spend the rest of his life in prison, when a) he hasn't even been convicted of anything yet, and b) if he is convicted under the felony murder rule (which is far from certain), we don't know what the penalty will be.

Also, this may not apply to you, but why try non-adults as adults? Why even have different penalties in the first place then?

I really don't know enough about the differences between adult and juvenile justice to know what the pros and cons are of trying someone in the adult vs. the juvenile justice system. That said, 16 is close enough to legal adulthood that I don't find it unreasonable, as I suspect there's not a whole lot of difference between a 16-year-old committing an armed robbery and an 18-year-old committing an armed robbery.

So, how are we going to deter 16 year olds from having undeveloped brains that make stupid decisions? How is punishment going to modify the behavior of this 16 year old?

16-year-olds can be responsible for their actions. Some degree of leniency is reasonable, but I'm not sure if it should extend to armed robbery, particularly when the outcome was someone's death. As a 16-year-old, I was perfectly capable of telling right from wrong, and predicting likely outcomes of actions I chose to take. I may have been hotheaded enough to act rashly when put in difficult and emotional situations, and some degree of leniency would be reasonable if, say, I got into a fight because of that. But armed robbery requires choosing to obtain a firearm (which is illegal for a minor), choosing to find a victim, and choosing to threaten that victim, at gunpoint, for their money, all of which are done outside of any emotional situation that can cause a youth to lose control. At 16 years, I think it is reasonable to treat someone committing that crime the same way you would treat an adult, holding them fully responsible for all the consequences (including the felony murder rule, if the crime leads to someone's death).

Were I on the jury, I'm not sure whether I would find the kid guilty of murder under the felony murder rule. I would undoubtedly be more inclined to leniency on the basis of the accused's age. But I wouldn't rule it out solely on the basis of age either, and would want to hear testimony on both sides before making up my mind.

Re: 16 Year old charged with murder after cop shoots his fri

Posted: Sat May 28, 2011 9:36 am UTC
by Goplat
Given our broken justice system, a murder charge is the way to maximize the time before he's released and allowed to commit more armed robberies. The police are just being pragmatic.

Re: 16 Year old charged with murder after cop shoots his fri

Posted: Sat May 28, 2011 10:11 am UTC
by sourmìlk
As a 16 year old, I'm kind of offended by the amount of patronization that's going around here. At my age, should we really not know better than to commit armed robbery and point a gun at a cop? Although teenagers are arguably more prone to making this kind of stupid decision, I don't think they grasped the potential consequences of their actions any less than an adult, and if they did, the shouldn't have. I am totally okay with somebody my age being tried as an adult for armed robbery and murder: I wouldn't expect anything less for myself.

Re: 16 Year old charged with murder after cop shoots his fri

Posted: Sat May 28, 2011 11:08 am UTC
by skeptical scientist
sourmìlk wrote:As a 16 year old, I'm kind of offended by the amount of patronization that's going around here.

Can't say that I blame you, although I hope you didn't find my posts patronizing.

Re: 16 Year old charged with murder after cop shoots his fri

Posted: Sat May 28, 2011 11:14 am UTC
by sourmìlk
skeptical scientist wrote:
sourmìlk wrote:As a 16 year old, I'm kind of offended by the amount of patronization that's going around here.

Can't say that I blame you, although I hope you didn't find my posts patronizing.

No, you generally said that 16 year olds should have the mental capacity to make a decision at least as smart as "how about I not commit armed robbery today"

Re: 16 Year old charged with murder after cop shoots his fri

Posted: Sat May 28, 2011 11:38 am UTC
by Gellert1984
sourmìlk wrote:No, you generally said that 16 year olds should have the mental capacity to make a decision at least as smart as "how about I not commit armed robbery today"


My issue with trying a 16 year old for murder because he clearly has the mental faculties to understand that murder is wrong is that were the same person to have sex it would be statutory rape (in some states adjust age as appropriate for where you live) because they don't have the mental faculties to understand what they're doing. 'Cos y'know teenagers are dumb, unless they're scary, then we should just lock them up.

I really hate inconsistant thinking like this.

Re: 16 Year old charged with murder after cop shoots his fri

Posted: Sat May 28, 2011 11:45 am UTC
by sourmìlk
Gellert1984 wrote:
sourmìlk wrote:No, you generally said that 16 year olds should have the mental capacity to make a decision at least as smart as "how about I not commit armed robbery today"


My issue with trying a 16 year old for murder because he clearly has the mental faculties to understand that murder is wrong is that were the same person to have sex it would be statutory rape (in some states adjust age as appropriate for where you live) because they don't have the mental faculties to understand what they're doing. 'Cos y'know teenagers are dumb, unless they're scary, then we should just lock them up.

I really hate inconsistant thinking like this.


Right, but the way to solve that problem is to make it so that isn't statutory rape, not to try them as children for murder.

Re: 16 Year old charged with murder after cop shoots his fri

Posted: Sat May 28, 2011 11:59 am UTC
by skeptical scientist
Gellert1984 wrote:My issue with trying a 16 year old for murder because he clearly has the mental faculties to understand that murder is wrong is that were the same person to have sex it would be statutory rape (in some states adjust age as appropriate for where you live) because they don't have the mental faculties to understand what they're doing. 'Cos y'know teenagers are dumb, unless they're scary, then we should just lock them up.

That's a gross oversimplification. Statutory rape laws exist because adults are capable of exploiting positions of power and manipulating youth. It's not that teenagers are dumb or not responsible for their own actions, it's just that they are more vulnerable than adults to being victimized, and it's proper for the law to protect them against such mistreatment, and penalize adults who take advantage of them. But protecting youth from exploitation by adults is one thing, and protecting them from having to face the consequences of their own bad decisions when they clearly knew better is something else entirely.

sourmìlk wrote:Right, but the way to solve that problem is to make it so that isn't statutory rape, not to try them as children for murder.

Well, in most states (30 of 50) and in D.C., the age of consent is 16, so it wouldn't be. But I would have pretty serious issues with a 30 year old having sex with a 16 year old, regardless. (If a 17 year old is having sex with a 16 year old, I don't see a problem, as long as the sex is consensual and safe.)

Re: 16 Year old charged with murder after cop shoots his fri

Posted: Sat May 28, 2011 1:20 pm UTC
by Tirian
sourmìlk wrote:As a 16 year old, I'm kind of offended by the amount of patronization that's going around here. At my age, should we really not know better than to commit armed robbery and point a gun at a cop? Although teenagers are arguably more prone to making this kind of stupid decision, I don't think they grasped the potential consequences of their actions any less than an adult, and if they did, the shouldn't have. I am totally okay with somebody my age being tried as an adult for armed robbery and murder: I wouldn't expect anything less for myself.


Juvenile justice is about more than reduced capacity. I agree that we are within our rights to throw Brandon Ross into adult jail and that he deserves those consequences. But we also have the option to take this person whose social and moral development are not yet complete and channel them in a different direction.

Brandon Ross just watched his friend die as a result of crappy choices, and we can at least try to turn that into a transformative moment. I work with some people who have had checkered childhoods, and even if they're not pillars of the community at least they're contributing to society in both a social and economic sense. Or we can make the cold-hearted decision that Ross is incorrigible and sentence him to twenty to life in adult prison. You do that, it's a certainty that he'll cost society more than he'll ever produce, and if you sentence him to anything less than life then you'll have a hardened criminal when you do release him. And that is our choice to make.

Re: 16 Year old charged with murder after cop shoots his fri

Posted: Sat May 28, 2011 1:29 pm UTC
by LtNOWIS
Vash wrote:[
Armored robbery is a horrible crime to be the victim of, but I can't see having no sympathy for a 16 year old that makes a stupid decision.

The kid's got a number of prior offenses and was already facing prosecution for more at the time. It's not a single bad decision.

buddy431 wrote:The kid who aimed at the police officer was the one who was killed, not the one charged with murder. The accused did something really stupid, I agree - he participated in an armed robbery. He did not aim a gun at police, nor did he cause his friend to. The murder charge is completely stupid in this case.

Well, it's probably just a high "starting position" as they negotiate a plea deal.

But then, that's arguably another problem altogether.

Re: 16 Year old charged with murder after cop shoots his fri

Posted: Sat May 28, 2011 1:35 pm UTC
by sourmìlk
LtNOWIS wrote:
Vash wrote:[
Armored robbery is a horrible crime to be the victim of, but I can't see having no sympathy for a 16 year old that makes a stupid decision.

The kid's got a number of prior offenses and was already facing prosecution for more at the time. It's not a single bad decision.


Not only that, but it's demeaning to the victim to call this a "stupid decision." It wasn't, it was a crime. Yes, I know that 16 year olds generally do not have fully developed morality or intelligence, but they should have the necessary moral sense and intelligence to know that armed robbery is a bad thing.

Re: 16 Year old charged with murder after cop shoots his fri

Posted: Sat May 28, 2011 4:24 pm UTC
by engr
There was recently a case in Israel when a group of young people basically beat (or cut) a man to death. The court could not come to a conclusion which defendant's action caused death, and Israel has no felony murder law, so no one of them was charged with murder. They were only punished for causing bodily injuries and will probably get out of prison soon.
These are the kind of situations that make felony murder legislation useful.

Re: 16 Year old charged with murder after cop shoots his fri

Posted: Sat May 28, 2011 4:37 pm UTC
by johnny_7713
engr wrote:There was recently a case in Israel when a group of young people basically beat (or cut) a man to death. The court could not come to a conclusion which defendant's action caused death, and Israel has no felony murder law, so no one of them was charged with murder. They were only punished for causing bodily injuries and will probably get out of prison soon.
These are the kind of situations that make felony murder legislation useful.


I agree with you based on the situation you give. However that is in no way comparable to the situation described in the OP. A closer analogy would be if I and a friend decide to burgle a house using a ladder. During the burglary my friend slips off the ladder, breaks his neck and dies. Does that make me guilty of murder, as I was his accomplice? According to the interpretation of felony murder given in the OP, the answer would be yes, whereas I would contend that morally the answer should be no.

Re: 16 Year old charged with murder after cop shoots his fri

Posted: Sat May 28, 2011 4:40 pm UTC
by RockoTDF
I'm not sure how we can call this murder. Yes, the kid was indirectly responsible for the death. It is at worst involuntary manslaughter.

It makes no sense that a drunk driver can kill someone and get manslaughter for a decision that is a more "direct", yet someone else shot this kid and he has to get murder for it.

The whole thing is an entire slap in the face to punishment fitting the crime, and I hope that some level of Supreme Court strikes it down as unconstitutional. To be honest, it makes almost as much sense as arresting drug users for murder because of the actions of the cartels that sell the drugs.